[Hrdayananda playing the piano video] This is what everyone is upset about?????? Please....
HD Goswami Piano Kirtan 3/21/14 Wichita YOUTUBE.COM BY JAYGOVINDA99
[PADA: Amazing really, Hrdayananda is the co-founder father of the worship of deviants as acharyas program; Which has banned, beat and assassinated vaishnavas; Which caused a huge molesting program; Which devastated and bankrupted ISKCON, and yet the big problem here is -- that he is "playing the piano"? Sheesh!]
RDD: I don't think it is that simple, there is another problem. The fact that he plays piano to the maha mantra doesn't even come into it I'm sure, there are philosophical things, I think we should be careful not to over simplify the matter. I don't consider the GBC all fools
MDD: He is not showing disrespect for the movement, the devotees, ISKCON, Prabhupada or anything that I can see. He is wanting to push the movement forward in the Western cultures. He has some direct instructions from Srila Prabhupada to do that and some authorization make adjustments as necessary.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa nice to see some originality instead of the stereotyped imitator stuck on a particular cultural orientation.
[PADA: Hrdayananda's deviant guru's project is not part of any bona fide religion or culture, that is a fact. Only fools like Kshamabhuddhi think this agenda's leaders are "doing something original," not stereotyped and that these deviant "acharyas" have "good" ideas.]
MDD: Listening to him speak, he has some depth... heart felt. That's really the next frontier... the heart.
M Devi Dasi: You think is right to defend gay marriage?
M Dasa: You cant get much more dynamic than this kirtan.
BJ: I see nothing wrong here. Whatever we do utilize it in the service of the Lord. Main thing with Love.
M Dasi With that kind of love? love for money?
BJ: No, with Love for Krishna.
M Dasa We show our love by our following. In this case, following Krsna's main confidant.
BJ: What is he doing that is so wrong here?
M Dasa: I dont know what The Swami is doing wrong. Maybe nothing. The important thing is to follow Srila Prabhupada. His words on following "If he cannot (follow after initiation), then he is cat and dog. He is not a human being. Why he should accept initiation? Let him remain a cat and dog. He promises to follow, and if he cannot follow, then he is nothing but cat and dog. In the court, they take promises, that "In the name of God," "In the name of Bible." So that means he will speak the truth.
"Similarly, before the fire, before Deity, before guru, before devotees, he is promising something, and if he does not follow, then he is cat and dog. He cannot advance. It is not possible. That is the distinction between cat and dog and human being. Cat and dog, they cannot promise. It is not possible. But a human being can promise. And if he keeps his promise, then he is human being. Otherwise cat and dog. Word of honor. The cats and dogs, they have no sense of honor. Either you kick him or pat, he does not know what is the difference. That is cat and dog. He does not know the distinction. A human being knows what is promise, what is word of honor." (Conversation, Jan 10, 74)
[PADA: Hrdayananda has promoted assorted deviants as acharyas. It has been said that some of his acharyas are not even up to the level of the behavior of cats and dogs.]
MM Dasi http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/hridayananda.htm
[PADA: Hee hee, its that darn PADA site that keeps coming up again and again.]
M Dasa The truth is, I haven't read one thing about Hridayananda's activities lately. Just heresy. So I have no criticism without any knowledge of what has happened. I just found this quote on following and it Is so powerful I wanted to share it
[PADA: Hrdayananda has promoted the bogus GBC's guru program since 1978, he says he has serious doubts about the words of the acharyas, why do we always need "a later example" of his deviations? We see this all the time, well yes he WAS deviated in the past, but he was acting good as of yesterday? An acharya is not someone who has been behaving badly as of yesterday, but today he is acting on good behavior. Same problem we now have with some Lokanatha disciples: Well yes our guru did touch a young girl inappropriately; Yes PADA personally knows this young girl victim who is now a grown woman -- and she thinks ISKCON is awful for promoting her aggressor as an acharya, but so what? He is still our messiah. Really?]
BJ: All glories To all devotees who are spreading the Holy Names of Radha Krsna liberating souls from the clutches of Maya and always remembering, never forgetting Krsna Lotus Feet. Even if his intentions are bad. I can't pass judgment on what I just hear. If his intentions are in the wrong place. I pray for him. As we are all condition. I believe judging one another will not help anything but showing compassion and forgiving one another will.
M Dasa: 1968 December 28: "Such practices are against the principles of Krishna Consciousness. I want that all my students should always be ideal in character and not discredit our Society. For Krishna we can execute any activity, but this is not free license to act whimsically."
Prabhupada Letters :: 1968
BJ: So it's a offense if one if a Homosexual and is a Guru? Though it's okay if one is a homosexual and is a devotee? I am understanding this correctly?
Svayam Rasesvari Shutler I see nothing wrong with chanting with a piano. If this was recorded at a Unitarian Church as the YouTube comments say, and he was there as a representative of ISKCON, I would rather see him in devotee garb, you know, the saffron cloth befitting of his position as an initiating guru and the sannyasi order.
[PADA: Why do we want the founder fathers of the homosexual guru deviation being viewed as "the representatives of ISKCON"? Whether in this dress or that dress? At all? Why do we want people who touch young girls inappropriately, to be worshiped as acharyas -- by other's children? What kind of lesson are we giving to children in that case?]
MPG: Prabhupada: Watchtower. They have complained (?). So we have nothing to (indistinct) them. The world is degrading to the lowest status, even less than animal. The animal also do not support homosex. They have never sex life between male to male. They are less than animal. People are becoming less than animal. This is all due to godlessness. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guea [SB 5.18.12], godless civilization cannot have any good qualities. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guea mano rathena asato dhavato... They simply go to the untruth by mental speculation. (end) Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1972, Los Angeles
hmmm...
[PADA: MPG is right, the GBC is promoting deviants as ISKCON's acharyas, this is bogus.]
JG: My feeling is he has his own style and his own methods of spreading Krsna Consciousness. However, is his style the standard that Srila Prabhupada wanted and presented? You can say everything is alright, and I can say, but the reality is we are both conditioned souls, with no spiritual vision, and no ability to see the future consequences of our own actions, what to speak of the reactions one may cause for others.
Why can't he just be honest and resign his lofty, important position of ISKCON Initiating Guru, GBC Member, and Sanyasi? Then he can be an ordinary joe, just like everybody else. No one would judge him, or hassle him, and in all likelihood everyone would appreciate his efforts to present Krsna Consciousness, on his own terms, and by his own methods.
Ah, but there's the rub. He wants his cake and he wants to eat it too. He likes to do whatever he likes, and follow his own rules, making things up as he goes, in defiance of his order or position, and at the same time, he desires to be worshiped, honored, and respected as a great soul and mahatma, on the same level as Jesus Christ. And, that's the problem. ...
MDD: What does homo sex have to do with Hrdayananda maharaja? Has he preached that it is okay somehow? Is he personally implicated in some illicit connection? What is all the commotion about homo sex? As far as I have understood he is trying to serve Prabhupada under Prabhupada's instructions.
GDH: swami has been "preaching" hermeneutic modernism over a decade now, yet how many new devotees did he made? How many new temples did he open? Where is the revival of KC in America due to his modernization? It does not happen .... yet he is still proudly pompously pontificating .... croak ... croak... croak... (Sp said judge the tree by his fruits) ...in this case the tree is barren..
JG: "As far as I have understood he is trying to serve Prabhupada under Prabhupada's instructions." Believe what you want. Stay blind to the truth .
http://www.harekrsna.org/.../Hridaya.../hridayananda_bed.jpg
Martin A. Raghavendu Lewis: These things are going on. At least his has not annexed the Crimea!
[PADA: Bogus acharyas are deviating and this is some silly joke?]
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: He is no hero or role model in my eyes, but his right to follow his own heart should be tolerated without criticism by neophytes stuck on stereotypes.
[PADA: Hrdayananda already followed his heart, and he thus supported criminals, deviants, molesters and criminals as his program's acharyas, and the result has been -- molesting, murders, and mayhem. We should follow that agenda? And this agenda should not be criticized because we are "making stereotypes"? This is how the criminal guru agenda has been allowed and empowered, by taking down its critics. Same problem we have with the Prahlad types, they want to take down the critics of the criminal gurus program, ok and that helps the criminal gurus program.]
Martin A. Raghavendu Lewis But we do have information that he knows that whereabouts of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 and isn't telling.
MDD: Management of a worldwide movement meant to bring the whole world to love of God is not an easy thing. Management is always difficult. Management of a spiritual movement is incredibly challenging.
BDC Dasi: Oh God the point behind the criticism is that we cannot at anytime deviate from the desire of the Acarya Srila Prabhupada! He said we could wear regular clothes as long as we dressed like "gentlemen" but we had to wear a shaved head with neck beads and TILAK he was clear and he was adamant as long as whatever we do is in line with Guru Sadhu and Sastra then we are safe and sheltered if we say "I'm an individual" meaning my opinion differs from Sri Guru then Punar mushika bhava,........again we become Howie.
JG Dasa: A worldwide movement works best when there is widespread censorship. That way no one knows what happened in the past. Anything unpleasant has been silently and carefully swept under the rug, forgotten and forgiven. Devotees tend to be so sentimental, that they find it impossible to see things as they actually are, and instead turn a blind eye to pretenders and cheaters, believing instead that they are great, and worthy of worship and respect.
Anyone who has carefully studied Hrdayananda "Swami's" life and activities, however, will come to realize that he is no sadhu, not actually following Srila Prabhupada, diametrically opposed to Srila Prabhupada as an authority, as well as living the life of an ordinary man, while at the same time pretending to be a great and important saintly person, capable of elevating his disciples back home, back to Godhead.
JG @MD: "What does homo sex have to do with Hrdayananda m? Has he preached that it is okay somehow?" Yes, as well as endorsed Gay Marriage. Is he personally implicated in some illicit connection? Yes. From a modern social politically correct point of view, what's the big deal? Well, for starters, these are not Srila Prabhupada's direct teachings or instructions for sannyasis, and preachers, what to speak of regular devotees.
The problem is do you know Srila Prabhupada's philosophy and teachings? Is it important for Hrdayananda to follow Srila Prabhupada's teachings, or is instead ok, to change the teachings, and teach what he pleases?
Due to ISKCON's censorship policies, almost no one knows what's been going on, its all behind closed doors, for decades. It's all been carefully hidden, to give the impression that Hrdayananda is an important teacher, whom we should all bow down to and offer our respect, because he is following Srila Prabhupada's teachings. But, is this the actual truth, and does he actually deserve our respect?
MDD: If he is deviant he will shoot himself in the foot. I have all I can do to chant Hare Krishna, read regularly and engage in devotional service as best I can. I am not in management. I'm really not in a position to judge anyone else. What really helps me is to be able to find something good and appreciate it.
JG: Everyone turns a blind eye to him. No one can judge. No "fault finding" allowed. That way nonsense cheaters may continue in their positions of authority, decade after decade, until they are finally caught, in such a way that they can no longer get away with it anymore, or ISKCON is sued yet again, for millions of dollars. Nobody has the backbone to stand up, and say they've have enough. They just dutifully keep sending in their donation money. May the farce be with you.
MDD: I don't do very well with negativity. Some devotees speak out, like yourself prabhu.
Not everyone will. You are taking it on yourself to police things. It has become your service. We need police, but not everyone is going to be a policeman.
JG: I knew him way back when. He used to scream at the devotees. Hell Fire - Brimstone type lecturer. One of the architects who made men in ISKCON hate and mistreat women, children and families. If you knew him, back in the early 1970's, as I did, you might have a different attitude towards him.
[PADA: Right, the anti-women, anti-children and family program, combined with the pro-deviant worship program, has had architects like Hrdayananda.]
MDD: I did know him then. That's not who he is now.
SM: For the fallen souls the reactions for their Karma shaill be decided by Lord Krishna.
MDD: I'm not who I was then either. Nor are you.
[PADA: OK except we are not claiming to be acharyas?]
JG: Like I suggested, for Hrdayananda, take off the saffron and stop pretending. Either follow Srila Prabhupada's teachings for sannyasis, or leave the ashram and do whatever he pleases, in his methods of teaching and preaching. Then I would have more respect for him.
MDD: Yes. I think I remember you in La in 1974? The brahmacari who chanted so loudly... in japa session?
JG: But, the problem is, he is attached to his lofty position. He wants both worlds. He's torn between the perks of his position, the worship, the special facilities, and membership in the special GBC 33 Club. He wants to hang onto it, and never give that life up. At the same time, he wants to live like an ordinary man, and enjoy the world. It creates a big conflict. Instead of making the honest choice, and actually behaving in a respectable way, he would rather change the teachings to accommodate his new teachings, and still be respected and worshiped, at the same time.
MDD: Yes, I see your point. It will wind down. Under our own steam we can only go so far.
[PADA: Right, well allowing things to wind down on their own is why ISKCON is now bankrupt.]
Martin A. Raghavendu Lewis As long as an Iskcon member is anti-Gaudiya Math they can always claim that they are truly loyal no matter what. The only exception is that they cannot be a Rtvik.
MDD: Humor helps a lot
JG: Not sure if that was me, or not. I just chanted, read Srila Prabhupada's books, and distributed them. I was a brahmacari for 6 years. But in the 6th year, I realized I couldn't go on pretending. I felt it wasn't honest. I asked to get married. I've been married in my ISKCON arranged marriage for 38 years. After I was married, after we moved out to L.A., Ramesvar Swami called a special meeting of the brahmacaris, and called me up, in front of them, and riduculed me for leaving the brahmacari ashram. Several years after that the "Swami" ran off with a 13-year old girl.
MDD: Yes, these things can only go so far when someone is "off." They hit the wall eventually. We all must become purified to actually go Home. No one can get around that. Yes I do remember you. Very clearly. I was the fanatical Tulsi lady and also would go out on book distribution. I'm so happy for you that your marriage has worked for all these years. That is wonderful. I was also arranged a marriage but it did not work. I was a little older so when it didn't work I just said that was Krishna's arrangement for me and it didn't work so just forget it. I'm old already anyway.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa there are so many Hare Krishna devotees who cannot practice even simple, elementary common decency towards a fellow Vaishnava or even live up to the Christian idea of "love thy neighbor".
this is not even neophyte Vaishnavism. It is simply demoniac behavior that devotees carry over from previous lives of tamasic madness. This is not even up to the level of basic Christian precepts, much less advanced Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
BDC: I'll never forget the time in Florida I was brought in to give one of the eleven empowered pure devotee's a massage. About half way through he says to me "I had a dream once that I was taking intimate messages from Srila Prabhupada to different rooms of the ISKCON house."
Then he paused .... "I had another dream that I was the intimate servant of Srimati Radharani"........another long pause, then looking over to Bir Krishna Das he say's "We'll talk later" I was convinced he was an intimate of Radha ..... then the eleven started going down. When I see him in his polo shirt and short pants with sneakers promoting the same dress for devotee's, he makes me want to puke..... IT"S PATHETIC, he knows what he said, and I know what he was trying to do, sooooo I just hate self promoting false intimate servants of Wadawani
Kshamabuddhi Dasa anybody can criticize. don't take no saint to criticize a Vaishnava.
BDC: But it takes a fool to believe one ...
AKD: When I lived with Hridayananda Goswami for ten days he did not chant any rounds and he used hours each day to play karmi music on his piano.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa even if one does not believe, that does not grant license for criticism. So what. he is still a devotee of Krishna and worthy of your respect not your condemnation. False devotees are so repulsive. no wonder the movement has become a circus side show.
BDC Dasi: Duh... Kshamabuddhi, what a mushroom.
P Das A devotee is known by his behaviour, and by his association.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa there is one judge in this universe and his name is Yamaraja. None of you others are the judge of anything except your own insincerity.
AK Dasa: He is a devotee, but not worthy of the sannyasa title. He was also one of the 11 zonal acaryas that lied about Prabhupada giving them license to act as diksa guru. This is a complete disqualification. These are historical facts.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: It is not for you to judge. judge yourself. you are not perfect. criticize your own pathetic efforts.
AK Dasa: -- Kshamabuddhi, you are judging us now So you are acting hypocritically. We are not Christians, but Hare Krishnas! We believe that we all must judge according to guru, sadhu and sastra.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: Wrong. That is an excuse that is just false. You can judge in your own heart if your want, but you need to keep your hateful words to yourself.
AK Dasa: Why is it hateful to tell the truth?
BDC Dasi: I said my peace I wish him the best, I'm certainly no saint, but I'm not posing as an intimate servant of Radh either. M mataji I'm sorry if I have been Harsh.
AK Dasa: Prabhupada taught us to not be blind followers of false gurus
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: because you are slandering a Vaishnava who might have some shortcomings just like YOU DO. You don't have to follow anyone. but criticism in public is an offense no matter how you like to frame it.
[PADA: We should not criticize Hrdayananda's "deviants for gurus" program, nor the founder fathers, defenders and reinstators of that program? Then we wonder why there has been a mass child abuse problem, empty temples, lawsuits and etc?]
AK Dasa: I am not acting in the capacity of guru. He is...and therefore he is a pretender.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa doesn't matter. when you are perfect then you can criticize.
[PADA: Kashamabuddhi thinks he is perfect so he can criticize others, what a fool.]
AK Dasa: No, it is not an offense I simply criticise according to the rules of sastra. It is entirely bona fide.
If I am correct I can criticise....and I can criticise to help other devotees.
Khamabuddhi Dasa: Yes judge and keep your distance if you choose, but this public slandering is the folly of a fool.
AK Dasa -- Kshama... but you do not shy from doing that yourself?
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: No, you cannot criticize. You are making excuses.
AK Dasa: Anyone can criticise publicly if they do it according to guru, sadhu and sastra. Of course I can. Don't you know our philosophy?
Kshamabuddhi Dasa prove with shastra. you can't because it is a lie.
AK Dasa: Read His Divine Grace Sriila Bhaktivinode Thakura's words about criticism!
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: Slandering devotees is not the "philosophy". Read Mahaprabhu's words about being more humble than a blade of grass.
AK Dasa: Telling the truth is not slandering. Read it yourself.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: It is not your job to "tell the truth" about the shortcomings of devotees. Your job is to be humble.
AK Dasa: Yes, it is. It is humbleness to tell the truth. Bhaktivinoda Thakura:
However, provided one has the right motive, the scriptures have not condemned a careful critique of someone’s faults.
Proper motive is of three types:
desiring the welfare of the person criticized,
desiring the welfare of the world
and desiring one’s own welfare
There are three types of proper motive:
(1) If the intention in analyzing someone’s sins is to ensure that he attains his ultimate welfare, then such reflection is auspicious.
(2) If the motive behind reflecting on someone’s sins is to benefit the whole world, then this is to be counted as an auspicious act.
(3) If such reflection is undertaken for one’s own spiritual welfare, then it too, is auspicious. There is no fault in such reflection.
When one reflects upon the historical accounts of personalities like Valmiki or Jagai and Madhai in light of one or more of these three virtuous motives, then such reflection is never the cause of incurring sin. When a disciple humbly asks his spiritual master to instruct him on how to identify a Vaisnava, the spiritual master, desiring the welfare of his disciple and of the whole world, explains that those who exhibit unholy behaviour are non-Vaisnavas. He thus points out how to identify true Vaisnavas through antithesis.
With the motive of encouraging one to accept the shelter of the lotus feet of a true Vaisnava by abandoning false, so-called preachers of religion, one neither risks committing blasphemy of saints (sadhu-ninda) nor vaisnava-aparadha (offence to Vaisnavas). In such cases, even criticism directed at a specific person is free from fault. These are all examples of criticizing with the proper motive.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa you can fool yourself, but you can't fool me. I have been around this KC movement for 40 years.
[PADA: Right, as soon as we said we should not worship deviants as acharyas, then these people like Kshamabuddhi said we were criticizing people like Hrdayananda, and the bogus guru program went on.]
JG @Kshamnabuddhi - I offer my respectful obeisances to the great sannyasi Hrydananda, who is so much worthy of our respect. http://www.harekrsna.org/.../Hridayan.../hridayananda13m.jpg
AK Dasa http://www.harekrsna.org/.../Hrida.../hridayananda_women.jpg
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: Excuses to slander are the devices of wicked minds.
JG: The king has no clothes. The blind leading the blind.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa I don't follow links. not interested in your slander. Barking coyotes howling at the moon. You don't have to follow. go your own way. that is what i do.
[PADA: The founder fathers of the worship of deviants as acharyas are "the moon," and we should not bark at the moon?]
AK Dasa: 40 years is not proof of anything. Especially if you are so blind that you can't see these obvious things.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa: And you. all you have learned is how to slander devotees. You have made NO advancement.
AK Dasa: We are protecting the innocent devotees from your bogus gurus.
JG: Bogus ISKCON loves people like you, Kshamabuddhi, because you refuse to see when something is off, instead using the excuse "no fault-finding allowed". In this way you allow many others to be cheated as well. And you thus allowed the whole ISKCON society to go down hill.
AK Dasa: You are harming the devotees - after 40 years and you still haven't learnt to protect the devotees! Terrible.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa by teaching them to slander devotees. they don't need that kind of protection. they need protected from you! Hate mongers. living in the poison of hate and bitterness and trying to infect others with it.
AK Dasa: By supporting false gurus you are harming devotees!
Kshamabuddhi Dasa by not slandering a Vaishnava that does not mean I support false gurus. you are simply full of it.
AK Dasa: Don't project your hate and bitterness onto us. Yes, you are slandering the truth by trying to cover it!
Kshamabuddhi Dasa it is your hate and bitterness that is the issue here.
AK Dasa: No, it is yours. See you later.
Kshamabuddhi Dasa Prabhupada never appointed you the judge, jury and executioner of the devotees.
JG: Somebody has to say something. I've been sentimental about devotees, for decades. I always turned the other cheek, and kept sending money and supporting them, no matter what they did, even if they ripped me off, again, and again, and then one day, I said "enough is enough - I'm not going to take this bulls*** anymore", and I woke up. Maybe one day you'll way up too. I have a right to my personal opinions. I am not brainwashed.
AK Dsa Anyway ... I'll go out and distribute some original books now
JG: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/img/hriday7.jpg
G Dasa: Srila Prabhupada - "So far as "youth work'' is concerned, it can be taken up, but our process must be followed strictly. Anyone may come but our process must remain the same. The men are expected to shave their heads and wear robes; they must attend classes, read our books, chant 16 rounds, attend arati, go for street Sankirtana, take prasadam only, etc. To have any separate institution apart from the temple, that we cannot do. Everything must be within the scope of our activities, then this "youth problem'' can be solved.
Our process is proven as the only effective means. If the government or any other organization gives up a place, then we can train up such youth in our own way and surely they will come out sane. That place given will be a temple. So the process remains the same, except on a larger scale. Not that there is a separate division of ISKCON to handle youth problem, but that we have a bigger temple to accommodate them is all, and then the people will see practically how we are doing the highest welfare work." Srila Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga April 9, 1972
Kshamabuddhi Dasa Hridayananda Maharaja is a genius. you all are fools. he has thousands of disciples and you are FB critics. Who is doing service? I also don't read long paragraphs that people write in FB threads. I don't have that much time to give to everybody that wants an audience for their ranting lunacy.
[PADA: There you have it, promoting violent bogus guru cults, that molests children and murder dissenters, is the work of a "genius."]
G Dasa: Actually Kshamabuddhi Dasa there is a place for everything, calm down, Prabhupada did approve this dress with his devotee scientist however the question is should our leaders, sannyasis and gurus dress like this. Yes HDG is a great preacher and has done so much service for Prabhupada
Kshamabuddhi Dasa look prabhus, there are going to be a lot of eccentric devotees in the future. so get used to it. look at Satsvarup Maharaja. Don't be getting all crazy fanatic because some of these western devotees are going to be a little eccentric. It is a crazy age and they all grew up in this crazy western world. show some compassion for eccentric devotees and don't be so hard and critical on persons who are already struggling against kali-yuga. geniuses can tend to be eccentric. I see Maharaja as an eccentric genius and I am sure I could learn a lot from him if I listened closely.
[PADA: Promoting deviants as acharyas is "genius"?]
PDas: The devotees of the Bhaktivedanta Institute were given a concession, by Srila Prabhupada, that they could wear suit, tie and pants, but they had to have tilak, neck beads and sikha. Just because SP gave a concession to one group, it doesn't automatically mean that everyone can dress like that.
LS @"SP gave a concession to one group" This was in 1974. Meanwhile 45 fallen ISKCON gurus and 110 fallen ISKCON sannyasis created such bad reputation in many countries that you can't hold it against a devotee who refuses to wear Vaishnava dress. Take New Vrindavan where they found so many dead bodies of killed devotees. If you wear dhoti in that area they consider you as part of all this. Since we have global media it is rather the same anywhere. Approx 50 Gurukulis committed suicide. In future when Vaishnavas are having great accomplishments this might be changed. But at present moment.....?
MMD: Being a genius does not mean being pure devotee
JD: Your reasoning is specious. There are many, many devotees who continue with Srila Prabhupada's program and have not been dissuaded by those who cannot maintain the standard.
V Dasa: Is Hrdayananda counted in your 45 goowoos and 110 fallen sannyasis? Hah hah! MMdd. And Hridayananda Prabhu would certainly be proof of that. My suggestion though is to follow Srila Prabhupada's genius. Didn't Prabhupada say that if you don't chant your 16 rounds then you are not even human. I'll have to find a reference for that.
PSD: Here is a quote from Prabhupada: If one once chants the holy name sincerely he can go back to Krsna.
M Dasa: Nice piano playing Maharaj. Utility is the Principle!
KM: http://www.dandavats.com/?p=2734 and
https://www.facebook.com/notes/basu-ghosh-das/dharma-as-a-consequentialism-the-threat-of-hridayananda-das-goswamis-consequenti/724846020909698
and https://www.facebook.com/notes/basu-ghosh-das/dharma-as-a-consequentialism-the-threat-of-hridayananda-das-goswamis-consequenti/724848237576143
By Shishir Katote R: The BIG problem with HG Hridayananda Goswami Maharaja is that that his method of interpreting the sastras is that of a western academician. In his Sarva Samvadini Tika, Jiva Goswami accepts 10 types of supportive evidences out of which sabda pramana is the highest.
Lets analyze what HDG is doing. He is denying the authority of sabda pramana and we have seen it on numerous occasions. What is he doing? He is applying the semblance of aitihya pramana to support his theory to refute sabda pramana. But again, 1) It is a semblance of aitihya and in that, the aitihya itself is tampered with the help of suska tarka (dry logic - which is rejected by Baladeva Vidyabhushan and JIva Goswami in their Gaudiya Bhasya and Surgama Sangamani Tika resp.), 2) It contradicts Jiva Goswami who accepts sabda pramana as highest.
karmaṇy evādhikāras te / mā phaleṣu kadācana / mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr / mā te sańgo 'stv akarmaṇi
You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty. (BG 2.47)
This clearly refutes the theory of Consequentialism. Why? Because this verse explicitly mentions that one should not care for the consequences but just keep performing his prescribed duties (actions).
One of his disciples argued with me that laws of dharma are to be rejected as stated by Krsna in BG 18.66 (sarva dharman parityajya). But my answer was that he quoted only half part. Sarva dharman parityajya has a counterpart - mam ekam saranam vraja. But they are not surrendering to Krsna but their respective homosexual partners.
I also have another issue with the behavior of HH. He wears short pants and plays basketball with the young girls. Which sastra allows this? Nitya siddha paramahamsa vairagi babaji like Jiva Goswami denied talking to Meera Bai. He cared for the sastric injunctions first and then preaching. But HH is giving the importance to preaching by breaking the rules of sastras.
If the preaching itself is not according to sastras then how the output will reap the pure devotional service? If his disciple cannot embrace the dress of Krsna by wearing dhoti, how can he claim to be giving KC? Will they pray to Krsna - "My dear Lord, we are not interested in following vedic attire prescribed by you, but yes, we love you, see you soon!"?
M Dasi Stop the fault finding and look internally at yourself. Maharaj has done more service for Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON than I can ever accomplish in my lifetime.
KM: We naturally appreciate the good service done according to guru, sadhu and shastra to Srila Prabhupada, however it is NOT fault finding when fault standout for it self and scream to the sky. We merely analyse situation and in this case disagree with Maharajas position and we argue why based on shastra. So even our GBC have stopped this "Krishna West" thing for good reason. Still we can agree that we must always look to our selfs.
JG: Two things are always applied to situations like this: 1) No "fault finding" permitted or allowed by the rank-and-file devotees. In this way the elite members of ISKCON, at the top, may behave in anyway they choose, break any rules, that all the little devotees, like you and I must follow, without having to accept any responsibility for their actions, or ever be brought to justice, or punished for their transgressions. Only the ordinary devotees have to follow rules and regulations. The elite are somehow exempt. No one ever has the brains or reasoning to question why? Probably the Vegan diet makes them docile and stupid.
2) Quoting sastra for situations like this. Ordinary, rank-and-file devotees must live by the sastra. Hrdayananda, and others like him, are exempt. Again, no one ever questions why? No one is allowed to ask why? It is all due to censorship policies that are applied, that have been applied in the past, at ISKCON temples, as well as at places like the GBC website - Dandavats, where all argument, reasoning, debate and questioning are carefully filtered and removed.
Different web sites and Facebook are the only free and open source for debate available at this time. The only method of squelching debate on Facebook, is the act of De-friending and Blocking. People like me, keep coming back though, so it's almost impossible to get rid of us, and our voices, in spite of attempts to remove us, because we are all so intertwined.
Ksamabuddhi states, as an example, that I have never read Srila Prabhupada's books, and that therefore I have no right to make any derogatory statements regarding Hrydayananda. Ok, so I've read the entire: Krsna Book - 50 times Nectar of Devotion - 50 times Srimad Bhagavatam Bhagavad-gita As It Is - 3 times
Teachings of Lord Caitanya Caitanya Charitamrta - entire 17 volumes all of Srila Prabhupada small books - many times and more...
Why does he make a statement like this, what does it mean, and what is its purpose? Another stupid argument devotees make is "Hrdayananda has done heaps of service, so we have no right to question his actions". And, that's why he gets away with murder, so to speak. Because, no one has the brains to question his actions, purposes, philosophy, intentions, or plans.
LDas: Hrdayananda m pretending to be a non-devotee in order to attract like minded non-devotees into the devotional sphere in of all places, Wichita, what a shocker. Hopefully he will become a 100% uttama pure devotee so he can deliver on the promise he made to his disciples, that he will introduce them personally to Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.
JG: Satswarup das Goswami is an insane madman, who's maintained a relationship with another man's wife for the last 25 years, all the while pretending to be a sannyasi, wearing the saffron robes, accepting new disciples, etc. Everyone looks the other way on this. No one else could ever get away with it. However, the way ISKCON works, he's still worshiped as a sannyasi, ISKCON Initiating Guru, GBC member, etc.
No one ever has the brains to question why or to come to the conclusion that something might be deeply wrong. This is because "he's done heaps of service to Srila Prabhupada." You have to listen to these types of statements, and understand what their meanings are. ISKCON's Elite are exempt from following the same standards applied to ordinary devotees.
JG: My contention is that almost everything that is done in ISKCON is done with the intention of gaining money. If you understand that Hrdayananda is using his methods to attract new followers, disciples and principally DONATION MONEY, then maybe you may begin to understand his true motives. His motives are not based on spiritual devotion, or sastra, from what I have observed, and instead are solely based on increasing his cash flow. I often wonder why it's so difficult for devotees to see this?
My suspicion is that Hrdayananda sees Radhanath Swami's success in attracting new followers with big $$$, outside of ISKCON, especially in the mayavadi community, and he wants to get in on the action himself. If you can see how phony people can be, then perhaps you aren't snowed into believing that his actions have anything to do with promoting genuine Krsna Consciousness.
MPG: Btw, satsvarup cannot for some yrs now give diksha nor has he been a gbc.
[PADA: Satsvarupa's writings form the bulk of the GBC's post 1978 documents, and his books are being sold all over ISKCON, and his writings are advertised on many ISKCON GBC web sites. He is still considered as one of the highest writer authorities all over ISKCON. He started the guru reform etc. His influence is all over modern ISKCON.]
KM: Like our Sripad Aindra Prabhu puts it "We need a revolution in this movement a Harinam Sankirtan grassroot revolution and dont expect it to come from our leaders, cause money is the honey and in the Harinam Sankirtan grassroot revolution there are non ...
ML: Humble is good. Nice music.
LS: @"Hrdayananda m pretending to be a non-devotee in order to attract like minded non-devotees" Hridayananda Swami of course has to carry the can for other's mischief. ISKCON's former good reputation was besmirched by numerous colossal scandals. How Hridayananda Swami should be left holding the bag for what others bungled? After all Hridayananda Swami is the only remaining of the original eleven. If he figures that people in general lump him in with Kirtanananda, Jayatirtha, Harikesh, Bhavananda and he rather changes his dress to not get identified as "one of them" then this should be respected?
BS: My dark side nods: "Yes, JG Prabhu's analysis is sad but true: all such show is meant for one thing, i.e. increasing the cash flow." My sunny side thinks: "Come on, don't be so negative. It DOES inspire new people to chant the mantra." Well, in that case, I trust the power of the mantra. Oh, how I wish that the next step would be: his audience absorbing the (untarnished) writings of Śrīla Prabhupāda (the "greatest contribution to our age")... and grow from there !
DT dasi: He has money from his family. Chanting is a wonderful thing.
NKD: "The chanting should be heard, however, from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord, so that the immediate effect can be achieved. As far as possible, chanting from the lips of nondevotees should be avoided, as much as milk touched by the lips of a serpent has poisonous effects." by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Founder-Acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness
On Chanting Hare Krishna
LS: @"Chanting is a wonderful thing" Right, chanting the holy name doesn't depend on the dress.
NKD: Purity of heart is the essence.
MMD: It's funny all -- why are they stealing in fiskcon come from a wealthy family
MDS: if we went to the Rainbow Gathering, got naked and smoked with our hippy brothers, we could get all of them to chant out of gratitude. Is this where this new mentality is heading? Those of us that knew Srila Prabhupada well know for sure he would be angry and disapprove completely about watering this down just to get some quick results. His instructions are clear (to a sincere devotee) Keep the standards without compromize. Dont lower them for the masses. They need to come to our higher standards. If you cant understand that Hridayananda is making a mockery of everything then that is too bad. He is trying to reach people like you. He has had his chance and ended up minimizing our beloved srila Prabhupada. Now he just cant let go and is still trying to be important. But the scriptures say that "one who displeases his spiritual master, his whereabouts are unknown"
LS: @"from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord" ISKCON has chosen the path of appointing their gurus via voting procedure. These appointed gurus are not to be considered as conditioned souls but as God's direct representative. We are talking here about the platform of absolutism, as good as God. Can anybody tell Krishna what kind of dress He should wear? So live up to your promise, keep to your word. Always remember, it is you who supports ISKCON's bogus guru system.
MD: Appointed gurus are not as good as god. Iskcon wantes us to believe that? There is so much misconception going on. Never accept an eclessiastic guru system
MPG: LS is who? And what is his actual stance?
MD: They are ordinary men until they come to the transcendental platform by execution of devotional service. There is no appointment to full Krsna consciousness. The Nectar of Devotion clearly instructs that a second class pure devotee still on the material platform can accept disciples. Look it up. Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, etc. They are as good as God? Why are they now as good as dog?
So much blind following without enough intelligence to think "this doesn't exactly add up" Jimmy Jones, David Koresh both showed the mentality of ordinary people as blind followers. Death will come and it will be too late to actually think about what is real and what is not.
JG: @DT: "he has money from his family." And there's the rub - why does a sannyasi have any money? Why are the ISKCON Initiating Gurus and Sannyasis allowed to keep their inherited fortunes, as well as donations collected on ISKCON's behalf, while everyone else, all the rank-and-file members, have and are always required to turn all money collected for ISKCON back into ISKCON? I inherited money and had to give it to ISKCON. Why is Hrdayananda and others like him exempt, and allowed to keep their's? Why is a double standard permitted and why do devotees turn a blind eye to this fact?
JVD: "Life is tough, then you die"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JG: @BS: "My sunny side thinks: "Come on, don't be so negative. It DOES inspire new people to chant the mantra." Well, in that case, I trust the power of the mantra. Oh, how I wish that the next step would be: his audience absorbing the (untarnished) writings of Śrīla Prabhupāda (the "greatest contribution to our age")... and grow from there !" The problem is that Hrdayananda's intention is to discredit Srila Prabhupada teachings and writings, as a perfect spiritual authority, and to alter and change his mission. If you can wake up and listen to Hrdayananda's actual words and teachings, you will begin to see his true intention.
The shocking revelation for me is that virtually no one questions his motives. He receives a carte blanche welcome to speak in ISKCON's temples, to promote his agenda, against Srila Prabhupada's mission, and Srila Prabhupada's authority. No one questions him or takes the time to understand the facts. Everyone, instead, remains sentimental, sappy, uneducated and foolish. This is exactly what Hrdayananda is counting on.
MD: Yes, his minimizing of our beloved Spiritual master began a long time ago. People are afraid to call a spade a spade because they have accepted so much mis information and just follow sentimentally in fear. They can do so many things against the true path as laid out clearly by our acharyas, and no one can say he is a rascal, out of ignorance and fear.
MD: JD... someone told you that you had to give your inheritance to Iskcon? I'm sorry. That's your fault. Have you ever heard anything from our Prabhupada that would indicate that you must give up everything? The example is set by Rupa Goswami who gave 1/3 of his wealth and kept 1/3 for emergency.
JG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh50btmbmdE This is the way it has always been done in ISKCON. The rank-and-file had to give everything, and remain in absolute poverty, with none of their needs met. Meanwhile ISKCON's elite kept their own money, grew their own bank balances, kept their donation money, and inheritances. The richest of ISKCON's elite are today's worshipful initiating gurus and renunciates. No one questions this scheme, and instead bows down and worships them as unquestionable and unapproachable authorities. It is regarded as perfectly normal and correct philosophically, as well. In this way, ISKCON remains little more than a utopian pipe dream, that benefits a small handful and neglects, as well as exploits, everyone else.
What can you do? For starters, study Srila Prabhupada's teachings and philosophy, so that you can tell the difference between his genuine teachings and new improved or false teachings. Can you tell the difference between Srila Prabhupada's actual teachings, and false teachings that on the surface, sentimentality claiming to represent Srila Prabhupada's mission, but might in actuality may not be following, or even are in opposition to his mission?
MD: You're just as to blame as them for spreading such foolishness. "That is the way it's has always been done" Who has told you these things. I have been here in Iskcon for 45 yrs/ and I never needed to foolishly accept any nonsense like that.
JG: Haven't you ever heard "everything belongs to Krsna"? This was the indoctrination from day one. I lived in the brahmacari ashram for 6 years. I heard it all the time. I had a scheme at one time, as an example, to distribute more books, when I lived in the Philly temple, back in 1975-76. We sold hardbound books for $5 each. If I got more I held it back, so that if I got $4 or $3, I could still give that person a book, and I turned in the balance. The TP inspected my locker (we each had a small box on a shelf for our personal belongings) and found that I was holding back about $20. I was summarily chastised and punished, more like screamed at for holding back money, and not turning every penny in. The same TP received a $50,000 donation for the temple, a few years ago, and put it in his own personal savings for retirement. Why the double standard? But, everyone looks the other way, and never questions this, because that would be considered "fault finding".
MDD: JD prabhu, Yamaraja takes care of those things in his court.
NKD: Srila Prabhupada wanted us to preserve his society, exposing cheaters. not many people know that as a grihastha, he teamed up with another devotee and actually published the deviations of his sannyasi godbrothers. and those were tame compared to the utterly depraved things going on today...
Martin A. Raghavendu Lewis If one can expose cheating in a spiritual society then exposing their actions must be a form of preaching and real preaching means to set the correct example for others. A real preacher of Krsna Consciousness is the most compassionate person. If our words are contemptuous of others it will be obvious that we are not being compassionate and merciful. The conditioned mind wants compassion and mercy for it's own false idea of self but not for others. The great devotees have prayed, "I am a great offender, none the less please be merciful upon this wretched person." How can we cultivate this mood when we only see offenses an wretchedness in others but not in our selves?
NKD: My Dear Kīrtanānanda, Please accept my blessings. I've received your note along with Brahmānanda's for first time since you left to N.Y. You had no desire to stop in London. This is clear to me from Hayagrīva's letter which indicated that you had already planned to go there even before you left India. Since you have returned to N.Y. you have falsely dictated that I do not want the robes or flags. Why are you disturbing the whole situation in my absence. I never ordered you to speak like that.
They must continue to have robes & tilak & flags & they must distinguish themselves from the hippies. I never objected to any of my students dressing like nice American gentleman, clean shaved; those who are my disciples must have flag, tilak & beads on neck without fail.
Anyway I never advised you to dictate on behalf, please therefore do not misrepresent me. You have been given sannyāsa to follow my principles & not to disturb me. If you do not agree with my philosophy you can work independent and not with-in the walls of ISKCON. You have not understood Krishna properly. The best thing will be to stop your talks my return & if you love me at all please do not talk in any meeting but chant in solitary place—anywhere you like. Hope you are well.
[Letter to Kiritanananda: Calcutta 16 Oct 1967]
Yes, the great devotees admit to being great offenders, while the great offenders pose as great devotees. if we are sincere, we will develop the vision necessary to tell who is who.
SD: This was recorded in a Unitarian Church in Wichita, Kansas, USA.
NKD: Some words of wisdom from bhaktivinode thakur:
- What is the most harmful association in the world?
- A dharmadhvaji is a person who has no devotion or renunciation in his heart but makes a show of it externally. He wears the clothes of a devotee to accomplish materialistic ends in a duplicitous manner.
- There is no worse association in the whole world than that of a dharmadhvaji. One should rather associate with sense enjoyers.
Being deceitful, the dharmadhvajis take on the appearance of devotees with a desire to cheat everyone, and to fulfill their crooked desires, they cheat the foolish by helping them in their rascaldom. Some of the dharmadhvajis become gurus and others become disciples, and by trickery, they accumulate wealth, women, false prestige, and material assets.
If one gives up the association of crooked hypocrites, one can honestly engage in devotional service. (Sajjana-toshani 10/11)
What about those who who put on external signs of devotion?
- Hypocrites are those who do not accept that devotional service is eternal, but they always display external signs of devotional service. Their goal is to accomplish some remote purpose. (Caitanya-siksamrta 3/3)
- Those who put on external signs of religion but do not follow the religious principles are imposters. There are two types of imposters: cheaters and fools, or cheaters and cheated. (Sajjana-toshani 10/11)
- Who are sinful and cheating on the pretext of being an Acarya?
- Pseudo ascetics and hypocrites give others mantras and pretend to be Acharyas, but they engage in various sinful activities. Detached Vaishnavas must develop extremely pure characteristics. (Sajjana-toshani 5/10)
- What are the characteristics of cheaters who imitate successful devotees?
- Some cheaters dress themselves as successful yogis and thus cheat the world. They search after sensual happiness and try to increase their own glories by living their lives as yogis.
Because chanting the Holy Names of Hari is the constitutional duty of the devotees of Krsna, the cheaters artificially preach the principles of kirtana, and they act whimsically in regard to the fruitive and religious activities of real yogis. They engage in various material enjoyments and create illusion in the minds of ordinary people, but these material activities cause their own downfall. They artificially cry and fall unconscious during kirtana, and they become more materialistic than ordinary people. They become proud of being devotees, on account of accepting the dress of a Vaishnava and the signs of the renounced order of life. They can therefore never approach the pure Vaishnavas, and they take shelter of and associate with worldly abominable people.
Even though they are averse to glorifying the qualities of Krsna, they sometimes manifest artificial symptoms of ecstatic love, such as shivering while dancing in the kirtana. Day by day, these activities become the object of their enjoyment. (Bhajanamrtam)
Martin A. Raghavendu Lewis The enemy is within. The society of cheaters and cheated means that we are cheated because it is our own desire that we do not want the genuine thing. I don't see how making a campaign of exposing cheaters will help us purify our own desires so that we may eventually come to the point of elusively desiring to satisfy Krsna and his representatives?
MDD: It's the victim thing. People get stuck there. I'm a victim. I did everything I was supposed to and then I was abused or cheated, whatever. I am an innocent victim.. My father (not a devotee) is stuck there at 95 years old. He goes over and over and over how his step mother gave his tricycle away when he was 5. He gets worked up about it. He was a victim. anyway the poor woman has been dead for 50 years, died of cancer at a young age. Need to get a higher taste. That comes from good association.
DT: we are trying to get everyone to chant. Lord Chaitanya did Hari Nam Sankirtan in the streets . so do we. I think people (devotees) can do what they want. But don't say it is Srila Prabhupada's program. He set a standard. If we don't want to follow that is our choice. But don't try to say its Srila Prabhupadas program. Sanyasi with no TULASI BEADS, wearing shoes during initiation, wearing shorts as you give initiation. 100% not Srila Prabhupadas program.
MDD: 100% not. Keep things in perspective. I think that is also the problem with the book editing. the tendency to edit the books is not going to go away. But it needs to be documented who and what and when what edition, etc. Not that the edited book is presented as the original. If the editing is good service and helps the preaching then the devotees responsible get the credit. Nice service done for Prabhupada. But to just do all kinds of editing and then present it as if nothing has been done...... for one thing academic circles will not accept such a thing as authoritative and the problem of the authenticity will get more pronounced as time passes. It will be a huge problem in the future.
NKD: Prabhupada has stated in his conversations of May 3, 1973, Los Angeles, "…One who is mischievous, he is culprit. But one who tolerates mischievous activity, he is also culprit. If you are mischievous, you are criminal. But if you tolerate mischievous activities that is also criminal. "
& on April 19, 1973:
"So you all write very strongly vehemently. Even it is a little offensive, still these rascals should be taught a lesson. Yes. They're misleading. Godlessness."
_____________________________________________________________________
According to the Sri Isopanisad:
"These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious …government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in Bhagavad gita (16.19-20) that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell. Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification."
-Srila Prabhupada, Sri Isopanisad, mantra 12, Purport
___________________________________________________________________
Prabhupada says,
"Satyam Bruyat, priyam bruyat.." means speak truth not palatable things to please masses.
"According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in such a straight and forward wa…y, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth." Bhagavad-Gita As It Is. (10.4) Purport
JG: It's important, in this aspect, to study and understand what Hrdayananda's motives are. Does he represent Srila Prabhupada's mission? Or is he instead aiming at discrediting Srila Prabhupada, and reconfiguring his mission in some new modernized form? To study the situation, and try to understand what is factually going on, is not "fault finding". This is why deep study is required, in order for one to understand Srila Prabhupada's teachings, as well as the philosophy of our sampradaya. Instead of being permitted to do this however, what is done instead, is people will give you instructions to work on your own flaws, and ignore the flaws of others?
NKD: One who condones crimes shares in the sinful reactions. people don't understand how Srila Prabhupada's legacy is being undermined every step of the way. would they also just stand by and practice inactive introspection if someone came to pillage their father's house? S Devi Dasi Just because you don't like wearing a dhoti....
ND: Wow a lot of bitter ritviks on here and a whole lot of grossly uninformed statements. Here's a link to a whole series of questions on the topic:- http://youtu.be/lt13yOT_faY
[PADA: Basu ghosa, Sushir Katote, and the GBC who criticized Hrdayananda, are not ritviks?]
MD: Ritviks? that's nonsense. No one is acting bitter. You are perhaps grossly uninformed. Are there any ritviks here? speak up and be counted. NKD. You rock. Here is more of Kirtanananda das......
M Dasa Whereabouts are Unknown part 1
Hare Krsna... please accept my humble obeisances. For a long time I have wanted to create a paper to delve into the phenomenon that happened at New Vrindavan when Kirtanananda Swami created his community there. There are several reasons for this. One important reason is to try to shine some light on the topic for the benefit of those good souls who are still confused about the whole development and subsequent collapse of the community that flourished there for years.
In 1969 Kirtanananda visited our Temple in Detroit when my wife Hladini and I were new, enthusiastic bhaktas there. At that first fateful meeting, I couldn't see into the future how we would eventually move to New Vrindaban, how I would be disenchanted with the community and leave New Vridaban forever and never return, or how my good wife would want to stay behind and would become his faithful servant for 17 years--only to be eventually disillusioned, practically exiled to Africa, and eventually killed by a warlord during the revolution in Liberia.
Since some do somehow blame her untimely death on Kirtanananda and another well known sannyasis associated with Hladini before her death, but who has himself passed away, one might be convinced that I am doing this paper with some agenda. And some might cheer that, but I can honestly say that that is not the case.
Whatever happened is what happened and it was a very long time ago and I hold no grudge against anyone. But still I have always had this urge to dig into the truth about the Kirtanananda era of New Vrindavan. Besides this internal urge, over the years there are still occasionally persons whom I've talk to on the Internet that are interested in Krsna but are confused about New Vrindaban and they have asked me to help them understand what went on there.
So to start with, I shall dig up many letters from Srila Prabhupada, beginning at the time when Kirtanananda took sannyasa and Srila Prabhupada sent him to London to open a temple. These many letters from Prabhupada will reveal our beloved guru's feelings about the behavior of his first sannyasa, which will shape the feelings and understanding of those sincere devotees that will read these letters. I welcome the efforts and comments of others to add to this effort...
I guess the biggest confusion and question in the minds of many is whether or not the controversial changes he made were bona fide. It was claimed at the time by his followers that "Bhaktipada" was a pure soul, that he was being prompted by a higher power, and that anything done by such a person is acceptable.
Of course, when a person is fully surrendered to Krsna, Krsna does dictate from within, and whatever is done by such a person, irrespective of whether it is socially acceptable or in line with current morals or values, those actions ARE transcendental. But unless Kirtanananda was pleasing his spiritual master, there is no question of his pleasing Krsna. So, our idea here is to discover through these many letters whether his actions were pleasing or displeasing to Srila Prabhupada.
Because, as devotees, we are not servants of Krsna. We are servants of His servants. So to understand whether Kirtanananda's actions were "bona fide," it is important to understand whether or not what he was doing was pleasing and sanctioned by his spiritual master, who kindly introduced him to Krsna.
When we disobey the pure devotee guru we loose our link to Krsna. We become independent and loose the shelter of the internal potency, or, in other words, we again come under the strict control of the modes of nature. The scriptures enjoin that one who displeases his spiritual master, "his whereabouts are unknown."
So the first thing I shall do is look for letters to and about Kirtanananda dasa from Srila Prabhupada that will very clearly show if Kirtanananda was simply a submissive extension of disciplic succession who was following closely in the footsteps of Srila Prabhupada and thus pleasing both his guru and Krsna, or if he was an unfortunate soul who had seriously displeased and offended his blessed gurudeva and thus was working independently and was subject to the reactions to his own plans. I assume most devotees already know that answer by now, so this paper is directed to those who need to actually think about what they believe and whom they accept as perfect.
From the point that Srila Prabhupada sends him to London, I will include all of the letter where he mentions Kirtanananda, in order, and will not just pick those that support a particular idea. Our desire here is to reveal the truth and not to present a biased characterization of Kirtanananda.
We must keep in mind that Srila Prabhupada loved Kirtanananda greatly as he did all of his disciples. Our desire here is not to do any harm to Kirtanananda. Srila Prabhupada would be very pleased if anyone could in anyway help to bring his wayward children back to Krsna's Lotus Feet, as was Srila Prabhupada's only mission. So we never want to work against own guru by being envious towards our god brothers, even if they have fallen down. But still, it is important that the truth be known.
We see there are many who still follow Kirtanananda, at least in their hearts, and feel that he has been misunderstood. I am hoping that we can help here to put things in proper perspective so that all intelligent devotees can adjust their thinking and can advance in their devotional path. To be successful in this small endeavor, I pray for the blessings of our beloved gurudeva, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
To begin our search.... whereabouts are unknown part 2 Srila Prabhupada had great hopes for his young disciple. In August and September of 67 he writes to a few of his disciples about Kirtanananda's entrance into the sannyas order. Srila Prabhupada's idea was that Kirtanananda was to travel and open centers as he had done in Montreal.
To Jadarani: (Aug 22, 1967) "...it has been decided by me to transform Kirtanananda into a Swami, and he may then go back to Montreal for improving the center, and for opening more centers in that country."
To Woomapati: (Sept 5) "Kirtananda is now a fully Krsna conscious person as he has accepted sannyas on the birthday of Lord Krsna with great success. He is the first sannyas in my spiritual family and I hope he will return back home to begin preaching work with great vigor and success."
By late September, Srila Prabhupada had decided to send him to London instead.
To the devotees in LA he writes: (Sept 20) "Kirtanananda is going back to London tomorrow. I have advised him to start a center in London positively and after a month Rairama will join him from Boston. Kirtanananda has experience to start a new center and therefore I have entrusted him with this great task. I hope he will be successful there as I have given him one important letter of introduction for London. Please pray to the Lord that he may be successful"
The same day Kirtanananda left for London Srila Prabhupada writes to Brahmananda to tell him of his plans: "Kirtanananda has already gone back this morning. I have given him an introductory letter to London. In this connection, much money has been spent from the building fund. If he gets a favorable response, then Rayrama may join him there, and when he goes, I shall go. I think that I am now fit to travel and Krsna will give me strength."
Prabhupada was including Kirtanananda in many of his plans for expanding the movement and now he was preparing to send Rayrama also. Srila Prabhupada himself was thinking that he too wanted to join them there. So the following day he wrote his disciple Rayrama to tell him of his plans for London.
"Yesterday morning I sent Kirtanananda to London with a letter of introduction to Miss DC Bowtell 27 Cornhurst Road London NW 2 Basurey Gaudiya Math. I hope this lady who is supposed to be a Gaudiya Vaisnava will receive him well there and there is possibility to start a center there. You were to start for London by the beginning of November, if Miss B gives us her cooperation and Kirtanananda is successful in his mission you will reach there timely and on receipt of a favorable report myself and Acyutananda may also go"
But Srila Prabhupada was soon to get a great shock and seeming setback to his plans when he learned that Kirtanananda never really planned to go to London in the first place and had tricked him. He had considered Kirtanananda a loyal disciple and he was greatly aggrieved by this foolish move by his first sannyas, as indicated by the letter he writes a few days later to Hayagriva in America.
March 25 at 4:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
-- Whereabouts are Unknown part 3 "Kirtanananda Swami prearranged with you to reach on the 24th instant but he arranged here with me that he would stop at London and I gave him one important introduction letter. Although he had in his mind not to stop at London and yet promised before me that he would go, for which I gave him extra $20.00. I cannot understand why he played with me like this. If he had no desire to go to London he would have plainly told me like that. It has certainly given me a great shock. He is one of my very faithful disciples and if he does like that how can I prosecute my programs. I have received one post card from him from London Airport in which he writes that he is going directly to NY. I understand also from Umapati's letter that he has already reached New York although I have not heard anything from him from New York. It is all my misfortune."
So Kirtanananda had prearranged to disobey his guru and meet with Hayagriva, his old friend and roommate, just two days after he left Delhi for London. This offense at the lotus feet of his spiritual master marked the beginning of a long decline into even move serious transgressions that caused much grief to our beloved master, Srila Prabhupada, who in later letters gives use greater insight into Kirtanananda's developing relationship with his gurudev.
For another week, Srila Prabhupada does not mention the incident with Kirtanananda in his letters, but by October 3rd he decided to send Rayarama to London to do what he had wanted Kirtanananda to do.
He writes on that day to Satvarupa: "In my last letter to Brahmananda and Hayagriva I've already requested that Rayarama take the introductory letter from Kirtanananda and as previously settled Rayarama may go to London in Nov. In London there is one Miss D.C. Bowtell, 27 Cranhurst Rd., Crickle cod, London. NW. 2. This old lady was given Hari Nama while my Guru Maharaja was on earth. Since then she is maintaining one apartment and may be doing some preaching work. So Rayarama may open some correspondence with her before going there. This will help in the matter of opening a center in London. This function was intended for Kirtanananda. While returning to NY, he was to stop there and see her but he was so much frenzied to see and meet his old friends that he forgot the order of Krishna and indulged in a sort of sense gratification. It is certainly a shocking incident which I never expected from a disciple like Kirtanananda."
Later that day, Srila Prabhupada wrote to his disciples in LA praising them for their service there and told them about the Kirtanananda incident. What he said gives us a better insight into our connection with Krsna through our spiritual master and the importance of accepting the orders of our guru as being those of Krsna.
He writes, ''I am very glad that you are now in Los Angeles and organizing the most important temple. I had great desire to have our center in L.A. and by grace of Krishna you have fulfilled my desire. I had another great desire to open a temple in London and hoped also that Kirtanananda after accepting sannyasa would do this job. For this purpose he was given an introductory letter to a London lady along with expenses. However, out of his whim he did not go to London but went directly to New York''.
''This is a terrible example and it has shocked me. Your service attitude encourages me because Krishna can never be an order supplier. We should always remember that Krishna is the only order giver. His order is received through the agency of the spiritual master. The bona fide spiritual master is the manifested representative of Krishna. The spiritual master is described in the scriptures as good as Krishna because he is the most confidential servitor of Krishna. To please the spiritual master is to please Krishna. On this principle we must advance our Krishna Consciousness and there is no danger."
But our Srila Prabhupada is very forgiving. The next day he writes to Brahmananda about Kirtanananda's arrival in NY.... "I am glad to learn that Kirtanananda Swami is now in N.Y. and that he looks very nice in midst of his glowing God-brothers. But he would have been looking more nice if he had stayed in London for a few days as it was settled here. Anyway I shall be very glad if Kirtanananda goes with Rayarama to London and opens a branch there cooperatively. He has got an introductory letter for a London lady. Immediate correspondence may be opened with her."
A few days later, after learning that Kirtanananda was planning a lecture at Harvard, Srila Prabhupada writes to his disciple Satsvarupa in Boston, and we begin to understand the real significance of this act of disobedience.
"Kirtanananda may be eager to address in the Harvard University but recently he has lost his link on account of disobedience. You sing every morning that by the mercy of the Spiritual master one can please the Lord and one who has not pleased the spiritual master cannot have any access in the realm of Krishna Consciousness. Very recently Kirtanananda has developed a different consciousness of Maya which is called misuse of one's minute independence offered by Krishna. "
"By misuse of one's independence one at once becomes a victim of Maya and thus he loses all importance in Krishna Consciousness. So it is my definite opinion that his lecture anywhere now will bear no spiritual sequence. He must rectify his mistake before he can play in our Society any important role. By lips he says that he is a surrendered soul but by action he is thinking differently."
-- part 4 Actually, it wouldn't be until some years later that Kirtanananda would have the full freedom at New Vrindaban to make all the well known changes in Srila Prabhupada's devotional process such as type of clothing, etc, but one can see from the content of Srila Prabhupada's early letters that Kirtanananda tried at his earliest opportunity to start introducing what his guru would call "nonsense."
Over the next two weeks, Srila Prabhupada got many reports from so many persons about the trouble Kirtanananda was causing. On October 11th Prabhupada wrote to Brahmananda.
"Regarding change of dress, I beg to inform you that every Krishna conscious person must be clean shaved, must have Tilaka on the forehead and other eleven places and must have the Sikha on the top of the head besides beads on the neck as usual. Rarely one can continue to keep beard but it is better not to keep it to distinguish oneself from the hippies. We must let the public know that we are not hippies''.
''Do not try to follow the unauthorized advice of Kirtanananda. Nobody cares for the dress; every sane man follows the philosophy and practical talks. Let Kirtanananda Swami do something practical. Let him do whatever he likes and let us see that thousands of American are following him. Unless he does so do not accept his principles. I think all of you except a Sannyasi may dress yourself just like a fine up to date American gentleman but one must have the Tilaka ,etc, as I have mentioned above. "
"Kirtanananda is the first man in our society who was cleanly shaved and kept the Sikha on the top of the head and now he has begun to keep beard again. This is not good. Whatever he is doing nowadays has no sanction from me. And he has deliberately disobeyed me by not going to London. Now he appears to be out of my control and therefore I advise you not to follow his principles unless he shows practically something wonderful. I gave him a chance to do this in the matter of opening a Branch in London but he has failed to do it.''
''Now let him show first of all that by seeing his newly grown beard he has been successful to have many Americans following him and our financial condition has improved, then try to follow his instruction. Otherwise reject all idle talks. A Krishna conscious person must be seen by ears and not by the eyes or in other words one should try to know the depth of realization by a Krishna conscious person and not see the beard which has become the practice of the hippies."
Then Srila Prabhupada writes to Rayarama on the 13th and strongly admonishes Kirtanananda's misbehavior. ''I am very sorry to hear that Kirtanananda is advising you to give up the robes and the flags on the head. Please stop this nescience as I never instructed Kirtanananda to act like that. I am not at all satisfied with this action of Kirtanananda. Kirtanananda has no right to instruct you in that way, without consulting me."
"People are being attracted to the chanting of Hare Krishna and not to Kirtanananda's devices. Kirtanananda suggested to me when he was here that the Americans do not like the robes and flag. I told him personally if you think that Americans in great numbers will follow you, simply for not having robes & flag, I therefore advised him to drop for a few days in London & test this theory. But he has gone directly to N.Y. and is now causing these disturbances without consulting me. "
"I have not sanctioned these methods. In my opinion, Clean shaved Bramacharis and Grhasthas in saffron robes look like angels from Vaikunta. Translation of prayers into English is good & if somebody dresses like nice American gentleman without any robes, I have no objection; but every one of my disciples must have the flag and marks of tilak on forehead. This is essential. Besides that, nobody should do anything without my sanction."
"I am very sorry to hear Kirtanananda, without doing anything practical, changes his ideas constantly. He was first man in our society to take the robes and shave cleanly, and take flag but now he is changing his position.... I say straight that Kirtanananda is wrong and you are right when you say that the movement will come to nothing if I am not satisfied with your actions."
Next, I shall reveal the letters that Srila Prabhupada sent over the next few weeks to his disciples, instructing them how to deal with his renegade sannyasa.
On Oct 13th he wrote to Jadurani: "You have written to say that I am 'as hard as the thunderbolt & softer than a rose' is quite right in the line of Krishna Consciousness. I am very sorry to inform you that Kirtanananda is playing the part of a foolish man after his return to N.Y. and it is necessary for me to play the part of a thunderbolt for his nonsense activities. He has unnecessarily instructed something to Damodara which is not sanctioned by me. Since he has developed this nonsensical attitude so much so that he is dictating something which is not sanctioned by me, all his instructions should be neglected. Please inform this to all centers."
Then he writes to Brahmananda these two letters....
"I have received a letter from Damodara (dated Oct. 9) in which he writes to say: 'Swami Kirtanananda has returned to the United States and is causing quite a stir among the devotees. Following his suggestions, we have stopped wearing robes and have cut off our flags. He said these appurtenances are too strange-looking to outsiders and only make it more difficult for them to consider chanting Hare Krishna. Swami Kirtanananda has said we must avoid appearing to be Orientalists if we are to have 108 centers in the US.'''
"This is very much disturbing to me and has caused me much pain. Please therefore stop Kirtanananda from making his mental concoctions. Do not be misled by him. I have never advised him to act like that. If he is causing such disturbances he should not be allowed to indulge in such nonsensical activities. I have already written you to inform you that somehow or other he has become crazy; otherwise he would not have disobeyed me to go directly to N.Y."
"For the time being he has cut all link with me, therefore any instruction given by him is unauthorized and should at once be rejected. He has no right to dictate as he has without my sanction. Whatever is to be done will be executed when I return. He is too much puffed-up nonsensically therefore you should copy this letter and forward to all centers that Kirtanananda has no right to dictate anything to the Society in this way. I am very sorry that he is exploiting his present position as a sannyasi. I have no objection if members of the Society dress like nice American gentlemen; but in all circumstances a devotee cannot avoid tilak, flag on head, and beads on neck. These are essential features of a Vaisnava. Hope you are well.''
-- Whereabouts ar Unknown part 5 And on October 16th: Dear Brahmananda "Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter (dated Oct. 10) and I've also received Kirtanananda's letter. From different centers of our society the news of the activities of Kirtanananda is giving me too much pain. From Rayarama's letter it is clear that Kirtanananda has not rightly understood Krishna Consciousness philosophy and it appears that he does not know the difference between impersonal & personal features of Krishna. The best thing will be to prohibit him to speak in any of our functions or meetings. "
"It is clear that he has become crazy and he should once more be sent to Bellevue. He was in Bellevue (mental hospital) before and with great difficulty and with the help of Mr. Ginsberg we got him out. But it appears that he has developed his madness again, therefore if he is not sent to Bellevue then at least he should be stopped from speaking such nonsense. It is clear from his activities that he has been attacked by maya; he is a victim. We shall pray to Krishna for his recovery but we cannot allow him to speak on my behalf. I am trying to return as soon as possible & when I return everything will be all right. Hope you are well…"
Then on the 16th he writes to Rayarama: "I have already requested Brahmananda to stop Kirtanananda's speaking at any of our functions till my arrival. If he wants to preach anything he can do it on his own in a different place. Krishna is certainly one and different, but his oneness is stressed by the impersonalists which is distinct from our philosophy. Our philosophy of Krishna's oneness and difference is explained in the 9th Ch, 4th verse of B.G., in which it is clearly stated that Krishna is one by distribution of his diverse energies. When Krishna controls his diverse energies he does not become impersonal. If Kirtanananda believes in one-Self, why does he stress the vibration and not the words? Why does he find difference in vibration and words? If he believes in one there is no difference between vibration and words? And why shouldn't one be attached to the chanting? All this means that he has no clear idea and he is talking nonsense. If Kirtanananda does not understand this philosophy then better he should stop speaking nonsense. I can understand his designs but I cannot help because I am far away from the place. I am leaving here with a note to Kirtanananda which you please show him & do the needful. Hope you are well."
Finally, on the 16th of October, Srila Prabhupada writes to Kirtanananda and confronts him.
Calcutta
16th October, 1967
My dear Kirtanananda,
Please accept my blessings. I've received your note along with Brahmananda's for first time since you left to N.Y. You had no desire to stop in London. This is clear to me from Hayagriva's letter which indicated that you had already planned to go there even before you left India. Since you have returned to N.Y. you have falsely dictated that I do not want the robes or flags. Why are you disturbing the whole situation in my absence. I never ordered you to speak like that. They must continue to have robes and tilak and flags and they must distinguish themselves from the hippies. I never objected to any of my students dressing like nice American gentleman, clean shaved; those who are my disciples must have flag, tilak and beads on neck without fail. Anyway I never advised you to dictate on my behalf, please therefore do not misrepresent me. You have been given sannyasa to follow my principles and not to disturb me. If you do not agree with my philosophy you can work independent and not with-in the walls of ISKCON. You have not understood Krishna properly. The best thing will be to stop your talks my return and if you love me at all please do not talk in any meeting but chant in solitary place--anywhere you like. Hope you are well.
Your ever well-wisher
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Then on October 17th Srila Prabhupada wrote to Pradumna about Kirtanananda. He writes: ''Regarding Kirtanananda, he is undoubtedly a good soul, but lately he has been attacked by maya; he thinks too much of himself--even at the risk of disobeying his spiritual master and talking nonsense about Krishna. As a man haunted by a ghost talks so much nonsense, so also when a man is overpowered by the illusory energy--maya, also talks all sorts of nonsense. The last attack of maya upon the conditioned souls is impersonalism. There are 4 stages of attack of maya; viz.: 1 stage is that a man wants to be a protagonist of religion, 2 is that man neglects religiosity and tries to improve his economic development, 3) is to be protagonist of sense enjoyment and when a man is frustrated in all the above mentioned stages he comes to 4, which is impersonalism, and thinks himself one with the Supreme. This last attack is very serious and fatal. Kirtanananda has very recently developed the 4th stage malady on account of his negligence and disobedience to his spiritual master. Sometimes a foolish patient when he is out of feverish attack by the grace of the physician, thinks that he is cured and does not take precaution against relapse. Kirtanananda's position is like that. Because he helped the society in starting the Montreal center I thought he is now able to start other branches and when he asked me to give him sannyasa I agreed, taking the opportunity of his presence in Vrndavana. Simply by his Sannyas dress he thought himself as cured of all material diseases and all mistakes, but under the influence of maya he thought himself a liberated patient, just as the foolish patient thinks himself cured from the disease. Under the spell of maya, he deliberately disobeyed me by not going to London and consequently his disease has relapsed. Now in N.Y. he has began to dictate nonsense in my name--such as giving up robes, flags etc. Instead of opening new centers he has began to deliver his nonsense sermons amongst his God-brothers which are all against our principles. For the present he should simply chant Hare Krishna and cease to deliver lectures because he has not understood the whole philosophy very nicely.''
''Regarding the hippy religion; we must distinguish ourselves from the hippies. The hippies generally maintain long hair and beard and in order to distinguish ourselves from them we should be clean shaved. When our devotees go outside I have no objection if he dresses as nice American or Canadian gentleman. Up to date gentlemen are all clean shaved so if we do not keep long hair and dress ourselves nicely with tilaka, flag and beads on the neck, apart from our devotional service, then certainly we shall be distinct from the hippies. I think we should follow this principle rigidly and there is no question of giving up robes in the temple.''
MD: Now, prabhu N Dasa, about those ritviks. can you name one or two? (asked in complete humility)
JG: You see, anyone who questions the current conclusions of ISKCON authority, is labeled a "Ritvik". A Ritvik isn't what you think one is, by classical definition, and instead is just a blanket statement applied to anyone who questions authority. It is ISKCON's equivalent of "Enemy of the State" or "Enemy of ISKCON", which, by the way, I have been personally accused of before. It doesn't matter how many years of service one may have given ISKCON in the past. It doesn't matter how much donation money you've given. You are to offer service and money to ISKCON mindlessly, and no amount is every enough. If you question authority, however, you are an "Enemy of ISKCON" or the shortened version - a "Ritvik". Ritvik is ISKCON's equivalent of "Dirty Jew". "He's just a Ritvik". Such and such devotee is a "Ritvik". I've heard these types of statements many times by devotees.
Martin A. Raghavendu Lewis It's even worse than you think. Once I was in Alachua and the authorities had spread a rumor that "Ritvik" is actually a Yiddish word that is synonymous with schmendrick. At the time some devotees that were into posthumous initiation were openly called schmendricks by temple authorities. Oy vesmere! It wasn't until the Jewish Defense League was called in until it stopped.
JVD: Mama Mia! And devotees say bad things about the Pope!
JG: I guess my main objection, isn't Hrdayananda's playing the piano and singing the Hare Krishna mantra? What could be wrong with that? Nothing. In my eyes though, Hrdayananda has a past, that he's never had to answer for. He hasn't been living, in any way, by the standards of a sannyasi, and yet he is still accepting worship, as if he were. He's done so many potentially evil things, and yet, everyone remains sentimental and looks the other way. Perhaps his greatest crime is to pretend to be a pure devotee, equal to Srila Prabhupada or Jesus, and accept initiated disciples, and their service, in addition to their money and support, in return for the promise of taking them back to Godhead, which was a total lie on his part. Oh! Acaryadev (godly man who teaches by his own example), please accept our humble obeisances! To me, though, it's like saying Hitler was a good man, because he was a vegetarian. Was Hitler at any time a good man?
People have the right to form their own opinions however. Many people like Hrdayanda Swami, and don't think his offenses are so serious. They've done their own due diligence, and they still like him anyway, and desire his association. And since they are adults, they should be free to make their own choices, without being hassled and attacked, especially on their own Facebook page.
NKD: i came across this conversation today and i just chuckled at the irony:
Prabhupada: (...)"Simply rascals. At least expose these rascals. We have no power to kill them, but at least we can expose them. That is also great service.
Hrdayananda: Sometimes, Prabhupada, when we expose them, their argument is, "Oh, you are a saintly person. Why are you criticizing me?"
Prabhupada: No, it is not criticizing. It is opening your eyes. You are blind, you are thinking yourself as very big, so we are opening eyes. You are not big. You are not even pig or fig. That is... ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya. You are blind with ignorance, so we are trying to open your eyes. See things as they are. It is favoring you. It is not criticizing you. [break]...words, vibhu, the great, and anu, the small. So these rascals, they do not understand these two important words, "God is great; I am small." They think, "I am as good as God." This is the folly. [break] ...English proverb? "Where angels dare not, the fools rush in." Eh?
JG: What I like to do is whenever Srila Prabhupada speaks in his books of rascals, atheists, mayavadis, bogi yogis, charlatan meditators, fools, mudhas, etc., I like to say "yes, Srila Prabhupada, you're speaking of me." We are so used to thinking he is speaking of someone else, so that his instructions can be someone else's problem, and we can blame or label them. We sell books to save those despicable karmis! Those horrible mayavadis and atheists, as if it is someone else at fault, that Srila Prabhupada is attempting to correct and save. No, he's speaking of me. It's so much easier that way. I have to take responsibility to amend myself, every time I open his books.
BV Swami Srila Prabhupada called me a rascal for pretending to be a spiritual authority and giving classes but not reading his books and for not being realized in certain aspects of the tattva. I foolishly objected thinking that he misunderstood my situation. He said- "You can cheat others but you cannot cheat me, I know."
So what to do? I tried to take up his instruction with some small degree of humility and do what he said to get purified so that one day I would not be a rascal. I am still working on it and have a long way to go. I am still a rascal. But I have loving guardians who kindly point out my defects and shortcomings.
Unless we face up to these anarthas, admit that we have them and pray for release to our guru, we can never rise above rascaldom.
RN Dasa we really have to know guru tatva
MDD: "If one gives the conditioned souls a chance to become Krishna conscious, all his activities are approved by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is extremely pleased...Following the examples of the previous acaryas, all the members of the Krishna consciousness movement should try to benefit the conditioned souls by inducing them to become Krishna conscious and giving them all facilities to do so. Such activities constitute real welfare work. By such activities, a preacher or anyone who endeavors to spread Krishna consciousness is recognized by the Supreme Personality of Godhead." http://prabhupadabooks.com/sb/6/4/44?d=1
SB 6.4.44 Srimad-Bhagavatam
prabhupadabooks.com
My dear Prajäpati Dakña, you have performed extreme austerities for the welfare ...
So how far does this go? "all his activities are approved by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is extremely pleased",,,"inducing them to become Krishna conscious and giving them all facilities"
NKD: Yes, but that is hinging on "If one gives the conditioned souls a chance to become Krishna conscious". so it depends on the kind of CONSCIOUSNESS one is spreading. the incredulous thing is that people presume men like hdg are spreading KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS, when prabhupada says in so many places that his movement is infested with fake devotees, and explains so many times what the real criteria are.
MDD: "what the real criteria are" what are the real criteria?
NKD: well, how about following one's initiation vows, for starters? how about devotional qualities? aversion to sense enjoyment? selfless service? following the rules of one's ashram? loyalty and obedience to Srila Prabhupada?
ALL of our acaryas and so many sastras warn us about the kali-chelas pretending to be devotees. this is extremely important. iskcon of course suppresses this info, because it would expose them.
MDD since we are now sitting in judgement, we can only pass a verdict based on solid evidence. Hearsay is not acceptable. "following one's initiation vows" What vows and is there proof of a violation? "averse to sense enjoyment" what sense enjoyment? "selfless service" please explain selfless... "loyalty and obedience to Srila Prabhupada" is there something tangible to uphold this claim?
NKD: numerous eyewitness accounts by respectable devotees who do fit the description. also his publicly expressed views directly contradict Srila Prabhupada's instructions. i believe the sincere souls, especially since they have nothing to gain by opposing wealthy, protected individuals who can get them killed even, as has been the case. of course, ultimately one will disregard evidence of any kind if s/he is not ready to change their views. proper discrimination is actually gained at the madhyama level. still, by carefully reading and by trusting sincere devotees, gradually we are able to disentagle ourselves from the dumbing-down propaganda of the fake guru club, which kills common sense and morality as a prerequisite of its continued exploitation of rank and file members.
RN Dasa how can you ask others to chant and be your disciples when you have years without chanting and practicing Sanyasi life?
JG: @MDD: My question to you, have you studied the situation with HDG at all? Do you know, for instance if he chants any rounds at all, what to speak of 16 a day, the minimum one must do to even be accepted as a 1st Initiated devotee, what to speak of an ISKCON Initiating Guru and Sannyasi? There are eye witness reports, by several devotees, who were in close contact with the Maharaj (servants as an example) who submitted their findings to the GBC, that he wasn't chanting any of his rounds, at all. No action was taken. It has been reported that he has, more than once, been in rather intimate association with some of his female disciples - a big no, no for genuine sannyasis. Doesn't that matter to you? It seems to me, you might be turning a blind, somewhat sentimental viewpoint over the Swami, who might not actually be following anything that Srila Prabhupada required for sannyasis.
It seems to me that you're comparing yourself or myself, and stating that since we aren't following anymore, that it is the same as HDG not following anymore, and that's ok. Not! You and I never sat on a Vyasasana, which is strictly reserved for bonified representatives of Srila Vyasadeva. We never pretended to be pure devotees, on the same level with either Srila Prabhupada or Jesus Christ, making the claim that by surrendering to him, you could go back to Godhead.
Did anyone wash your feet MDD, and drink the juice, as HDG has had done for himself perhaps hundreds of times?
The most important reality, regarding HDG is - what are his teachings? What are his motives? Each time I listen to his words these days, I find he is actively challenging Srila Prabhupada, as our spiritual authority, as well as the spiritual culture that Srila Prabhupada introduced. I wonder why you don't see that as well?
JD: This is a blast from the past: January 5, 2010 at 7:23 am Accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I saw your article in the Sampradaya Sun and also the response to it. I have a question for you. As we know either you are part of the problem or you are part of the solution. As a senior leader and sannyasa minister of ISKCON what exactly are you doing to solve the problem, besides writing something that we all know at least for the last 15 or 20 years? As the sannyasa minister what are you doing to stop Hridayananda Das from making a joke of the sannyasa asrama, in the role of a diksa guru. I am sure you are totally aware of his activities, opinions, and life style. And this is nothing new, it is going on for many years Maharaja. Why you are not sanctioning or doing anything to stop such a shameless person who is misrepresenting your spiritual master?
PrahladanandaSwami says: January 7, 2010 at 11:22 pm Dear J dasa,Please accept my greetings and the blessings of Lord Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Somehow the GBC Body’s attempt to encourage Hridayananda Maharaja to improve his sadhana bhakti and his behavior as a sannyasi have not had the required effect. There is an attempt at another strategy to handle the problem. We’ll have to see what Lord Krishna desires. Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,
Prahladananda Swami ISKCON GBC - Sannyasa Ministry
In the end, of course, nothing was done, and nothing changed.
MDD: "We’ll have to see what Lord Krishna desires." Well there's the answer.
JG: Srila Prabhupada told us "if you see something needs to be done, then Krishna is telling you to do it." That's why I speak up. I know something is wrong. I listen to HDG teachings and statements directly challenging, Srila Prabhupada's mission. I can't stay silent and just leave things up to Lord Krishna.
MDD: Can you give an example of "I listen to HDG teachings and statements directly challenging Srila Prabhupada's teachings and mission."
JG: Here is an article, as an example, given in the Sampradaya Sun this morning regarding HDG's statement that Srila Prabhupada is wrong when he stated in Krsna Book, that Krishna, 5000 years ago, liked to eat halava, and that can't possibly be a correct statement.
Here is HDG's exact words: "Hridayananda Dasa Gosvami said: Krishna is fully present in the mind of a pure devotee, and so I don't doubt that Prabhupada is seeing Krishna. However I am not sure that in such spiritual visions, Prabhupada is looking back 5000 years in time. Thus I believe that Prabhupada's visions of Krishna are "trans-historical", beyond history.
For example, in Krsna Book, Prabhupada states that for the original Govardhana celebration, Krishna instructed the residents to prepare halavah. The word 'halvah' comes from the Arab root 'halwa' 'sweet'. "Halva is a confection or sweetmeat originating in the Balkans and eastern Mediterranean regions," and probably brought to India by the Muslims. My point: if Prabhupada tells us that Krishna eats halavah, then I accept that Krishna eats halavah. I'm not sure that Krishna actually ate halavah 5000 years ago."
http://www.harekrsna.com/.../03-14/editorials11530.htm
AKD: Sorry... I cannot remember if I posted this earlier in this long thread. But this why some of us are concerned about Hridayananda Dasa Goswami:
http://www.oneiskcon.com/dharma-as-a-consequentialism/
JG: If I could suggest, don't post links. I don't think MDD is opening or reading any of them. Post the actual info, openly, if you can. Also no long philosophical topics. Get to the point and show exactly where HDG is off.
As an example, below is the rebuttal to HDG's claim that the word "dhoti" doesn't appear anywhere in the Vedas, so that means when Srila Prabhupada taught us to wear dhotis, he was wrong:
Is the Term 'dhoti' in the Vedas?
BY: HARI PARSHAD DAS
Mar 24, 2014 — USA (SUN) —
In order to derive the term 'dhoti', we will have to trace the original term 'dhauti': The actual Sanskrit verbal root by Panini is given as follows: dhavu gatisuddhyoh (as given in Panini's Dhatu-patha)
Then according to Panini 3.1.102, the suffix 'ktaḥ' is added to the root dhavu, and after eliminating according to Panini's rules, we get:
dhautah
Dhautah means "that [cloth] which is washed". When a feminine suffix is added to it, it becomes,
dhauti
When this term is translated into Prakrta languages, the "au" in the beginning changes to "o" by the following rule:
aut ot (Prakrta-prakasa of Vararuci, rule 41)
So it becomes 'dhotī'.
If someone wants to find the original Vedic term, they will have to look for the term 'dhauta'. They can find this term in the Vedas. Especially in the Panca-vimsa-brahmana, the term 'dhauta' can be found. The Panca-vimsa-brahmana is a part of the Veda.
AKD: I disagree, dear J Prabhu. Some if these issues are deeply philosophical and need some extra time and energy to understand.
MDD: Thank you, Interesting..
JG: However, MDD, and others like her, don't read any of the stuff you've been posting. They hang on to a sentimental idea that HDG isn't doing anything wrong, and that we have no right to judge him, or attempt to stop him. In this case, I believe, you must bend your rules, because even though many things have already been posted here, with plenty of links, I don't think she has opened any of them, or studied anything.
MDD: This article could be understood in a few different ways.
AKD: That is her decision. At least the discussion here is an open debate and we can present our different views.
MDD: It is not necessarily offensive to Prabhupada. Seen one way, the halava that is being discussed is something we are very well acquainted with. The toasted farina in butter. But it is very likely that this was not what halavah meant in the ancient past. So what is the offense?
AKD: I also do not want to devote too much time on this - as I think the book changes are more important. As time goes so many deviations will manifest, and in the end there will be so many that the only solution is to simply follow correctly and be the best example. Then those who are ready for the real thing will come to you, and those who wants to be cheated will end up somewhere else.
MDD: The rotten fruit will fall off the tree of its own accord
JG: What HDG stated is that Srila Prabhupada is wrong for stating in Krsna Book, that Krsna ate halava 5000 years ago, and that it is a mistake in his books. How can that not be offensive to Srila Prabhupada? How can you have more than one interpretation about what he is saying? So what you're saying is it's ok to say Srila Prabhupada is wrong and that's not an offense?
[PADA: Right, why even bring up the topic?]
MDD: let me look at the article again
JG: At Keshava's Memorial service, at the L.A. Temple last May, HDG grabbed the microphone, and gave a long lecture, stating that the term that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly gave "Vedic Culture" doesn't actually appear anywhere in the Vedas, and that it's a made up term. Isn't that an offense against Srila Prabhupada? The problem is he is openly invited into ISKCON temples to make statements against Srila Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada's teachings, and Srila Prabhupada's mission. No one questions it. However, bona fide sannyasis from other Vaishnava religions, are strictly forbidden from stepping foot on ISKCON property, or speaking. What gives? That what's upsetting to me.
MDD: Granted his behavior is bizarre for a "sannyasi". No one will disagree with that. But he is situating himself outside of traditional Indian Vedic culture. that is his whole attempt. His whole idea. Krishna is not an Indian. He's right there. Krishna appeared in India. We know from Prabhupada's lectures, "The sun appears in the East but it is not an Eastern sun."
SM: Even Srila Prabhupada said the same
NKD: the world is full of fake gurus, but the main reason decent people object to the shenanigans of the likes of hdg is the fact that they have no place in Srila Prabhupada's mission.
JG: Srila Prabhupada says Krishna ate halava, 5000 years ago, in the Krsna Book. HDG says Srila Prabhupada made a mistake, and that he's wrong. Because, HDG argues, that halava is a modern word, that did not originate in India, and has been borrowed from some other country. Therefore, he couldn't have possibly eaten halava, and that Prabhupada is mistaken.
That's an offense, to state that your spiritual master, has made a mistake. And, if you read the complete article, posted above, you will see that the origin of the word is indeed India, and not somewhere else. Even the word sugar originated in India. Ancient Greece and Rome did not even have sugar. Therefore, HDG is the one who has made the mistake, and not Srila Prabhupada, after all. But, unless you study HDG's actual statements, you might conclude that he is speaking authoritatively and accurately, when he attempts to correct Srila Prabhupada, and so you assume that HDG has done nothing wrong, and has not made any offense.
SM: guys, instead of fighting over nuances, why not help build some schools, colleges, hospitals, orphanages that helps mankind both spiritually and materially
JG: "And amongst logicians - I am the conclusive truth" -Bhagavad-gita. The intellectual class must argue and debate, as much as the military class must fight. That is our dharma. We must discover what is the conclusive truth, even if to outsiders it appears that we are just uselessly bickering. It is not our dharma to do humanitarian works that you are describing, to improve the material world. This was not Srila Prabhupada's teachings.
AKD: @LS, so you excuse his dress code With being ‘’the last of his kind’’ of the original 11 , not wanting to be put in any ways connected to them..wow what an act of heroism indeed.it is!
What about Shrila Prabhupada coming to the west, giving initiation and 2cn even too?.and to woman as well? Being laugh at and criticized by His godbrothers? For them it was enough reason that He came to the mudhas and mlechas ,but giving them Brahmana initiation was in their envy eyes, total blasphemy! Not understanding the instruction given by Their Guru Maharaja.
@ MDD, I am sorry but I don’t understand how you don’t understand asking a few times….where is the wrongdoing in saying Shrila Prabhupada was wrong? May The Blessed Lord bless you with more spiritual intelligence, to see and know…the difference between right and wrong. On the Absolute platform there is no such thing, on the material, where we all still dwell ,it’s a place where we define the sometimes very tin line between being an Impersonalist from being Personalists. There is a nice quote from J. Rumi..an Sufi mystic: Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
@ JG, and few others, Thank you from my heart for speaking out loudly and by doing so, defending HDG Shrila Prabhupadas life mission and our only chance, not only as being part of it, being blesses beyond words, and our own comprehension, giving the chance for serving Him…but the only chance for the whole world. Your existence gives me and many hope. Vanca Kalpa. All Glory’s to HDG Shrila Prabhupada!
Srila Prabhupada: "Don't be disappointed. Kṛṣṇa will act through His movement and kill them, these demons. How it will be done, that you cannot know now, but it will be done. Let us remain true soldiers. That's all. And if it is a fight, suppose we die in the fight. The fight means with vow, with determination either to gain victory or die. Because it is fight against māyā, why we shall be afraid of being killed? Where there is fight, one must know that "Either I am going to be killed or gain victory." Jivo va maro va. Those who are devotees, either they live or they die—the same thing. While they live they are serving Kṛṣṇa; when they die they will serve Krsna. Jivo va maro va. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). He goes to Krsna. (laughs) So what is the loss? We are working for Krsna, and if we die we go to Krsna. So what is the loss? Same business.
Srila Prabhupada Evening Darsana February 15, 1977, Mayapura
Amazing, after 16 years again whole books are written (see above). And we rank&file are supposed to day after day read all these revelations?
ReplyDeleteSo there is a thick curtain of illusion hanging above all these Vaishnava camps. Nobody sees clearly. And those who claim to see clearly cannot convince others. All these explanations fall on deaf ears. And at the end of the day everybody turns on tv and thats it. As soon you tell all these folks to elect their leader and follow, no, no, this we cannot do. We all want to be our own boss. Hm, they want to unite all these Vaishnava camps but as soon someone says, elect your leader and follow, reformation accomplished, no, no, never we cannot do this. So well, you are doing exactly that since 30 years, why worry, just go on like that till this universe is dissolved. Rebellion, not to surrender was the original cause why we came here. So these so called genuine Vaishnavas simply want to go on like that. What can be done, this is kali-yuga, Prabhu. Meanwhile efficient business-minded Hindus plan to take over Western temples in order to have this whole madness come to a halt.
Again thanks to PADA, IRM for going on year after year after year to keep the status quo. And have discussions go on.
whose facebook thread was this, and what is the title of the thread? id like to check it for further comments. thanks
ReplyDeleteBhakta Sushir Katote admits ... Hrdayananda is bogus, hah hah, means he is saying GBC gurus are bogus. Still says some are bona fide at same time? Hrdayananda propped up as bona fide for 30 years ... and now same people who propped him up are getting away scot free? What about people who concocted the bogus gurus in the first place? And kept fools in post of guru? No one asks about these people?
ReplyDeleteHrdayananda made a statement about 20 years ago after going to college and living at his mommy's house wearing shorts and associating with girls that he was going to come up with a big plan for spreading Krishna Consciousness, the greatest plan since Prabhupada's. Krishna West is obviously the best he could come up with. With a plan like that, I think he needs to go back to the drawing board.
ReplyDelete