Why Aren't Devotees Calling the Police?

NB: Hare Krishna!

I'm new and although I've been involved with ISKCON for the better part of ten years, I've kept clear of much of the controversy as I and those I know haven't been personally affected by it, I'm somewhat powerless to help etc. I know these things have happened, are happening, and at least in the near future will continue to happen. But if someone more knowledgeable could explain a few things to me I would be grateful.

Why exactly are these discussions happening? If my boss assaults me at work I will certainly not stop at telling his boss. I would call the proper government agency to deal with a criminal. If his boss didn't instruct me to immediately call the police I would absolutely question his judgment.

If a child, woman, or anyone is harmed at an ISKCON facility, why is the government not becoming involved? Is the victim brainwashed into a situation where they feel it improper to have the person arrested and sentenced? Are the proper authorities contacted and unable to help? Sometimes the family of a minor might not want to escalate the situation, but then it's the responsibility of a close outsider to call Child Protective Services.

How is it possible for the abuse of a minor to be the subject of discussion in a religious council without reference to current legal proceedings? If I'm assaulted at a Sunday feast I'm not going to the temple president for a resolution, I'm going to call the police.

Most of the conversations I've heard basically have an ultimatum of removing abusive individuals from positions of power within ISKCON, but that still leaves the same abusive people at large in the world. Sure we have responsibilities to our fellow devotees, but we also have responsibilities our entire society.

If I am misunderstanding the situation please clarify it for me. Thank you!

JR: OK which situation would you like to start with? From my own perspective, the most pressing situation of all is that a different issue needs to be discussed. Where is the origin of this skewed perception of duty, and how can devotees form a society which is more in accordance with true individual welfare in mind. Physically, spiritually, emotionally... If someone chose to be silent in the past, we have to deal with the cultural ideals that led them away from simple common sense.

[PADA: Correct, reporting child abuse to the police is common sense. If devotees as a group lack common sense, then the children under them will be in danger at every step.]

DK: Thank you for asking these intelligent questions.

S Dasi: The govt agencies have been notified continuously but any investigation can not go very far when there are so many "devotee" people covering things up. This is just what happens in these institutions. If you look up the definition of group think, it explains why people would rather conform than do the right thing.

VL: In a nutshell, I give this finger.

PA Dasi: I think it's because so many times the government is complicit and involved. I know in my case Australian and Indian government officials were involved right through. Yes I spoke to many detectives along the way but it never went anywhere also I was terrified and didn't want to go to court and testify which they needed me to do. A lot of victims simply fear the institution, and the leaders take advantage.

NB: May I ask why you were reluctant to testify? Sorry if it's a sensitive subject.

PA Dasi: Because I was worried I would be killed as well as my siblings.

GV: You should also consider, that retelling the traumatising events (and multiple times perhaps, due to how the court system works!) makes the trauma impact even worse.

Thus, child abuse cases are about the hardest.

DK Das: Yes this is exactly what is needed. When the predators sense they will face proper punishment they will not perform. Deal with the criminal. Most people blame others when something happens ... like their Guru ... when the illusion that "ISKCON is all perfect" fails. If devotee performs crime, then we should catch him, if the ISKCON authority fails to react.

TD: Why not to reset GBC and put in place people who would not tolerate such crimes within Prabhupada movement and would be willing to set in place executive forces that would strongly act on crimes within.

Maybe even change current managerial system to DOM?

Those who stayed for many years within ISKCON can see things are not managed properly at all and crimes are allowed and supported.

Why not new people to the GBC?

NB: Why do we need the GBC to serve under this capacity? This calls for changing of social dynamics, not reform of government.

TD: Yes... How to change the social dynamics with current GBC?

NB: I'm not even exactly sure what the GBC does. They decided who is allowed to initiate me, what's allowed in the books? What's the purpose. Social change starts with us.

TD: Grass roots changes ... yes thats the way most probably because from top the change won't happen. But eventualy changes has to be formalized if the insititution have to run... and definitely that's desire of Srila Prabhupada. This discussions are definitely good and should bring people understanding what's happening and what needs to be done.

But there must be at one pooint systematic approach. But i completely agree that radical change has to come if we want iskcon to get healthy and survive.

D Devi Dasi: Go ahead and do that which is what others have been trying for 45 years. If you think it's so easy … Please show everyone. You are working with people who have to be willing to band together and overthrow. It would actually take revolt physically because they are all brainwashed. 

The followers and most of the members residing in the temples are completely brainwashed and would never go along with replacing GBC. Think about what you're saying. It's not like anybody hasn't thought about that or tried and continue trying. But maybe you have all the answers and you can help us to do this. Organize it and talk to everyone and proceed with the overthrow.

GG: Otherwise time is already overthrowing them. They are losing powers all the time by constant bombardments of expose.

KD: Why do we need a GBC? What do they actually do? These are good questions? The GBC has always been problematic. Why do we need a GBC organization?

P Devi Dasi: In USA, devotees were preached to very strongly, trained, never to call the police or get the govt involved [bad for preaching, they would say]. Instead turn to their temple authorities. But most temple authorities did nothing, or had little power anyway. These days I hope [as long as they will remain safe] that devotees call the legal karmi authorities in USA and other countries that take it seriously. 

I don't have the solution for countries that do not take it seriously, but someone else on here might.

GV: Many years ago I read one GBC resolution, prohibiting ISKCON devotees to make complaints to officials outside ISKCON. Believed at that time, that it was for good causes...

KD: How would calling the police on child abusers and getting rid of them be bad for preaching? They never made the connection and people just accepted that assertion.

LH: Cult. Iskcon is a cult. It always has been and always will be a cult. Study any of the cults of the last 100 years, no matter the philosophy or truth they are founded on - you’ll see all the same happenings.

You have men in power, and everyone surrounding them - those closer to the top, find meaning and power just by association. And then there is everyone else. These men in power are held up there by other men, and at the cost of the safety of women and children.

The system is rigged to create an imbalance of power and anything that threatens that power is silenced or removed. It’s really that simple. The Truth and the fundamental need for purpose, community, and Truth / God- are all assets that are manipulated and exploited by the men at the top.

No matter how pure Krsna consciousness is - wrapped up in Iskcon’s hands - it will always be muddled and abused. Let the House Burn Down. Why are we so attached to it? Do you have so little faith that something better can’t actually be created?

GG: Nothing is better than giving Krishna a bad name. Let them burn things down themselves and they are doing a good job of it already.

S Das: Spot on, a cult it is, with brainwashed members unable to think critically. Iskcon was infiltrated by agents of Kali who hijacked the mission a long time ago. Srila Prabhupada was and still is a serious threat to the globalist agenda.

LH: Don't completely agree - but I don't hold Prabhupada in the same regard. He too was a human and imperfect.

KD: Prabhupada left the Gaudiya Math and started ISKCON when he thought thought the GM was too corrupt to fix. So people can do the same thing with ISKCON. You don't need ISKCON to practice KC.

KC: Great question. I would say in the case of child abuse, often the child is being abused (or neglected) by their close family members/caretakers themselves.  Those “caretakers” are expert at threatening the child victim into secrecy / isolation. The very person they are dependent on, who is meant to protect them IS the perfect perpetrator. Who do they go to? Who can they trust? They are children. This fear / manipulation / control will often follow into teenage hood / young adulthood, as is the usual case when it comes to victims of sex trafficking.

So this is a sticky topic, not so logically straightforward.

ES: Come on this is all nonsense. It's not because of the government and it's not because of the leaders covering up anything. It all depends on the victim. If they don't want to press charges (which is their right!) then it's just not going to happen. This is the case here. You cannot force victims to go through trial process and everything extremely taxing and retraumatizing. 

End of story. Nobody can do anything if the victim won't talk. And it's their personal decision not to press charges, it's not because of some parental or leader pressure. it’s a personal decision as adults now. let’s respect the right of silence of the victims. They need care, not everything is a conspiracy guys.

D Devi Dasi: I have a daughter who was in the gurukula and her and her friend were witness to the teachers in our movement abusing their friends downstairs. When the teachers realize they witnessed they also warned them they would kill their parents. it is not very intelligent to say that this is a conspiracy theory. The predators threaten to kill the families and this is a quite regular thing they do to keep the children from talking. 

You have no idea what you're saying if you want to proclaim this is conspiracy. When people like you throw out the word conspiracies so easily… It only makes me think you're a part of it. Maybe you don't mind child abuse? I not only have this direct experience but I also have others I have talk to who have had this experience involving their children as well. So please don't talk off the top of your head. What you say is not fact… It is fiction due to your own perspective and impatience with the subject matter.

ES: Trust me, I have direct experience of abuse too …  I am probably the age of your daughter. You don’t know my story. You don’t know what abuse I have been through. So think before you accuse me. How would you feel if someone would say that because your daughter says that victims have a right to not press charges (because they do not want to retraumatize themselves with a trial) they they are okay with abuse too? 

I was not talking about children. Obviously children can be threatened by the predators and so on, but the victims are adults now and can’t be threatened in the same manner. And they have the right to not press charges. 

I am not blaming them, on the contrary, I am protecting their right. All I’m saying that its not all immediately the government or the leaders covering up things, but it’s also the free will of the now adult victims, which should be respected. No matter what protection they and their families receive, if they do not want to get on the witness stand, (UNDERSTANDABLY SO) then that is their right, and that means there will be no trial. Do not ever accuse me of being okay with child abuse. You don’t know who I am and what I have been through.

D Devi Dasi: My reply was not to say that it is conspiracy theory when we speak about those who were threatened if they go to authorities. That is what my reply was about. I never said there are no cases of those who simply choose not to press charges and get on the stand in court. Yes some choose not to for one reason or another but that's not what my comment was about. I was standing up for the ones who were threatened and that is not a conspiracy theory. No reason to throw that in because I think everybody knows that not everything is about conspiracy theories.

ES: Then do not get personal with me and throw in accusations against me mataji. Because my comment was not about predators threatening children that if they tell anyone about the abuse they or their family will be harmed. That happens in basically every abuse case and it stops the victims from speaking up. 

My comment was about people seeing this Qanon type of pedofile ring made up of every Iskcon leader and every government official. And they blame the reason this whole story has not gone to court on that. That “every single person is in on it”. That’s nonsense. And a completely different topic to the reason why victims don’t speak up (which is the threatening).

GG: That is what some, maybe many believe, ISKCON is another Qanon pedophile conspiracy program, a child sacrificing cult and the leaders are demons from the Draco constellation etc. ISKCON is another Pizza-gate, run by the demons. Why wouldn't some believe that, especially if they are victims. And why would they not fear taking on the demons from the Draco constellation? 

D Devi Dasi: I don't think you need help to understand anything. A lot of us have been talking exactly like this for the last 45 years. In the early days there were two at least large abuse cases that were taken to the courts.

And then the trouble also is trying to get the victims to come forward which has been happening a lot more lately.... but still a problem for sure. Generally this happens in the world today as well (not just in our movement) Due to threats to the family it has been tough to get victims to surface. 

A lot of the children in the 70s and 80s were threatened that their parents would be killed if they say anything. We also have had adults being abused and even they had a problem with coming forward without being fearful. I think that's the main reason. Hopefully all these talks will bring more awareness and less fear of going to proper authorities to get these molesters out of our movement. 

I think it helps our preaching to come clean and pluck these perverts out of our movement… Instead of trying to cover it up. keeping quiet hurts the preaching a lot more... but the authorities still want to keep it quiet. I think you have presented things very nicely here in this post. Learning the history of what really happened will help you see that it's the same human struggles that have gone on in society… Happen in the movement as well and also in other religions within the society. Nothing new… But it has to stop!

LV: Prajalpa. At least we should mention Brahma abusing his daugther, to make some connection with Krishna...

GB: As Vaishnavas we are supposed to be full of compassion for other living entities. Caring about the well-being of other people is most important to our spiritual lives, and trying to directly relate the conversation to scripture, while well-meaning, only serves to harden our hearts.

D Devi Dasi: First learn the definition of prajalpa and then you can make a judgment what is and is not prajalpa. if the talk is in relationship to Krishna and service of the Devotees.... it is NOT prajalpa. And bringing up the example of lord Brahma does not justify sinful activities should go unpunished. next time you comment please have facts and philosophy to support what you say.


LB Devi Dasi: Of 1000 cases of abuse 25 get convicted. In ISKCON almost none.

KP Dasi: Yes, and jurisprudence is tricky. A law cannot cover all possible veriables that comes to the table with a case. Therefore, very often, criminals can’t be convicted allthough it’s obvious they are guilty. They can only convict according to the parameters of the law, which is always flawed.

To get justice in a court is often far fetched.

Then, when it comes to child abuse, with all the trauma coming with it, it will simply add to the injuries to be cross examined.

LB Devi Dasi: Yes, and then it gets even worse for the victims, please consider the victims here, focus on them.

JR# 2: The leaders are not devotees, they are agents from outside organisations to destroy dharma, if you really want details contact me.

TP: My thoughts as well. Some of them are agents provoking the mess to bring down any progress.

JG: Sounds like the system is protecting this criminal behaviour, the question is why. Sounds like the Vatican's attitude to their bigots. A Class action can be made on the basis of Abuse Law to rectify the injustices caused.

If the system is not supporting the aggrieved, someone should inform them of their rights and / or be whistle-blower. So would any aggrieved be prepared to testify against the person? If not, there is an argument of innocent until proven guilty.

LB Devi Dasi: The GBC doesn't deal with abuse cases CPO does, and they are independent from the GBC

GG: And a CPO that has no teeth will not get real justice. Go to law enforcement and get the leaders arrested for neglect and aiding and abetting.