[PADA: Not saying we agree to all the content of her book, but its contains a lot of factual research. Nandini was one of the few people to support the PADA effort in the early days, and we thank her for giving us a lot of "inside information" and credit her with extreme bravery to take on the bogus GBC's guru cult, which had (especially at the time) a reputation for severely oppressing critics. We are also very sorry for the way she and others like her were treated so badly in the name of Krishna. Anyway, her book title says it all, "Betrayal of the Spirit." That is what they did to her, and to thousands of others. ys pd]
Hare Krishna, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Today is Groundhog Day, my birthday, and I want to invite you to celebrate with me. Last month, my publisher released the e-book version of Betrayal of the Spirit. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
If you miss the real ISKCON of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and want to read a detailed summary of what you let happen to it, please read the book. It touches on every ISKCON scandal from the viewpoint of a menial secretary working in the Los Angeles p.r. office, 1978 to 1988. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
Read this book if you are up for a sad story that will make you cry. It’s a quick read. The fastest I ever read it was six hours. Many people told me the book kept them up all night. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
If you read it online before January 2014, you read a bootlegged copy. Please go to Amazon right now and you can own a legal copy. This is the book’s first official release in electronic form. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
The editors of Hinduism Today called this “the most tragic betrayal." It is a bitter-sweet memoir of what could have been, and I invite you to share it with me today. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
Kindle works on any device that can access the Internet, except “Nook,” which only works with Barnes and Noble. The book will also appear on B&N, but you can get it at Amazon now for $10, just click this link:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
With respect,
Nori
=====================
Combining behind-the-scenes coverage of an often besieged religious group with a personal account of one woman's struggle to find meaning in it, Betrayal of the Spirit takes readers to the center of life in the Hare Krishna movement. Nori J. Muster joined the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)--the Hare Krishnas--in 1978, shortly after the death of the movement's spiritual master, and worked for ten years as a public relations secretary and editor of the organization's newspaper, the ISKCON World Review. In this candid and critical account, Muster follows the inner workings of the movement and the Hare Krishnas' progressive decline. Combining personal reminiscences, published articles, and internal documents, Betrayal of the Spirit details the scandals that beset the Krishnas--drug dealing, weapons stockpiling, deceptive fundraising, child abuse, and murder within ISKCON–as well as the dynamics of schisms that forced some 95 percent of the group's original members to leave. In the midst of this institutional disarray, Muster continued her personal search for truth and religious meaning as an ISKCON member until, disillusioned at last with the movement's internal divisions, she quit her job and left the organization. In a new preface to the paperback edition, Muster discusses the personal circumstances that led her to ISKCON and kept her there as the movement's image worsened. She also talks about "the darkest secret"–child abuse in the ISKCON parochial schools--that was covered up by the public relations office where she worked.
From Publishers Weekly
Perhaps the most colorful and aggressive of the Asian spiritual communities to take root on American shores was that of the Hare Krishnas, more formally known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). Who has not witnessed their American converts' dancing in the streets in their orange robes, confidently baring their shaven heads, or endured their fundraising efforts in airports? Against those finger cymbal-clanging memories of the 1970s, Muster's narrative of her insider's experience of ISKCON is nothing less than mesmerizing. That the American adventure into the worship of the noble Krishna would come to grief after the death of their ISKCON's charismatic Guru Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Praphupada in a scandal of murder, greed and corruption was perhaps not surprising to those who saw more than the Hare Krishna's superficial celebration of Krishna's love. For Muster, who worked for 10 years as a public relations secretary and editor of the organization's newpaper, the ISKCON World Review, the humiliation of ISKCON meant the loss of an admirable spiritual vision. Her narrative of that scandal confronts the ways in which traditional patriarchy and philosophical rigidity regularly defeated spiritual vitality. Muster's book is an important testimony that might be instructive to those involved in the leadership of any religious movement.
Copyright 1996 Cahners Business Information, Inc.
Review
"An important insider critique of a disturbing era in ISKON's history." - Publisher's Weekly "Scholars of religion will find much of value in Muster's thoughtful and well written account. Anti-cultists will find ammunition for their crusade as well." -- Catherine Wessinger, Nova Religio
[PADA: Not saying we agree to all the content of her book, but its contains a lot of factual research. Nandini was one of the few people to support the PADA effort in the early days, and we thank her for giving us a lot of "inside information" and credit her with extreme bravery to take on the bogus GBC's guru cult, which had (especially at the time) a reputation for severely oppressing critics. We are also very sorry for the way she and others like her were treated so badly in the name of Krishna. Anyway, her book title says it all, "Betrayal of the Spirit." That is what they did to her, and to thousands of others. ys pd]
Hare Krishna, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Today is Groundhog Day, my birthday, and I want to invite you to celebrate with me. Last month, my publisher released the e-book version of Betrayal of the Spirit. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
If you miss the real ISKCON of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and want to read a detailed summary of what you let happen to it, please read the book. It touches on every ISKCON scandal from the viewpoint of a menial secretary working in the Los Angeles p.r. office, 1978 to 1988. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
Read this book if you are up for a sad story that will make you cry. It’s a quick read. The fastest I ever read it was six hours. Many people told me the book kept them up all night. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
If you read it online before January 2014, you read a bootlegged copy. Please go to Amazon right now and you can own a legal copy. This is the book’s first official release in electronic form. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
The editors of Hinduism Today called this “the most tragic betrayal." It is a bitter-sweet memoir of what could have been, and I invite you to share it with me today. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
Kindle works on any device that can access the Internet, except “Nook,” which only works with Barnes and Noble. The book will also appear on B&N, but you can get it at Amazon now for $10, just click this link:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
With respect,
Nori
=====================
Combining behind-the-scenes coverage of an often besieged religious group with a personal account of one woman's struggle to find meaning in it, Betrayal of the Spirit takes readers to the center of life in the Hare Krishna movement. Nori J. Muster joined the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)--the Hare Krishnas--in 1978, shortly after the death of the movement's spiritual master, and worked for ten years as a public relations secretary and editor of the organization's newspaper, the ISKCON World Review. In this candid and critical account, Muster follows the inner workings of the movement and the Hare Krishnas' progressive decline. Combining personal reminiscences, published articles, and internal documents, Betrayal of the Spirit details the scandals that beset the Krishnas--drug dealing, weapons stockpiling, deceptive fundraising, child abuse, and murder within ISKCON–as well as the dynamics of schisms that forced some 95 percent of the group's original members to leave. In the midst of this institutional disarray, Muster continued her personal search for truth and religious meaning as an ISKCON member until, disillusioned at last with the movement's internal divisions, she quit her job and left the organization. In a new preface to the paperback edition, Muster discusses the personal circumstances that led her to ISKCON and kept her there as the movement's image worsened. She also talks about "the darkest secret"–child abuse in the ISKCON parochial schools--that was covered up by the public relations office where she worked.
From Publishers Weekly
Perhaps the most colorful and aggressive of the Asian spiritual communities to take root on American shores was that of the Hare Krishnas, more formally known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). Who has not witnessed their American converts' dancing in the streets in their orange robes, confidently baring their shaven heads, or endured their fundraising efforts in airports? Against those finger cymbal-clanging memories of the 1970s, Muster's narrative of her insider's experience of ISKCON is nothing less than mesmerizing. That the American adventure into the worship of the noble Krishna would come to grief after the death of their ISKCON's charismatic Guru Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Praphupada in a scandal of murder, greed and corruption was perhaps not surprising to those who saw more than the Hare Krishna's superficial celebration of Krishna's love. For Muster, who worked for 10 years as a public relations secretary and editor of the organization's newpaper, the ISKCON World Review, the humiliation of ISKCON meant the loss of an admirable spiritual vision. Her narrative of that scandal confronts the ways in which traditional patriarchy and philosophical rigidity regularly defeated spiritual vitality. Muster's book is an important testimony that might be instructive to those involved in the leadership of any religious movement.
Copyright 1996 Cahners Business Information, Inc.
Review
"An important insider critique of a disturbing era in ISKON's history." - Publisher's Weekly "Scholars of religion will find much of value in Muster's thoughtful and well written account. Anti-cultists will find ammunition for their crusade as well." -- Catherine Wessinger, Nova Religio
Hare Krishna, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Today is Groundhog Day, my birthday, and I want to invite you to celebrate with me. Last month, my publisher released the e-book version of Betrayal of the Spirit. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
If you miss the real ISKCON of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and want to read a detailed summary of what you let happen to it, please read the book. It touches on every ISKCON scandal from the viewpoint of a menial secretary working in the Los Angeles p.r. office, 1978 to 1988. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
Read this book if you are up for a sad story that will make you cry. It’s a quick read. The fastest I ever read it was six hours. Many people told me the book kept them up all night. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
If you read it online before January 2014, you read a bootlegged copy. Please go to Amazon right now and you can own a legal copy. This is the book’s first official release in electronic form. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
The editors of Hinduism Today called this “the most tragic betrayal." It is a bitter-sweet memoir of what could have been, and I invite you to share it with me today. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
Kindle works on any device that can access the Internet, except “Nook,” which only works with Barnes and Noble. The book will also appear on B&N, but you can get it at Amazon now for $10, just click this link:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00I14ZP16/steamboatshop
With respect,
Nori
=====================
Combining behind-the-scenes coverage of an often besieged religious group with a personal account of one woman's struggle to find meaning in it, Betrayal of the Spirit takes readers to the center of life in the Hare Krishna movement. Nori J. Muster joined the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)--the Hare Krishnas--in 1978, shortly after the death of the movement's spiritual master, and worked for ten years as a public relations secretary and editor of the organization's newspaper, the ISKCON World Review. In this candid and critical account, Muster follows the inner workings of the movement and the Hare Krishnas' progressive decline. Combining personal reminiscences, published articles, and internal documents, Betrayal of the Spirit details the scandals that beset the Krishnas--drug dealing, weapons stockpiling, deceptive fundraising, child abuse, and murder within ISKCON–as well as the dynamics of schisms that forced some 95 percent of the group's original members to leave. In the midst of this institutional disarray, Muster continued her personal search for truth and religious meaning as an ISKCON member until, disillusioned at last with the movement's internal divisions, she quit her job and left the organization. In a new preface to the paperback edition, Muster discusses the personal circumstances that led her to ISKCON and kept her there as the movement's image worsened. She also talks about "the darkest secret"–child abuse in the ISKCON parochial schools--that was covered up by the public relations office where she worked.
From Publishers Weekly
Perhaps the most colorful and aggressive of the Asian spiritual communities to take root on American shores was that of the Hare Krishnas, more formally known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). Who has not witnessed their American converts' dancing in the streets in their orange robes, confidently baring their shaven heads, or endured their fundraising efforts in airports? Against those finger cymbal-clanging memories of the 1970s, Muster's narrative of her insider's experience of ISKCON is nothing less than mesmerizing. That the American adventure into the worship of the noble Krishna would come to grief after the death of their ISKCON's charismatic Guru Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Praphupada in a scandal of murder, greed and corruption was perhaps not surprising to those who saw more than the Hare Krishna's superficial celebration of Krishna's love. For Muster, who worked for 10 years as a public relations secretary and editor of the organization's newpaper, the ISKCON World Review, the humiliation of ISKCON meant the loss of an admirable spiritual vision. Her narrative of that scandal confronts the ways in which traditional patriarchy and philosophical rigidity regularly defeated spiritual vitality. Muster's book is an important testimony that might be instructive to those involved in the leadership of any religious movement.
Copyright 1996 Cahners Business Information, Inc.
Review
"An important insider critique of a disturbing era in ISKON's history." - Publisher's Weekly "Scholars of religion will find much of value in Muster's thoughtful and well written account. Anti-cultists will find ammunition for their crusade as well." -- Catherine Wessinger, Nova Religio
It took Nori a long time to figure out what was going on, and she told everyone. Good for her. Even at personal risk. But what about the rest of us who didn't figure it out? I guess it was just our karma. Just like it was Sulochana's karma to have K. Swami give his wife and children to someone else and kill him.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Iskcon run by these GBC leaders could be
ReplyDeletewhat this Nandini (Nori J. Muster) is saying in her
book and probably much more. In fact her book
"Betrayal of the Spirit" has been around for quite
a few years now.
The Ritviks are the bastard off springs of that
bad Iskcon. Why should we accept them either.
Simply a case of the kettle calling the pot black.
Hare Krsna
OK Wyatt except you yourself said you are taking shelter of Prabhupada by reading his books, you are doing what we are doing, you are the same kettle as us. ys pd
ReplyDeleteRight, these so called moralists who always want to be nice fly off the handle when someone quotes Prabhupada. As soon you quote Prabhupada stating that a bona fide guru is as good as God and doesnt fall down these trolls attack you that this is speaking unpalatable truth. They argue that truth has to be palatable otherwise it should not be spoken. On the other hand having produced so far 45 false ISKCON gurus and thousands of victimized devotees, innumerable suicides, whole yatras disappeared, all this is for these adcovates of delicate manners nothing to worry about, normal, not worth mentioning. So there is some kind of severe mental disorder going on what is called deceit and fraudulent concealment. People in general are not that foolish, if you keep quiet about ISKCON's false guru problem then media strikes back calling you a culprit who commits knowing violation, concealment of facts. So these folks simply want to dupe new bhaktas into criminal behavior, complicity of crime.
ReplyDeleteWYATT: Not really. We may be the same in taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada, reading his books, following the regulative principles, deity worship but what you are doing, which is the practice of post samadhi ritvik initiation complete with name giving, beads chanting and the fire sacrifice performed by some ritvik practitioners who have self appointed themselves as ritvik representatives of Srila Prabhupada and then falsely informing the ritvik initiated devotees that they are Srila Prabhupada initiated disciples,
ReplyDelete[PADA: Whose disciples are they if the worship Prabhupada?]
This dear Puranjana dasa, we are not doing. Neither are we doing the preaching of the July 9th 1977 letter as interpreted by the foolish ritviks.
[PADA: You keep failing to answer the question, if they worship Srila Prabhupada, who else is their guru? You keep saying they have some other guru, who is that, is it Santa Claus, Charles Manson, just tell us, if they worship Srila Prabhupada, who else is their guru. You never tell us, who else is their guru? ys pd]
If you worship Lord Brahma as your guru does that make him obligated to be your guru?
ReplyDelete[PADA: Who told you to do that? This is a concoction.]
If you worship Rupa Goswami as your guru, Lord Caitanya, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Goura Kishora Das Babaji Maharaja or Queen Kunti as your guru does that stupid sentiment make them accept you as their disicples?
[PADA: Why are you asking us something that none of us ever said?]
Where is the letter stating that any FOOL can appoint himself a ritvik rep of Srila Prabhupada and then whomever he "intiates" will automagically become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada?
[PADA: We never said that any fools can be a rtivk, the GBC says fools are acharyas, and that acharyas are debauchess. We never said fools should be allowed to act as brahmanas.]
Where did Prabhupada say, "I have started ritvik initiations but they will NEVER stop"?.
[PADA: We never said there would never be another guru later on, and that the ritviks system would never stop? We said that the guru has to be authorized, and the GBC says, no, the guru is engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children, and if you do not agree, you have to leave. You are arguing with your own shadow, we never said any of these things, you are making this up. You also forgot to explain who is the guru for the people who worship Srila Prabhupada? Is is Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, you never tell us? ys pd]
Not really. We may be the same in taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada, reading his books, following the regulative principles, deity worship but what you are doing, which is the practice of post samadhi ritvik initiation complete with name giving, beads chanting and the fire sacrifice performed by some ritvik practitioners who have self appointed themselves as ritvik representatives of Srila Prabhupada and then falsely informing the ritvik initiated devotees that they are Srila Prabhupada initiated disciples, this dear Puranjana dasa, we are not doing.
ReplyDelete[PADA: You keep saying that the people who worship Srila Prabhupada cannot have him as their guru, but you keep forgetting to tell us, who ELSE is their guru then? Srila Prabhupada says that the people who worship Jesus have accepted Jesus as their guru.You are saying, when someone worships a pure devotee as his guru, he is not worshiping a pure devotee as his guru? I have no idea what you are rambling on about here? If people worship Srila Prabhupada as their guru, he is not their guru? WHY? Because they do not have your official Vatican rubber stamp? Only those persons who are officially rubber stamped by your Vatican votes are his devotees? Really? How come our devotees follow things better than the GBC gurus, they are not debauchees, for the most part anyway. We do not need your Vatican rubber stamp to worship pure devotees?]
Neither are we doing the preaching of the July 9th 1977 letter as interpreted by the foolish ritviks. Hare Krsna
[PADA: I was worshiping Srila Prabhupada in 1970, and telling others to do the same then, I do not need a letter to inform me that is the right idea, the July 9th letter simply confirms what I was doing already, telling people to worship pure devotees as their guru. You never tell us whom else we should promote as the guru? You have none, so when you finally figure out what guru people need to surrender to, let us know. We already know what guru to give others, you have not figured that out yet. We have. I knew in 1970 I was going to promote Srila Prabhupada, and I did that all along, he is my guru, so its my duty to give him to others. Of course even my Christian little old lady neighbor with ten cats knows, she has to promote her guru Lord Jesus, she knows who to promote as the guru, you do not, she is more advanced than Wyatt. She knows who to promote as the guru, she has advanced way past Wyatt, he is rudderless and guru-less. ys pd]
Pod, what you have said about Bhakta Whyutt Prabhu is outrageously offenisve! Some old karmi cat lady who probably talks to her cats and feeds them meat cat food "has advanced way past wyatt"? He is rudderless and guru-less?
ReplyDelete[PADA: The old woman with cats knows that -- the people who worship Jesus are disciples of Jesus, yes, she has better understanding of guru Tattva than Wyatt. Wyatt does not even know that the worshipers of a guru are disciples of that guru, yes he is rudderless and guru-less. He also forgets to tell us, if they are not disciples of Prabhupada, then who are they disciples of, Santa Claus? The old woman knows who to teach others about as the guru, Wyatt does not have a clue.]
"I was worshiping Srila Prabhupada in 1970". Big whoop.
[PADA: And our understanding then was that we would promote Srila Prabhupada as the guru after he departed, big whoop? Well what do you think we should do, promote you as the guru? Just tell us what your idea is.]
We all would have had we had the chance. But those who were initiated by him, instead of feeling how fallen they are for not following him completely, are FALSELY PROUD OF THEIR INITIATIONS ONLY!
[PADA: Most of the people who follow our idea TODAY are second generation people, who never were part of ISKCON until way after 1977. Most of our people were never initiated by Srila Prabhupada, but yes I am proud of them for accepting him, why not?]
That is their only claim to fame, and they will remind you of it at every possible opportunity. Little do they realize this statement, rather than impress us to no end, only makes us feel sorry for how miserably you have failed your guru. You have left ISKCON and now you criticize those who have stayed. You have sued Prabhupada's movement claiming you saved the gurukulis while just as many died after the lawsuit as before.
[PADA: Proves you do not know what happened. Anyway, at least we did something, you just wanted them to die with no relief at all.]
And you never seem to give a damn about anyone else who joined after 1977, because they are on
[PADA: Most of the devotees who follow our idea, say for example in Bangalore, Russia, Ukraine, China, Taiwan, New Zealand, Sunnyvale, here in Berkeley etc., were never part of ISKCON before 1977. Most of our sympathizers and readers are from post-1977, no, we are not catering to the "original initiates," very few of the originals follow what we are doing, or even care one iota, or even agree, Our stuff is mainly being accepted by second and now third generations. We are working with only a few ORIGINAL God brothers, most of our CURRENT readers and sympathizers folks are post-1977 people, and that is a fact. You are re-writing history. We do not care if people were there before 1977 or not, nor have we ever made that an issue, we accept anyone who worships Srila Prabhupada as our God brothers and sisters, period. ys pd]
You just don't get it! You can't just pick a guru out of thin air and say he has accepted you!
ReplyDelete[PADA: No one is doing that? They read the books, then accept. How come our nice devotees in so many places are not falling down into illicit sex with men, women and children like the GBC gurus program has been doing? Because our people read the books. If you have a better program than ours, where is it? You have none, its thin air just like you said.]
Prabhupada said the Christians are following Jesus Christ because at the last supper Jesus told his disciples to break bread and drink wine and "Do this in memory of me". He gave them that order.
[PADA: No, Prabhupada said that Jesus can still take the sins of his followers now, because he is their guru now.]
But with Prabhupada the opposite was there. He told his disciples to become guru many many times.
[PADA: Kindergaten children are supposed to become brain surgeons, fine, but they are not surgeons yet.]
And he never rescinded that order. He did not say if you do not become qualified to become guru he would continue to be the guru for as long as it takes for one to appear.
[PADA: You keep failing to mention the name of the person who is authorized? Thin air, nothing, zero, nada, neine, zilch, you never name the person who is authorized? Thin air indeed, you have no air, its all 100 percent bluff from you folks.]
Instead he said if you do not follow he would have to come back and start things all over again. You are not following you have changed things. You conveniently state you are not saying no one can ever be a guru, while at the same time you are proclaiming even in 1970 your understanding was Prabhupada wanted to remain guru posthumously. Well your understanding is not backed by guru sadhu and sastra, but you have cheated hundreds into on
[PADA: Like I said, your guru, Mr. Non-existing Thin Air PADA, he no existence. Your guru does not exist except in your feeble brain. Tell us who your guru is, or you are arguing with your own shadow, you said our idea is thin air, except we have many people following it, so its not thin air, whereas your idea, worship the non-existing phantom guru, has no existence whatsoever. You program does not have a guru, a temple, a book, a disciple, or any other evidence of existence whatsoever. Its all bluff. ys pd]
WYATT: One may worship Srila Prabhupada as his guru through his vani but how does that make one his initiated disciple?
ReplyDelete[PADA: Srila Prabhupada says that his books are giving the divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha. We have identified our source of diksha, Wyatt never does? At least we have a source of divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha), Wyatt never tells us what is his source?]
As his follower, yes but as his initiated disciple ??? "Madhudvisa: His question was that can you take initiation by accepting the spiritual master in your heart without actually taking... Prabhupada: These are bogus proposition. It has no meaning. (laughter) It has no meaning. If you think within yourself, "I am eating," will you be satisfied? You starve and simply think, "I have eaten everything. " (laughter) Is that very practical proposal? You must eat. We don't say all these bogus proposition." So, you see, Puranjana dasa, unlike you, your spiritual master is a straight talker. He considers what you are saying as bogus proposition. ( This was posted yesterday but was not published) Hare Krsna o
[PADA: Most of the devotees of ISKCON either never met Srila Prabhupada in person, or maybe at best they saw him give a lecture once in a while, no, mostly they met him through his through his vani and books. And they still are. Wyatt thinks Srila Prabhupada was bogus for initiating people by letters of recomendation from the temple presidents and so on, he is another Gaudiya Matha person. Srila Prabhupada did not have to meet them in person, they already had a vani connection. Notice that Wyatt never tells us what is the source of his divyam jnanam which destroys sins, aka diksha? At least we have some source, he has identified zero. In any case, our devotees are following, the GBC gurus are in constant tail spins, our system works. Also look at the article we just posted on science, what kind of gurus do they have there? At least George A Smith has a better idea than most of the GBC gurus, and he got his ideas from the books. ys pd]
ReplyDeletePod, Okay so most of the devotees did not even meet Prabhupada. But he authorized ritviks to help him and told them to basically just accept whomever the temple presidents recommended and initiated a backlog of devotees towards the end. Here Wyatt is quoting Prabhupada that "We don't say all these bogus proposition." but then you turn around and say, "Our devotees are following." Following who? You? Or some other ritvik person who is imagining Prabhupada is still accepting disciples when he NEVER EVER SAID HE WOULD ACCEPT DISCIPLES POST MORTEM, AFTER HE LEFT THE PLANET, OR WHATEVER TERM YOU WISH TO USE! Prabhupada: These are bogus proposition. It has no meaning. (laughter). Then you say, "At least we have some source, he has identified zero.". YOUR "SOURCE" IS ZERO! Prabhupada: It has no meaning. Just because you have absolutely no faith in any devotee who has stayed in ISKCON instead of leaving due to a need for correcting the movement above and beyond cooperating until things on
[PADA: But you never tell us who is the living guru now? You have none, its all bluff. You have no guru, no temple, no books, zero, at least we have something. Zero is nothingness, you have zero guru, zero disicples, zero preaching, zero is zero. We want to see your program in action, there is no program, you have zero. You could not save a chipmunk because you have zero to preach about. Show us what your program is, then we can see what you are doing. So far you are doing zero. ys pd]
One may worship Srila Prabhupada as his guru through his vani but how does that make one his initiated disciple ? As his follower, yes but as his initiated disciple ??? "Madhudvisa: His question was that can you take initiation by accepting the spiritual master in your heart without actually taking... Prabhupada: These are bogus proposition. It has no meaning. (laughter) It has no meaning. If you think within yourself, "I am eating," will you be satisfied? You starve and simply think, "I have eaten everything. " (laughter) Is that very practical proposal? You must eat. We don't say all these bogus proposition." So, you see, Puranjana dasa, unlike you, your spiritual master is a straight talker. He considers what you are saying as bogus proposition. ( This was posted yesterday but was not published) Hare Krsna on
ReplyDelete[PADA: Good example Wyattt, your living gurus like Hrdayananda can be defeated even by George A Smith, since your living gurus are a joke. You keep saying your program have a living guru, but you do not mention his name, that is because we already know these living gurus, they are all bluffers. You have so far not identified one single other person who follows your idea, there is none, you are a zero. ys pd]
Pad, Wyatt and I both agree so there is one other person who follows his idea, which is Srila Prabhupada's idea. Your's on the other hand is unauthorized, so it is absolutely zero. Prabhupada's idea is to carry on the disciplic succession, the one beginning with Lord Krishna.
ReplyDelete[PADA: And the GBC says the guru parampara is infested with illicit sex with men, women and children. That means they have no guru parampara.]
Since you are not on the uttama adhikari platform apparently you cannot tell who is to be followed and who is not to be followed among your own godbrothers.
[PADA: The GBC has wrote all kinds of position papers since 1979 saying that gurus fall down into deviations. Not one of the GBC gurus has ever come out and said that this is all bogus, Srila Prabhupada and folks like Puranjan are correct, we cannot say the parampara is contaminated like this. Which of them is saying that?]
All we know is that you are not to be followed, because if you were qualified you would see the good qualities in others, instead of thinking no one is qualified at all. By stating no one is qualified at all, you are revealing that in fact you are less than an animal, because you cannot follow the principles yourself. I can name ten gurus in alphabetical order who are bona fide in ISKCON today and here is the list:
[PADA: OK well your list did not come through since comments cut off at one paragraph. In any case, let me know if any of them are saying the GBC idea that acharyas fall down into debauchery is a bogus idea. ys pd]
Wyatt: Lets face it, dear Puranjana dasa.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Wyatt but here for example in the San Francisco Bay area, there are hundreds of people who are accepting our idea that Srila Prabhupada is their current acharya. They are never going to change thinking that way -- unless you can come up with a solid alternative, and you have not done so.
To be honest, you have not even shown us where even one chipmunk follows your idea, what to speak of one human. No one is following your idea, because it has no practical application, its just Wyatt and himself, there is no temple, no books, no guru, no followers, no nothing, its a big fat zero.
No one is going to give up worship of the acharya to worship your idea, lets worship a zero? You have to show us where your idea is being applied, and there is none. Zero. You have not produced the name of one temple anywhere on earth where your idea is being followed, we have many centers and preaching programs where our idea is followed, our idea is not a zero, it has practical application. You never tell us where your idea is being done, ever. There is none, its all bluff. ys pd
Pada, many times I have replied to you and you have conveniently just cut off the post.
ReplyDelete[PADA: No the comment get cut off after one paragraph.]
Your logic that the GBC makes mistakes and therefore is completely bogus does not hold true.
[PADA: The GBC says acharyas engage in illicit sex, that is not a mistake, that is their intent to say that over and over and over and over. They say that over and over, its not a one time mistake, its their program for 35 years.]
Prabhupada never said the GBC would be perfect. He said to hold a meeting each year at Mayapura, which is coming up, and make a decision, then hold to that decision for the entire year. If things do not work out they can change the decision the next year.
[PADA: Oh great, so when the GBC votes in 100 messiahs, they could be making a mistake, and then they will kick out their messiahs they mistakenly voted in. That sounds like a real practical idea! Here is the successor to God, ooops, nope, he is a rascal, sorry!]
So if you disagree with the present statements made by the GBC, or if you can dig up an old quote from Jayadvaita Swami about how the gurus are fallen, or if you can dig up an old BTG quote about how Satsvarupa says his old bud Kirtanananda is as good as Christ WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA SAID?
[PADA: They have made hundreds of papers saying gurus are making mistakes, gurus are falling down, etc. These papers are still valid today, they are making the same statements all along up to today. None of these papers has been withdrawn?]
Nada, zip, zero. Prabhupada said the GBC should make decisions.
[PADA: No, he said its the mad elephant offense to say gurus are falling down, he thus says that the GBC are these mad elephant offenders. He never said we should follow the mad elephant offenders?]
He didn't say if they ever fail to make perfect decisions then they are all, each and every one of them, 100% fallen. Why then do you make such inferences?
[PADA: They are saying they are acharyas, now you are saying, acharyas make mistakes, acharyas are fallen, acharyas are debauchees, acharyas are falling into illicit sex, gurusuh narah mati narkah sah, Srila Prabhupada says, that means you folks residents of hell, narakah, no one is allowed to say the guru is defective and conditioned. That is hellish, now you are saying, gurus are defective, narakah sah, hellish idea. ys pd]
Pea (brained) Pod, Your entire last paragraph is false. I am saying just the opposite. I said nothing of the kind (that gurus are defective). I said PRABHUPADA set up a Governing Body.
ReplyDelete[PADA: And in 1979 the GBC body said that acharyas fall into illicit sex and drugs. Jayatirtha was taking drugs and having illicit sex, and they said, he is an acharya, a member of the parampara etc. and if you do not agree you have to leave. And they have wrote many subsequent position papers, stated in lectures etc. that gurus fall down. The GBC has no authority to say the guru falls down and the parampara is defective. You keep avoiding the point, who authorized the GBC to say the parampara is full of defective people and even debauchees?]
HE told them to do the best they can. YOU believe no one can follow the four regs. YOU even say if you can't follow at your project it is alright. But I say some do follow in ISKCON. You asked me for the list and
[PADA: The GBC has said all along that gurus fall down, it does not matter if they are doing their best or whatever it is, they have no authority to attack the integrity of the parampara / successors to Krishna by saying the guru is defective and fallen. ys pd]
An quote from a conversation that took place in Topanga Canyon Pyramid House on December 3, 1980. Tamal Krishna, Hansadutta, Dhira Krishna, Kirtiraja, Jayadwaita and others were present. "Devotee: I'd like to say one thing because I didn't hear the tapes, but I saw the transcripts of the conversations with Srila Prabhupada, and one thing that actually convinced me that there was no appointment because when it got to the point that you asked Srila Prabhupada, "Well, what about India?" and Srila Prabhupada said, "I am here." So it was apparent that Srila Prabhupada WASN'T speaking of the FUTURE because when you asked him, "What about India?" Srila Prabhupada said, "I am here." Tamal Krsna Goswami: EXACTLY. " Lets face it, dear Puranjana dasa. You know and I know that this whole ritvik propaganda of the July 9th 1977.
ReplyDelete[PADA: OK in that same conversation Tamal said there was no appointment of 11 gurus, this is a myth. The problem is that you are mixing up managers, ok the GBC, with acharyas, the pure devotees. The GBC gurus say they are both pure as God gurus, at the same time fallible managers. Sorry, you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say that the manager is as good as the messiah. You admit the GBC makes mistakes, falls down and etc, that means their claim to being perfected gurus is a lie. We are not saying that there never will be another guru, we are saying since they admit they lied in Topanga, liars are not gurus. ys pd]
PADA: All I know is that here in San Francisco area there are several hundred people who worship Srila Prabhupada as their acharya, including us, and they are never going to stop that, its a done deal. There is no other alternate movement being accepted here, because no one else has shown a better process.
ReplyDeleteThere is no example of any "better idea." As for the GBC admitting things, they still say that Krishna's gurus fall down even today, they said that all along and they still do. They have not ever admitted they were wrong to claim that God's successors are fools and debauchees.
If they have ever made a position paper saying they have been offensive for saying the parampara is contaminated, where is that paper?
Wyatt you are a giant bluffer, they never wrote such a paper or we would have heard about it by now. They said that acharyas deviate in 1979, and they wrote that in many papers, said that in many lectures, and they have never declared those papers as retracted, rather even recently people like Danavir are saying God's successors gurus are often falling down. They have never admitted this is wrong, ever, they are still saying that today. Wyatt quit your bluffing, show us their document where they have stated that attacking the parampara as full of debauchery is wrong? You cannot show us such a paper, its another zero from you, this retraction paper does not exist. 100 percent bluff. ys pd
Pod, when did Prabhupada say if the GBC doesn't fulfill the demands of Pod and print a retraction paper then they are bogus, but if they do then they are bona-fide? And if they did print a retraction, then what?
ReplyDelete[PADA: The GBC said starting in 1979 that guru fall down and they still say that, so anyone who says gurus fall down is a resident of narakah. Gurusuh narah matih narakah sah, I did not say they have to retract that, shastra says they have to retract that. Its also one of the ten offenses to consider gurus as ordinary and fallen. You do not even know what the ten offenses are, never mind aything else.]
Did Prabhupada write a statement saying he would never fall down?
[PADA: The GBC has wrote many documents says acharyas fall down, yes, they are saying that people like Srila Prabhupada fall down, yes, they have said that in writing. No, they have not retracted those writings. Yes, you have not shown us any proof they have retracted, yes that means you bluffed when you said they admited this was faulty, they never admited, their documents have not been retracted, you bluffed.]
Wyatt said Prabhupada said "I am here!" He wasn't even talking about Guru appointments in any way shape or form.
[PADA: Right, so the guru appointment was bogus, what were they appointed as then? ys pd]
LOL OH POD Devotees laugh in your face and also behind you when you are a ritvik. I like how you cut out the parts of the things I write that you can't defeat.
ReplyDelete[PADA: The GBC says gurus engage in illicit sex, and that is why their temples are empty, no one wants to worship illicit sex.]
"Oh but Prabhu, the GBC didn't print a RETRACTION! Boo hoo hoo, wah wah wah.". Great logic prabhu, but it only will satisfy a kindergarden student until he graduates and enters the first grade. Then no more nap time, and no more belief in ritviks.
[PADA: Right, well the GBC temples are empty, and many are closed down. Our program is expanding, so do the math, we are winning. ys pd]