Thursday, January 17, 2013

Mahesh's reply to GBC/ Bhakti Vikas mj / Rocana prabhus

Mahesh Raja prabhu's: 

REPLY to the GBC / Bhakti Vikas swami / Rocana Prabhu on their COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of BOTH Guru AND Ritvik Issue:

77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents: The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciple's book.” 

[PADA NOTE: First of  all, the GBC / Bhakti Vikas swami / Rocana / George Smith / Kailash and many others of that group always ask us, "Where does Srila Prabhupada 'legally document' that his worship should continue after his physical departure"? 

Yet if we look at the writings of other saints such as: Sukadeva Goswami, Arjuna, Lord Buddha, Sri Madhacarya, Sri Ramanujacarya, Lord Chaitanya, the Six Goswamis, Jesus, Haridas Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinode, Gaura Kishore Das Babaji, and many similar others -- its seems clear that NONE OF THEM ever wrote "a legal document" -- or any other specific documented order -- stating that they should be worshiped after their departure? We are not sure which, if any, actual saint has penned a legal document / order saying that, after I am gone -- my worship will continue? It seems that all of a sudden, after trillions of years of saints not writing documents ordering their continued worship, it is now a required legal document by these deviant folks, when it never has been required document previously for trillions of years?  

And it seems no small accident that the SAME people promoting all kinds of unauthorized and bogus "guru successors" are the SAME identical people asking us to "legally prove" that the worship of the bona fide saint Srila Prabhupada is authorized? So this entire issue is a little amazing in itself, that we Prabhupadanugas are expected to show "legal documents" or other forms of specific orders, which would authorize the continued worship of the acharya Srila Prabhupada, since saints are not generally writing legal documents that their worship has to continue? 

And when we were in India in 1972 Srila Prabhupada was asked if Jesus is still accepting sins despite that 2,000 years has passed, and he said yes, Jesus is still accepting the sins of the sincere followers. He also WARNED US many other times that us neophytes cannot take the sins, or they will get sick or fall down or both. There is now an epidemic of these neophyte ISKCON and Gaudiya Matha gurus getting sick and falling down, or both. In any case, Srila Prabhupada is giving us the divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha), how do we know?, because thousands of people are now getting purified by following his vani now. 

Yes, some folks ask us for written proof that Srila Prabhupada wanted to be worshiped after his departure, so what they are really saying is: that unless someone like Jesus writes a letter to his followers saying they must worship him after he is physically departed, they should not worship him later on? Thus the whole process of worship of Jesus needs to stop, because there is no official and legally "stamped and sealed letter from Jesus" saying -- his worship should continue? 

We suppose the fact that the Sun planet never writes us a letter saying, “I am illuminating the universe,” means — the Sun no longer is? This is silly, Jesus worship has to stop, because he did not write a legal letter saying his worship should continue? Incidently, this is what the Pharisees argued, Jesus has no letters of authority?

The general rule seems to be: Saints are worshiped while physically here and after they physically depart -- because they are saints, not because they write a legal document ordering their worship to be conducted after their departure? Srila Prabhupada is the greatest writer of VEDIC literature in the Western countries, why should not his books alone be ample "written evidence" that he deserves to have his worship continue?

Of course, this creates a problem for the "guru want - to - be" section, this would make all of us his peon representatives, and not his guru successors. So there is a mundane motive to minimize his worship and promote the worship of neophytes for material benefits.  

The idea that we neophytes were only meant to act as his representatives is of course well documented, and that is why these documents were hidden. For example, one hidden document was "the will." And the "last will of Srila Prabhupada" says -- ISKCON's properties (in the future when he is no longer here) will be managed by his initiated disciples (his representatives and not his guru successors) -- notice -- after he is no longer here means, he intended to continue to be the acharya by having his (indefinite future) ISKCON members initiated as his disciples -- because "the will" discusses his policy for after he departs.

Then again, how can conditioned souls (like us neophytes) be anything other than layman "representatives" of the guru anyway? Srila Prabhupada also confirms on May 28th 1977, that initiations in the future, when he is no longer here,  will be conducted by his ritvik representatives. That is the system he made for after he departs, and there is no evidence he appointed "guru successors." And yes, as the letter cited at the top says, the new disciples will still have their names put into the book as Srila Prabhupada's disciples AFTER HE DEPARTS.

Right now we are having a (typically) crazy conversation with a GBC guru follower. He argued with us for about two months that "you need to have a living guru." Of course, he could not tell us who that living guru is -- because of all the scandals connected to the current crop of living gurus. He ended up telling us -- he simply is a person with all kinds of material defects who tries his best to give people Krishna with his limited and faulty position. OK, he is de facto acting as a REPRESENTATIVE of the guru, not as a successor to the guru, that means he is doing exactly what we are doing! 

We told him, you have HI-JACKED and STOLEN our idea! In other words, more and more of the GBC's guru followers are adopting our ideas -- without even realizing it! Yes, a peon can only operate as a limited agent for the King, not as the King himself. Gradually, more people are accepting this concept. Even Rocana would probably agree -- he is only an agent for the acharya, so he is really doing what we are, but not admitting.]

Amar Puri Prabhu wrote to Rocana Prabhu and Rocana Prabhu Replies: “So who gave you permission, Amar Puri, to decide that the system will be changed upon his departure so that names get sent to someone else? Or not sent? Or whatever?” — Rocana

Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada had already given instruction of HOW he wanted the prospective disciples ACCEPTED. The system was ALREADY in place. Besides this, use of little COMMON SENSE is necessary. Srila Prabhupada had said (on the May 28th tape) that these representatives mail fail and have to be replaced. That means the people Srila Prabhupada is naming are not gurus, because they can only REPRESENT Srila Prabhupada. If the REPRESENTATIVE of the ACARYA falls down he can be replaced -- whereas gurus are eternal and are not failing and being replaced:

Note: His REPRESENTATIVE is the same idea as the Ritvik representative as per July 9th 1977 Order.

Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse:

"Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life -- illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a vaishnava servant and INITIATED to chant the HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or HIS REPRESENTATIVE for at least six months to a year. He is then  RECOMMENDED for a second initiations, during which a sacred thread is offered and the DISCIPLE is accepted as a bona fide BRAHMANA.

[PADA NOTE: Srila Prabhupada is once again saying his disciples can act as his representatives to bring in more disciples to him and his ISKCON.]

770528me.vrn Conversations

Tamala Krsna: Of course, if someone has a fall down, just like in the past some GBC men have fallen down…
Tamala Krsna: Then he should be replaced. But that’s a serious fall down, not some minor discrepancy.
Prabhupada: They must be all ideal ACARYA-LIKE. In the beginning we have done for working. Now we should be very cautious. Anyone who is deviating, he can be REPLACED.

[PADA NOTE: Correct, the priest is sometimes deviating and has to be replaced, the acharyas are not deviating and being replaced.] 

MRD: One can replace a Representative of the Acarya if he deviates, but one can NOT replace the DIKSA Guru. The diksha guru MUST be a Mahabhagavata OTHERWISE he is not a diksha guru. 

It is an offense in chanting to accept anyone as guru other than a Mahabhagavata:

NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: To consider the guru an ordinary man (who can fail and have to be replaced).

Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse: Maha-Bhagavata-srestho / brahmano vai gurur nrnam / sarvesam eva lokanam / asau pujyo yatha  harih / maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi / sarva-yajnesu diksitah / sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca / na guruh syad avaisnavah.

The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of guru.

Rocana Dasa in his “Church of Rtvik”: 

NOI 5: (Srila Prabhupada) “One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)

ROCANA: If one reads the above Purport, which contains the statement used by the HKS to support their position, it is clear that Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that a guru should ideally be an uttama-adhikari. We have to keep in mind, however, the fact that Srila Prabhupada is Himself an uttama-adhikari and a Sampradaya Acarya. At the time Nectar of Instruction was published, the reader had a choice to take initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada also clearly says in this quote that there are gurus in all three categories: kanistha, madhyama, and uttama-adhikari. 

He does not state that he is referring here to diksa gurus rather than siksa gurus. He does state that the problem with having a guru that is not uttama-adhikari is that the initiated can’t advance beyond the level of their guru’s realization. Consequently, he cautions that the disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as their guru. He does not say, however, that gurus in the other two categories are bogus, or are not part of the sampradaya, or are just pretending to be gurus but are actually not gurus. Clearly, the Hare Krishna Society would like you believe that he is saying these things. While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru.”

[PADA NOTE: This is the whole problem, the GBC / Rocana think that a neophyte devotee can absorb sins like Jesus.] 

Mahesh: we will just take a segment of his ERRONEOUS understanding of the DIKSA Guru AND PROVE HIM COMPELETELY WRONG THAT KANISTHA AND MADHYAMA ARE **NOT** DIKSA GURU as he SPECULATES:

[PADA NOTE: Correct, us neophytes (kanisthas) were told BY SRILA PRABHUPADA not to let others touch our feet, or else we would be acting as gurus, thus we would take other people's karma, and then we would get sick, fall down or both, because we are not qualified to act as a diksha guru and take other's karma. 

The neophyte is simply not capable of absorbing sins like Jesus and acting as a diksha guru. And thus, as we commonly see among these GBC gurus, they are constantly getting sick, falling down, or both, because they are not fit to take the karma of others. 

The GBC /  Bhakti Vikas swami / Rocana team are telling foolish people to rush in and go ahead and act as if they are on the level of Jesus, and absorb sins of other neophyte aspirants, because they have no idea what that post requires. Srila Prabhupada also says that the problem with the Gaudiya Matha was: that their gurus were kanisthas, and thus not fit to be gurus.]

Rocana Dasa: “While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. ”

[PADA NOTE: Rocana did not read the rest of the purport to this verse, it says when neophytes imitate the acharya they will eventually become degraded, that means there is an order for the neophytes: DO NOT  imitate the acharyas.]  

Mahesh: NOI 5 : “One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)

Some devotees are taking this above quote to mean that Kanistha can give Diksa. This is NOT what Srila Prabhupada says. There is NO mention of Diksa by kanistha. What it exactly says is about accepting DISCIPLES. Then suggests very strongly 2 points:

1) "..they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master."

2) "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari."

The question is: can a Kanistha give DIKSA from this quote? The answer is NO!

[PADA NOTE: Again, the kanistha is forbidden to try to act as an uttama and absorb sins like Jesus is doing. The NOI also warns that if the neophyte tries to imitate the uttama he will eventually become degraded. Not might, not maybe, he will DEGRADE! Guaranteed!]

MRD: So how can we establish that Kanistha does NOT give diksa? Kanistha is a QUALIFIED Brahmana. But even such a QUALIFIED Brahmana is still subject to MATERIAL CONTAMINATION. And because he still has MATERIAL CONTAMINATION he does NOT have full Transcendental Knowledge (divyam jnanam). What one does NOT have --- one can NOT give. And it is full Transcendental Knowledge that frees one from ALL MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.

Definition of Diksa: Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283): divyam jnanam yato dadyat / kuryat papasya sanksayam / tasmad dikseti sa prokta / desikais tattva-kovidaih

“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”

[PADA NOTE: Yes, this has been a big problem for these conditioned soul post-1977 ISKCON GBC gurus, they keep falling down into sinful behavior and scandals. At the same time, they claim that they are able to "vanquish all the sins" of their followers like Jesus is doing, but since they are not qualified to absorb even their own sins, how are they going to be able to free their disciples and others from sinful behaviors? They cannot save themselves from drowning, but they are going to save others from drowning? This is another major contradiction in their alleged guru process.] 

MRD: Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service: Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.

So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:

1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity

Now ask a simple question HOW can a Brahmana(Kanistha) who is NOT freed from MATERIAL CONTAMINATION give full and proper diksha -by which - one BECOMES FREED FROM **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?

Just take a look at how contradictory and stupid this looks:

Q1) HOW can a Brahmana (Kanistha) who is HIMSELF material contaminated free another person from **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?

SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation: 

The word vidhuta, meaning “cleansed,” is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango ‘sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. Then one is vidhuta-trilinga, cleansed of the contamination caused by the three modes of material nature.

Q2) If a Brahmana (Kanistha) had Transcendental Knowledge then why is in contaminated by goodness(sattva-guna)?

Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination

[PADA NOTE: Even though the demigods on the higher planets are all situated in the modes of goodness, that does not mean they are fully realized gurus. In fact, there is a chance they can fall back to earthly life. The mode of goodness is a good foundation basis for advancement, but its not complete in itself. Then again, since the post-1977 GBC gurus promotes the worship of illicit sex and so on, they are not even situated in the modes of tamasic ignorance, because even the most ignorant materialists do not worship illicit sex as their gurus.]

Q3) So HOW can a Kanistha(Brahmana) who HIMSELF is material contaminated does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge give another person Transcendental Knowledge to free him?
Common-sense: What you do NOT have you CAN NOT give to others.

770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari. arcayam eva haraye / pujam yah sraddhayehate/ na tad-bhaktesu canyesu / sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah

The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.

760206mw.may Conversations

Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”--all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”--that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.

Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science


This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata: dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca / amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya / yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca / vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya.

“A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”

Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way: samo damas tapah saucam / ksantir arjavam eva ca / jnanam vijnanam astikyam / brahma-karma svabhava-jam

“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)

In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said: samo damas tapah saucam / ksanty-arjava-virakta yah / jnana-vijnana-santosah / satyastikye dvisad gunah

“Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.”

730828BG.LON Lectures

So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. The relief means there is hankering, no more lamentation. These are the brahma-bhutah.

SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service

The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. 

A brahmana is the symbol of sattva gune, or the modes of goodness. And others, who are not in the mode of goodness, are either KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS, or less than sudras. The BRAHMINICAL stage is the highest stage of human life because of its good qualities. 

So one cannot become a devotee unless on has at least the QUALIFIES of a BRAHMANA. 

The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, Such a Brahmana has to become a VAISNAVA. In fact to be be actually in the TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A pure vaishnava is a liberated sould and is TRANSCENDENTAL even to the position of a brahmana. IN the material stage even a brahmana is also a conditioned soul because although in the BRAHMINICAL stage the concept of brahmana or TRANSCENDENCE is realized, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE of the Supreme Lord is LACKING. Oone has to SURPASS the BRAHMINICAL STAGE and reach the VASUDEVA stage to understand THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.

Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE

Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

760711CC.NY Lectures

Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things--servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya: 

The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revelation of ones CONSTITUTIONAL position (Svarupa) is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births -- NOT so cheap.

SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb: As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.

NoI 5: A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

Antya 4.192 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri: diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana / sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama / TRANSLATION: “At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.

TEXT 193
sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya/ aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya: TRANSLATION: “When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

TEXT 194 martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma / niveditatma vicikirsito me / tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano / mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai TRANSLATION: "The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me."

PURPORT: This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. 

However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).

Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED: SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila: In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.

NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 -- Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles

REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport -- Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati: "By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple."

Note: Divya means Transcendental, so HOW can a person who is NOT on the Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another? Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental. ‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara (Cc. Madhya 22.65). 

Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition. When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.

Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana: Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa: The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

MRD: Furthermore, here is my reply to Dusyanta Dasa which shows clearly that VAPU is NOT necessary and since Rocana Prabhu is Vapuvadi ALSO this will point his ERROR in understanding that VAPU (Physical form) of Srila Prabhupada is NOT necessary to TRANSMIT Diksa (DIVYA JNANA):

Duysanta dasa: The ritviks pretend to have a Diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared where as Srila Prabhupada has instructed to serve His vani after he has disappeared, its an eternal constant. So if you did not serve Srila Prabhupada’s vapuh how can you have a Diksa relationship???? Diksa is a personal relationship with a Diksa Guru not with a Book.

Mahesh: This is another concoction from your Vapu-vadi camp. WHERE does Srila Prabhupada say in his books that VAPU (physical form) is requirement for TRANSMISSION of Divya Jnana (Diksa)? Go on prove it Prabhu – we want evidence from Srila Prabhupada’s books ONLY.

SB 2.9.8 Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version: The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent. Note: In any case what the Vapuvadi camp got was FORMALITY INITIATION which Srila Prabhupada states is “That is not very important thing.” But the Vapuvadi camp want to make it that THIS is the main thing.

761016iv.cha Conversations: Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.

SB 4.8.54 Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest: Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.

Note: another thing is this FORMALITY INITIATION (1st and 2nd initiation) was conducted by representatives in many cases. So Srila Prabhupada was NOT EVEN at each and every place for fire sacrifice and name giving. Not only that BUT even the Gayatri Mantra was given in Tape and the instruction was given t o Temple Presidents.

Duysanta dasa: The relationship with Lord Krsna in His Bhagavad-Gita form is Shiksa Guru not Diksa Guru. So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You don't have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.

Mahesh: So now YOU Vapuvadi camp must hunt for another Diksa guru according to your OWN statement Srila Prabhupada disappeared: “So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form, His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.” These Vapuvadis have ZERO level of understanding on DIKSA.

Duysanta dasa: All you all did was to quote what the PROCESS of Diksa is-no problem. But what about your Diksa relationship serving Vapuh. When you serve Vani its Shiksa relationship. You have mixed up the types of relationships with the different Gurus when they are in their vapuh and when they are in their Vani.
Where does it say Shiksa Gurus dont take sins? What is the point in being so judgemental and aggressive, how is that a Vaisnava quality or are you just conditioned soul yourselves? Try to be more cool, better to have a cool head.

Mahesh: That is your concocted opinion from Vapuvadi camp. You have to prove that Srila Prabhupada’s physically presence( Vapu) is required to give Diksa. Prove it from Srila Prabhupada’s books.

Adi 1.99 The Spiritual Masters
One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.

Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.

Note: Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA.

SB 1.7.22 The Son of Drona Punished: The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

690113LE.LA Lectures: 
Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.

Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.

Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

Note: Why the Vapuvadis can NOT grasp that there is no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to transmit diksa is because they are in mode of IGNORANCE(TAMO GUNA):

740615rc.par Conversations
Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.

72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.


661121BG.NY Lectures
And uttamam. Uttamam means “which is transcendental.” Ut means “trans-,” and tama means “darkness.” So uttama means “the knowledge which is beyond this material darkness.” This material world is called darkness, and when the knowledge surpasses this material world, material knowledge, that is really called uttama.

760420BG.MEL Lectures
Pavitram idam uttamam. Uttamam. Ut mean udgata, transcendental, and tama means this material world, darkness.


1 comment:

  1. We would only hope that the GBCs, their gurus, and their followers would open-mindedly read this disertation.


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