This is a reply to Duysanta das whose articlehttp://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-13/editorials11136.htm
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters: GENERALLY A SPIRITUAL MASTER WHO CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS A DISCIPLE IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE BECOMES HIS INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.
Adi 1.58 The Spiritual Masters: Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as A LIBERATED DEVOTEE. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.
Duysanta :“What they did not do was to publish the quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s Cc Adi 1.58 and then prove that the Ritvik theory was still applicable, with substantial quotes from Srila Prabhupada”
Mahesh: Duysanta das you are Soooooo IGNORANT that you just don’t get it. THEN you accuse us Prabhupadanugas of calling names. The FACT is you are in TAMO GUNA. Just ACCEPT the TRUTH!!!
10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute
SATYAM, TRUTHFULNESS, MEANS THAT FACTS SHOULD BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. FACTS SHOULD NOT BE MISREPRESENTED. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS UNPALATABLE, ONE SHOULD NOT REFRAIN FROM SPEAKING IT. TRUTHFULNESS DEMANDS THAT THE FACTS BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TRUTH.
SATYAM, TRUTHFULNESS, MEANS THAT FACTS SHOULD BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. FACTS SHOULD NOT BE MISREPRESENTED. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS UNPALATABLE, ONE SHOULD NOT REFRAIN FROM SPEAKING IT. TRUTHFULNESS DEMANDS THAT THE FACTS BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TRUTH.
Anyway, here is an answer QUOTING Adi 1.58 this is done in SPOON-FEED way just like feeding a small baby HOPING Duysanta will get it this time.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. IN HIS ABSENCE, THEREFORE, HIS WORDS OF DIRECTION SHOULD BE THE PRIDE OF THE DISCIPLE.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THE SPIRITUAL MASTER from WHOSE BOOKS and CDs WE ALL take OUR DISCIPLINE
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters: GENERALLY A SPIRITUAL MASTER WHO CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS A DISCIPLE IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE BECOMES HIS INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THAT LIBERTED DEVOTEE WHO APPEARS BEFORE US AS HIS BOOKS, Cds, TAPES means “The preceptor appears before the EXTERNAL SENSES of the fortunate conditioned soul” Books are PHYSICAL so YOU can VISUALISE Srila Prabhuapada as his BOOKS before the external senses THE EYES, and the EARS when you HEAR his Cds, Tapes, mp3′s are ALL about application of EXTERNAL SENSES.
Adi 1.58 The Spiritual Masters: Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as A LIBERATED DEVOTEE. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.
PURPORT: It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the EXTERNAL SENSES of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THAT POWERFUL MAHA-BHAGAVATA WHO ALWAYS CARRIES THE SUPREME PERSONALITY IF GODHEAD IN HIS HEART:
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS ***TRANSFERRED*** TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
Note: in the Madhyama adhikari stage there is INITIATION ALSO:
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri / DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana / sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
Antya 4.192 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri “AT THE TIME OF INITIATION, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
Antya 4.193 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri “When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri: ” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, AT THAT TIME HE REACHES THE PLATFORM OF IMMORTALITY, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri PURPORT
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of INITIATION, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. THUS HAVING ATTAINED KNOWLEDGE AND THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM, HE ALWAYS ENGAGES IN THE SERVICE OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF KRSNA. WHEN ONE IS FREED FROM MATERIAL CONNECTIONS IN THIS WAY, HIS BODY IMMEDIATELY BECOMES SPIRITUAL, AND KRSNA ACCEPTS HIS SERVICE.
However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life.
NoI 5: A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is THAT Maha-bhagavata WHO STILL gives INITIATION at MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI STAGE so there is ONLY ONE INITIATOR THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS and Ritvik Representative gives the HOLY NAME ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the ACTUAL INITIATOR.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided: The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse: MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho /brahmano vai gurur nrnam / sarvesam eva lokanam / asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi / sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH / sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca / na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
Note: the Initiation refered to HERE below is DIFFERENT from the Initiation given at the STAGE of MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI. The formality of 1st and 2nd initiation is given HERE by RITVIK REPRESENTATIVES on BEHALF OF Srila Prabhupada. Everyone KNEW they were CONDITIONED souls. CONDITIONED SOULS CAN NOT TRASFER KRSNA INTO YOUR HEART HENCE THE FORMALITY OF ONLY 1ST AND 2ND INITATIONS.
761016iv.cha Conversations: Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
Srila Prabhupada is the ONE initiator Spiritual Master: KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
“If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
Note: WHY these Duysanta type of people can NOT grasp this VERY simple thing is because he is in TAMO GUNA:
740615rc.par Conversations: Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT. (French)
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT. (French)
You can ONLY be a Disciple of ONE who gives YOU the discipline and ALL the DISCIPLINE is coming FROM Srila Prabhupada
In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
The Guru HOAX: they were CONDITIONED souls NOT acarya hence NO ORDER:
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, Bombay, April 22, 1977:
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Note: Guru MUST be on Uttama Adhikari stage. But aside from that he needs an ORDER from his Guru to be ACARYA.
Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan:
Prabhupada: “WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan:
Prabhupada: “WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
“When I order” -- NO ORDER WAS GIVEN on the contrary the ONLY instruction that followed TWO months AFTER was as per 9th July 1977, that they were to act in the capacity of Ritvik Representative of Acarya and the disciples initiated would be Srila Prabhupada’s, NOT theirs.
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, October 28, 1975, Nairobi:
Prabhupada: ”Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he’s ORDERED by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.”
Prabhupada: ”Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he’s ORDERED by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.”
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972
“Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU.
“Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU.
Note: As we can clearly see from Tamal Krishna’s earlier comment in April 1977, “Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are ALL CONDITIONED souls, so we CANNOT be guru. ”
BUT just AFTER 7 months in NOVEMBER, the departure of Srila Prabhupada, he was deceitful, he CHEATED, thus began the Guru HOAX in ISKCON.
Here is an example of a fanatic follower (Mahesh so called Raja) an empty can making a lot of noise.
ReplyDelete[PADA: Wyatt, we keep asking you to identify your living guru and you never do? Don't you even know the name of your guru? Srila Prabhupada says you have to name your guru or you are a mayavadi. You have never even given us the name of your guru. How do we know you are not worshiping the tooth fairy? You are a mayavadi, you never tell us who is your guru, where is your guru, or even if you even have a guru? You need to identify your guru before you can discuss anything further here, because otherwise, you are a mayavadi, according to Srila Prabhupada. ys pd]
Dear Puranjana dasa, sometimes you don't publish
Deletemy comments or you just pick a single line from my
whole comment and publish that, like the one above.
What are you afraid of ?
Srila Prabhupada is your spiritual master and he was
never like that - afraid.
As for your question about my guru? Well, he went for
a swim in the ocean of nescience and drowned. They
requested that I should take re initiation but could not
guarantee me that the one who will reinitiate will not
Bloop like the previous one.
So, I decided to take shelter of my grand spiritual master,
Srila Prabhupada and have been following his vani since
then. Srila Prabhupada's vani, you know is easily available
through his books. So, I am now simply his follower.
Since the fall down of my spiritual master, an entire or
almost an entire zonal so called acaryas and 40 plus
guru appointees have since disgraced themselves and
have fallen from grace. Just shameful, isn't it ?
Names are not necessary, Puranjana dasa, for all that
is now water under the bridge as far as I am concern.
The problem with you is that you think that by asking this
kind of questions, the person whom you ask will fear to
answer simply out of fear that you will condemn them and
their guru since you know almost all of their behind the
scene activities.
Well, please know that, that is not the case with everyone.
We, like myself, live ' outside the box ' and survive on bits
and pieces of mercy thrown to us by Sri Krsna's devotees
like yourself and others.
But that does not mean that if you or anyone else is wrong
we will just accept it to be right. Nope, sorry, no can do. That
will not be honest.
So, please stop munching on my comments and publish it whole,
will ya!
Hare Krsna
Dear Wyatt, in Vedic debates, you have to identify your sources, starting with your guru, otherwise you cannot even start to debate. The Goswamis would not debate anyone unless they identified their guru, their lineage, their shastra -- the version of shastra they were going to cite i.e. the name of the commentary if they were using on that shastra, and so on.
ReplyDeleteThat is ALSO the process even in karmi debates, you have to identify your sources BEFORE the debate. Or you are not allowed to even walk up to the podium.
You never tell us who your guru is, what line you are in, who is your authority etc.. So, you would be kicked out of a karmi debate even, they do not allow people to ramble without citing their sources, the moderator would slam down the gavel and toss you out.
You have to identify your guru, and your lineage, etc. that is the VEDIC process and its even the KARMI debate PROCESS. I am not afraid of anything, I am telling you how debates are conducted, whether Vedic debate or even high school debate club, anyone who does not identify their source BEFORE the debate, is not allowed to speak, because its considered as useless rambling with no basis.
I have asked you this repeatedly, and it appears, you have no guru, no lineage, no nothing, So you cannot debate even in a high school debate club, you would be tossed out of the debate club for failing to source yourself. You imply there is a living guru, but you have failed to show who that is --- ever, so your are debating with yourself and arguing with your own shadow. You have defeated yourself by failing to show the source of your ideas, and you do not even follow your own idea because you have no living guru whatsoever, its all phantasm. You are arguing about nothing because there is no living guru in your process, you are arguing with yourself. ys pd
In vedic times, yes but we are not living in vedic times, are we ? In vedic times, you would be by now living in a cave meditating on the Supersoul within your heart etc. to go back home back to Godhead and not on the internet condemning all and sundry. So, this is just an excuse on your part. Don't hide behind it. Your heart is good, simply misplaced priorities. Hare Krsna
ReplyDeleteDear Wyatt, The Goswamis are recent history and not living in a cave? You do not even know the history of events. They did not meditate in a cave, they spoke and debated. And the system of all debates in all cases, whether the Goswamis, or ancient Vedic debates, or today's Karmi debates, or anywhere else that there is a debates, is that you have to identify your sources.
And that is the system for all time up to TODAY. If you go to any karmi courts even TODAY, you cannot ramble an never produce your sources, that is the system TODAY.
What we have proven in this debate with you is-- You have no guru TODAY. That is what we have proved TODAY. You cannot identify your guru TODAY, because YOU HAVE NONE TODAY. If you have no guru you are not allowed to speak critically of those of us who do have a guru.
You are guru-less and we just proved that. You cannot identify your guru because THERE IS NONE in your argument. TODAY! Not ancient times, you have no guru TODAY, right now. We just proved that. And you are hiding behind your no name guru because HE DOES NOT EXIST. We just proved that again TODAY, you still cannot give his name TODAY, because THERE IS NONE. Today! ys pd
OK I lost your last comment Wyatt, are you saying you are a ritvik follower of Srila Prabhupada? ys pd
ReplyDeleteNo, not a ritvik follower as practiced by the
Deletebogus ritviks with their postmortal ritvik
initiations and claiming to be his disciples.
Just his follower.
Hare Krsna
Wyatt, if you say that Srila Prabhupada is your guru, you are saying the same thing we are saying. You are stealing our whole idea and not giving us credit? ys pd
ReplyDeleteSo you can take shelter of Srila Prabhupada, others cannot, you are truly a grinch Wyattt. ys pd
ReplyDeletePada you fool. You take the quote out of context about naming your guru on demand. What if Sulochana was in Los Angeles. At the same time another Sulochana initiated by a different guru was there too. And up comes some creep from New Vrndavana to put a bullet in his head. But first he asks him, "Who is your guru?". Sulochana is no fool. He knows if he says Prabhupada he will be killed. So he says he would rather not say, or he lies and says he isn't initiated yet. Or asks what a guru is and pretends to be a non-devotee altogether. Who cares why he does it? The point is he isn't an impersonalist. On the other hand if he says things like "The guru says this" and "The guru says that" then yes he is an impersonalist. Do you understand the difference? I do. If you don't you're stupid. And I'm not.
ReplyDelete[PADA: Well jeepers, we are not holding any weapons to anyone's head here, we are simply asking an easy question. Wyatt finally answered the question, he says he is doing exactly what we are doing, worshiping Srila Prabhupada.
Yet the difference is, he thinks he is some sort of a special guy, who is so advanced and special, only he deserves special considerations to worship Srila Prabhupada and no one else can, he is an elitist. He gets the mercy, no one else deserves any, he is hoarder, we are sharers, thats all.
And we had to literally squeeze him like an orange for two months just to get that out of him, because he knows the way he talks he sounds like an elitist snob. He gets the mercy because he is a special / wonderful / advanced guy, no one else gets it because they are not special / advanced etc. this sounds terrible, and he knows that, sorry, we have to ask people this question. ys pd
Thanks Wyatt but Mukunda das supports Bhakta das, who supports the worship of Radahanath, who supports burying Kirtanananda in the holy dham. This is not my trickery, its theirs.
ReplyDeleteAnyway you yourself said you are taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada, so if you accept his divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha), you have accepted him as your diksha guru. You have not explained what else policy and program you are supporting otherwise?
And if you are not taking shelter of his divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha), what else are you doing? Please explain your position, problem is, you never do? ys pd
Hee hee hee, why, you want to squeeze more oranges out of me? Also, we note your tone most times sounds vindictive. Who are you angry with ? Srila Prabhupada, your spiritual master says that anger is in the mode of passion and ignorance. It also takes away ones intelligence. You have been his disciple for almost 40 years now. By now you should be above the modes of material nature and not trapped by it. Hare Krsna
ReplyDeletePADA: Thanks Wyatt, we had to squeeze you for two months just to get you to admit -- you are doing what we are doing, taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada. We are not angry at all, we are actually happy and glad that you are doing what we are doing, its just hard to get you to admit -- you are doing what we are doing, so hence -- squeezing oranges, you could have just come out at the start and just said, hey guess what, I am doing what you are doing, taking shelter of the divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha) of Srila Prabhupada, but nope, we had to drag that statement out of you with tongs and pliers, because you just cannot admit, you are doing what we are. Ego thing I guess. ys pd]
Note: As we can clearly see from Tamal Krishna’s earlier comment in April 1977, “Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are ALL CONDITIONED souls, so we CANNOT be guru.” All this statement means is A. Tamal was not eligible to be guru. B. Tamal was not able to see who WAS eligible to be guru because of A.
ReplyDelete[PADA: Correct so the GBC and the Gaudiya Matha fools supported Tamal because they could not see that he was not a guru. Agreed.]
He wasn't qualified to be a guru or to see who else was qualified to be a guru. Yet Pada is quoting Tamal as guru now?
[PADA: I am quoting Tamal when he said that there was no guru appointment, that means he is admitting the whole thing was a scam.]
Was he guru, so we can take his words as sastra that no one in ISKCON could be guru? Or was he a conditioned soul, so we should REJECT anything he speculated about his God brother's qualifications since a conditioned soul cannot, by definition, say whether another person in this material world is able to become a guru or not?
[PADA: OK most of the God brothers supported Tamal, which God brothers joined me and Sulochana in opposing Tamal?]
Answer this question Pada or forever rot in hell for knowingly cheating people,
[PADA: I have answered this many times over, me and Sulochana did not get hardly any help from most of the God brothers because -- mostly they went along with Tamals' guru program. If there are some God brothers who were qualified to see that Tamal was bogus, who were they and why did we not hear about them? And if they are gurus now, who are they? You are cheating us by not telling us who they are or even if they exist. ys pd]
Dear Puranjana dasa, devotees like me are not ritvik followers
ReplyDeleteas you try to put it even though I said we are just followers.
And since you purposely try misinterpret (a common
characteristic in ritviks) what I have said, I am going to
repeat it. Devotees like us are ' straight' followers of
Srila Prabhupada if may coin the word straight or simply
followers of Srila Prabhupada and you are his initiated
disciple whom he accepted when he was present and we
are not simply because we were not present while
Srila Prabhupada around. So, please stop doing that.
As followers of Srila Prabhupada our similarity ends where
the bogus, some fanatical ritvik followers of Srila Prabhupada
practice postmortal ritvik initiation and claim themselves to
be his initiated disciples by falsely using the July 9th 1977 letter.
You should know as iskcon Bangalore, Singapore etc, and your
god brother Yasodananda practice this ritual and mislead the
initiated devotees as Srila Prabhupada initiated disciples.
As for us as Srila Prabhupada's followers we have the
option of taking initiation if the right person, a self realize
soul , one who is serious and sincere, who has surrendered
completely to the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, who has risen above
the modes of material nature etc , comes along. As it is, we
have not come across one yet.
And so we remain as we are, simply as Srila Prabhupada's
followers and that means, whatever he has taught, as what
to and how to practice devotional service in whatever situation
that we may in, to his disciples and devotees in general that
we follow till we achieve that goal of going back home, back
to Vaikunta.
And as his initiated disciple you should know that Srila
Prabhupada throughout his 12 years of preaching worldwide
or even before that has never taught or preached postmortal
ritvik initiation meaning one can still get initiated and become
a disciple after the departure of the initiating spiritual master
and neither has he ever said that he will continue to be the
initiating guru and continue to accept disciples after his
departure.
You should be honest about it because as a 2nd initiated
disciple of Srila Prabhupada, your qualification as a
brahmana comes into question.
Hare Krsna
Dear Padaji, with all due respect please allow me to advice you not to go on discussing this matter with Mr. Wyatt. It's just a waste of time. Obviously, his mind is already made up about this whole issue. He'll never understand or accept any explanation or argument from you or anyone else no matter how much sastric evidence or common sense is presented before him. Remember the old saying, "You can take a horse to the river sore, but you can't make him drink", or, something like that. My humble obeisances to you and all the true Prabhupadanugas. All glories to HDG A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the only qualified, bonafide and authorized Diksa and Siksa Acarya for the deliverance of all conditioned souls in this present age of Kali. All glories to Sri-Sri Nitai-Gauranga! Hare Krsna!
ReplyDeleteWyatt himself says he has taken shelter of Srila Prabhupada's divyam jnanam (diksha), he just does not want anyone else to, he is a grinch. This is elitism. ys pd
ReplyDeleteDear Wyatt, yes Srila Prabhupada said that he wanted future initiates to have their names in his book of initiates, he appointed ritviks, and this is confirmed in the July 9th letter, and he said over and over and over and over, do no change anything after I leave. He said my books are giving the divyam jnanam, and so on and so forth, tons of evidence he was going to be the guru after he departed.
ReplyDeleteHe also said I will never die, I will live forever from my books, and he said that right here in Berkeley, ad infinitum, there are many quotes on this and you have to study them.
Of course your question is silly, Jesus has to write a document that he would be worshiped after he departed, or else, he should not be worshiped now? So everyone should stop the worship of Jesus, because Jesus never wrote a letter saying he should be worshiped? I sometimes wonder if you are smoking something over there?
You want to shut down the entire Christian religion, because Jesus did not write that he should still be the messiah after he departed physically? Jesus is the messiah because he is qualified to be, he does not need to write a letter saying he is qualified?
Does the sun have to write a letter saying it it the source of light, or don't we know that because it is self evident? The entire Christian religion has to stop because Jesus failed to write a letter saying his worship should continue, you need to stop staying up late and thinking up all these crazy things. My neighbor is a 91 years old lady, I sometimes hear her singing nicely out loud about Jesus, she was singing today, Jesus is the light and he saved me from darkness, she has to stop singing about Jesus. because, there is no letter from Jesus telling her to do that? Really prabhu? ys pd
A 91 year old woman knows the guru does not have to write a letter saying he is to be worshiped. What is this? Wyatt is like Sisupala, demanding Krishna explain how He can be the king when He is only a cowherd? Where does Krishna write a letter saying He can be the king? The Christians know, its not their role to demand their guru write a letter. We have to worship the guru because he is qualified to be the guru, not because he writes a legal demand letters ordering his worship. This is atheism. You got them on the run PADA. Wyatt wants to see a letter, that is what Sisupala said, where is the authority to worship Krishna, we have not seen any letter? These people are modern day Sisupala.
ReplyDeleteGentleman Jim
Srila Prabhupada: The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business; that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction in the matter the initiator is already there. Now the next initiation will be performed as a ceremony officially, of course that ceremony has value because the Name, holy name, will be delivered to the student from the disciplic succession, it has got value, but in spite of that, as you are going on chanting, please go on with this business sincerely and Krsna willing, I may be coming to you very soon. I have already written to Jayananda about this, so don't he impatient. Pray to Krsna that I may meet you very soon." (SPL to Tamala Krsna, 19th August, 1968)
ReplyDelete(2ns Part)
ReplyDeleteWell, did he actually said he will continue to be the initiating
spiritual master and accept disciples after his departure
as how he did when he was present. Did Srila Prabhupada
say he will do that as compared to the process of initiation
practiced by all the previous acaryas up till Sri Krsna.
Their process of initiation may have differed but they all
took initiation from living gurus and not from any of the
departed previous acaryas.
Do you actually think, when all the previous acaryas down to
Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Maharaj, all had living gurus
as spiritual masters even though there was available, books
written by the previous acaryas, Srila Prabhupada would
introduce this nonsense bogus post mortal ritvik initiation
that is practiced by your ritvik member of Bangalore, UK, USA,
S'pore etc., giving the unsuspecting devotees spiritual names
and telling them that Srila Prabhupada has accepted them as
his disciple.
Is this not a case of killing his guru and all the previous acaryas,
the sampradaya and become the supreme guru after Sri Krsna.
Is this not what those ritvik rouges are trying to preach about
Srila Prabhupada when Srila Prabhupada himself has said that,
"The guru does not manufacture a new process to instruct the
disciple. The disciple receives from the guru an authorized
process received by the guru from his guru. This is called the
system of disciplic succession."
So, here, did Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Maharaj introduced
in his society(Gaudiya Math) a postmortal ritvik initiation process
to instruct future disciples and he ( Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati
Maharaj) will continue to remain the initiating spiritual master
after his departure from this planet and therefore Srila Prabhupada
also introduced the same in his own society(Iskcon).
So, what exactly did Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Maharaj
said before his departure from this planet.
Srila Prabhupada says that, " “You make a governing body and
Kunja Babu should be allowed to remain manager.” This was
directly spoken. He never asked anybody to become acarya.
He asked that “You form a governing body of twelve men and
go on preaching, and Kunja Babu may be allowed to remain
manager during his lifetime.” He never said that Kunja Babu
should be acarya. None, None of them were advised by the
guru maharaj to become acarya. His idea was that "let them
manage, then whoever will be actual qualified for becoming
acarya, they will elect. Why I should enforce upon them?". That
was his plan. Let them manage by strong governing body, as it
is going on. Then acarya will come by his qualification."
In his July 9th 1977 letter, Srila Prabhupada mentioned that
the initiated names are to be send to him to include in his
disciple initiated book. He said that because, “ as a matter
of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your
Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him,
and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples
without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession.
I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master
and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make
me and Krishna very happy. (Letter: December 2, 1975)”
Obviously, Puranjana dasa, as Srila Prabhupada's disciple you
have not been paying attention to what your guru has been
saying while he was present, his instructions etc, probably
must have been sleeping or something else (?).
Hare Krsna
[PADA: Sorry Wyatt your part one disappeared, re-send it if you can.]
ReplyDelete(2ns Part) Well, did he actually said he will continue to be the initiating spiritual master and accept disciples after his departure as how he did when he was present.
[PADA: Yes, he said he would live forever in his books, and he said those who read the books are getting initiation.]
Did Srila Prabhupada say he will do that as compared to the process of initiation practiced by all the previous acaryas up till Sri Krsna.
[PADA: And that is why many of our people know what is a bogus guru and what is not, because they read the books. ISKCON devotees are initiated, and they think gurus have illicit sex, so what is the value of their so-called initiation? Our devotees, most of them are not initiated formally, but they know gurus are not debauchees. That means they have accepted the divyam jnanam.]
Their process of initiation may have differed but they all took initiation from living gurus and not from any of the departed previous acaryas.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada says Visvanatha accepted Narottama as his guru, but they were not on the planet at the same time? You have not even read the books! There are 32 gurus listed for 5,000 years, there is not always a living guru, there are gaps. And Srila Prabhupada says there are gaps. You say Srila Prabhupada is wrong?]
Do you actually think, when all the previous acaryas down to Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Maharaj, all had living gurus as spiritual masters even though there was available, books written by the previous acaryas, Srila Prabhupada would introduce this nonsense bogus post mortal ritvik initiation that is practiced by your ritvik member of Bangalore, UK, USA, S'pore etc., giving the unsuspecting devotees spiritual names and telling them that Srila Prabhupada has accepted them as his disciple. Is this not a case of killing.
[PADA: We are not killing anyone, our lowest devotees know that debauchees are not acharyas, none of the GBC gurus teach that, so our lowest devotee is more advanced than their gurus. Our devotees have divyam jnanam, your devotees, ok you have none? Who follows your idea? Nobody! You have no temples, no devotees, no programs, no nothing. You are killing others by not giving anyone anything. ys pd]
Sri Krsna says to Arjuna that there are two kinds of created beings. One is divine and the other demonic. He say that those who are divine are fearless, pure in living, cultivates spiritual knowledge, is charitable, self-controlled, performs sacrifices, studies the Vedas, austere and simple, nonviolent, truthful, is free from anger, a renunciate, is tranquil, dislikes faultfinding, has compassion and is free from covetousness, gentle, modest and steady in determination, has vigor, is forgiveful, fortitude, cleanliness, free from envy and honourable .
ReplyDelete[PADA: Describes many nice ritvik devotees very nicely.]
He says that these are transcendental qualities, belonging to godly men. On the other hand, He says, the nature of the demonic is arrogance, prideful , anger, conceited, harshness and ignorance. Having said the above, Sri Krsna explain the rest in chapter sixteen of the Bhagavat gita. Puranjana dasa, you say there are tons of evidence where Srila Prabhupada has said he will continue to be the initiating spiritual master.
[PADA: Yep, he said his books are initiation, and he said he would live forever in his books etc., meanwhile .. you have failed to tell us ... what else did he order, and where are you doing that? If you have a better program than the ritviks, what is it? If you can find another instruction on this matter from Srila Prabhupada, what is it? Just show us the quotes which you claim are the real order? Just tell us what was actually ordered then, and show us where that order is given. You don't. Ever. ys pd]
(1st Part)
ReplyDeleteSri Krsna says to Arjuna that there are two kinds of
created beings. One is divine and the other demonic.
He say that those who are divine are fearless, pure in
living, cultivates spiritual knowledge, is charitable,
self-controled, performs sacrifices, studies the Vedas,
austere and simple, nonviolent, truthful, is free from
anger, a renunciate, is tranquil, dislikes faultfinding,
has compassion and is free from covetousness, gentle,
modest and steady in determination, has vigor, is
forgiveful, fortitude, cleanliness, free from envy and
honourable . He says that these are transcendental
qualities, belonging to godly men.
On the other hand, He says, the nature of the demonic
is arrogance, prideful , anger, conceited, harshness
and ignorance.
Having said the above, Sri Krsna explains the rest in
chapter sixteen of the Bhagavat gita.
Puranjana dasa, you say there are tons of evidence
where Srila Prabhupada has said he will continue to be
the initiating spiritual master after his departure but
not a single evidence have you published, just as you have
done with your initiating photograph. Evidence from
his books, his letters to his disciples or the GBC/Temple
Presidents, in his conversations or classes/lectures etc.
Nothing.
Having said that, why do you like to bring in Jesus Christ
and Christianity whenever you discuss or argue about
Vaisnava initiation. Did Jesus Christ introduced post
mortal ritvik initiation ceremony along with fire sacrificial
ritual in his teaching.
Or are you trying to say that for he past two thousand
years after the departure of Jesus Christ from this planet
all his followers have since been practicing the bogus
postmortal ritvik initiation complete with fire sacrifice
and name changes etc and became his disciples with a
sampradaya of their own and therefore, Christianity
would be a good example to prove your point.
Do you know that replying using Jesus Christ or the sun
or the 91 year old lady your neighbor as an example reflects
silliness in your thinking. We are talking about Srila
Prabhupada and initiation in Iskcon in particular after
his departure from this planet.
There was no other instruction given -- nor have you posted anything. He said his books and his worship should continue without change, and the society is to go on as it is "without change" and that is something he said hundreds of times. If a change is stated anywhere, where is it? What other order was given? You have to show us what ELSE was ordered. Then, you have to show us where that order is being applied so we can see if its practical and working and follows the siddhanta. You have not shown us what else was ordered, where it was ordered, where is it being applied, nothing. Read my article about Dusyanta, guru-less and rudderless, this is the whole trouble with you folks, you do not tell us where any other order was given? Just show it, otherwise we have not seen this "other order," ys pd
ReplyDeleteAlso Jesus, and all the other prophets, saints, gurus, do not write a letter demanding that they are going to be worshiped after they depart. There is no example of that? Srila Prabhupada says people can worship Jesus now and he will absorb their sins, and he is our guru, he is eternal, and so on, ... is there a written statement from Jesus that he would still be the guru in 2013? Nope. ys pd
ReplyDeleteTamal Krishna: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the...
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say without? As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are following the Spiritual Master.
Tamal Krishna: I was referring to a living Spiritual Master.
Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual Master is not question of...Spiritual Master is eternal...[...] As you say that "by reading bible", when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by the priest in the church.