Sampradaya Sun Rejects - July 9th 1977 Letter
Thu, 06/30/2011 - 08:39 — admin
To go against the dominant thinking of your friends, of most of the people you see everyday, is perhaps the most difficult act of heroism you can have……T. H. White
What Krishna Says
"What is the difference between what Srila Prabhupada says and what Krsna says?
Answer: NOTHING!
The only reason that someone doubts any conclusion regarding what Srila Prabhupada says is because they doubt Srila Prabhupada.
Not admitting doubt regarding what Srila Prabhupada has said means not admitting doubt in Srila Prabhupada. Admitting doubt regarding what Srila Prabhupada has written and said is honesty, this honesty can lead to understanding regarding what he has said and written. Accepting what he has said or written in books, memos and letters as truthful and full of knowledge takes great courage. That great courage is rare, seek out those with that courage and you will find Srila Prabhupada. "
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Answer: NOTHING!
The only reason that someone doubts any conclusion regarding what Srila Prabhupada says is because they doubt Srila Prabhupada.
Not admitting doubt regarding what Srila Prabhupada has said means not admitting doubt in Srila Prabhupada. Admitting doubt regarding what Srila Prabhupada has written and said is honesty, this honesty can lead to understanding regarding what he has said and written. Accepting what he has said or written in books, memos and letters as truthful and full of knowledge takes great courage. That great courage is rare, seek out those with that courage and you will find Srila Prabhupada. "
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
------------*-------------
The above article was sent to Sampradaya Sun as well as a number of other sites and devotees. The bottom article was sent as well some short time later, after which I started
an e mail exchange with Rochon Dasa which is in chronological order below. Some of the
mails have actual dates and some of the mail does not. I retain all the original e mail exchanges in my files.
an e mail exchange with Rochon Dasa which is in chronological order below. Some of the
mails have actual dates and some of the mail does not. I retain all the original e mail exchanges in my files.
What We Say >> “The favorite position of those who reject their spiritual master Srila Prabhupada...oh excuse me. The favorite position of those who reject their spiritual master Srila Prabhupadas July 9th 1977 order is, that the letter was meant only from the time the letter was written until he left his body. Now, this is interesting ladies and gentlemen because those of us who accept the letter to mean what it says and "henceforward" to mean...ah...let me check here...oh yes....here it is at The Free Dictionary on line. “henceforth adverb from here on in, from now on, from this day forward, from this day on, from this moment in time on, from this point forward, from this point in time forward, hereafter, immediately, in the future, starting tomorrow, subsequently, thereafter. Whew!
I never met Kirtanananda, never met the murderer of Sulocana, but I doubt that anyone of any actual spiritual advancement would have formed such a close association with these two individuals. It would simply be intolerable, for both the spiritually advanced person and the murderer and pedophile, simply for the fact that a spiritually advanced person would have no choice but to oppose such men by speaking the truth to them.
We have been asked to prove to those who reject Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 directive that it means what it says and is bona fide Vedic tradition by using guru, sadhu sastra from the books of the spiritual master who's July 9th 1977 order they reject. Interesting again. Yet we are not allowed to use the direct order as a reference to the order being bona fide from the person that we claim and which they claim as their spiritual master.
They accept that the order is bona fide because they say it was only for a certain time limit, until Srila Prabhupada’s passing, yet their spiritual master does not indicate any time line. Other wise they would show it. We can show…no time line.
So they accept that the order was given, that ritvik representatives of the acharya were appointed as such. Now if we ask them to supply proof of a timeline for the July 9th 1977 directive using sadhu, sastra guru they cannot and do not answer the request for the benefit of those whom they care to represent, like their readers and other associates. They in affect hide behind silence…isn’t that like the Ostrich? Yes, it is.
That’s what we say.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
We have been asked to prove to those who reject Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 directive that it means what it says and is bona fide Vedic tradition by using guru, sadhu sastra from the books of the spiritual master who's July 9th 1977 order they reject. Interesting again. Yet we are not allowed to use the direct order as a reference to the order being bona fide from the person that we claim and which they claim as their spiritual master.
They accept that the order is bona fide because they say it was only for a certain time limit, until Srila Prabhupada’s passing, yet their spiritual master does not indicate any time line. Other wise they would show it. We can show…no time line.
So they accept that the order was given, that ritvik representatives of the acharya were appointed as such. Now if we ask them to supply proof of a timeline for the July 9th 1977 directive using sadhu, sastra guru they cannot and do not answer the request for the benefit of those whom they care to represent, like their readers and other associates. They in affect hide behind silence…isn’t that like the Ostrich? Yes, it is.
That’s what we say.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
------------*-------------
"New" means just that – not previously discovered, not previously published, not previously discussed. (And in the context of Rtvik-vada, we could almost say "not discussed threadbare") To keep it simple, let's just say "not published".
(From: Rochon Dasa: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:26:38 -0400)
(From: Rochon Dasa: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:26:38 -0400)
Please note that never in my association with Rochon Dasa and the Sampradaya Sun has he ever discussed with me evidence regarding a time limit to Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 directive. You will not find any evidence in his Sampradaya Acharya essay.
Evidence proving the existence of a time limit has never been provided to anyone and has not been “previously discussed”. Nor has it ever been published.
To “discuss”, means: To examine in detail or by disputation; to reason upon by presenting favorable and adverse considerations; to debate; to sift; to investigate; to ventilate.
“In the Caitanya Caritamrta it is said that the activities of the Vaisnava cannot be understood even by the greatest scholar. So we have to understand everything through the transparent via media of the Spiritual Master.”
(Letter to: Madhusudana—Los Angeles 20 November 1968)
Evidence proving the existence of a time limit has never been provided to anyone and has not been “previously discussed”. Nor has it ever been published.
To “discuss”, means: To examine in detail or by disputation; to reason upon by presenting favorable and adverse considerations; to debate; to sift; to investigate; to ventilate.
“In the Caitanya Caritamrta it is said that the activities of the Vaisnava cannot be understood even by the greatest scholar. So we have to understand everything through the transparent via media of the Spiritual Master.”
(Letter to: Madhusudana—Los Angeles 20 November 1968)
------------*-------------
The following is a series of e mail exchanges between Rochon Dasa, Editor of the Sampradaya Sun and myself. This is a mini debate with a definite conclusion. There was never any stipulation from him or the Sun regarding publication. His views on the July 9th 1977 letter from Srila Prabhupada are well known through out the Vaisnava world of Hare Krishna. That he does not accept the word “henceforward” from
Srila Prabhupada is also well known.
Srila Prabhupada is also well known.
Of the two articles I wrote above the second article “What We Say”
Is the article to which Rochon Dasa responded.
Is the article to which Rochon Dasa responded.
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 02:49:07 -0400
Subject: Re: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa,
Obeisance’s, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhu, stop sending articles like this to us. We won't print them, and we don't want to receive them. Your logic is bad, and your application of the philosophy is highly questionable. On top of that, your tone is offensive, and on that point, we urge you to stop
sending this stuff to us.
Thank you.
your servant,
Rocana dasa
Subject: Re: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa,
Obeisance’s, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhu, stop sending articles like this to us. We won't print them, and we don't want to receive them. Your logic is bad, and your application of the philosophy is highly questionable. On top of that, your tone is offensive, and on that point, we urge you to stop
sending this stuff to us.
Thank you.
your servant,
Rocana dasa
..then they have lost the respect of any common person who understands what is meant by integrity let alone intelligence.”
That’s what we say.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
That’s what we say.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Dear Rochon Prabhu.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Not wanting to receive what I send? Where is the open forum? If the logic is "bad" whatever that means and my application of the philosophy is highly questionable then why not respond? How could my tone be offensive...the whole comment was not directed at you or the Sampradaya Sun. It was sent to many other sites around the world, many ISKCON sites, yours was kept on a blind copy.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Not wanting to receive what I send? Where is the open forum? If the logic is "bad" whatever that means and my application of the philosophy is highly questionable then why not respond? How could my tone be offensive...the whole comment was not directed at you or the Sampradaya Sun. It was sent to many other sites around the world, many ISKCON sites, yours was kept on a blind copy.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:17:16 -0400
Subject: RE: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa
Obeisance’s, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhu, you know this is not a Rtvik site. You know our editorial policy regarding publication of Rtvik-vada. Why do you pretend that you don't? We are not required to have an editorial policy that suits you or the Rtviks as a group. We have our own policy, and it prohibits the publication of Rtvik propaganda. It's simple, and I know you know this,but I'll say it again:
We will only publish pro-Rtvik material if it contains new evidence, new arguments, or new realizations. Your article contains none of these three. What it does contain is this: "then they have lost the respect of any common person who understands what is meant by integrity let alone intelligence.” You come to the Sun, suggest that non-Rtvik readers have no intelligence, no integrity, then wonder why we no longer wish to receive such material from you.
Prabhu, I'm sorry to say it, but it is you who are demonstrating a lack of intelligence and integrity by engaging in this little drama. I am not interested in having a Rtvik debate with you. I find your Rtvik paper to be nothing but a regurgitation of the already well-chewed Rtvik arguments, which I've already addressed repeatedly.
I've offered to debate two of your Rtvik community's pundits, and they have both declined. At this juncture, I suggest that if you want a debate, you go to Madhu Pandit dasa, who is currently the Rtvik man in the limelight, and ask him to come to us seeking a debate. That, we would be inclined to pursue.
In the meantime, please use some discretion when submitting to us. You have many Rtvik sites online now to submit to. Why bring it here, when it doesn't meet the requirements for content?
your servant,
Rocana dasa
Subject: RE: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa
Obeisance’s, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhu, you know this is not a Rtvik site. You know our editorial policy regarding publication of Rtvik-vada. Why do you pretend that you don't? We are not required to have an editorial policy that suits you or the Rtviks as a group. We have our own policy, and it prohibits the publication of Rtvik propaganda. It's simple, and I know you know this,but I'll say it again:
We will only publish pro-Rtvik material if it contains new evidence, new arguments, or new realizations. Your article contains none of these three. What it does contain is this: "then they have lost the respect of any common person who understands what is meant by integrity let alone intelligence.” You come to the Sun, suggest that non-Rtvik readers have no intelligence, no integrity, then wonder why we no longer wish to receive such material from you.
Prabhu, I'm sorry to say it, but it is you who are demonstrating a lack of intelligence and integrity by engaging in this little drama. I am not interested in having a Rtvik debate with you. I find your Rtvik paper to be nothing but a regurgitation of the already well-chewed Rtvik arguments, which I've already addressed repeatedly.
I've offered to debate two of your Rtvik community's pundits, and they have both declined. At this juncture, I suggest that if you want a debate, you go to Madhu Pandit dasa, who is currently the Rtvik man in the limelight, and ask him to come to us seeking a debate. That, we would be inclined to pursue.
In the meantime, please use some discretion when submitting to us. You have many Rtvik sites online now to submit to. Why bring it here, when it doesn't meet the requirements for content?
your servant,
Rocana dasa
Dear Rochon Prabhu.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada
I am not pretending that I do not know about your editorial policy. I simply sent you a comment based on finding a truth.
That the topic is about the July 9th 1977 letter formulated and signed by your spiritual master Srila Prabhupada does not make it an invalid comment. You are free to do as you please with your editorial policy. You said " We will only publish pro-Rtvik material if it contains new evidence, new arguments, or new realizations." That means that you will publish so called pro-ritvik material but only if you decide what is new evidence, new arguments, or new realizations. Very good. Now, to help me please, describe in the last comment I sent you where there is no new argument, no new evidence and no new realizations. If you do not answer or dismiss my request then you have failed to live up to that stated aspect of your editorial policy.
Otherwise I am being dismissed without lawful cause.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada
I am not pretending that I do not know about your editorial policy. I simply sent you a comment based on finding a truth.
That the topic is about the July 9th 1977 letter formulated and signed by your spiritual master Srila Prabhupada does not make it an invalid comment. You are free to do as you please with your editorial policy. You said " We will only publish pro-Rtvik material if it contains new evidence, new arguments, or new realizations." That means that you will publish so called pro-ritvik material but only if you decide what is new evidence, new arguments, or new realizations. Very good. Now, to help me please, describe in the last comment I sent you where there is no new argument, no new evidence and no new realizations. If you do not answer or dismiss my request then you have failed to live up to that stated aspect of your editorial policy.
Otherwise I am being dismissed without lawful cause.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:26:38 -0400
Subject: RE: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa
Please accept my humble obeisance’s. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OK, so you acknowledge the Sun's editorial policy on Rtvik material, but you're saying that you were unaware that your article didn't meet the criteria? Fine. So please out to me ONE SINGLE new realization, new argument, or new piece of evidence that's in your article.
"New" means just that – not previously discovered, not previously published, not previously discussed. (And in the context of Rtvik-vada, we could almost say "not discussed threadbare".) To keep it simple, let's just say "not published". My conclusion is that your article contained nothing new. So you point out what IS new. And yes, as site owner and editor, 'I'm the decider' about what is and isn't "new". That's how privately operated websites generally work. And by the way – there's nothing "legal" about this process, so the 'lawful cause' comment isn't applicable. Think of it more like this: the Sun is my virtual asrama. I'm inviting you into my digital home, and extending service to you, out of kindness and a sense of duty to Srila Prabhupada. You have no "legal" rights here, other than those the civil law proscribes. Your behavior is (or should be) essentially the equivalent of how you would behave in another devotee's home that you're a guest in. Does that help clarify?
Your servant,
Rocana dasa
Subject: RE: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa
Please accept my humble obeisance’s. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OK, so you acknowledge the Sun's editorial policy on Rtvik material, but you're saying that you were unaware that your article didn't meet the criteria? Fine. So please out to me ONE SINGLE new realization, new argument, or new piece of evidence that's in your article.
"New" means just that – not previously discovered, not previously published, not previously discussed. (And in the context of Rtvik-vada, we could almost say "not discussed threadbare".) To keep it simple, let's just say "not published". My conclusion is that your article contained nothing new. So you point out what IS new. And yes, as site owner and editor, 'I'm the decider' about what is and isn't "new". That's how privately operated websites generally work. And by the way – there's nothing "legal" about this process, so the 'lawful cause' comment isn't applicable. Think of it more like this: the Sun is my virtual asrama. I'm inviting you into my digital home, and extending service to you, out of kindness and a sense of duty to Srila Prabhupada. You have no "legal" rights here, other than those the civil law proscribes. Your behavior is (or should be) essentially the equivalent of how you would behave in another devotee's home that you're a guest in. Does that help clarify?
Your servant,
Rocana dasa
To Rochon Prabhu charles Dowson
From: charles Dowson (hasti90@hotmail.com)
Sent: June-18-11 9:28:13 PM
To: Rochon Prabhu (sun@harekrsna.com); charles Dowson (hasti90@hotmail.com)
Rochon Prabhu
Pranams.
Perfect. Now you must reply to what I send in the way of ONE SINGLE new realization and prove using your own criteria of guru, sahu, sastra that this ONE SINGLE realization does not hold up. I'll get back to you.
Thankyou.
Ys hasti Gopala Dasa
From: charles Dowson (hasti90@hotmail.com)
Sent: June-18-11 9:28:13 PM
To: Rochon Prabhu (sun@harekrsna.com); charles Dowson (hasti90@hotmail.com)
Rochon Prabhu
Pranams.
Perfect. Now you must reply to what I send in the way of ONE SINGLE new realization and prove using your own criteria of guru, sahu, sastra that this ONE SINGLE realization does not hold up. I'll get back to you.
Thankyou.
Ys hasti Gopala Dasa
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:15:03 -0400
Subject: RE: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Haribol, prabhu. That's fine, as long as your one single new realization also meets the test of guru, sadhu and sastra.
ys,
Rdas
Subject: RE: What We Say.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Haribol, prabhu. That's fine, as long as your one single new realization also meets the test of guru, sadhu and sastra.
ys,
Rdas
From: Charles Dowson
To: Rochon Dasa
Too late. The onus will be on you. Remember, you said. "So please out to me ONE SINGLE new realization, new argument, or new piece of evidence that's in your article. "New" means just that – not previously discovered, not previously published, not previously discussed."
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
To: Rochon Dasa
Too late. The onus will be on you. Remember, you said. "So please out to me ONE SINGLE new realization, new argument, or new piece of evidence that's in your article. "New" means just that – not previously discovered, not previously published, not previously discussed."
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Dear Rochon Prabhu.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
One cannot use the terms "I think" or "I believe". Srila Prabhupada's July 9th 1977 is just that..Srila Prabhupada's and holds the power of God, Krsna in it's contents.
One may "believe" or "think" what one wants but that is speculation. To ask others to use guru, sadhu, sastra to confirm the words of Srila Prabhupada in a single page document who's contents he approved and yet not use guru, sadhu, sastra oneself to prove that there was a time limit is a serious contradiction.
Most anyone believes that Srila Prabhupada's July 9th 1977 letter was approved by him, that he saw and read it as well as signed it. No one has yet in any court of law challenged the validity of the July 9th 1977 letter. The way to not follow the letter's instructions is to insist that the letter had a built in time limit.
So those who believe that, must use guru, sadhu, sastra to prove their contention. If one does not want to use guru, sadhu, sastra then one must use another means to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there exists in the letter a time limit and show what that time limit length is.
Rochon Prabhu, you have the habit of accepting the July 9th 1977 letter as a legal document and as a bona fide document authorized by your spiritual master and at other times rejecting the contents all together. Now here from my files in a "not for publication" exchange you say…( That a request was made to not publish that exchange I will not, even in part, however he says openly that he does not accept “henceforward” as meaning for all time. He does not accept that Srila Prabhupada established as he understands it, a massive change in guru-tattva.)
So I assume you accept the validity of the July 9th 1977 letter by Srila Prabhupada just not what "henceforward" means. You do not accept it as meaning for all time.
My single realization, my challenge from my article:
“So they accept that the order was given, that ritvik representatives of the acharya were appointed as such. Now if we ask them to supply proof of a timeline for the July 9th 1977 directive using sadhu, sastra guru they cannot and do not answer the request for the benefit of those whom they care to represent, like their readers and other associates. They in affect hide behind silence…isn’t that like the Ostrich? Yes, it is.”
Now the question is: Where, using guru, sadhu, sastra is the proof that the July 9th 1977 letter has a time limit, what is the time limit and where is that indicated within or without the letter?
If you do not accept the July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada as valid in any way then you may abstain from the question.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
One cannot use the terms "I think" or "I believe". Srila Prabhupada's July 9th 1977 is just that..Srila Prabhupada's and holds the power of God, Krsna in it's contents.
One may "believe" or "think" what one wants but that is speculation. To ask others to use guru, sadhu, sastra to confirm the words of Srila Prabhupada in a single page document who's contents he approved and yet not use guru, sadhu, sastra oneself to prove that there was a time limit is a serious contradiction.
Most anyone believes that Srila Prabhupada's July 9th 1977 letter was approved by him, that he saw and read it as well as signed it. No one has yet in any court of law challenged the validity of the July 9th 1977 letter. The way to not follow the letter's instructions is to insist that the letter had a built in time limit.
So those who believe that, must use guru, sadhu, sastra to prove their contention. If one does not want to use guru, sadhu, sastra then one must use another means to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there exists in the letter a time limit and show what that time limit length is.
Rochon Prabhu, you have the habit of accepting the July 9th 1977 letter as a legal document and as a bona fide document authorized by your spiritual master and at other times rejecting the contents all together. Now here from my files in a "not for publication" exchange you say…( That a request was made to not publish that exchange I will not, even in part, however he says openly that he does not accept “henceforward” as meaning for all time. He does not accept that Srila Prabhupada established as he understands it, a massive change in guru-tattva.)
So I assume you accept the validity of the July 9th 1977 letter by Srila Prabhupada just not what "henceforward" means. You do not accept it as meaning for all time.
My single realization, my challenge from my article:
“So they accept that the order was given, that ritvik representatives of the acharya were appointed as such. Now if we ask them to supply proof of a timeline for the July 9th 1977 directive using sadhu, sastra guru they cannot and do not answer the request for the benefit of those whom they care to represent, like their readers and other associates. They in affect hide behind silence…isn’t that like the Ostrich? Yes, it is.”
Now the question is: Where, using guru, sadhu, sastra is the proof that the July 9th 1977 letter has a time limit, what is the time limit and where is that indicated within or without the letter?
If you do not accept the July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada as valid in any way then you may abstain from the question.
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:58:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Accept or Reject Srila Prabhupada's 7/9 Letter.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa,
Please accept my humble obeisance’s. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for your letter. I can't say that I'm surprised by the contents.
For the record, your "single realization" does not work within the bounds of the Sun's editorial controls on Rtvik propaganda.
It is not a "new realization" -- it is an old, time-worn, discussed threadbare, published over and over, same old realization the Rtviks have been putting out since this debate began. I have rebutted your "realization", and others have rebutted it. Over and over. Please, prabhu... Google is your friend. Kindly do a little research and you will see that thus far, you have offered NOTHING NEW in this debate. No new realizations, no new evidence, no new arguments.
Hoping this finds you well.
your servant,
Rocana dasa
Subject: Re: Accept or Reject Srila Prabhupada's 7/9 Letter.
From: sun@harekrsna.com
To: hasti90@hotmail.com
Dear Hasti Gopala dasa,
Please accept my humble obeisance’s. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for your letter. I can't say that I'm surprised by the contents.
For the record, your "single realization" does not work within the bounds of the Sun's editorial controls on Rtvik propaganda.
It is not a "new realization" -- it is an old, time-worn, discussed threadbare, published over and over, same old realization the Rtviks have been putting out since this debate began. I have rebutted your "realization", and others have rebutted it. Over and over. Please, prabhu... Google is your friend. Kindly do a little research and you will see that thus far, you have offered NOTHING NEW in this debate. No new realizations, no new evidence, no new arguments.
Hoping this finds you well.
your servant,
Rocana dasa
To Rochon Prabhu (sun@harekrsna.com)
From Charles Dowson
Sent: June-22-11 1:38:34 AM
Dear Rochon Prabhu.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
This little debate between us was not for Sampradaya Sun to publish...I told you that. It therefore does not fall under editorial policy controls...I told you that. You have failed to answer the question below.
"Now the question is: Where, using guru, sadhu, sastra is the proof that the July 9th 1977 letter has a time limit, what is the time limit and where is that indicated within or without the letter?" You do not even refer to the question...never mind what you may have said to anyone else. That is irrelevant. Simply put it means that you cannot prove that there is a time limit on the July 9th 1977 order by Srila Prabhupada. This by your refusal to indicate what proof you have to back up your speculation that there is a time limit."If you do not accept the July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada as valid in any way then you may abstain from the question." Therefore by abstaining from the question as posted above you have officially admitted that you do not accept the July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada as valid..in total.
Thank you for your precious time.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
From Charles Dowson
Sent: June-22-11 1:38:34 AM
Dear Rochon Prabhu.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
This little debate between us was not for Sampradaya Sun to publish...I told you that. It therefore does not fall under editorial policy controls...I told you that. You have failed to answer the question below.
"Now the question is: Where, using guru, sadhu, sastra is the proof that the July 9th 1977 letter has a time limit, what is the time limit and where is that indicated within or without the letter?" You do not even refer to the question...never mind what you may have said to anyone else. That is irrelevant. Simply put it means that you cannot prove that there is a time limit on the July 9th 1977 order by Srila Prabhupada. This by your refusal to indicate what proof you have to back up your speculation that there is a time limit."If you do not accept the July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada as valid in any way then you may abstain from the question." Therefore by abstaining from the question as posted above you have officially admitted that you do not accept the July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada as valid..in total.
Thank you for your precious time.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
------------*-------------
Conclusion:
Therefore we can conclude that the Sampradaya Sun web site does not officially accept His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 letter as valid in any way.
Comments.
In order for anyone to debate the contents of Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 letter one must accept the contents of the letter in total. Sampradaya Sun has been sent several rebuttals to their Sampradaya Acharya article but none have ever been published by the Sampradaya Sun.
Rochon Dasa says above “We offered to debate two of your Rtvik community's pundits, and they have both declined. “ First he must show the refusal letters and also who the two pundits are that refused. Second, what were the debate rules set up, and third, that he refuses not only to answer my simple question, that has not been referenced it makes one wonder if he is actually capable of a lengthy debate regarding Srila Prabhupada’s final directive. Most often those who engage in such a debate do not even touch on the letter but would rather ramble on over hill and dale through reams of sastra which in itself contains multiple meanings, sruti’s, out of context references etc. to the point that they have no conclusion but only opinions re sastra. Such an approach to understanding of guru-tattva in incomplete unless one takes into consideration all of the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master.
Disregarding the final instruction after years of instruction from anyone regarding any method to achieve any goal is illogical, and an extremely risky business. Then to teach others that ignorance is highly irresponsible.
The July 9th letter for me, is the Hare Krsna movements Bill Of Rights. It is by all accounts directly connected to all of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, paves the way for the future of Lord Caitanya’s movement which by Srila Prabhupada’s mercy continues to this day. Essays, letters and articles abound through out the Vaisnava community confirming Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th letter as a bona fide final directive. These have never ever been adequately challenged and never defeated. A plan or course of action, as in an editorial policy is intended to influence and determine decisions and actions. Not publishing honest rebuttals and debate on this matter leaves their readers missing, not what we want heard but what Srila Prabhupada wants heard, as we always speak directly via Srila Prabhupada. That Sampradaya Sun does not accept Srila Prabhupada’s letter or it’s contents leaves them now isolated from the topic of guru-tattva. The date of any referrals to Srila Prabhupada’s teachings about disciplic succession for Rochon Dasa, can now only go as far as pre May 28th 1977.
The Sampradaya Sun has spoken recently about the troubles in Bangalore in an article called Bangalore Drama. I have responded but did not send it to the Sun as I know they would not publish it. They say their site is not for ritvik-vada and yet in that article Rochon Dasa denounces ritivk-vada, which by the way, is in reality Srila Prabhupada-vada. This they cannot do anymore unless allowing published reponses.
Real editorial policy at least indicates balance by countering the understandings of others with verifiable facts not silence. When you get your article rejected for what ever reason, make sure it is backed up with as much of the same verifiable validity that Rochon Dasa is asking from you.
Instead of offering verifiable facts or even a reference to the question Rochon Dasa ends his final letter to me by saying “Please, prabhu... Google is your friend. Kindly do a little research and you will see that thus far, you have offered NOTHING NEW in this debate. No new realizations, no new evidence, no new arguments.”
Unseen by his readers what are his real responses to many others who have searched for a voice to defend, understand and further by way of argument the teachings of their spiritual master Srila Prabhupada.
Since the Sampradaya Sun no longer believes that there is any more to be said regarding Srila Prabhupada’s final directive, baring new evidence, new arguments and new realizations, then this information should be put into their editorial policy. That way the readers may then ask Rochon Dasa, editor in chief for the Sampradaya Sun, for all of the data available which I’m sure he has, on ritvik-vada which is “old evidence, old arguments, and old realizations instead of telling them to “go google”
Rochon Dasa says above “'We offered to debate two of your Rtvik community's pandits, and they have both declined. At this juncture, I suggest that if you want a debate, you go to Madhu Pandit dasa, who is currently the Rtvik man in the limelight, and ask him to come to us seeking a debate. That, we would be inclined to pursue.”
Of course an ongoing debate is now impossible as the Sampradaya Sun, from Rochon Dasa’s own words says: From above:
“Prabhu, you know this is not a Rtvik site. You know our editorial policy regarding publication of Rtvik-vada. Why do you pretend that you don't? We are not required to have an editorial policy that suits you or the Rtviks as a group. We have our own policy, and it prohibits the publication of Rtvik propaganda.”
If you search the Sampradaya Sun Editorial Policy you will not see any reference to Ritivik-vada or even the word “ritvik”. So do they have a policy regarding “ritvik-vada” or not? Or is that policy concealed by a fence of deception?
Madhu Pundit Prabhu I am sure is much to busy these days to debate with Rochon Dasa and the Sampradaya Sun staff. After all, if Rochon Dasa cannot even answer the simple question I posed: "Now the question is: Where, using guru, sadhu, sastra is the proof that the July 9th 1977 letter has a time limit, what is the time limit and where is that indicated within or without the letter?"…then how could he engage in a debate with Madhu Pundit Prabhu.
There are many Vaisnava’s who are equally qualified who serve with Madhu Pundit Prabhu at ISKCON Bangalore who would be more than happy to fulfill Rochon Dasa’s wish for a debate.
The topic of disciplic succession will be on going until the end of Kali Yuga and must be refreshed from time to time with the defeat of rebelliousness. It is and always will be a most serious matter, it is for the protection of the whole world that we seek out and distribute the truth, challenging all comers that Srila Prabhupada meant exactly what he said verbatim in the May 28th 1977 conversation, the July 9th 1977 letter ( directive ) and confirmed again in October of 1977 here:
Srila Prabhupada: “Hare Krishna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?...So I have deputed some of you to initiate. I have already deputed… So, deputies…J’s name was there?
Disciple: “It is already there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was already on that list [ of deputies in the July 9th directive, stating that Srila Prabhupada’s authorized system for initiations “henceforward’].”
Srila Prabhupada: “So I depute him to do this…This initiation; I have deputed my disciples. Is it clear or not?”
Disciple: “It’s clear…We will explain to the Bengali gentleman, just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.” ( Conversation, October 18, 1977, Vrndavana )
Rochon Dasa says above “We offered to debate two of your Rtvik community's pundits, and they have both declined. “ First he must show the refusal letters and also who the two pundits are that refused. Second, what were the debate rules set up, and third, that he refuses not only to answer my simple question, that has not been referenced it makes one wonder if he is actually capable of a lengthy debate regarding Srila Prabhupada’s final directive. Most often those who engage in such a debate do not even touch on the letter but would rather ramble on over hill and dale through reams of sastra which in itself contains multiple meanings, sruti’s, out of context references etc. to the point that they have no conclusion but only opinions re sastra. Such an approach to understanding of guru-tattva in incomplete unless one takes into consideration all of the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master.
Disregarding the final instruction after years of instruction from anyone regarding any method to achieve any goal is illogical, and an extremely risky business. Then to teach others that ignorance is highly irresponsible.
The July 9th letter for me, is the Hare Krsna movements Bill Of Rights. It is by all accounts directly connected to all of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, paves the way for the future of Lord Caitanya’s movement which by Srila Prabhupada’s mercy continues to this day. Essays, letters and articles abound through out the Vaisnava community confirming Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th letter as a bona fide final directive. These have never ever been adequately challenged and never defeated. A plan or course of action, as in an editorial policy is intended to influence and determine decisions and actions. Not publishing honest rebuttals and debate on this matter leaves their readers missing, not what we want heard but what Srila Prabhupada wants heard, as we always speak directly via Srila Prabhupada. That Sampradaya Sun does not accept Srila Prabhupada’s letter or it’s contents leaves them now isolated from the topic of guru-tattva. The date of any referrals to Srila Prabhupada’s teachings about disciplic succession for Rochon Dasa, can now only go as far as pre May 28th 1977.
The Sampradaya Sun has spoken recently about the troubles in Bangalore in an article called Bangalore Drama. I have responded but did not send it to the Sun as I know they would not publish it. They say their site is not for ritvik-vada and yet in that article Rochon Dasa denounces ritivk-vada, which by the way, is in reality Srila Prabhupada-vada. This they cannot do anymore unless allowing published reponses.
Real editorial policy at least indicates balance by countering the understandings of others with verifiable facts not silence. When you get your article rejected for what ever reason, make sure it is backed up with as much of the same verifiable validity that Rochon Dasa is asking from you.
Instead of offering verifiable facts or even a reference to the question Rochon Dasa ends his final letter to me by saying “Please, prabhu... Google is your friend. Kindly do a little research and you will see that thus far, you have offered NOTHING NEW in this debate. No new realizations, no new evidence, no new arguments.”
Unseen by his readers what are his real responses to many others who have searched for a voice to defend, understand and further by way of argument the teachings of their spiritual master Srila Prabhupada.
Since the Sampradaya Sun no longer believes that there is any more to be said regarding Srila Prabhupada’s final directive, baring new evidence, new arguments and new realizations, then this information should be put into their editorial policy. That way the readers may then ask Rochon Dasa, editor in chief for the Sampradaya Sun, for all of the data available which I’m sure he has, on ritvik-vada which is “old evidence, old arguments, and old realizations instead of telling them to “go google”
Rochon Dasa says above “'We offered to debate two of your Rtvik community's pandits, and they have both declined. At this juncture, I suggest that if you want a debate, you go to Madhu Pandit dasa, who is currently the Rtvik man in the limelight, and ask him to come to us seeking a debate. That, we would be inclined to pursue.”
Of course an ongoing debate is now impossible as the Sampradaya Sun, from Rochon Dasa’s own words says: From above:
“Prabhu, you know this is not a Rtvik site. You know our editorial policy regarding publication of Rtvik-vada. Why do you pretend that you don't? We are not required to have an editorial policy that suits you or the Rtviks as a group. We have our own policy, and it prohibits the publication of Rtvik propaganda.”
If you search the Sampradaya Sun Editorial Policy you will not see any reference to Ritivik-vada or even the word “ritvik”. So do they have a policy regarding “ritvik-vada” or not? Or is that policy concealed by a fence of deception?
Madhu Pundit Prabhu I am sure is much to busy these days to debate with Rochon Dasa and the Sampradaya Sun staff. After all, if Rochon Dasa cannot even answer the simple question I posed: "Now the question is: Where, using guru, sadhu, sastra is the proof that the July 9th 1977 letter has a time limit, what is the time limit and where is that indicated within or without the letter?"…then how could he engage in a debate with Madhu Pundit Prabhu.
There are many Vaisnava’s who are equally qualified who serve with Madhu Pundit Prabhu at ISKCON Bangalore who would be more than happy to fulfill Rochon Dasa’s wish for a debate.
The topic of disciplic succession will be on going until the end of Kali Yuga and must be refreshed from time to time with the defeat of rebelliousness. It is and always will be a most serious matter, it is for the protection of the whole world that we seek out and distribute the truth, challenging all comers that Srila Prabhupada meant exactly what he said verbatim in the May 28th 1977 conversation, the July 9th 1977 letter ( directive ) and confirmed again in October of 1977 here:
Srila Prabhupada: “Hare Krishna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?...So I have deputed some of you to initiate. I have already deputed… So, deputies…J’s name was there?
Disciple: “It is already there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was already on that list [ of deputies in the July 9th directive, stating that Srila Prabhupada’s authorized system for initiations “henceforward’].”
Srila Prabhupada: “So I depute him to do this…This initiation; I have deputed my disciples. Is it clear or not?”
Disciple: “It’s clear…We will explain to the Bengali gentleman, just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.” ( Conversation, October 18, 1977, Vrndavana )
------------*-------------
An open question to Rochon Dasa and the Sampradaya Sun.
“It would be very interesting to know what arrangements Srila Prabhupada made for initiations for the aftermath of his departure, what arrangements did he make?
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
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