Who is Guru? Part 2
BY: DUSYANTA DASA
Quoting verbatim from Vraja Vilasa Prabhu's article, which reads exactly like this:
[PADA: Notice that the two biggest scholars on Rocana's site cannot seem to even agree on some of the most basic points. For starters, we have doubts that Vraja Vilasa dasa is even a real person, he is probably a contrived pen name given to one of Rocana's ghost writers.]
DD: "So, Krsna Himself does not accept an unmanifest Guru, nor Lord Rama, nor Lord Chaitanya. In fact neither did Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, nor Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, etc. Why should we do something contrary to what they did and what they also instruct us to do throughout their teachings? Where do they say to accept an unmanifest Guru? Further Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Srimad Bhagavatam (3.7.39) that such a process of not accepting a physically manifest Guru is not approved at all;"
[PADA: And later in this article Dusyanta admits he has not accepted a living GBC guru. So Dusyanta is already operating on the principle of quoting from Srila Prabhupada, as the ritviks are doing. That means de facto, he is using our principle himself.]
DD: The quote provided by Prabhu (SB 3.7.39) does not validate his previous statement above at all, that is his interpretation of what Srila Prabhupada is stating. In his most recent article, the same author agrees with me to accept Srila Prabhupada's Shiksa even though Srila Prabhupada is "unmanifest". In fact, I actually go one step further than that and suggest we accept Srila Prabhupada as Shiksa Guru personally not just His Shiksa, but as our personal Shiksa Guru.
[PADA: OK, so we are ALL (ritviks and Dusyanta) accepting that the books and teachings of Srila Prabhupada are giving (A) The divyam jnanam (di) (B) Which destroys sins (ksha), then we are accepting him as our diksha guru. If there is another source of divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha) -- none is ever mentioned by Rocana / Kailash / Vraja Vilasa / Dusyanta etc.]
DD: Then in his most recent reply Vraja Vilasa says he agrees with my statement to accept Srila Prabhupada's Shiksa even though Srila Prabhupada is non-manifest to us. So which one is it then Prabhu? Can we accept non-manifest Gurus or not??
[PADA: The books are the current manifestation of Srila Prabhupada, so much so, even Dusyanta is always quoting them.]
DD: As far as I was under it, we are instructed by Srila Prabhupada to accept all the Disciplic Succession Spiritual Masters, especially Srila Rupa Goswami. Are we not called "Rupanugas", followers of Srila Rupa Goswami, and does not that mean that we accept Srila Rupa Goswami as our Shiksa Guru even though He is unmanifest?
[PADA: This was all explained a long time ago by Srila Prabhupada, there are gaps in the parampara system. There is not always a "manifest" guru. Krishna Himself says he has to re-appear over and over since the line is often broken.]
DD: So who is / are our Guru(s)? We can only accept physically manifest / present Gurus because that's what They did and we have to do what They did. Because that's what Vraja Vilasa states.
[PADA: We do not always accept a manifest guru, since there are only 32 are listed for a period of 5,000 years. That means there are gaps in the system where a manifest guru is not present.]
DD: But actually when we look a bit more deeply into this topic, when we find more absolute constants, the truth is we can also accept unmanifest Gurus as well -- perhaps the answer is both Prabhu. Not just physically present ones-- I know I don't accept any physically present Diksa Gurus from ISKCON to date-- but that's because I am fallen.
[PADA: OK so you do not accept a GBC guru, you are quoting Srila Prabhupada, that means, you are operating on the same principle as the ritivks. OR really, you are a ritivk but you cannot admit. ys pd]
DD: To accept Srila Prabhupada's vani through His Shiksa Guru status after He is no longer with us means we are accepting Him as our unmanifest Spiritual Master, just like we do with all the previous Acharyas in our Disciplic Succession. We accept Them all too, even though They are unmanifest. We associate with Them through transcendental sound vibration, even for the neophytes it's a fact.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada , ISKCON Founder-Acharya.
[PADA: Yep, Dusyanta follows the ritvik idea, ys pd]
BY: DUSYANTA DASA
Quoting verbatim from Vraja Vilasa Prabhu's article, which reads exactly like this:
[PADA: Notice that the two biggest scholars on Rocana's site cannot seem to even agree on some of the most basic points. For starters, we have doubts that Vraja Vilasa dasa is even a real person, he is probably a contrived pen name given to one of Rocana's ghost writers.]
DD: "So, Krsna Himself does not accept an unmanifest Guru, nor Lord Rama, nor Lord Chaitanya. In fact neither did Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, nor Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, etc. Why should we do something contrary to what they did and what they also instruct us to do throughout their teachings? Where do they say to accept an unmanifest Guru? Further Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Srimad Bhagavatam (3.7.39) that such a process of not accepting a physically manifest Guru is not approved at all;"
[PADA: And later in this article Dusyanta admits he has not accepted a living GBC guru. So Dusyanta is already operating on the principle of quoting from Srila Prabhupada, as the ritviks are doing. That means de facto, he is using our principle himself.]
DD: The quote provided by Prabhu (SB 3.7.39) does not validate his previous statement above at all, that is his interpretation of what Srila Prabhupada is stating. In his most recent article, the same author agrees with me to accept Srila Prabhupada's Shiksa even though Srila Prabhupada is "unmanifest". In fact, I actually go one step further than that and suggest we accept Srila Prabhupada as Shiksa Guru personally not just His Shiksa, but as our personal Shiksa Guru.
[PADA: OK, so we are ALL (ritviks and Dusyanta) accepting that the books and teachings of Srila Prabhupada are giving (A) The divyam jnanam (di) (B) Which destroys sins (ksha), then we are accepting him as our diksha guru. If there is another source of divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha) -- none is ever mentioned by Rocana / Kailash / Vraja Vilasa / Dusyanta etc.]
DD: Then in his most recent reply Vraja Vilasa says he agrees with my statement to accept Srila Prabhupada's Shiksa even though Srila Prabhupada is non-manifest to us. So which one is it then Prabhu? Can we accept non-manifest Gurus or not??
[PADA: The books are the current manifestation of Srila Prabhupada, so much so, even Dusyanta is always quoting them.]
DD: As far as I was under it, we are instructed by Srila Prabhupada to accept all the Disciplic Succession Spiritual Masters, especially Srila Rupa Goswami. Are we not called "Rupanugas", followers of Srila Rupa Goswami, and does not that mean that we accept Srila Rupa Goswami as our Shiksa Guru even though He is unmanifest?
[PADA: This was all explained a long time ago by Srila Prabhupada, there are gaps in the parampara system. There is not always a "manifest" guru. Krishna Himself says he has to re-appear over and over since the line is often broken.]
DD: So who is / are our Guru(s)? We can only accept physically manifest / present Gurus because that's what They did and we have to do what They did. Because that's what Vraja Vilasa states.
[PADA: We do not always accept a manifest guru, since there are only 32 are listed for a period of 5,000 years. That means there are gaps in the system where a manifest guru is not present.]
DD: But actually when we look a bit more deeply into this topic, when we find more absolute constants, the truth is we can also accept unmanifest Gurus as well -- perhaps the answer is both Prabhu. Not just physically present ones-- I know I don't accept any physically present Diksa Gurus from ISKCON to date-- but that's because I am fallen.
[PADA: OK so you do not accept a GBC guru, you are quoting Srila Prabhupada, that means, you are operating on the same principle as the ritivks. OR really, you are a ritivk but you cannot admit. ys pd]
DD: To accept Srila Prabhupada's vani through His Shiksa Guru status after He is no longer with us means we are accepting Him as our unmanifest Spiritual Master, just like we do with all the previous Acharyas in our Disciplic Succession. We accept Them all too, even though They are unmanifest. We associate with Them through transcendental sound vibration, even for the neophytes it's a fact.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada , ISKCON Founder-Acharya.
[PADA: Yep, Dusyanta follows the ritvik idea, ys pd]
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