Wednesday, October 2, 2013

The question of Karma (updated)

PADA: A devotee once told us he was going to go back to eating hamburgers -- because there is no karma in doing that. He opined: The cows that are born in the USA are already pre-destined to be killed and eaten, its their karma. So there is no sin in eating these cows because it is already their pre-destiny to die and be eaten.

We tried to argue, but he was so convinced, and he went off to eat hamburgers.

Shastra meanwhile says no, even if the cow is destined to be killed because its born in the usa, its still sinful to kill these "future hamburger" cows because -- we are not authorized to dish out karma to other entities, even if it is their karma to suffer and die.

Its a question of who has authority to impose karma on others? Even if we agreed that the children of ISKCON had some form of bad karma, and they were like cows born in the USA destined to suffer, its still not our position to create or allow that suffering to happen, its our duty to try to halt the suffering of others, especially if they are members of ISKCON, and even more so if they are defenseless children.

Allowing others to suffer then mainly becomes the bad karma issue of those who orchestrated the suffering (ok like the GBC guru's sabha), and those who stood by and neglected to protect the defenseless (by NOT helping people like us and Sulochana address these abuses to the children).

This is called collective (bad) karma, creating or allowing others to suffer implicates those who performed the evil deeds, or those who did not help (us) stop those evil deeds. Draupadi mentions that, she says the Dushasana party, and those who did not protest her victimization, are both implicated. And so all of them were later killed by Krishna for the crime of commission, and omission.

So even if its karma for someone else to suffer, we are not the authorized agents to orchestrate that suffering. We could also start to rob banks and argue, the bank has the karma to be robbed, ok -- but are we authorized to rob that bank, even if it has karma to be robbed?

No, we will be arrested, because its not our authority to dish out this karma to the bank. Therefore our understanding is, the children of ISKCON should have been protected, just as we as a society are supposed to protect the cows. If the children, or the women and the cows, are being victimized, then the society as a whole will suffer collective karma, and ISKCON is suffering from that collective karma for neglecting to protect these entities (and not helping people like us address the victimizing).

Thus, for some of the GBC crew / Narayana Maharaja crew / IRM / Bhakta das -- Prahald group to essentially say, the children being abused is a fine and dandy program because they are just getting their karma, who cares, is exactly the same ideology we were arguing with the man who went back to eating hamburgers.

OK, but even if the children had bad karma, are you folks the persons authorized to dish it out, or to suppress and cover up their being victimized as the IRM / NM / Bhakta das / Prahald types are doing, and to insult the victims by saying they deserved it? You are right if a woman is raped, it may be her karma, but then if we say to her, you deserved that, how will that help her?

Or will that make her suffer worse or even feel suicidal? Saying that you deserve to suffer, especially to children, is the worst form of abuse we can think of? We have to build their self esteem and tell them, no, you were victimized unjustly. This is commonly done in abuse therapy.

And if we tell victims of abuse, you deserve to suffer and die, is that not going to cause them to -- suffer and die all the more? If people are suffering and suicidal, how does it help them to say, you deserved that suffering? That will simply make them more depressed and suicidal? And that is why we opposed these people, and that is why they are upset with us. Of course Sulochana used to say that these people who are saying, so what its your karma, are merely brown nosers of the GBC gurus. He felt they were simply trying to paper over the crimes to protect the criminals, and oppress the victims. He is right.

In any event, we feel the only way to be free of karma is to worship the pure devotee, and avoid the false pure devotees. That has been the main sticking point we have had with the IRM, They wanted to form an alliance / compromise deal with these false pure devotees and oppressors of children, and stop us. That means, they are boosting the evil doers, and that is also a form of karma.

And so the IRM defends, even to this day, their idea that these false pure devotees are authorized to dish out karma. We say, they are not authorized, anymore than our ex-friend is authorized to eat hamburgers to give cows their karma. We have to be very authorized to give out bad karma to others, that means, only higher authorities are allowed to do that, not us mere mortals and neophytes.

So this is all part of following Krishna, we have to help the victims, and protect them from these folks who think they are authorized to give bad karma, and  / or to protect the evil doers giving bad karma as the NM / IRM / Bhakta das / Prahlad folks are doing. They are not authorized to give bad karma, or to protect the program of giving bad karma.

Many kulis thanked us for helping them, they said no one else even bothered to mention their suffering and suicides, in other words, we were among the few who said, -- its not your bad karma mainly, its mainly the bad karma of the adults who have created and allowed this.

We think that is true everywhere, the persons who get blamed for children abuse all over the planet are mainly the adults, not the children victims, and that is the right idea. Saying they got what they deserve, is called blaming the victims, just like our friend who now eats hamburgers, he blames the cows, ... sorry that will not work, its also this man's bad karma for creating or allowing the cows to suffer. ys pd     


  1. Hare Rama,
    please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    Here is the point:
    If you are insincere you can misinterpret any philosophy to suit your own desires.
    (As the story of the man eating the hamburgers by misinterpreting the philosophy shows)
    This general lack of sincerity of most members of the Sankirtan movement is another sad reality, so they simply imagine themselves to be immune to any kind of punishment. Krishna not only has a merciful side, He also severely punishes.
    So a sincere devotee respects the punishment and hopes for the mercy.

    So here are the facts to consider:
    1)The karma of the children was to be BORN IN A FAMILY OF VAISHNAVAS
    2)It is statistically impossible that hunderts of these children had been child molesters in the past, if we consider that Krishna himself says a birth in a family of Vaishnavas is very rare. So it makes no sense that people born in a family of Vaishnavas have all been child abusers in the past.

    Srila Prabhupada says in one purport of SB 1.17.18
    "According to the Padma Purāṇa, our present trouble is due to the fructifying of seedling sins, but even those seedling sins also gradually fade away by execution of pure devotional service."

    So we need to see things in the proper context of free will.
    The children had the karma of being born as Vaishnavas and then the parents/GBC leaders misused their position and neglected to protect the children, so they are liable to be punished. If they at all want to avoid severe punishment, they could have atoned and publicly begged forgiveness from the children.

    Ultimately this world is a nasty place, but the Lord will punish these people according to his own perfect judgement, as soon as they leave their body.
    So justice will prevail in the end. It is simply a question of time: You can run, but you can't hide.

    I hope this is an accurate understanding of the KC philosophy.
    Our body,family,country is our karma. But what happens after that is influenced by choice. I was born with normal birth karma in a industrial country, still because of bad lifestyle choice I always neglected any kind of physical activity which lead me to suffer from back problems in my 20th. This was simply cause by the bad choice of sitting all day and not getting any exercise like other children.

    It is certainly not the Vaishnava way to increase the miseries of others and then not even apologize and make the wrongdoings up to the victim.

    Bhakta Robin

  2. Hare Krsna PADA Prabhu and Bhakta Robin.
    All Glories to His Divine Grace, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
    Please accept my most fallen and humble obeisances.

    Dear Bhakta Robin Prabhu,thank You very much for your article, I totally agree with You. Lord Krsna is infallible, no one has the power to escape His judgement.
    Let me add some more,Lord Krsna has the ability to Judge, when ever He wants, that is why Srila Prabhupad has said in the first canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam first chapter, first verse, He is SVARAT, completly Independend. No one has the power to stop Him,it doesn't matter who you are and what you are.
    They will never atone and publicly beg forgiveness, from the children, if I read the articles, everytime, they want to kill these innocent children, thinking that it will solve the problems, that is their insanity Prabhu, if they publicly ask forgiveness, they will lose all their so-called position, because they know, what had happend to these innocent children, was not right. They didn't deserve it and it was not their karma!!!
    I'm very sorry to read that you have back problems.
    Dear Bhakta Robin please forgive me, what I wrote, in another article, it was just a service from a mother,to her son,I didn't mean to hurt you.

    And You are right, it is certainly not the Vaisnavas way to increase the miseries of others and then not even apologize and make the wrong doings up to the victim.
    A vaisnava is Para Dukha Dhuki, not Para Dukha Suhki.
    All Glories to His Divine Grace, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
    All Glories to the real Prabhupadanugas.
    Hare Krsna.
    Please accept my fallen and humble obeisances.
    Always Your servant,


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