HG Urmila devi dasi, Feb 10 2014 (facebook discussion - "The GBC Does Not Vote In Gurus"): Prabhu, if the GBC are misunderstanding guru tattva by their unauthorized authorization process, it is perfectly legitimate for us ISKCON members to say so. A mandated bureaucratic process is far, far different from voluntarily getting blessings. I do not like those who imagine the GBC to have ill motives. We do have a responsibility as ISKCON members to say something in the appropriate forum, and in an appropriate way, when resolutions and laws are opposed to sadhu-sastra-guru."
The GBC does have a guru voting system! They have in fact a "2/3 show of hands" voting for guru system! If any GBC member says they don't vote for gurus, then one really, really, really has to wonder why they would say that. Clearly, at least some of them know that a guru voting system is bogus. So, they deny that they are doing what they are doing.
The first level of guru voting is local -- the "guru candidate" has to get a majority vote of a local council. Second level of guru voting is by the whole GBC body via email. They only collect "no" votes -- abstaining or silence is a "yes" vote. In some cases there will be a third level of voting in person as guru at the GBC meeting. How anyone can say this is not voting is beyond the dictionary definition, and beyond common logic.
It is unfortunate that many devotees, including many leaders, think that the choices are un-sastric bureaucracy or anarchy. Those of us schooled in organizational leadership and management know that there are MANY organizational forms and structures besides those two. Accusing those opposed to bureaucracy (which would include Srila Prabhupada!) of wanting anarchy is simply ignorance at best.
If you want to know whether or not the GBC rules are a voting system, why not just read the rules yourself and see? It's pretty obvious. And, if you want to say that a voting system is sastric, why not research it and see what sadhu-sastra-guru have to say about voting systems to decide who is a bona fide guru? Perhaps you recall the reason I left the SP disciples' conference....
With all due respect, if we want to research sadhu-sastra-guru on how someone is known as a bona fide guru -- what is the criteria and what is not the criteria -- we read and study the sastra, the commentaries of the acaryas, the words of our own guru and guru parampara, and study the lives of the acaryas both in our line and in other bona fide lines for millennia. If we find solid evidence which states that the guru voting procedures of institutional bodies are necessary for knowing whether or not someone is a bona fide guru, then we know that such procedures are correct according to sadhu-sastra-guru.
We do NOT know simply by having discussions among ourselves without thorough reference to sadhu-sastra-guru. "The Krishna Consciousness Movement is Authorized." Why? Because on matters of siddhanta, which includes guru-tattva, we should be firmly and unequivocally grounded in sadhu-sastra-guru, not our own personal opinions or so-called practical considerations and flawed logic.
Pratyatosa Das: Urmila's saying that the GBC's current voted-in "guru" system is bogus. Here's what I said about it previously: "Just see! Even members of the GBC's own Sastric Advisory Committee (SAC) are beginning to speak out about the fact that their voted-in multiple "guru" system is bogus. But what alternative does the GBC have? The only ones that I can think of are Srila Prabhupada's ingenious ritvik system of initiations or complete chaos"!
Prabhupada was clearly against having more than one guru within ISKCON because it creates factions, which he was also against: I have heard that there is some worship of yourself by the other devotees. Of course it is proper to offer obeisances to a Vaisnava, but not in the presence of the spiritual master. After the departure of the spiritual master it will come to that stage, but now wait. Otherwise it will create factions. (SPL to Hansadutta dasa, October 1, 1974)
And yet, certain self-motivated rascals actually have the audacity to use the above as evidence to try to legitimatize the GBC's concocted, ever-changing multiple guru system!
Ys, Ptd
[PADA: OK first problem is, they keep voting in unqualified people to be their gurus. Even if their"2/3's show of hands guru voting" was a valid system from our Vedic history, like voting in the Pope at the Vatican, they have no idea who a guru is, so they vote in unqualified people all the time. Of course none of our gurus was ever voted in, its not our system. ys pd]
Dear PADA (from anon das): Alachua is just like a butchers slaughter house. Most of them don't even know it , which is the nature of ignorance. Alachua temple is hosting Jayadwaita swami for one month. Don't know if he will be doing his usual "book change seminars" again or what, but I do know it's nice to hear transcendental classes rather that class's on policy. Policy class's are not transcendental.
We are also dealing with kirtan contamination here, ie RAMO, and super loud, super fast mrdunga drumming with no chanting on part of drummer. Very disturbing. Apparently Aindra prabhu told Madva prabhu for 3 hours that he must chant audibly while drumming. That was one of the 1st things we learned, that we must chant audibly 1st of all then add instrument when we can. Any further ideas along this line will be appreciated.
Jayadvaita on the other hand gets disturbed just from hearing the Hare Krishna japa chanting tapes, he says they are too loud. So we are going from way too loud and crazy kirtanas with concocted long drum solos, to, its too loud to hear Srila Prabhupada's chanting japa in the AM, go figure.
The GBC does have a guru voting system! They have in fact a "2/3 show of hands" voting for guru system! If any GBC member says they don't vote for gurus, then one really, really, really has to wonder why they would say that. Clearly, at least some of them know that a guru voting system is bogus. So, they deny that they are doing what they are doing.
The first level of guru voting is local -- the "guru candidate" has to get a majority vote of a local council. Second level of guru voting is by the whole GBC body via email. They only collect "no" votes -- abstaining or silence is a "yes" vote. In some cases there will be a third level of voting in person as guru at the GBC meeting. How anyone can say this is not voting is beyond the dictionary definition, and beyond common logic.
It is unfortunate that many devotees, including many leaders, think that the choices are un-sastric bureaucracy or anarchy. Those of us schooled in organizational leadership and management know that there are MANY organizational forms and structures besides those two. Accusing those opposed to bureaucracy (which would include Srila Prabhupada!) of wanting anarchy is simply ignorance at best.
If you want to know whether or not the GBC rules are a voting system, why not just read the rules yourself and see? It's pretty obvious. And, if you want to say that a voting system is sastric, why not research it and see what sadhu-sastra-guru have to say about voting systems to decide who is a bona fide guru? Perhaps you recall the reason I left the SP disciples' conference....
With all due respect, if we want to research sadhu-sastra-guru on how someone is known as a bona fide guru -- what is the criteria and what is not the criteria -- we read and study the sastra, the commentaries of the acaryas, the words of our own guru and guru parampara, and study the lives of the acaryas both in our line and in other bona fide lines for millennia. If we find solid evidence which states that the guru voting procedures of institutional bodies are necessary for knowing whether or not someone is a bona fide guru, then we know that such procedures are correct according to sadhu-sastra-guru.
We do NOT know simply by having discussions among ourselves without thorough reference to sadhu-sastra-guru. "The Krishna Consciousness Movement is Authorized." Why? Because on matters of siddhanta, which includes guru-tattva, we should be firmly and unequivocally grounded in sadhu-sastra-guru, not our own personal opinions or so-called practical considerations and flawed logic.
Pratyatosa Das: Urmila's saying that the GBC's current voted-in "guru" system is bogus. Here's what I said about it previously: "Just see! Even members of the GBC's own Sastric Advisory Committee (SAC) are beginning to speak out about the fact that their voted-in multiple "guru" system is bogus. But what alternative does the GBC have? The only ones that I can think of are Srila Prabhupada's ingenious ritvik system of initiations or complete chaos"!
Prabhupada was clearly against having more than one guru within ISKCON because it creates factions, which he was also against: I have heard that there is some worship of yourself by the other devotees. Of course it is proper to offer obeisances to a Vaisnava, but not in the presence of the spiritual master. After the departure of the spiritual master it will come to that stage, but now wait. Otherwise it will create factions. (SPL to Hansadutta dasa, October 1, 1974)
And yet, certain self-motivated rascals actually have the audacity to use the above as evidence to try to legitimatize the GBC's concocted, ever-changing multiple guru system!
Ys, Ptd
[PADA: OK first problem is, they keep voting in unqualified people to be their gurus. Even if their"2/3's show of hands guru voting" was a valid system from our Vedic history, like voting in the Pope at the Vatican, they have no idea who a guru is, so they vote in unqualified people all the time. Of course none of our gurus was ever voted in, its not our system. ys pd]
Dear PADA (from anon das): Alachua is just like a butchers slaughter house. Most of them don't even know it , which is the nature of ignorance. Alachua temple is hosting Jayadwaita swami for one month. Don't know if he will be doing his usual "book change seminars" again or what, but I do know it's nice to hear transcendental classes rather that class's on policy. Policy class's are not transcendental.
We are also dealing with kirtan contamination here, ie RAMO, and super loud, super fast mrdunga drumming with no chanting on part of drummer. Very disturbing. Apparently Aindra prabhu told Madva prabhu for 3 hours that he must chant audibly while drumming. That was one of the 1st things we learned, that we must chant audibly 1st of all then add instrument when we can. Any further ideas along this line will be appreciated.
Jayadvaita on the other hand gets disturbed just from hearing the Hare Krishna japa chanting tapes, he says they are too loud. So we are going from way too loud and crazy kirtanas with concocted long drum solos, to, its too loud to hear Srila Prabhupada's chanting japa in the AM, go figure.
Give Urmila a chance she can't screw things up any worse than most of the men have! I'm not saying she is the smartest cookie in the bunch but close to it. If becoming voted in is what it takes then so be it. Besides, if half the swamis are in their pajamis and not watching porn on the internet they won't vote no and she will be allowed to become a guru. If they are watching porn they still won't notice she is being voted on. And if they are actually doing some service then they will allow her to pass, since it has already been approved by the GBC. She has nothing to lose and only the pleasure of srila Prabhupada to gain if she tries. Go for it Urmila!
ReplyDelete---------- Forwarded message ----------
ReplyDeleteFrom: Pratyatosa
Date: Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Urmila dd: It is perfectly legitimate for us ISKCON members to speak out
To: [Google Prabhupadanuga Group]
Cc: Urmila Edith Best
Dear Mother Malati Prabhu, Srila Prabhupada also said, "I shall never die. I will live forever in my books!"
This letter was obviously just a delaying tactic. A trick to get one of his overly ambitious disciples to continue to engage in devotional service just a little while longer so that Prabhupada could get as many books published as possible, and so that he could open as many temples as possible. For Prabhupada, it was like a juggling act: Trying to keep some of these types of disciples from blooping or from being more trouble than they were worth,
Ys, Ptd
On Monday, February 10, 2014 2:56:37 PM UTC-5, Malati Devi Dasi wrote:
On 2/10/14 2:49 PM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>
> Prabhupada was clearly against having more than one guru within ISKCON because it creates factions, which he was also against:
> I have heard that there is some worship of yourself by the other devotees. Of course it is proper to offer obeisances to a Vaisnava, but not in the presence of the spiritual master. After the departure of the spiritual master it will come to that stage, but now wait. Otherwise it will create factions. (SPL to Hansadutta dasa, October 1, 1974)
This letter was not a warning against having more then one guru, he was addressing initiating in the presence of one's spiritual master. As he himself said, "After the departure of the spiritual master, it will come to that stage..."
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi.
[PADA: OK first problem is, they keep voting in unqualified people to be their gurus. Even if their"2/3's show of hands guru voting" was a valid system from our Vedic history, like voting in the Pope at the Vatican, they have no idea who a guru is, so they vote in unqualified people all the time. Of course none of our gurus was ever voted in, its not our system. ys pd]
ReplyDeleteJust for clarification, the Pope at the Vatican does not claim to be God's direct representative. You are wrong, mistaken! The Pope at the Vatican is a ritvik and says this all the time.
People, especially Vaishnavas always come up confusing this.
Plz note the Pope is administrative personnel, on behalf of Lord Jesus. Their guru, diksha-guru, is not the Pope, it is Lord Jesus. The Pope is thus baptizing/initiating like a ritvik acarya on behalf of Christ.
Modern Vaishnavas, especially Indian Vaishnavas always try to point out that the church is bogus because they vote in the Pope. However, they are mistaken, this is humbug.
The Pope is not God's direct representative as within ISKCON the diksha-guru. The Pope is just an officiating priest.
Officiating staff members are subjected to be elected unless you promote favoritism, cronyism, got it? Whereas a genuine spiritual master has be a truly liberated resident of Vaikuntha, a pure devotee, mahabhagavat, fully realized paramhamsa. Such a pure transcendentalist cannot be elected, he has to be recognized by his character and qualification. Just like a brain surgeon. He can't be voted in. A brain surgeon, heart specialist, cardiologist actually must have the qualification. Voting in diksha-gurus without checking their qualification and authorization turns Vaishnavism into hodge-podge.