THE WHOLE SYSTEM MUST CHANGE, NOT JUST THE CURRENT LEADERS:
“Prabhupada is the direct representative of Krishna. Satsvarupa is the direct representative of Prabhupada. Prithu is the direct representative of Satsvarupa, xxxx ( our TP at the time) is the direct representative of Prithu, and I’m the direct representative of xxxx,” my Sankirtana party leader screamed at me one day, over some triviality, forcing me to do what he wanted.
We were both in the movement barely a year, and like almost everyone reading this, we had really misunderstood and misapplied the philosophy. Like frogs slowly brought to boil in a pot, we had morphed from the idealism the day we first joined, to accepting some really screwed up things.
I’m glad I never had a position of leadership in Iskcon, as I would have acted similarly. We could be so cruel and impersonal. In our endeavor for the perfect Sadhana we often neglected affairs of the heart. I remember us speaking harshly of a new devotee who wasn’t tough enough to make it, after he had ‘blooped’. We were disdainful of the Karmis and looked down with contempt on the “fringies.”
[PADA: I was considered a fringie because I was not marching lock step with the imperious Darth Vader leaders. Hee hee.]
We were trained up in an authoritative uncaring, unforgiving, militaristic (it was after all a battle against Maya every day) autocracy. It’s in our DNA, that we’ve been trying to get rid of since we left. It’s in the DNA of Iskcon. A Top down undemocratic, unelected system. A system, that unless it is changed, there’s a good chance that things will go right back to the same abusive ways, in a few years.
As long as we have a system of self appointed, unelected GBCs regional secretaries, and Temple Presidents the problem will remain. NB dasa alluded to this in his post. We all know the scenario. I’ve travelled a lot and met so many devotees from all over the world and it’s a carbon copy situation wherever I go.
A GBC, or more often a Temple President, who is either a good manager but a mini tyrant, or a TP who has a decent enough heart, but can’t manage for shit, and is running the place into the ground, but won’t listen to anyone. The result is the same. 95% of the original devotees, who gave their life and blood to the movement are completely disillusioned and have left. And more are leaving now once they found out about the extensive abuse problem.
Because no matter what they do, they can’t effect any change in the society because of it’s system. It’s partially why BVP got away with his "house of horrors" for so long. As a young devotee not in power, you thought if you stood up during the SB class in Mayapur or your home temple, and spoke up, you’d be tossed out as quick as you could say ritvik.
Global Duties https://gbc.iskcon.org/gbc_res/GBC_Global_Duties_2017.pdf
Iskcon Law Book https://ia600205.us.archive.org/.../Isk.../IskconLawBook.pdf
PR: It will probably take Krishna, and Kala and Death to change some of them. But if there was an overwhelming reaction from a lot of their disciples it might push them. Also a lot of adverse publicity. Imagine a local TV station sticking a microphone in the face of one of them, asking why they let child abusers stay and moved them around. I have a feeling Api Ceto, wouldn't exactly work. You'd see them stammer and stutter in fear, because they're caught.
RRB: Time for more drastic actions to be taken. I think it would be an excellent idea if somebody organized a protest and a huge group of devotees to gather outside of whatever building the GBC is meeting. No justice, no peace. How can they ignore a giant crowd of angry and fed-up people who are willing to take a stand? We can’t just be keyboard warriors. But who will do this? I wish I could…
SA Dasi: Yes, we've discussed this. Not feeling too confident about protesting in Mayapur, would be very dangerous.
RRB: Yes, it would be very dangerous, but either way there is danger - danger for children or danger in fighting for the rights of children.
PR: A good example of this is the 3 Sanyasis who most publicly supported him (BVP). IDS, BBG and SRS. So Sivaram made an outrageous statement when this first came out. Will anyone in the Hungarian yatra dare challenge him?
Probably not.
Most of the leaders are his disciples. If not they’re close to him or stuck in a sycophantic relationship with him. His disciples will be terrified of committing the greatest of Aparadhs by criticizing him. Even if someone challenges him. What happens. They’ll get kicked out of the community.
The GBC will back him up. His position of power is like that of a mini dictator. So he abuses that power. He stays friends with a monster because he’s immune to any consequences.
(although lately thank God they’ve all been finally feeling the heat.)
Edit: this is way too much power for any one person, and almost everyone of them have proved they are totally unfit to have so much power. It’s not just bad for iskcon and the spiritual life of us. It’s disastrous for their own spiritual life.
JS: SRS is an acharya in Hungary, not even just a guru, GBC, or a sannyasi. in a practical sense, Hungarian Iskcon is totally independent of Iskcon Global. Iskcon Hungary is kinda his private Company. He writes his own books, with his interpretation, thousands of pages. it is out of a question of challenging him, if anyone tries it then he / she is of course out, yes. if you do not like how he is doing things then you are free to go as you never existed also if you were initiated by him.
PR: Yes it’s a private kingdom.
SS: Once you start chanting, you can’t even stop for the ten offenses preclude any exit from the self-hypnosis.
DD: http://www.harekrsna.org/pada/documents/dom.htm
Srila Prabhupada's Direction of Management DOM For an Elected GBC
HAREKRSNA.ORG
Srila Prabhupada's Direction of Management DOM For an Elected GBC
AK: Can you please reveal your real name PR? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym??
PR: Why shouldn’t I. Have you seen the threats of violence that people get from so called brahmanas who are disciples of some of these gurus? Do you know how many of Lokanatha’s disciples threatened physical violence on the young devotee women who protested?
AK: Sorry to hear that things have come down to such a low level!!
K Dasa: May be an image of text that says 'Too late, all iskcon gurus was always connected with each other they entertain, make fun, travel and live in luxary life now the have no strength stamina and balance to remain gurus, i recomend every country in the world where iskcon are to re-initiate all devotees with a maha fire sacrifice and fully coñnect to srila prabhupada for fora a better iskcon. Hare krsna.
“Prabhupada is the direct representative of Krishna. Satsvarupa is the direct representative of Prabhupada. Prithu is the direct representative of Satsvarupa, xxxx ( our TP at the time) is the direct representative of Prithu, and I’m the direct representative of xxxx,” my Sankirtana party leader screamed at me one day, over some triviality, forcing me to do what he wanted.
We were both in the movement barely a year, and like almost everyone reading this, we had really misunderstood and misapplied the philosophy. Like frogs slowly brought to boil in a pot, we had morphed from the idealism the day we first joined, to accepting some really screwed up things.
I’m glad I never had a position of leadership in Iskcon, as I would have acted similarly. We could be so cruel and impersonal. In our endeavor for the perfect Sadhana we often neglected affairs of the heart. I remember us speaking harshly of a new devotee who wasn’t tough enough to make it, after he had ‘blooped’. We were disdainful of the Karmis and looked down with contempt on the “fringies.”
[PADA: I was considered a fringie because I was not marching lock step with the imperious Darth Vader leaders. Hee hee.]
We were trained up in an authoritative uncaring, unforgiving, militaristic (it was after all a battle against Maya every day) autocracy. It’s in our DNA, that we’ve been trying to get rid of since we left. It’s in the DNA of Iskcon. A Top down undemocratic, unelected system. A system, that unless it is changed, there’s a good chance that things will go right back to the same abusive ways, in a few years.
As long as we have a system of self appointed, unelected GBCs regional secretaries, and Temple Presidents the problem will remain. NB dasa alluded to this in his post. We all know the scenario. I’ve travelled a lot and met so many devotees from all over the world and it’s a carbon copy situation wherever I go.
A GBC, or more often a Temple President, who is either a good manager but a mini tyrant, or a TP who has a decent enough heart, but can’t manage for shit, and is running the place into the ground, but won’t listen to anyone. The result is the same. 95% of the original devotees, who gave their life and blood to the movement are completely disillusioned and have left. And more are leaving now once they found out about the extensive abuse problem.
Because no matter what they do, they can’t effect any change in the society because of it’s system. It’s partially why BVP got away with his "house of horrors" for so long. As a young devotee not in power, you thought if you stood up during the SB class in Mayapur or your home temple, and spoke up, you’d be tossed out as quick as you could say ritvik.
You felt powerless to change things. Even when a group of devotees revolted against the local TP, as long as he had the backing of the GBC, nothing changed. As long as the local GBC had the backing of the GBC board, nothing happens. And the revolutionaries gave up over time and left.
POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.
POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.
And there are few places outside of third world dictatorships where such absolute power exists, like in the higher echelons of Iskcon. Many of the guys who stormed the gates in 86 and overthrew the Zonal Acharya system, had good motivations. Sure some couldn’t wait for their own Vyasana, and disciples, but others were well intentioned. But in our own Iskcon version of Animal farm, they’ve become encrusted into the corrupt system. Corrupted by the absolute power they have, pathetically hanging on in quite desperation to the positions they don’t want to cede.
Unless we change the entire system to elected GBCs with limited terms, elected Temple Presidents, overseen by boards that are elected, and have many more checks and balances. Eg. No Sanyasis or gurus on the GBC etc there’s every change that it will fail again. There has to be an entire overhaul of the cruel impersonal autocratic system Iskcon has operated under. It’s not fit for purpose. We really need a revolution. The time for change has come and it's now.
JC: It is a combination of system and people. I joined that very system in Ireland. Things weren't perfect but my experience wasn't like the above.
PR: You joined later. I also joined in Ireland. That's the way it was back then. There's only so much you can write in a post. I edited out this line before I posted. "Younger devotees will probably be bewildered or shocked at some of what we did." I know Tribhuvanatha Das was a much kinder gentler soul, and he took care of his people.
JC: I was trained by S Dasa and a cmte. But yes. I am aware the system was overwhelming for most of us ...
A Devi Dasi: Finally, we are getting close to the root of the problem . This is a constructive article!
PR: Thank you.
JS: The boycotting of their system is the only way: Satyagraha in Iskcon.
ReplyShare8h
PR: I wouldn’t say it’s the only way. But it’s definitely one way that may put pressure on them.
JS: They only give a sh*t to pressure. They only listen when they are threatened to lose it all. As long as they can practice their power over others and they can control the institutions, local leaders and money, then they are okay. It was okay for 30 years it will be okay for another 30 then.
GS: Someone said if you put good people in bad systems you get bad results.
And who creates bad systems? People with ulterior motives.
U Devi Dasi: Well articulated and spot on!
TB: Very good point. Preachers should never be directly in charge, to be active preacher, specially sannyasi, should mean philosophy and no management. Those people have to be renounced of material possessions and material activity and any concept of home, belonging than service and mission. And people in charge have to be selected and only for specific time.
Unless we change the entire system to elected GBCs with limited terms, elected Temple Presidents, overseen by boards that are elected, and have many more checks and balances. Eg. No Sanyasis or gurus on the GBC etc there’s every change that it will fail again. There has to be an entire overhaul of the cruel impersonal autocratic system Iskcon has operated under. It’s not fit for purpose. We really need a revolution. The time for change has come and it's now.
JC: It is a combination of system and people. I joined that very system in Ireland. Things weren't perfect but my experience wasn't like the above.
PR: You joined later. I also joined in Ireland. That's the way it was back then. There's only so much you can write in a post. I edited out this line before I posted. "Younger devotees will probably be bewildered or shocked at some of what we did." I know Tribhuvanatha Das was a much kinder gentler soul, and he took care of his people.
JC: I was trained by S Dasa and a cmte. But yes. I am aware the system was overwhelming for most of us ...
A Devi Dasi: Finally, we are getting close to the root of the problem . This is a constructive article!
PR: Thank you.
JS: The boycotting of their system is the only way: Satyagraha in Iskcon.
ReplyShare8h
PR: I wouldn’t say it’s the only way. But it’s definitely one way that may put pressure on them.
JS: They only give a sh*t to pressure. They only listen when they are threatened to lose it all. As long as they can practice their power over others and they can control the institutions, local leaders and money, then they are okay. It was okay for 30 years it will be okay for another 30 then.
GS: Someone said if you put good people in bad systems you get bad results.
And who creates bad systems? People with ulterior motives.
U Devi Dasi: Well articulated and spot on!
TB: Very good point. Preachers should never be directly in charge, to be active preacher, specially sannyasi, should mean philosophy and no management. Those people have to be renounced of material possessions and material activity and any concept of home, belonging than service and mission. And people in charge have to be selected and only for specific time.
And no preaching any more that TP is representative of Krsna. This attitude has destroyed so many lives and therefore we have / had top servants all over the world last 50 years who run away from the movement to never come back in this lifetime again. We can not treat people after joining like they are a piece of s....
Therefore we are still a bad sect in public eyes. Besides tremendous service and countless books, hundred of thousands of initiated members so much Prasadam distributed and so on... We have to ask ourselves, where are all those people that helped build this movement? Why are they gone? How got they treated? And more important than everything else we have to learn from that and make changes. Unless we don't make some intelligent changes those mistakes will continue to be regular practice in this movement.
NR Dasa: After the big kuli lawsuit in iskcon, in Dallas the devotees that came in to run the temple after are a bunch of corrupt politician type. They use manipulation and intimidation to control everything. Swamis wont do anything because they are only a status symbol to give the impression of authority but they are only show bottle leaders. The corrupt mafias that have thrived in the atmosphere rule with an iron fist.
NR Dasa: After the big kuli lawsuit in iskcon, in Dallas the devotees that came in to run the temple after are a bunch of corrupt politician type. They use manipulation and intimidation to control everything. Swamis wont do anything because they are only a status symbol to give the impression of authority but they are only show bottle leaders. The corrupt mafias that have thrived in the atmosphere rule with an iron fist.
The tp are just as useless and act like the guru sannyasis do by only putting bandaids on issues instead of fixing them. The corrupt leaders remain, why? They save the temples money regardless of them represent or exemplify the principles of bhakti. If they make followers (cattle that bring in the money) or they know how to cheat in business or have some twisted knowledge of the law yes they are fit leaders. Iskcon is corrupt inside and out.
BC: That means that we should give up temples. The GBC has no power over the individual sadhaka at home (beyond approving the gurus to choose, I suppose, but then the guru has only so much power as the disciple gives him). It has financial power, funds from the temple book distributors and donations, and they have enforcers that can kick someone out of a temple, or even to terrorize the malcontents who want to retain the connection to the temple.
BC: That means that we should give up temples. The GBC has no power over the individual sadhaka at home (beyond approving the gurus to choose, I suppose, but then the guru has only so much power as the disciple gives him). It has financial power, funds from the temple book distributors and donations, and they have enforcers that can kick someone out of a temple, or even to terrorize the malcontents who want to retain the connection to the temple.
All material contributions feed the GBC, and money and obedience is their only nutrients. We can only punish them through these means. Besides that, those in the know may submit evidence of wrongdoing to mundane authorities.
Otherwise that means Deity worship only at home, no daily organized program ready-made, no street sankirtan (a good riddance if you ask me), and only congregational bhajans. Those who want opulent worship will have to go to work to create the funds for it. An underground movement. You cannot really expel them from their present asset. It is a good time to practice some detachment...
KM: Without a proper spiritual guide as a head there is no chance for change. These kanisthas are afraid of their positions, so they will not allow it and manipulate their followers with false propaganda.
AK: https://youtu.be/PPyhuVl8sww
Not sure if it is appropriate to post this, but some ppl might find it informative.... these issues are complex and you can't really meme it out. The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics w/ Bruce Bueno de Mesquita
YOUTUBE.COM
ND: As we can see it's mostly the grandisciples coming as one voice "leading the charge" so far but do we have enough likeminded influential Srila Prabhupada disciples first of all who can seriously "work together" publically campaigning for change? Their influence for sure will be crucial in communicating any negotiations.
SA Dasi: Is there anything in the GBC rules that has anything to say about disbanding, replacing, or what to do if things go wrong? I don't think there is. These guys aren't going anywhere and the ones they choose to replace anyone who has left are just like them. I could see these kinds of changes at the local level--electing board members to manage things--but not at the international level. I'm really not sure how to get the GBC to change. Mayapur meetings are coming up in February.
Otherwise that means Deity worship only at home, no daily organized program ready-made, no street sankirtan (a good riddance if you ask me), and only congregational bhajans. Those who want opulent worship will have to go to work to create the funds for it. An underground movement. You cannot really expel them from their present asset. It is a good time to practice some detachment...
KM: Without a proper spiritual guide as a head there is no chance for change. These kanisthas are afraid of their positions, so they will not allow it and manipulate their followers with false propaganda.
AK: https://youtu.be/PPyhuVl8sww
Not sure if it is appropriate to post this, but some ppl might find it informative.... these issues are complex and you can't really meme it out. The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics w/ Bruce Bueno de Mesquita
YOUTUBE.COM
ND: As we can see it's mostly the grandisciples coming as one voice "leading the charge" so far but do we have enough likeminded influential Srila Prabhupada disciples first of all who can seriously "work together" publically campaigning for change? Their influence for sure will be crucial in communicating any negotiations.
SA Dasi: Is there anything in the GBC rules that has anything to say about disbanding, replacing, or what to do if things go wrong? I don't think there is. These guys aren't going anywhere and the ones they choose to replace anyone who has left are just like them. I could see these kinds of changes at the local level--electing board members to manage things--but not at the international level. I'm really not sure how to get the GBC to change. Mayapur meetings are coming up in February.
Global Duties https://gbc.iskcon.org/gbc_res/GBC_Global_Duties_2017.pdf
Iskcon Law Book https://ia600205.us.archive.org/.../Isk.../IskconLawBook.pdf
PR: It will probably take Krishna, and Kala and Death to change some of them. But if there was an overwhelming reaction from a lot of their disciples it might push them. Also a lot of adverse publicity. Imagine a local TV station sticking a microphone in the face of one of them, asking why they let child abusers stay and moved them around. I have a feeling Api Ceto, wouldn't exactly work. You'd see them stammer and stutter in fear, because they're caught.
RRB: Time for more drastic actions to be taken. I think it would be an excellent idea if somebody organized a protest and a huge group of devotees to gather outside of whatever building the GBC is meeting. No justice, no peace. How can they ignore a giant crowd of angry and fed-up people who are willing to take a stand? We can’t just be keyboard warriors. But who will do this? I wish I could…
SA Dasi: Yes, we've discussed this. Not feeling too confident about protesting in Mayapur, would be very dangerous.
RRB: Yes, it would be very dangerous, but either way there is danger - danger for children or danger in fighting for the rights of children.
PR: A good example of this is the 3 Sanyasis who most publicly supported him (BVP). IDS, BBG and SRS. So Sivaram made an outrageous statement when this first came out. Will anyone in the Hungarian yatra dare challenge him?
Probably not.
Most of the leaders are his disciples. If not they’re close to him or stuck in a sycophantic relationship with him. His disciples will be terrified of committing the greatest of Aparadhs by criticizing him. Even if someone challenges him. What happens. They’ll get kicked out of the community.
The GBC will back him up. His position of power is like that of a mini dictator. So he abuses that power. He stays friends with a monster because he’s immune to any consequences.
(although lately thank God they’ve all been finally feeling the heat.)
Edit: this is way too much power for any one person, and almost everyone of them have proved they are totally unfit to have so much power. It’s not just bad for iskcon and the spiritual life of us. It’s disastrous for their own spiritual life.
JS: SRS is an acharya in Hungary, not even just a guru, GBC, or a sannyasi. in a practical sense, Hungarian Iskcon is totally independent of Iskcon Global. Iskcon Hungary is kinda his private Company. He writes his own books, with his interpretation, thousands of pages. it is out of a question of challenging him, if anyone tries it then he / she is of course out, yes. if you do not like how he is doing things then you are free to go as you never existed also if you were initiated by him.
PR: Yes it’s a private kingdom.
SS: Once you start chanting, you can’t even stop for the ten offenses preclude any exit from the self-hypnosis.
DD: http://www.harekrsna.org/pada/documents/dom.htm
Srila Prabhupada's Direction of Management DOM For an Elected GBC
HAREKRSNA.ORG
Srila Prabhupada's Direction of Management DOM For an Elected GBC
AK: Can you please reveal your real name PR? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym??
PR: Why shouldn’t I. Have you seen the threats of violence that people get from so called brahmanas who are disciples of some of these gurus? Do you know how many of Lokanatha’s disciples threatened physical violence on the young devotee women who protested?
AK: Sorry to hear that things have come down to such a low level!!
K Dasa: May be an image of text that says 'Too late, all iskcon gurus was always connected with each other they entertain, make fun, travel and live in luxary life now the have no strength stamina and balance to remain gurus, i recomend every country in the world where iskcon are to re-initiate all devotees with a maha fire sacrifice and fully coñnect to srila prabhupada for fora a better iskcon. Hare krsna.
SS: Hear hear!
JM: All great points.
GF: Who is checking them?
JM: All great points.
GF: Who is checking them?
GG: They are checking themselves, and that is the whole problem. There is no checks and balances. The MAFIA is doing their own bookeeping audits. I think public expose and even public protests are the only way to make them listen. I am educating the people in my world, and we all need to do the same. The pen is mightier than the sword.
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