Saturday, July 23, 2011

Discussion about BANGALORE ISKCON ys pd 07/23/11

FRANK: The battle of ISKCONs took an ugly turn on Friday as devotees of the Bangalore unit prevented the Mumbai bureau representatives from entering its premises. Foiled in their attempt to enter the temple, the Mumbai team left, declaring its intent to take legal recourse to gain control of the property. Apparently, the Mumbai team wanted to surprise the Bangalore ISKCON authorities as it landed without prior information in four cars. Madhupandit Das objected to the Mumbai ISKCON attempts to gain control of the city unit as the matter was still pending before the Supreme Court.

Bangalore: Mumbai Team Makes Vain Bid to Enter ISKCON Temple in City
Bangalore, Jun 3 (PTI): An attempt by a team from Mumbai ISKCON to enter the Bangalore unit temple was prevented by those managing it. Several activists owing allegiance ISKCON temple in the city blocked the entry of the Mumbai team headed by Varada Krishnadas, which came here in the aftermath of the state high court order which ruled that the city property was part of the Mumbai ISKCON.
Madhupandit Das, President of the Bangalore ISKCON, maintained he had approached the Supreme Court challenging the High Court order and till the apex court delivered its orders, Mumbai ISKCON cannot interfere in its working.

Passing orders on the property dispute between Mumbai ISKCON and the Bangalore branch, the court had last week given six week time for appealing against the verdict. A tense situation prevailed at the entrance of ISKCON temple complex at Mahalakshmi Layout where hundreds of activists of the Bangalore unit resisted Mumbai team attempts to enter it. The arguments between the two groups led to traffic blockade on the road, which has become a narrow in the wake of the on-going works for Metro Rail. Police intervened and brought the situation under control. The Mumbai team returned following protests.

Madhupandit Das objected to the Mumbai ISKCON attempts to gain control of the city unit as the matter was still pending before the Supreme Court.
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Fisticuffs and abuse near Iskcon temple
TNN | Jun 3, 2011, 11.56pm IST

BANGALORE: It was an unprecedented and shameful street fight, and lasted a good half-hour, as temple members scuffled in front of the Iskcon temple, shattering its peace with loud shouts and foul language. To the two groups — members of Bangalore Iskcon and the supervisory committee from Iskcon Mumbai– it did not matter that it is a sacred space for lakhs of Bangaloreans.

Problems began after the supervisory committee appointed by Iskcon Mumbai decided to enter the temple premises for an inspection, in the background of the property dispute between Iskcon Bangalore and Mumbai. Hearing the news, the Bangalore members gathered at the gate and locked it. Loud speakers fixed along the walls aired bhajans. Vehicles and visitors were checked before anyone was allowed inside the temple, which was turned into a fortress.

When the convoy of the supervisory committee arrived, a truck used for the Akshaya Patra programme, parked by the gate, was moved to cover the gate and prevent the car from entering. The Bangalore members surrounded the car and jammed the doors to prevent them from disembarking. A scuffle began after they managed to get out of the car. Dayaram Das, committee president, tried to walk into the temple and was stopped near the barricades.

The committee members moved away to interact with the media, and Iskcon Bangalore members followed them. A restaurant nearby had to shut down as people came rushing.

When all hell was breaking loose outside the temple, there were only three traffic policemen to handle more than 100 people and clear the road for traffic. A few meters away, in a small alley, a Karnataka Reserve Police Force unit and local police were stationed, but they did not intervene. An hour after the supervisory committee members were forced out of the temple, police teams arrived, including ACP CT Ajjappa. By this time, things had settled down. 

Srinivas Kumar: ‎@Akruranatha , who would call his spiritual master to lick ****** and this was told by Frank Hallenstein. Who would tolerate this most degradable comment on Srila Prabhupada. If we / I have scolded Frank, there is a solid reason. Some times, there is a reason to scold someone. He says he is a veteran. Veteran comes in for re-establishing Srila Prabhupada in His original position not in killing His own guru. Kindly understand this. External etiquettes are not very important. I have had enough conversations with @ Frank and got fed up with his demoniac nature.

Dayamayi Radhika ‎@Akruranath, on what basis you are making such allegations on Madhu pandit prabhu? Those are all false. As u are from LAW background at least you should make statements which really makes sense. We have told n no. times that this fight is not between Mpp ... and Iskcon Mumbai but with IB and IM. And regarding the property we are ready to give all the property and also surrender to the present GBC system if they accept Srila Prabhupada as the only spiritual master and not the pedophiles, murderers to their own spiritual master, womanizers, etc.

PADA: I know that some temples even in ISKCON have some ritviks there, because some of them sneak out, rent computers at the coffee house, and talk to me. I think it is better to try to keep these people than keep kicking them out? They are doing good service, why not keep them? ys pd
Agrāṇi Kṛṣṇa Dāsa: Dear Akruranatha Dasa Prabhu, when court case is concerned, it will be dealt in the court. That you leave aside. I can show hundreds of such cases which ISKCON has been loosing after the physical departure of Srila Prabhupada. I can also show you the amount of negative publicity ISKCON has got due to these gurus right from 1978. Let us not debate on that. The whole point of debate is July 9th Letter. And not the court case. 

Frank Hallenstein: Factually the court case has offered us a reality check from a detached perspective. Madhu pandit was formerly a disciple of an iskcon guru whom was accepted as a temple president for iskcon bangalore by the iskcon authorities. Mumbhai iskcon being the delegated head office on behalf of Srila Prabhupadas wishes that in india they are supreme. Madhu pandit according to the judges failed to prove his rather grand ascertions that iskcon bangalore was a seperate institution. Mumbai Iskcon is the real thing, Bangalore body fake: Karnataka high court Published: Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 8:22 IST
By DNA Correspondent | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA ....

Technically this means there is no future in arguing this scenario in court. The Karnataka high court observed that Iskcon, Bangalore was to conduct its first general body within 18 months of its registration in 1978 and elect a governing body. However, it had not done so which was a clear violation under the Section 1(2) of the Karnataka Societies Registration Act.

So madhu pandit has committed fraud,he miserably failed to prove the legal existence of Iskcon, Bangalore as an independent autonomous body, it said... He fabricated documents and was falsely claiming its right over the properties. There was no evidence on record to show that the properties were built by Iskcon, Bangalore...  Mumbai Iskcon is the real thing, Bangalore body fake: Karnataka high court SO YOU HAVE NO LEGAL CASE TO ARGUE.......! I have had a basic three year law backgound, the only way forward for iskcon bangalore is to argue that mumbhai iskcon represents the devil incarnate! Which though high risk, could succceed, however if it does not, it could very much backfire on madhu pandit and co, by allowing the judges to basically withdraw their lenient position on bangalore temple and there antics.

In essence they could be seen as completely unfit as preists and gaurdians of basic iskcon values, hence removed and made bereft of all opportunitys to progress as local iskcon representitives. Tim Lee seems very naieve, the response from my few Temple president friends is one of anger and determined resolve to simply get these ritvik-proxy people out of iskcon, no matter the cost! MADHU PANDIT AND CO, had fabricated documents and was falsely claiming its right over the properties. There was no evidence on record to show that the properties were built by Iskcon, Bangalore....
The court case is everything ...... we win it, you guys are gone, why should we have bangalore ritvik-proxy devotees in iskcon? They are not iskcon devotees they are ritvik-proxy followers of sahajiyaism, let them follow there hearts elsewhere....!
Agrāṇi Kṛṣṇa Dāsa ‎@Frank: If as per you Madhu Pandit Prabhu and Co had fabricated the documents, then how come we won in the trial court?
Krishnawatie Krishnapriya: I believe Madhu Pandit prabhu has been the intelligence and driving force in realising the Bangalore Temple. Now seeing such an opulent Temple being occupied by devotees who solely worship Srila Prabhupada as their Guru is the thorn in the ... eyes of the pseudo guru business guru's and their chamchas. That is the reason why they went to court to fight over the property. Factually the property belongs to Sri Sri Radha Krsna, as belongs everything else in the world to Them. Isavasyam idam sarvam ..... Now you people want to use these property to worship your gundas in grand style instead of Srila Prabhupada exclusively.

Dayamayi Radhika, Radhika Jsp and Srinivas Kumar like this

Agrāṇi Kṛṣṇa Dāsa On May 29th 39 devotees took shelter of Srila Prabhupada by taking initiation from him through the bonafide ritvik system. On Gaura Purnima around 300 devotees took initiation from Srila Prabhupada. And very soon another batch is being planned.. All bonafide RITVIK Initiations.
Krishnawatie Krishnapriya: You know what I would like to see: that all over the world simple villages were constructed where ritvik devotees would live and practise their Krsna consciousness, as was the case in the old ages, when individual gurus had their asramas. What use are such opulent Temples in the city if it results only in fights in the courts as to whom the earth and marmer belongs to?

Krishnawatie Krishnapriya grhe thako vane thako sadaa hari bole dhako.....
Krishnawatie Krishnapriya aa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje.
Agrāṇi Kṛṣṇa Dāsa Prabhupada desired that the temples should be the attraction of the city. ISKCON Blore is not just earth and marmer, it is the home for Prabhupada. And we should do everybit to save it from these money lingering monsters.

Krishnawatie Krishnapriya: Ahaituky apratihata ye atmaa suprasidati...unmotivated / ​unconditional is pleasing to the soul - that is the real business of the devotees, not fighting in courts. But of course when the Mumbai demons challenge the Bangalore devotees, they are obliged to respond. In fact they do not want anything but glorify SRILA PRABHUPADA AS DIKSA GURU OF ISKCON and practise the teachings of His Divine Grace. Just bear in mind Agrani Krsna prabhu, that even if the supreme court, corrupted as they are in India - manage to give Bangalore Temple to these rogues, it should not stop the true devotees to continue their devotional service under whatever circumstances they find themselves. As Duryodhana managed to cheat the Pandavas out of their opulently established Indraprastha, even if these rogues manage to steal away Bangalore Temple, you must remain strong in spirit and prepared to build everything from scratch if necessary, but especially never to become despondent. I am not saying this will happen, but best to have considered the worst scenario you may possibly find yourself. 

I AM NOT SAYING THAT MPP and RITVIK DEVOTEES IN Bangalore should offer everything to these rogues on a serving tray!!!!!!!!

Srinivas Kumar: ‎Krishnawatie Krishnapriya mataji ... don't worry... We won't lose the War... Even if we lose the temple, Devotees will start from scratch and maintain SP as the centre of Iskcon. This bogus people only want to remove SP in IB and loot the property. It is not going to happen so easily at all.
Abhaya Charanaravinda Dasi: You people never obeyed srila prabhupadas ritvik order and that belongs to ISKCON! why are u only concernced about srila prabhupadas properties.?? If srila prabhupada was here in vapu hed kik on your faces for turning his iskcon into a bogus society of guru frauds! and thats why mandhu pandit had to do what he did! none of the bogus iskcon follow the pure devottees final order all your concernced with his prabhupadas property!! and also prabhupada and lord chaitanya said its spritually illegal to ban anyone from temples! "Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Krsna, hear Bhagavad gita. We don’t say, “Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed.” We don’t say that. “Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed.” No. We don’t say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on.” (Srila Prabhupad Room Conversation, 16th July 1968, Montreal).

Krishnawatie Krishnapriya likes this Abhaya Charanaravinda Dasi “Similarly, the members of this Krsna consciousness society are sometimes refused entrance into some of the temples in India […]
Such dogmatic prohibitions were not approved by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.” (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 1:63, purport) The joke is if the banlagore temple was just a mud hut u wouldnt even want it u only want it becuz u are envoius and u want the deitys with all the expensive jewleery u hate to see a temple being run by the true ritvik folowers an especially one like bangalore but my bet is if it was a mud hut u wouldnt even care for it even if it did belong to iskcon lmao your just greedy lusty asuras.
Akruranatha Dasa: ‎>>and regarding the property we are ready to give all the property and also surrender to the present GBC system if they accept Srila Prabhupada as the only spiritual master<<
Well, they are not going to accept your ritvik theory, which is a...pasampradaya, so you may never "surrender" to the GBC. Fine. But what gives you the right to put conditions on giving back ISKCON's property? How did it become IB's property? It is IM's property. Also, what gives you the moral right to use the name "ISKCON" if you are in open defiance of the GBC?

Akruranatha Dasa Dear Agrani Krsna, you say: >>>Dear Akruranatha Dasa Prabhu, when court case is concerned, it will be dealt in the court. That you leave aside. <<< Why should I leave it aside? It is the very topic of discussion. If IB wants to leave it aside... they should not have contested it in the first place. If IB wants to leave it aside, why is it appealing to the Supeme Court? That is my point. Whatever you think about parampara, about ritvik, about guru tattva, about which devotees you respect and which ones you revile, should have nothing to do with whether you are honest in the matter of leaving ISKCON's property in the hands of ISKCON's authorized governance. 

Otherwise, you are essentially justifying stealing on the basis of your ideology about ritvik. Yes, possession may be 9/10th of the law, but the other 1/10th is actual property rights. The property rights question does not depend on ritvik versus parampara belief. You can go to the Bank of India and demand 50 crores on the basis of your belief in ritvik or in this guru, that guru, but they won't give you the cash unless you have a valid deposit account.

I agree they are two separate issues, but the issue of the property is important, and is completely unrelated to how you interpret the July 9th letter. 

Lenny Sislac: Right if ISKCON Bangalore would be a ruined skeleton temple like meanwhile so many western temples they wouldnt care a fig. Although everybody can see that this Prabhupada temple is attracting millions of people they want to destroy it and ...and to have a conditioned soul as guru installed. Because it is aparadha to think that Prabhupada can still initiate new devotees..When you ask them, how come prabhu that Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta both considered Jesus and his ritvik system of worship as bonafide: No thats not true we consider Jesus as humbug. To mention Jesus in present ISKCON is just about getting excommunicated. 

Akruranatha Dasa ‎>>I can show hundreds of such cases which ISKCON has been loosing after the physical departure of Srila Prabhupada.<< I am not claiming that winning or losing a court case proves anyone's being favored or disfavored by Krishna. I am actually trying to get you to disentangle the two issues: whether or not IB has a right to claim ownership and manage the property is, I agree, a completely separate issue from whether the parampara is supposed to stop with Prabhupada.
Even if you believe the latter, it does not follow that IB ows the property. It is apples and oranges.
I can imagine someone who is a thoroughly convinced ritvik-vadi, who nevertheless believes in turning the Hare Krishna Hills property over to ISKCON Mumbai. Such a person would have integrity, and be a hero in that sense. 

Lenny Sislac: ‎@Akruranatha Dasa: "Well, they are not going to accept your ritvik theory, which is apasampradaya" The only thing what is apasampradaya is to think that Prabhupada appointed Harikes, Bhagavan, Jayatirtha, Kirtananda &co to be successor acaryas, full fledged diksa-gurus. In other words, kanisthas who blooped, cheated and stole millions of laxmi. Thats an apasampradaya, what turns Prabhupada into someone who commits mistakes, conditioned soul. 

Tim Lee: The amazing thing is that in 1988 Lokanatha swami complained openly, in his Vyasa pooja offering to Srila Prabhupada, that there is a terrible mass exodus of the devotees from the ISKCON temples, he said -- the temples are now "empty, skele...ton crew" and he asked "where have all the devotees gone, the temples look like ghost towns?" Even he was complaining at the time that the GBC's gurus were ruining the movement. And the same people who made these temples into ghost towns want to now simply make some more temples into ghost towns. For example, the Long Island temple was renting out their hall to a Haitian Disco, which had dancing girls, booze and serving meat, and they had to shut that down due to so many complaints from the neighbors, now they are renting the temple hall as a bingo hall, all this because they kicked out all the devotees who used to run the place. I am not sure where Srila Prabhupada said he wanted to remove all the devotees and make his temples into Haitiian Discos and Bingo Halls? And now they want to make Bangalore into another Bingo Hall? ys pd

Akruranatha Dasa: ‎>> I can also show you the amount of negative publicity ISKCON has got due to these gurus right from 1978. Let us not debate on that.<< "These gurus" lumps every one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who have made their own disciples into the... same category.
I will be the first to agree that those who serve as gurus and other leading figures of ISKCON (sannyasis, preachers, TPs, GBCs) should be advanced devotees of impeccable character, and such devotees may in fact be very rare. Srila Prabhupada needed people to come forward and help him. He wanted them to be first class. He was trying to train some to be first class. I believe he did a very good job and was immensely successful. Still, a highly advanced Vaisnava fir to be worshiped by the whole world is a very rare thing in this day and age, or really in any day and age.

Nevertheless, we should respect every Vaisnava -- Rupa Goswami says to respect anyone who even pronounces the name "Krsna" -- and there is no call for the very low-class, sleazy, envious attacks on the character of every disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has committed what appears to be the cardinal sin in the mind of ritviks: namely, the sin of inspiring others to chant Hare Krishna worship Krishna and read Prabhupada's books.

I am so disgusted by some of the links on this site, which pronounce things like, "Bhakti-Tirtha Swami: Dead" Do you think that a person leaving his body makes him worthy of contempt? Or a person having a stroke or other infirmity? If that were the case, none of the departed Vaisnava acaryas would be worthy of respect. Nobody is saying you have to worship anyone you have no faith in or who does not inspire you, but why should you be upset that *others* are inspired bvy Srila Prabhupoada's disciples, many of whom have walked the razor's edge of strict Vaisnava discipline for decades?

Please read Prabhupada's books. Read Necatar of Instruction. Read Caitanya Caritamrta. Such envy of Vaisnavas is always condemned. 

Lenny Sislac: These are affected devotees who have got their lifes spoiled, what else should they say? Ok, there is the option of joining the GM and there you are told to never look back. These are the real devotees who never criticize? Unfortunately they are guru-tyagis who reject Prabhupada of having installed a disastrous managerial system. Thats what ISKCON accomplishes, a trial of devastation, thousands of Western devotees left and still they speak of apasampradaya, teaching what is right and wrong? 

Akruranatha Dasa: ‎>> The whole point of debate is July 9th Letter. And not the court case.<<
I agree they are two separate points, and should be addressed separately. I do not agree that the property question should not be addressed. I can see why you would ...want to leave it aside, because IB clearly has no legal right to the property and you do not want to admit that your cause is wrong and immoral on that question, which clearly it is.

As to the debate about the July 9th letter, I doubt there is anything new to be said. As far as I am concerned, "henceforward" in the context of the letter simply meant "from now until Srila Prabhupada's departure or any other intervening change". If Srila Prabhupada had wanted Tamal Krishna Maharaja to write that he was establishing a ritvik system for after his departure, it would have had to be a much more explicit letter.

Moreover, it would be expected to explain and defend what would appear to be a departure from the entire Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition and from everything Srila Prabhupada had written and spoken of about guru tattva and parampara for years. Srila Prabhupada always said he was not inventing something new but giving exactly the teachings he had received from his Guru Maharaja, without adding or subtracting anything. Therefore I cannot accept any interpretation of the July 9th letter that suggests that with a stroke of a pen -- Not even his own pen but TKG's -- and without any defense or justification on the basis of guru, sadhu and sastra, Srila Prabhupada would perpetuate such a departure from tradition.

But I admit, you and I will probably never agree about that. What I would like you to agree to, and I think you should admit, is that IB has no legal right to usurp the property of ISKCON, namely the temple on Hare Krishna Hills, and shouold graciously accept that the temple should be turned over to management that is loyal to the GBC and ISKCON. You may not agree with ISKCON or want to have any part of it. I can accept that. But then, why should you use its name and unlawfully usurp its rightful property? And why are you unwilling to discuss that specific issue?

Tim Lee: And lets not forget that two women wrote to me saying they are never going to the Boston temple because of the rats they saw there, nevermind hundreds of others who never go there period anymore. Lets face it, the GBC is putting Krishna into a ghetto on purpose so they can spend millions and millions and millions making sure lawyers have nice Mercedes. One of their followers told me recently -- they will spend more and more millions in the courts "for the next 100 years" -- so they can have the deity live with rats? Why not spend millions getting these deities out of the ghetto conditions they created? Where does Prabhupada say, put the deity into a ghetto and buy new Mercedes for lawyers? Sorry Akruranatha, the July 9th letter does not say vote in 230 gurus, most of whom would subsequently bloop. Where is that stated in the July 9th letter? ys pd
Lenny Sislac Thanks Tim Lee, that looks like property sharks who only care about real estate prices? Waiting till the price goes up and having a bold real estate business running. Those who live within the temples are of no interest for years.
Dayamayi Radhika ‎@ Frank, it is waste of time to reply to ur comments. we have many times defeated you. But you are such a (no words to describe you) that you keep repeating the same things. @ Akruranath:<<But what gives you the right to put conditions on giving back ISKCON's property? How did it become IB's property? It is IM's property.>>

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