PADA (to Eric): People such as: the GBC / Gaudiya Matha / Rocana / Kailash / Torben / Hanuman Croatia types (and similar others) have been saying that Sulochana was not discussing the word "ritvik" in 1986, so the term was a latter day added on "concoction." For starters, that is because: the May 28th 1977 "ritvik appointment" tape was not being released to the public prior to Sulochana obtaining a copy of the tape in 1985, so most people were not able to see the word "ritvik" being used from when it was being discussed in 1977.
OK the information about the "ritvik order" was being HIDDEN and suppressed by the leaders.
We also see that Tamal said in 1977 -- we (GBC) were having discussions with Srila Prabhupada on this ritvik topic -- before -- May 28th. That means there would be many other "ritvik" tapes, but those tapes are evidently no longer existing. Hidden? Gauridasa Pandit and Yasodanandan were there, and they both confirm that ritvik was being discussed more in detail at the time. BV Puri Maharaja also said Srila Prabhupada had told him that he was only going to appoint ritviks and NOT GURUS (this is on a video).
And the 1977 "conversations books" were ALSO not printed until way LATER, around 1990, so me and Sulochana had no access to any of the 1977 "ritvik" conversations in the mid - 1980s. Notice that Sulochana had to bribe an archives devotee to get a copy of the May 28th "ritvik" tape and a microfiche of the letters. And as soon as Sulochan published the May 28th tape, especially in early 1986, he was murdered shortly after that. To say Sulochana never used the word "ritvik," when he was possibly murdered for liberating the acharya's use of that term, is very dishonest and unsettling to say the least.
As for us not calling ourselves "ritviks" early on, we never said we should use that term for ourselves in the first place. Personally, I said we are going to be the "Prabhupadanugas" in the early 1980s, and Sulochana agreed to that term. Yes, we never said we are going to be "the ritviks" in any case, that is a red herring argument.
What should ALSO be discussed are the practical results of people like the GBC and Kailash et al. telling ISKCON's folks to reject Srila Prabhupada as their guru and to "find another guru." I hate to even mention the fate of what happened to many families who had their children follow that advice. The instructions of the GBC / Rocana / Kailash et al. program to hand off their children to "another" guru ended up having catastrophic results for many of the children in that situation. And they still think that was the right plan for these kids?
I was part of the process of helping collate testimony from many of the victims of their program and its resultant child abuse. And about 1,000 were collected and then another 1,000 were in the process of being collected when the courts limited the amount of complaintents to 500. I cannot tell you herein the MANY, MANY, MANY horror stories of a number of these children -- whose families followed the advice of people like the GBC / Rocana / Kailash process -- and they sent their children off to "another guru," its just too awful to relate in detail here. Yet I can say that Sulochana said that giving our children off to the process of having another guru is like "putting them into a wood chipper."
Yes, the term "ritvik" was not used much in the early 1980s, because it was used for example on the May 1977 tape which was not available to us. And as soon as Sulochana published that tape, he was killed. It was only after the tape and the conversations were published and discussed that the term came up in detail later on, after 1986. The 1977 conversations were not published until I think maybe 1990, and only limited edition of 1,000 copies. Sulochana was no longer here to read these conversations.
And that is why the term ritvik was not used much until AFTER these dates, because no one had these conversations available. In any case, you are correct, I never said I was a ritvik and / or our ISKCON kids would be called ritviks, this is off the topic. To say that we did not use the term ritvik, when Sulochana was the first person who liberated that term, and was possibly killed for uncovering the term, is very dishonest and not respectful to what happened to him for revealing that term.
You folks are the persons warping history, the 1977 conversations were not published until later, and we did not have them in 1986. As soon as the tape with the term "ritvik" was published, the person who published that tape was killed, and you are saying he never uncovered the term? The guy was evidently murdered for uncovering that term?
Eric Johansen: Pranams. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Yes, Jadurani devi dasi didn't deserve what happened. She mostly just wanted other devotees around. I agree with you that Kailasa Candra dasa is also sectarian towards you rittviks and the ISKCON institution - conflict, conflict, conflict. This is the state of affairs for virtually every devotee - such a Vaikuntha atmosphere!
It hard to exceed you in shear intensity though. Just look at all the abuse you can throw out at the mere mention of his name. He isn't as deceptive as you though. You still haven't admitted how much you agreed with him in 1985-6 or that you weren't even using the word "rittvik" back then. Where is the word in Sulocana prabhu's book even? You guys were so close and the booklet was cutting edge - why doesn't he talk about rittvik if it is everything you now say it is? You are warping history just like the GBC - all for your sectarian "victory." Its the same shamelessness. Kailasa doesn't do that at least.
Kailash Chandra das
Send your children off to "the other gurus" oh swell!
[PADA: Sulochana was the first person to bring out the May 28th ritvik appointment tape, where the word ritvik is used, and he was killed immediately after he did that. Sulochana was the first person to say these 11 GBC people had ONLY been appointed as ritviks and their guru claims are thus bogus, because that is what the tape says. How can we say Sulochana never used the term ritvik, when many of us think he was murdered for exposing the use of that term?
And you folks STILL to this day say -- Sulochana had nothing to do with releasing this information? OK you are re-writing history here, not only that, you are trying to change up the possible real reason he was assassinated. He was starting to chop up the root of this whole ISKCON GBC guru thing -- there was no appointment of gurus, only ritviks, so he had to be killed before the secret got out widely and discredited their whole regime.
Sulochana made the FIRST ever written TRANSCRIPT of the May 28th appointment of "ritviks" (priests not gurus) EVER MADE. By anyone! And to date, it stands as the MOST ACCURATE version since a few changed up ones appeared later on. Anyway, the GBC / Kailash have ALSO been saying we have been wrong to give our children Srila Prabhupada as their guru. How did that work out for these children who got "other gurus"? And they are still proud they got the children to worship "other gurus" with such horrendous consequences?
Torben Nielsen: I don´t even bother reading PADA's stuff as any source of truth. You simply cannot know what is right and what is wrong coming from his mouth. And it is too much labor to try and find out. I have never met anybody as slanderous. N E V E R.
PADA: Well yes, as soon as we said there is a child molesting program, people like the GBC / Torben ilk said that is all PADA's lies, slander and etc. We even have the Sanat / Mukunda / Prahlad / HKC Jaipur ilk saying the same thing, everything we promote is all lies. These victims all lied? And then they say the Radhanath regime is "innocent" and should not be made to pay their beloved precious stolen shekels in "court costs." Oh boo hoo, Radhanath's program of burying sexual predators in samadhis will lose a few shekels, and these guys are crying like lost puppies!
Which is why, even the karmis had to take these child molester lover programs to court to shut down their molesting regime, which they still defend to this day by saying the complaints of all the victims we forwarded are "all lies." Even the police are amazed at these people and they tell me, "Your opponents claim to be advanced devotees of God and saintly people, but they do not even know that mass child abuse is illegal, which all of us "non - saints" know is both morally wrong and illegal."
And! That is why we had to have the GBC / Rocana / Kailash "living guru's process" sued for $400,000,000 for mass child abuse. Good job, saying we are liars enabled the mass molesting, and murders of people like Sulochana and subsequently bankrupted ISKCON. Did I forget to mention, we were being banned, beaten and assassinated for complaining about the molesting process, which was also made into a huge public media debacle? Did I forget to mention that telescoping managers / ritviks with messiahs enabled and empowered the molesting regime to the point they could beat and murder us dissenters?
Sorry, we tell people not to worship these living gurus and that saved many folks from a lot of grief, as people thankfully tell me all the time. The GBC living gurus were sued for $400,000,000 for mass child abuse in Dallas, they pleaded "no contest." That means, they could not disagree with the conclusion that mass abuse has been taking place in their regime.
That means, making them gurus instead of managers made them "The Enforced Cult Ritualistic Worship of Sexual Predators As Messiahs Program," which is still considered as -- the "real explanation" (?) according to Kailash chandra, whose writings were being circulated by the GBC's guru people like Trivrikrama, and his writings are still being sent to me by their followers even now? Or what?
Sorry! That means we are not liars, the courts agree with the testimony of me and the victims. The GBC and Kailash ilk said these children cannot have Prabhupada as their guru, so these kids had "other gurus," and the absolutely disgusting and odious results are self evident. And Torben still says we are wrong to have saved people from this process ... did I forget to mention there was a growing suicide epidemic of the ex-child victims at the time the court case was filed?
And these people are proud they suppressed us, and the victims, and caused all this to happen? And yes, Sulochana saying they are only ritviks would have been a giant cause celebre thorn in their side. They had to have him assassinated, he was chopping away the very root of their whole process, he had to be stopped, and he was stopped by them.
What happened to the children who got the GBC / Kailash / Torben's et al.