WYATT: Dearest Puranjana dasa, you have erased some of the words and the word ritvik and cut and join the sentence on the above comment.
[PADA: Wyatt you are saying that Srila Prabhupada wanted no more initiations to go on, so there would be no more deity worship. Why are you saying he wanted the deity worship to stop?]
We notice you do this a lot. Why?
[PADA: Because you have to answer our question first of all, why are you saying we need to have no more initiations so the deity worship has to be stopped all over ISKCON? Who ordered you to say the deities will no longer have initiated poojaris? Where does Srila Prabhupada say the deity worship will be stopped?]
IIs it because what we say can damage your bogus post samadhi ritvik initiation program?
[PADA: You tell us the whole deity program of Srila Prabhupada has to be stopped because there will no longer be any initiated disciples, you are the person causing damage, you want the entire deity program established by Srila Prabhupada to stop. Good job, you have ruined or destroyed it all over the place, by saying you no longer want any initiated poojaris! Why do you want to stop the worship of God, by getting rid of the worshipers?
The deity will be some sort of museum pieces with no poojaris. Why do you want to stop the worship of the deity of Lord Krishna? You have to answer our questions first, and you never do. That is why we cut of the rest of your message, because its not relevant to the topic at hand, who authorized Wyatt to halt the worship of Krishna?
And why does he want to halt the worship of Krishna, is that not what Kamsa was doing? Stay on topic, answer the points at hand, you say you want no more initiated brahmanas, which is required for deity wotship, because you want to stop the worship of the deity. Who authorized you to halt the worship of Krishna? Thats what we need to know first of all. And yes, if you want to stop the worship of the deity, that means you think Krishna is a stone idol, He does not require any worship, you are making Krishna into a stone rather than a person who needs people to perform His worship. Wyatt, you are worse than the Christians, you are a smarta brahmana, you are saying that we cannot have initiations and deity worship, that is what they say. ys pd
[PADA NOTE: This problem is going on all over ISKCON. The GBC has stopped the Srila Prabhupada initiation process, thus there is no longer enough initiated poojaris. In some temples the GBC has had to import Bengalis and other foreigners to do the pooja. And we had reports that some of these Bengalis were then going out to get coffee and doughnuts right after mangal arotike every day, where they were "chatting it up" with the attractive young women waitresses at the coffee shop, while munching doughnuts. Why does the GBC / Wyatt program have no process to continue the worship of the deity, by halting the initiations process? Demons have always wanted to halt the worship of Krishna, that's what they do all the time. ys pd]
[PADA: Wyatt you are saying that Srila Prabhupada wanted no more initiations to go on, so there would be no more deity worship. Why are you saying he wanted the deity worship to stop?]
We notice you do this a lot. Why?
[PADA: Because you have to answer our question first of all, why are you saying we need to have no more initiations so the deity worship has to be stopped all over ISKCON? Who ordered you to say the deities will no longer have initiated poojaris? Where does Srila Prabhupada say the deity worship will be stopped?]
IIs it because what we say can damage your bogus post samadhi ritvik initiation program?
[PADA: You tell us the whole deity program of Srila Prabhupada has to be stopped because there will no longer be any initiated disciples, you are the person causing damage, you want the entire deity program established by Srila Prabhupada to stop. Good job, you have ruined or destroyed it all over the place, by saying you no longer want any initiated poojaris! Why do you want to stop the worship of God, by getting rid of the worshipers?
The deity will be some sort of museum pieces with no poojaris. Why do you want to stop the worship of the deity of Lord Krishna? You have to answer our questions first, and you never do. That is why we cut of the rest of your message, because its not relevant to the topic at hand, who authorized Wyatt to halt the worship of Krishna?
And why does he want to halt the worship of Krishna, is that not what Kamsa was doing? Stay on topic, answer the points at hand, you say you want no more initiated brahmanas, which is required for deity wotship, because you want to stop the worship of the deity. Who authorized you to halt the worship of Krishna? Thats what we need to know first of all. And yes, if you want to stop the worship of the deity, that means you think Krishna is a stone idol, He does not require any worship, you are making Krishna into a stone rather than a person who needs people to perform His worship. Wyatt, you are worse than the Christians, you are a smarta brahmana, you are saying that we cannot have initiations and deity worship, that is what they say. ys pd
[PADA NOTE: This problem is going on all over ISKCON. The GBC has stopped the Srila Prabhupada initiation process, thus there is no longer enough initiated poojaris. In some temples the GBC has had to import Bengalis and other foreigners to do the pooja. And we had reports that some of these Bengalis were then going out to get coffee and doughnuts right after mangal arotike every day, where they were "chatting it up" with the attractive young women waitresses at the coffee shop, while munching doughnuts. Why does the GBC / Wyatt program have no process to continue the worship of the deity, by halting the initiations process? Demons have always wanted to halt the worship of Krishna, that's what they do all the time. ys pd]
PADA: Wyatt, you keep saying you want the deity worship to be stopped by not having any initiated brahmanas to do the pooja. That's not our angry response, its a common sense question, why do you want to stop the deity worship?
ReplyDeleteAnd your program now has got some Bengalis who go to coffee shops and sometimes smoke beedis doing the job, and your folks are lucky to even have them, otherwise no one would care for the deity at all.
You said you do not want any other poojaris anymore, because you want none more initiated, so you want to stop the entire deity program by not having poojaris. Why do you want to stop the worship of God? Just answer the question for a change? You said, there will be no more initiated brahmanas, that means, you want to shut down the Krishna temples worship program and have no pooja and etc anymore. Why do you want to stop Krishna from being worshiped? Quit prevaricating and answer, please! People want to know why you want that stopped? You keep failing the answer the questions you yourself raised. ys pd
Making headway with Wyatt, wants no more deity worship. What else is new?
ReplyDeleteWyatt didn't say what you are saying.
ReplyDelete[PADA: Wyatt you said repeatedly, like a broken record, that there is no longer any diksha / brahmana initiation system current, and we should stop that process because you said repeatedly, its bogus for anyone to take diksha / brahmana initiation now. Srila Prabhupada said we need initiated brahmanas for the pooja and he said that hundreds of times. You said, now we are going to cancel that initiation process, and that means, we have no more brahmana initiations / poojaris.]
*** As usual it is your your foolish and nonsense interpretation of what Wyatt said. Foolish and nonsense interpretation of facts are the common characteristics of the bogus ritviks. And because Wyatt is usually right and has become a pain in the neck for these foolish ritviks our dear puranjana dasa has decided to character assassinate Wyatt. That's his usual modus operandi. When the going gets tough use the character assassination technique. Wyatt is right about you on this, ain't he, Puranjana dasa?
[PADA: This is nothing about your character at all. Its a siddhanta question. You said that you wanted us to stop having brahmana initiations. We had to translate what you really said, That means you want that there will be no more poojaris. After saying about 1,000 times to us that we need to stop our initiations, now you say, thats not what you said? Wyatt, we read what you said 1,000 times already. you said you oppose our giving initiations, that means you want no brahmanas to do the pooja. Otherwise, explain yourself? Did you / or did you not / say we cannot have any further initiations? We say, you did say that, because the evidence is, you said that over and over and over and over and over. Please do not deny what you said now that we are asking, why are you saying that? Just explain why you are saying that. Or are you now denying that? And if you are denying what was said before, then, what are you saying now? Just tell us and get it over with. ys pd]
You are right on PADA. Our ISKCON temple here has maybe few poojarees left, rest disappeared long time ago. Few old Prabhupada disciples and few Gaudiya Matha disciples. Its all we got here. One of them is gay. He has all kind of issues, but they have to keep him. There is no one else. One old lady is always sick. Can barely walk. Has to use her walking cane on the altar. Barely able to do pooja now. The deity dress is sometime messy and falls off. Since they do not fix it right. And now Wyatt wants this to be even more worse. No more initiated poojarees? That means he wants it worse for Krishna. Then we have nobody left. Wyatt wants Krishna to have no one serving? No one will dress and take care for Krishna? Then one day no one will care for Wyatt. None will care for dressing him too. He will have that karma that none takes care of him either. This is mean behavior towards Krishna. We want none left to service His altars. Already we have none left for service. No one will be serving them one day. They will have no services for them. Since they want Krishna to have no services. What kind of devotee has none serving Krishna? You are right PADA, these are not devotees. And the old lady with a cane is having pains from her serving. Thanks Wyatt, you big mean bully!
ReplyDeleteWhoosh! This poster is speaks "as it is." People who don't want Krishna to be dressed, and have no brahmanas cooking for Krishna, they easily take birth in the Africa Sahara desert. There they are born like those skinny naked people with no clothes, no food, no water, no nothing. They want Krishna to be naked and have nothing to eat, but they just end up naked and nothing to eat themself. That is the real conclusion. They do not know this but taking away Krishna's clothes and food, takes away from themself. They do not understand the laws of Krishna. Taking away from Krishna takes away from yourself. Krishna is never actually needy, but they will be in need for their idea of starving and not dressing the Lord.
ReplyDeletePADA: No prabhu, there does not seem to be any good argument for the GBC / Wyatt idea of stopping hundreds of people from getting brahmana initiations, and thus having a huge manpower gap / lack of temple cooks, poojaris, deity servants, seamstress for deity sewing and so on.
ReplyDeleteThere is already a complete lack of these people almost all over North America. Almost every temple suffers from a lack of cooks, poojaris, people to serve making deity outfits, and so on. Wyatt and the GBC idea is, great progress, we got rid of hundreds of these people, now we have to make sure hardly NO MORE are made. Lets starve the deity program of manpower.
We know at least 100 people who are not initiated at all, and they would be glad to accept initiation as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and do deity worship at these temples, but they cannot do any such service because they are forbidden due to not getting proper initiation. Even if we gave these people ritvik initiation, the GBC and Wyatt types would still not allow them to serve because they want to starve these programs, so it seems self-evident they want these programs to collapse and die, as they are currently.
The many people we know will never accept initiation from the debauchee guru line, so what happens is, the temples remain empty, because there is not enough people to do the pooja and etc. Why people like Wyatt think that we need more starving the temples of manpower, so that the deity program suffers and dies, we have no idea? Why is he for that process? Why do they want that, no one knows, but most people think its because they are deviants who want these programs to collapse and fail, as they are in fact failing.
So anyway, we instruct people to carry on in their homes since they are forbidden to serve at these temples. And that is what we are doing all over the place. We are not going to make a pay gate that they have to worship a debauchee guru line to do service, so they are coming to our idea all over. Many of our "not initiated" people have huge tulasi plants, nice deities, and so on, they have a better program than many of these temples anyway, because no bogus gurus are allowed to speak at their homes. So we will go grass roots. ys pd
Can a single one of any of your 100 people who are not initiated at all follow the principles and chant sixteen rounds? I wouldn't be surprised if not one ritivk in the world follows.
ReplyDelete[PADA: Even a woman CBS TV news reporter knew that the GBC was wrong to promote Kirtanananda as a guru, she did not need to chant anything to know the GBC's gurus are bogus. First of all, we need to have some idea what is a guru, we need to know for example that gurus are not debauchees, the chanting part comes much later after, we have realized a few basic concepts. We need some basic knowledge BEFORE starting the chanting. ys pd]
Wyatt does not really want to stop the worship, he just forgot that would happen. That is the result. He just forgot that would happen.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, its called the law of un-intended consequences. Wyatt thinks he is saving ISKCON by stopping initiations, but he is sinking it down to the bottom of the ocean. None of these people ever thinks through what they are saying, they just pick up some slogans from the GBC and they think its the absolute truth, having no idea of the consequences, i.e. how they are destroying ISKCON in the process.
ReplyDeleteISKCON has had a dire shortage of cooks, poojaris, and everything else for that matter for decades. Even as early as 1988 Lokanatha swami wrote that the temples are ghost towns. To say we need to stop having anyone else come forward to do these jobs, when it was already a ghost town in 1988, is killing what little is left.
Wyatt is proposing killing the little that is left, maybe that not his intent, but that is the factual result. Anyway lets see what he says, I think by now even he knows his plan has major holes in it, i.e. his idea we have to stop initiations, and have no more cooks and poojaris, its just not working. Its in fact making the ship sink faster. Anyway, as long as they keep kicking people out, we will always snatch up a few of their victims and get them going under our process. They never seem to be able to ask, why are all these people taking up the ritvik idea at all? Because you banned all these people in the first place, including us.
PADA: Wyatt, You have to explain why you do not want anyone left to cook and do the pooja after 1978 before we address anything else you say. Explain why you want no poojaris and cooks first, then we can address other points later.
ReplyDeleteOK Wyatt, so you are saying after 1977, there are not going to be any more poojaris and cooks, Krishna will be not clothed and not fed, that is what we thought you said.
ReplyDeletePADA: Wyatt, good progress, so now you are saying:
ReplyDelete(A) our process of offering bhogha to a pure devotee is not accepted by the deity.
And (B) you already admit the GBC system of offering bhogha to their all too plentiful conditioned souls gurus -- ("acharyas" who are now arguing about whether or not to use toilet paper) are also NOT accepted by the deity.
So that means (C) you are saying there is no system at all that should be used to worship the deity.
We should simply have no more brahmanas, no more cooks, no more poojaris, no more offerings, because no system is acceptable, so shut everything down and make the temples into museums.
Umm, that is what we said you were saying? OK so you want to shut down the entire movement, the GBC branch of the movement, our branch of the movement, all of the Hare Krishna movements must shut down their pooja, then there will be nothing. Great except, we are not likely to do that? You need to come up with an actual working plan how to go forward, how can these offerings be made now? Simply shutting it all down is not going to be accepted by either party. Nor do we think neglecting the deity and shutting deity service down to nothing is a good idea in any case. It seems your whole plan is based on the idea of having -- nothing? ys pd