Sunday, December 15, 2013

Rocana And The "Second Coming of Jesus" Syndrome

[PADA Note: Rocana has said that everything will be solved when the next acharya appears, he thinks there will be a second coming of Jesus. Apparently, he has some following. That is also why Rocana has no temples, no devotees, no programs, no nothing. Hardly no one wants to follow a religion where you have to sit on a hill and await the second coming of Jesus. Its not working. 

Our idea is working, we should worship the acharya NOW! And if another acharya appears, fine, but in the meantime we have devotees, programs, temples and so on -- that worship the acharya Srila Prabhupada NOW -- and that is why our program is growing and Rocana's is going nowhere for 40 years. 

We even have a nice Prabhupadanuga program in Vancouver where Rocana lives. We Prabhupadanugas started something there, and in a year it has grown nicely, Rocana has sat there forever and he has nothing to show for his preaching, ... i.e. that you have to stop everything and sit on a hill, and wait for the next acharya. ys pd] 

IRM, "Ritviks" and so….


Part I .

All glories to Rocana prabhu and all his Sampradaya Sun staff! Even if sometimes I don't agree with him or I think he is too much on insignificant details, his and their service is great. It is very important to have such valuable independent media for Krsna Consciousness. Without freedom of speech and information given by SS, or other blogs or papers like that, how could devotees be aware of different truths and opinions? We would have only the Pravda, the official ISKCON propaganda, and so would stay in a totalitarian system which would not help anyone, neither simple devotees nor GBC and gurus themselves. So, all glories also to the Internet, maybe created to help Lord Caitanya's Movement.

Because the "ritvik" subject is still relevant today (so many devotees are still fighting nowadays for this idea), I would like to speak a little about it, if it is possible. Being French, I will try to perfect my English as much as possible but it will stay limited anyway. Please forgive me. Other point: when I will write "devotee", of course, it means as well "female devotee".

These last years, I had many contacts with persons in charge of the IRM, especially for France, and I noticed a very fanatic and narrow minded brain, generally a poor intelligence, a very medium sincerity and latent personal ambitions which were more or less similar to what the IRM denounces about ISKCON managers and gurus. But, in spite of all those things, I think we must acknowledge that basically, on some points, they are right, and Srila Prabhupada never appointed any gurus in 1977.

[PADA: Srila Prabhupada says we have to take gold even from a dirty place, thus, while it may be true that some of the Prabhupadanugas have good, bad or ugly character, they are right on the main issues. The main issue is -- that there was no appointment of gurus, its a lie. And therefore the worship of Srila Prabhupada should be continued, since these people are not qualified for worship.]

Even the ISKCON official position is very close to that -- the Srila Prabhupada never put anyone ahead and above. 

[PADA: Wrong, the official position of ISKCON is that a few elite people like Jayapataka, Hrdayananda, Satsvarupa and others are STILL appointed as gurus, -- and that they in turn "appointed" another 100 gurus by "voting" them in. And that ALL these elite people are all appointed / voted as gurus, and ALL the rest of the God brothers are subordinated to this elite group. The guru appointment lie has never been dis-mantled in ISKCON, rather it has now expanded into the "guru by vote lie." They have merely appointed another wave of gurus. In sum, they still say that Srila Prabhupada put them ahead of everyone else as gurus.] 

*** And some gurus (Tamala Krsna Maharaja or Jayadvaita Maharaja) or ex-gurus (Hansadutta das) seem to have said or obviously said in the past that actually, Prabhupada appointed only ritviks, at least on a temporary basis. However, for those gurus, it did not change very much their way of acting.

[PADA: Right, even though they admit the guru appointment is a lie, they continue to act as gurus: "we robbed the bank, and we are keeping the money."]

*** Furthermore, it looks like we have also some kind of written proof with this paper from Srila Prabhupada on July the 9th of 1977 and the crazy activities of some Zonal Acaryas after 1977 which show that it would have been very strange that Prabhupada could consider those persons to be qualified to become acaryas! So, the question is not so much there. It is more an assessment of the real consequences of all this mess.

If we listen to the IRM, if the ritvik system would have been applied after Srila Prabhupada's departure, everything would have gone on the same, as powerfully and as harmoniously as when Prabhupada was in the planet. 

[PADA: No one ever said there would not be "troubles," even in a ritvik system. There would have been SOME types of problems, however maverick messiahs, and subsequent banning, beating, molesting and assassinating would not have been among of those problems. The problems would have been less severe.] 

*** Personally, I don't believe that, even one second. Their argument is that the physical presence of the Acarya is not at all important and that following the instructions, being the most essential, nothing changes after the Acarya's departure if we follow those instructions. Of course, it was Srila Prabhupada's way to encourage devotees, but what else could he say?

[PADA: I am not sure what else he could have said either? He said follow my instructions, yes, that is all he could say, and instead -- they lied that they had been appointed as gurus.]

*** The IRM falls in its own trap. If the physical presence of the Acarya has no importance, how do they explain that this dirty trick of the "bogus gurus" happened or at least succeeded, only after Prabhupada's departure and not when he was on this planet? Why disciples, on the whole, were following the Acarya's instructions when Prabhupada was on this planet and, according to them, did not do that anymore, or much less, when the acarya left this world? So the truth is that it's much better to have Srila Prabhupada physically present on Earth, with us, than the contrary.

[PADA: And its better to have Krishna, Jesus, Lord Chaitanya, Srila Prabhupada and others on the planet as well, but they are not on the planet, so NOW we have to deal with their instructions. How is it "a trap" to say -- we have to follow the instructions?]

*** On the other hand, sometimes, when he was physically here, it was better to serve him and his mission in separation than just to stay physically very close to him and not do real substantial service. The fact is that when Lord Krsna left this planet, 5,000 years ago, different inauspicious phenomenon manifested themselves (see 1st Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam) and Kali Yuga immediately started. When Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu left, troubles came as well. When Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja left, the full mess started in the Gaudiya Matha. As well, problems have increased a lot in ISKCON since 1977.

Srila Prabhupada told us in his books: when the acarya leaves, chaos starts. And if following his instructions could avoid that, the fact is that we don't follow them anymore or less, what does not happen when the acarya is still physically there. My own experience is that except for some of the first eleven during Zonal Acarya time, generally ISKCON gurus publically put Prabhupada ahead and never pretended to be themselves at the same level as Prabhupada. I never heard any one of them saying that they could bring his disciples directly to Krsna. 

[PADA: Generally, all of the second tier ISKCON gurus still say that the original zonal gurus were made into acharyas and they do not contest these big leaders, or how they attained that post (by lies), even today. And they imply that they are going to take their followers to Krishna by saying -- we have to worship them as gurus. It does not matter if they say "directly" (or not) that they are going to take their disciples back to Godhead, they are saying they are diksha gurus in the parampara, so they are implying that they are the saviors of others.]

*** Of course, I am not in their intimacy with their followers and it is possible that disciples think differently. And, of course, it would be better to follow Prabhupada's instructions on this subject of diksa. It maybe would have saved us from many bad things and abuse of power. But mature devotees know that those gurus are not at the same level as Srila Prabhupada.

[PADA: Yes, you said it very nicely, they are all on the level of liars, the 11 lied that they had been appointed, and the next wave lied that the 11 had the potency to vote in another wave of gurus. Also correct; Mature devotees know these self-appointed GBC guru folks are not gurus, that is why the mature devotees are being shunned, banned, beaten and assassinated, and driven out.]

In France, till some years ago, we even had a kanistha officiating as guru and GBC. 

[PADA: OK so if you have kanisthas acting as officiating gurus, that means they are ritviks.]

*** So we are not in illusion about that. But those gurus have drawn or maintained persons in goodness or high goodness. It is not so bad. Who in this world would fly at this altitude? However, what about the puja (worship) they receive and accept, and the huge amount of money which comes from this adoration, all supposed to be illicit because coming from supposed illicit status of diksa guru? Personally, I am not convinced that fundamentally, it has changed in a huge way the destiny of ISKCON and the planet (because neophyte devotees generally are moved by some kind and some percentage of sentimental feelings which it would be more difficult for them to have for a non-physically-present guru ) but apparently, therefore, it should not be.

[PADA: OK, good, there has been a lot of money being siphoned off by these gurus, and that explains why there was no money to feed, clothe and maintain many of the gurukuli kids, the kids money was being stolen by these gurus for their "personal adoration" and opulent living. 

So, that is a crime against the children of ISKCON. This was not "the destiny" of ISKCON and its children, its what these leaders wanted and created themselves. Otherwise we are saying "the children just got their karma" -- which means, all of this was pre-destined. Of course, a fallen devotee started to eat hamburgers and he told us that was ok because: These cows are pre-destined to be made into hamburgers in Kali Yuga. Sorry, even if it is destined that a person has to suffer, its not our job to dish out that suffering. 

We do not think it was the karma of all these devotees to suffer, rather the leaders wanted to deviate and exploit the society, the assets, and exploit the children etc. And so they created a policy to ban, beat and kill others who protested, and they did so, but they did not have to. It was their choice. It was also the free will choice of the rank and file members not to help us and Sulochana protest, and so the rank and file helped allow all these crimes to go on unchecked by their conspiracy of silence.]

*** But to arouse such hatred from the IRM or other Ritvik groups, that is a step that should not be done. 

[PADA: Normally, when a society is being brutalized by dictators who are banning, beating, creating mass child molesting and using murders to silence dissenters, there is hatred for the leaders who are responsible. That is expected? And if its not expected, then what, we should be happy to see these crimes?]

*** Seeing fanatically only the dark side of things is the manifestation of not only noble intentions but surely, also, of a big amount of envy. Personally, I am not at all envious about the worship and the money of all those gurus. It is not high standard enough for me and still too much materially contaminated, so I could become envious about it. I even prefer the wonderful life Krsna gave me these last 10 years, for want of anything better, means doing something really interesting in ISKCON during this period.

[PADA: So when dissenters say the dictatorship has a policy of mass banning, beating, molesting and killing people, that means the dissenters are envious? That would make the Pandavas envious, because they protested the evil Kauravas? No, opposing evil behavior is not envy in all cases? That would also make the police envious of the criminals? So this is why there has been so many crimes in ISKCON, as soon as anyone opposes crimes, he is "envious" and the crimes continue. If we say anyone who protests evil is envious, then the evil policy will win, as it has in ISKCON.]

*** But anyway, why should all that arouse all this hatred? Things are always done in a nice way. Nobody ever got anything he did not deserve. Who can say the contrary? It would be denying Krsna and the supremacy of Krsna's natural laws. And if, however, we think that those gurus get something they don't deserve, maybe those things are not as great as we imagine. Or they will have as results very strong reactions that we would not like to have for ourselves. So, in one way or other, Krsna's law is respected. No good reason to develop such hatred.

[PADA: Again, the police do not hate or envy the criminals, but they have to try to contain the criminals. Why is it always "envious" and "hateful" to protest criminal behaviors?] 

*** And about the "poor victims" the IRM says the disciples of those gurus are, the point is that nobody is ever forced anyway to accept a spiritual master or to let himself be cheated or manipulated if it is happening. If someone is really sincere, he first takes shelter of Srila Prabhupada or the Holy Names and he will be protected from those deviations.

[PADA: No, there is no "free choice" in ISKCON. When people do not worship these gurus they are shunned, banned, beaten and sometimes killed. That means the GBC guru program is forcing people to accept their position as gurus. And now the GBC gurus are spending perhaps $20,000,000 (that $20 million) dollars suing us in India, to try to force us to accept their gurus. They force people to worship them as gurus -- and if you chose not to, you can be banned, beaten, sued ... and you can die. That means they force people to accept them.]

*** When I was a young devotee, in France, I never fully surrendered myself, body and soul to Bhagavan for instance, and I was his disciple. Even if it was more instinctive than intellectually understood, I was first taking shelter of the maha-mantra and to an inferior extent of Prabhupada's books, and after, under this protection, I was listening to Bhagavan. Sure, I would not have done that if I were dealing with a real pure devotee. That attitude saved me and protected me from so many problems, even if, at this time, this kind of behaviour was very badly not accepted by everyone, especially authorities of course. But, dogs bark and the caravan goes on.

[PADA: OK so you are following the ritvik idea, take shelter of Srila Prabhupada, read his books, and take shelter of the holy name and so on. That is exactly our idea.]

*** Another point is that sometimes, disciples themselves MAKE the guru or make the guru absolute. The guru himself has very little to do. Just to start the process and sometimes not even that! Sometimes disciples imagine they get the guru's mercy, but maybe the guru takes more his disciples unconscious mercy than they get their guru's mercy. Of course, ISKCON votes the gurus in. But after, the process can be a little strange… some disciples just need someone to worship to free their own energy and ability. Guru's mercy sometimes is not something one can really check. Who can really say what's the part of imagination and self suggestion in that?

[PADA: People think their gurus are absolute because that is what shastra says, the guru is absolute, so these GBC gurus are claiming to be absolute direct or de facto.]

*** Sometimes, like with Jayapataka M. for instance, we can even see that it can happen that the guru is overwhelmed by his disciples and can't control them on some occasions. And there's the fact that those disciples make the guru so powerful that the GBC must themselves be a little submissive to this guru. It is not so much the fact of the guru himself.

[PADA: So these gurus create violent cults out of their followers, and the rest of the GBC has to submit. Agreed. Why is that a good idea?]

*** So, sure, things, are probably very imperfect but the fact is that on the whole, Srila Prabhupada's work is still there, even if things are spiritually going down. 

[PADA: Spiritually things are going down, ok agreed, that is not what Srila Prabhupada wanted? If things are going down, that is a sign of deterioration. Eventually we have a few buildings run by a few old men, like the Gaudiya Matha.] 

*** Temples are still there, even if more empty than before, books still are being printed, even if the content has changed a little or more etc… And about the big imperfections this system has created, we must not accept that and renounce to see the things being changed but as well, we should be a little fatalistic because we cannot counter that. If the GBC is not able to do that, what to say about us or the IRM or others! I don't think those gurus are very much frightened by Krsna Kant Desai or others. So we depend on Krsna for the changes we wish.

[PADA: We should be fatalistic and accept all these deviations? OK, that's really going to help!]

*** To criticize is easy, but if we would have had to rely on the IRM, for example, or big criticizers to maintain Srila Prabhupada's work and properties, my opinion is that it all would have been lost or almost, since a long time. So easy to accept to help only when things become perfect!!!!

[PADA: OK, but you just said they are not maintaining things, the temples are empty, the books are being changed, and we should just be fatalistic and accept these changes. Sorry, some of us will protest, and if we are, is that not also Krishna's energy working? Why are not the protesters part of Krishna too? Devotees have told us this for years, just relax, do nothing, and let Krishna work all this out. OK, but we are also parts of Krishna, maybe He wanted us to help him sweep up the temple with a broom?] 

*** But anyway, all those problems will very soon be solved. Unlike them, I very strongly believe in the next acarya's arrival and in the appearance of other acaryas following this one. That is the most important point. Why should we be too much in anxiety? Almost 30 years between Bhaktisiddhanta's departure and Srila Prabhupada's coming. And now, 36 years since Prabhupada left the planet. So, we are in time! Nothing wrong about it. We can keep hope.

[PADA: This is the Rocana idea, we need to await the second coming of Jesus, which is going to happen next week. We had some Christian preacher here in San Francisco who got all his people to sell their houses, give up their jobs and everything else, and go to a hill top to await the next coming of Jesus. Great idea! 

Ooops, what if Jesus does not come? And you already sold your house and have no job and nowhere to live now? Srila Prabhupada never discussed this second coming of the messiah idea? Its speculation. Another pure devotee may or might appear, its called mental speculation. Waiting for the next messiah is what some of the Christians are doing, but that fanatical group is rejected by the main body of Christians who say -- this is speculation. In the meantime most Christians are not waiting, they are worshiping Jesus now, and so should we worship our acharya Srila Prabhupada NOW using the same idea.]

*** So the next acarya will come from "nowhere" like Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada did not spend his whole life inside the Gaudiya Matha, he was not clearly appointed by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja as the next Acarya and was not voted-in as such by his God-brothers. Very far from that… He came alone to New York and appeared suddenly from seeming nothingness to accomplish what he did.

For the IRM, Srila Prabhupada is the last and definitive acarya for the next 9,500 years. Poor ISKCON future…..!!!! Prabhupada is specific for us because he is the last acarya, because only he came to the West to bring Krsna Consciousness to us, because undoubtedly he saved us and founded ISKCON. That is Prabhupada's specificity. Other acaryas from our sampradaya have also their own specificity and there is no small or big acaryas. They are all essential and cannot be ignored at any moment.

[PADA: We agree that Krishna Kanta is speculating when he says there will be no more acharyas for 10,000 years. He also said if any acharya appears in the future, he will not participate in ISKCON. How does he know that? Some ISKCON temples may decide to work with  the next acharya, some may not, that is -- if there is one. Krishna Kanta has no way of knowing whether none, some, any or all of the ISKCON temples will participate if another achaya appears. He is speculating.] 

We can be sure that if they are in the sampradaya, it is by Krsna's will and that they have a predominant influence. An acarya is nothing without Krsna and the other acaryas who were before him and the acaryas who will come after him to go on with his mission and to complete it. If each one's position and importance is not always very clear in our mind, it's just because of our ignorance, to a certain extent, about their life and work, or the lack of physical contact with them due to different time (centuries), or due to our limited nature as jivas. Krsna knows exactly why they are in our sampradaya.

In our parampara, in line with Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in a spirit of preaching, we find, paradoxically, babajis whose importance could be underestimated. What did they really do to spread widely Krsna Consciousness? But one was Srila Bhaktivinoda's guru and the other one, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's spiritual master, whose disciple inspired Srila Prabhupada to go to the West. And we can't sum up their life and work to those facts, anyway.

Every acarya exists also to manifest Krsna's variety. As soon as we limit or reduce Krsna, we don't catch Krsna anymore. But, why should Srila Prabhupada be the last one, with no acarya after him, as some say? For me, it is total nonsense and ISKCON would not last very long.

The fact that Lord Caitanya did not go outside of India is absolutely not important. Christ only preached in his country and Christianity spread all over the world. So, why should Srila Prabhupada be the "Christ"? And why is the IRM is so careful and afraid that someone in the future could "take" Srila Prabhupada's position? There is absolutely no question of that. Did Srila Prabhupada take Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's place, or did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta take Srila Gaurakisora babaji's place, etc.? So, the question is: does the IRM really love Srila Prabhupada?

[PADA: OK you are avoiding the question, what happens if there is no further acharya? And even if there is one coming, what do we do in the meantime?]

*** Personally, I am convinced that in the future, when the very big wave of preaching will be at our back, very powerful acaryas will come, builders, organizers and administrative acaryas who will set up a very Krsna conscious society all over the world. They will be empowered for that. As far as we are concerned, we would not do that properly. It is not so simple. It is not just about thinking to follow instructions, to lay down laws by force or to establish what we think to be Vedic culture. It requires much more intelligence. Krsna is a Person and Krsna consciousness is something living and certainly not frozen. So, those acaryas will know how to do that. For us, anyway, it is not time for that. We are still very far from having the opportunity to manage a country.

To end this paper, the IRM is very proud and claims that Krsna Kant Desai was never defeated by anyone. It is just because till now, he did not meet the right person. But anyway, he has been defeated many times, I think. But they don't want to see that. Maya has no limit as well as rhetoric. So, for every valuable thing you can say, Krsna Kant will always have something to answer which will appear to innocent people or to people who want to be convinced by Krsna Kant, as a very good answer. You will see the weaknesses of his answer and will write something to show them, but Krsna Kant will answer another thing which will have the face of Truth. So, there is no end to that, and it will drive you to madness and despair.

[PADA: The ritviks are saying we need to worship the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada, how is that madness and despair? Rather the people who are worshiping the bogus GBC gurus are having madness and despair.]

*** Krsna Kant Desai is typical of this kind of devotee, who hangs himself with his intelligence. However, he is undoubtedly a devotee, and his fight is honorable to a certain extent. So, because with this kind of person, there is no hope in rhetoric, the next acarya will give him his mercy in a completely different way and it will end all his speculations. No other way than mercy and compassion. He deserves it, anyway.

The IRM program cannot be ISKCON's future, for much their idea of what is really an acarya is wrong, poor and neophyte. And what is hilarious is that the person who will solve many of the problems which the IRM would like to solve, but cannot, will be this acarya whom they absolutely don't want to hear anything about.

(End of Part One)

Hare Krsna
Your servant,
Prahlada Nrsimha das

[PADA: If everything is working according to karma, why is this gentleman writing anything? Why doe he not accept that karma is doing everything and he has to just accept? He does not even follow his own idea, he wants to stir things up by writing, so he is not accepting fate, he is trying to change fate. ys pd]


  1. A correct, objective and independent write up by
    Prahlada Nrsimha das.

    Hare Krsna.

  2. Wyatt you are another fool on the hill waiting for the second coming ... that is what we thought you were saying.


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