Srutakirti Das Supports "living gurus"

P Dasi: Where did "henceforeward" come from? It's not in the above quote. Am I missing something?

Srutakirti: It comes from the famous letter written by Tamal Krsna Maharaja July 9, 1977
November.

[PADA: Wait a minute? The system in place at the time was: Srila Prabhupada's letters were dictated by Srila Prabhupada and then typed out by his secretary, then he signed the letter. Thus, this is not a letter "written by Tamal" it is a letter dictated by, and then signed by, Srila Prabhupada. 

Of course Srutakirti and others have directly or indirectly tried to say that Srila Prabhupada appointed conditioned souls as his successors, to insult and attack Srila Prabhupada's integrity, and to degrade ISKCON into bogus guru's cults. And so they say "there is no proof" that we should not be worshiping these bogus GBC gurus. And thus these folks all say this letter (which proves he did not appoint successors) is not relevant. Its their way of pushing Srila Prabhupada off the Vyasa seat and enabling, empowering, and emplacing their debauchee pals onto the Vyasa seat. Which is exactly what happens under their scheme of things.

Tamal Krishna also said in December of 1980 in Topanga, that there is NO guru appointment given by Srila Prabhupada, no gurus were ever authorized for ISKCON, its a myth. He said this guru appointment is a "big lie" and is also causing the devastation of ISKCON. He also said -- "you cannot show me anything on tape or in writing where these gurus were appointed." And that is a fact, there is no documentation showing that any gurus were appointed in ISKCON. Its not only the Jul 9th letter that is being discussed, there is no document anywhere where anyone was appointed as a guru successor.

Yet since 1978 folks like Srutakirti have assisted the bogus gurus and their claim that they are authorized to be worshiped as "gurus in the parampara". Where does this authorization take place? These people never explain who factually "authorized" the current crop of ISKCON's GBC gurus? So its pretty clear, the people who authorized this bogus guru program are the GBC and the compliant God brothers who supported and acquiesced with it, like Srutakirti et al.

The GBC also went immediately to Sridhara Maharaja in March of 1978, and he rubber stamped and authorized the 11 GBC gurus as well, but later the GBC said they were not even authorized to visit Sridhara Maharaja to make him their "shiksha advisor." There was no authority for the 11 to be gurus, no authority to make Sridhara Maharaja the advisor and so on.

Since Tamal says the "guru appointment tape" is a lie and a myth, how can Srutakirti and others still claim there is an authorization for the GBC's gurus? The July 9th letter (shown below) also does not appoint gurus. Srila Prabhupada says a person needs the order from his guru to become a guru, where is the order for one (or any) of the GBC's to become gurus?]

Sruta Kirti

Srila Prabhupada: This is blind FOLLOWING,without any knowledge:

*** Srila Prabhupada: " Blind following means: "Oh, there is a SWAMI. So many THOUSANDS of PEOPLE are FOLLOWING. let me become his disciple." This is called blind following. You do not know what is that swami, whether he is a SWAMI or a RASCAL. You do not know. But because everyone is going, "Oh, let me become -- his disciple -- this is blind FOLLOWING, WITHOUT any knowledge, BLIND FOLLOWING......" You must select a SPIRITUAL MASTER where you can bow down your head, "Yes," SUBMISSIVE. Therefore you HAVE TO SEE......"One who has accepted a BONA FIDE spiritual master, he is in the KNOWLEDGE. Others are FOOLS.

-- This is vedic version EVERYWHERE" -- Bhagavad-gita 4.34-39—Los Angeles, January 12,

P Dasi: oh ok. I didn't understand prabhu's comment because I'm not familiar with the letter.

[PADA: Pretty amazing, there are still people who have never even heard about Srila Prabhupada's documents. This means -- we have collectively failed to get this information out the way it should have been. Then again, people associated with corporate ISKCON are shielding folks from seeing any of this, that is another problem. 

Then again, we have all sorts of opponents who are saying, we need to shut down PADA! Well yes, because we were the first to promote and expose many of Srila Prabhupada's qiotes and documents in the early 1980s to counter the GBC's gurus. And we were gathering these quotes and documents along with Sulochana das and others in the mid-1980s. 

And we were first to publish these quotes and documents on the Web -- as soon as there was Windows 3.0 and a web etc. So that means, there are many people who wanted to suppress us, to suppress these quotes and documents. And the result of their suppressing our program is -- that they created, or at least they aided and abetted by default, a bogus gurus program.]

Ray -- Michael Madhusudan Blumert (Madhusudan)..... Srila Prabhupada made many adjustments to his instructions over the time he spent with us. If you look at the date of this statement made by Srila Prabhupada you will see it was in 1967, very early on. We always have to take Srila Prabhupada's most recent statements and instructions on any matter. The following conversation took place in April of 1977 just months before Srila Prabhupada's departure;

Prabhupada: No, you become guru, but you must be qualified first of all. Then you become.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, that kind of complaint was there.

Prabhupada: Did you know that?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I heard that, yeah.

Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

Tamala Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible...

Prabhupada: Hm.

Tamala Kṛṣṇa: ...but not now.

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

Tamala Kṛṣṇa: The process of purification must be there.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...

Tamala Kṛṣṇa: Not rubber stamp.

Prabhupada: Then you'll not be effective.

Room Conversation -- April 22, 1977, Bombay

If you can produce some documented evidence that Srila Prabhupada did in fact say; " "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." to some individual or group of individuals I would be very much interested to see that.....Hare Krishna...

Bhakta D -- P Dasi..here is the letter that Srila Prabhupada had distributed to all His Temples and GBC men... this was in July of 1977 just a few months before His departure....

Letter to: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents

Vrindaban 9 July, 1977

To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents

Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "ritvik - representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:

His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari

In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple.

After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book.

Hoping this finds you all well.
Your servant,
Approved:Tamala Krsna Gosvami
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Secretary to Srila Prabhupada....
Signed by the Founding Acaraya A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada...

B Acbsp -
Bob: Is Kṛṣṇa attractive to rascals?
Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes! He was the greatest rascal also.
Bob: How is that?
Srila Prabhupada: [laughing] Because He was always teasing the gopis.

Gopati Krsna Das Jps See now whatever Srila Prabhupada says should be understood in the context of his books not that books are understood on the basis of the letter. Prabhupada cleverly, clearly, brilliantly, establishes the siddhanta under the guidance of Srila Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada.

[PADA: The GBC says that acharyas are constantly falling into illicit sex and other deviations, where is this stated in the shastra?]

And Srila Prabhupada never deviated from guru sadhu shastra. Maybe in certain places Srila Prabhupada compromised on certain practices.., like ladies were being authorized by HDG to do pooja in temples....but HDG never compromised on the principles. This rithvik system where acharya initiates even after his disappearance is not been mentioned by sastra neither was authorized by any previous acharyas .......the henceforward mentioned here on the famous 1977 letter means till the disappearance of HDG.... the rithvik system shows inability of a parampara to produce a guru. I don't think Lord Chaitanya`s line is incapable to continue his and his followers legacy.

In the same video Srila B.V puri maharaj confirms that after the disappearance of the spiritual master the disciples becomes guru.... it is normal in any spiritual institution when the acharya is sick he appoints his senior disciples to initiates on his behalf but after the disappearance of the spiritual master the disciple becomes spiritual master. Rithvik followers need to understand guru tatva properly any way in gaudiya tradition siksha guru more important then diksha.

[PADA: The problem is that the "tradition" established by the GBC post-1977 is that gurus are most of the time fallen debauchees. Most of the GBC's gurus have fallen and failed. So the GBC's and folks like JPS are establishing that the parampara is fallen, failing, corrupt and debauched.]

BC: "In the spiritual field nobody can become a bona fide spiritual master by dissatisfying his spiritual master."

Gopati Krsna Das Jps biren chauhanji who dissatisfied who????

[PADA: Umm, she is satisfied that the GBC has established the worship of illicit sex acharyas? Even dogs do not worship illicit sex?] 

Padmagarbha Das -- Srutakirti I would very much appreciate if you could explain your motive / intent for posting this particular quote from his divine Grace. Based on practically all the "comments" so far, most "prabhus" are taking this quote as a validation of the current ISKCON guru tattva position and and as an opportunity to condemn the "ritviks".

By you choosing to post this particular letter along with your choice of words in your "comment" [which in my humble opinion are quite offensive to Srila Prabhupada, as this letter was signed by His Divine Grace, and therefore it obviously was written at Srila Prabhupada's request] that the word 'henceforward' "came from the famous letter written by Tamal".

Especially you, Srutakirti, should know that many, if not most of Srila Prabhupada's letters were written by his secretary! I am therefore sadly led to belief that you unfortunately also approve of the present ISKCON "guru system". The question that was asked by Satsvarupa, and Srila Prabhuda's most clear answer on May 28 [something like, "We have been wondering, how are first and second initiations going to continue, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US?"

SP, " I shall appoint some of you as officiating Acarya's".

Tamal, "Do you mean RITVIK acaryas?",

SP, "RITVIK YES!" ]

This conversation alone should leave NO doubt in any intelligent and unmotivated disciple, as to His Divine Grace's desires regarding the matters of initiations in ISKCON after his "departure". And of course, in the Nectar of Devotion Srila Prabhupada makes it MOST clear that a spiritual master [a diksa guru] who was properly authorized by the previous Acarya, can NEVER fall down.

While one who becomes a spiritual master "on his own initiative" he CAN fall down Well, most of the "original eleven" has fallen down, or they supported foolish other "acharyas" who were falling down, and in total over forty of ISKCON's diksa gurus so far have fallen down, totally embarrassing our Sampradaya. If that is not most clear PROOF that NONE of ISKCON's gurus are "authorized" , then I don't know what is!

Many years ago in Laguna Beach, Calfornia a visiting Sannyasi referred to one particular local grhasta couple as being a perfect example of where the wife is being more intelligent than the husband. Well, Srutakirti, if my "assumption", based on your post, that you accept/endorse the present ISKCON guru tattva position is correct, then I would have to make the same observation in regards to your previous marriage to your late and most wonderful wife, Ameghala.

As she had personally told me in Sandy Ridge, North Carolina, that she didn't think that ANY of ISKCON's gurus where either "authorized" or "qualified', and that if she had any say in it, NONE of her children would EVER be allowed to take initiation from ANY of ISKCON's gurus.

AP: "Our present system has institutionalized a process of senior devotees voting or offering no-objection to prospective gurus. But we do not find that this institutionalized blessing seeking process is mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra as the way that one is authorized to become a guru.” (Balancing the roles of the GBC and the disciple In Guru selection, Shastric Advisory Council)

Srutakirti: Padmagarbha prabhu, I have been posting a quote from Srila Prabhupada's letters for the last four years. My motive / intent is that I get regular requests to continue to do it because it inspires many. I have considered stopping many times over the years because of the offensive nature of some of the comments. I do not agree with the Rittvik philosophy but have no interest to try and convince others that do.

[PADA: Right, Sruta Kirti's wife did not support the GBC gurus, she has more brains than he does. And yet Srutakirti has promoted the GBC gurus program, and we all know what their idea is, that we can worship illicit sex and this is going to take us back to Godhead, when all it does is take us back to Doghead.] 

It is also interesting to some that Nanda Kumar prabhu ( Craig Joseph), HariSauri prabhu ( Denis Harrison) and I, who were personally serving Srila Prabhupada for half of his Iskcon lila see the quote in the above letter to be a clear description of how the Disciplic succession is to continue.

[PADA: Nanda Kumar was in the room when the GBC were laughing as Srila Prabhupada was departing, he said he wanted to kill them, and he either had to kill them or leave. So he left. Does this sound like an endorsement of them? Hari Sauri has been almost the biggest promoter of homosexual gurus ever, Sulochana called Hari Sauri "the biggest brown noser in the homosexual's guru program." 

Of course now Dayalu Nita's HKC Jaipur folks are ALL promoting Hari Sauri's writings as their authority, which would make them brown nosers of the brown nosers of the homosexual acharyas. Right, the people who created bogus gurus, resulting in mass molesting and murder are our "spiritual authority." OK and the result of these people supporting all this program has been, banning, beating, molesting and murders, and no small amount of illicit sex being worshiped "as good as God." 

Sulochana said -- Hari Sauri's writings against us are designed to get us killed, and we have a set of the Los Angeles coroner's photos, showing Sulochana's dead body, Sulochana was right, they were writing against us to get us killed. And this is Srutakirti's authority, the people whose writings gets us killed?

Nanda Kumar at least left, he knew that staying on was creating the offense of supporting false acharyas. Its amazing to us that after all the banning, beating, molesting and murders are now self evident, there is anyone who would still support this program. Yep, "its clear," the disciplic succession would continue, by worship of illicit sex?]

Rathangapani: This quote clearly states that ONLY bona fide devotees can become gurus. I see nothing wrong with it. Srila Prabhupada clearly wanted some of his disciples to become gurus in his absence. Surly there are some good bona fide devotees out there.

RB: When you analyze ISKCON's current Guru system practically speaking they are already following Srila Prabhupada's Ritvik order. With the exception of who receives the Guru dakshine {disciples money and donations.} The following chart demonstrates that.

[PADA: The GBC gurus have had many hand maidens over the years, and unfortunately these servants and help mates of the GBC gurus will share in their karma, and their karma is, they are destined for the most obnoxious regions of the universe. ys pd]