Sunday, September 8, 2013

Rocana das (Sampradaya Sun) argues with -- himself? 09/08/13

(From Rocana das / Sampradya Sun) Dear George prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I know we have another incoming article or email from you, while I’ll get to shortly. We’re buried in incoming right now. Meanwhile, on this one…

On, Yasodanandana, we can only speculate about what devotees will or will not believe, and from whom. From my experience, Krishnakant is the man who, far more than Yasoda, has had vastly more influence on people to adopt Rtvik-vada.

[PADA: Except that Krishna Kanta was reading all of mine and Yasodananda's articles in the 1980s "Vedic Village Review." And he was on the phone asking us questions on these matters, way before he wrote anything, and he used all the quotes we used in his own papers later on.]

RD: Yasoda has written very little on the topic, and when he does, he won’t put his on name to it. He hides behind the skirt of the ‘Prabhupadanugas’ identity. 

[PADA: Yasodananda has wrote papers and signed them, and he has helped contribute to many other papers. He has challenged Rocana to a debate maybe ten years ago, and Rocana could not even answer the first question, "What arrangement was made for ISKCON post 1977?" Rocana cannot even answer one of our questions, never mind others.] 

RD: Krishnakant put himself out in a big way, sent preachers all over the planet preaching his message, not Yasoda’s message – and there is a significant difference between the two. 

[PADA: Except that when we came out with the poison issue, most of Krishna Kanta's preachers quit working with him and started working with us, including the main preacher Kamsahanta. Bangalore eventually jettisoned Krishna Kanta for the same reasons, he was too compromised with the GBC.]

RD: From what I can see, it is the Krishnakant version, not the Yasodanandana version, that the great majority of Rtviks adhere to. Given all that, wiring Yasodanandana up into his puppet form so I can get his head to nod ‘yes’ doesn’t much interest me.

[PADA: However, Rocana has never answered the question not only from Yasodananda, but many others including Praghosha dasa, "What was the actual system Srila Prabhupada ordered"?] 

RD: I agree that we have every reason to fear the contagious spread of Rtvik-vada. 

[PADA: So worship of Srila Prabhupada is apa-siddhanta, that is what the GBC says? That is what the Gaudiya Matha says? That is what Bhakta das says? That is what Bhakta's new disciples the Prahlad team are also promoting by their promoting Bhakta das? If worship of Srila Prabhupada is apa-siddanta, then what was ordered instead? And who should be worshiped now instead etc.? Rocana never explains?] 

RD: Asiddhanta has plagued the sampradaya through each one of its branches over time. 

[PADA: Except, Srila Prabhupada says that when the Gaudiya Matha stopped the worship of the acharya, as Rocana is promoting with his living gurus, that is what is apa-siddhanta.]

RD: It is the nature of the material world. So I don’t want to overly dramatize the important for us, here and now, as being anything more than it is. We are not special. We are suffering in this Kali Yuga prisonhouse just like all the conditioned souls who went before us, even in this sampradaya…. many of whom were perhaps us, in different bodies.

[PADA: Well yes, Rocana's living guru idea is simply a re-incarnation of the Gaudiya Matha, how did you guess, Bhakta das also promotes them.]

RD: I agree that Madhu Pandit and ISKCON could just as easily marry themselves together one day, as not. Both do whatever is politically expedient. They are equally corrupt. Spoiled fruit from the same rotten tree.

[PADA: OK so now Rocana says his living guru tree produces bad fruits? So, why is he promoting it? And why is Madhu Pandi't idea or worship of Srila Prabhupada a "rotten fruit"?]

RD: Yes, Madhu Pandit would only debate Rtvik if it were politically helpful to him. But that is a possible scenario… Given the slew of trouble he’s gotten himself into, that day could possibly come. 

[PADA: Madhua Pandit is only in trouble because Rocana's living gurus are spending $15,000,000 suing him? Rocana caused the trouble for Madhu Pandit by helping create and endorse these bogus living gurus.] 

RD: There’s a good chance he’s about to lose his seat of power at Bangalore. He’ll then have to start over, and he may very well do so by institutionalizing Rtvik all over the planet, grabbing up the disenfranchised from every corner. If that happens, there’s probably no stopping it. We’ll only be able to see what Krsna’s arrangements are, and do what we can.

If Madhu Pandit does go worldwide, you can be sure that he’ll exploit the Indians, just like ISKCON did. He and his associates are very bigoted and rascist against the white-bodied devotees. We have ample proof of that. Look at their new California scene…. all Indians, from what I’ve seen.

[PADA: OK except -- the Westerners are not joining the Krishna religion in the West in big numbers anywhere, because the GBC gurus are famous for being frauds. At least there is some program here in Sunnyvale? Some Western devotees go there, and they are always welcomed. Where is Rocana's big preaching to the Westerners program? At least we have some Westerners participating?]  

RD: Where is Yasodanandana, the king of the West Coast Rtviks? From the website photos, it doesn’t appear that he even got an invitation to the opening festivities. Although Madhu Pandit Yasoda and Damaghosa audience in Bangalore, which they sucked as much notoriety as possible out of, I don’t believe Madhu Pandit will ever form more than a superficial alliance with these ‘mellecha white boys’. It’s beneath him.

[PADA: Rocana's living gurus are almost exclusively cultivating the Indians? Where is anyone making Western devotees in the West? Is Rocana making any Western devotees, anywhere? The latest news from Vancouver is that the ritviks program is doing very well there, while Rocana has no visible program, at all?]

RD: So all that said, I continue to think that the only thing we can really do is take our fundamental argument to the individuals, to the grassroots level. 

[PADA: The grass roots are more and more worshiping Srila Prabhupada because for starters, Rocana cannot even identify his live guru? We need to at least name our guru to start any program, and Rocana never names his living guru, ever.]

RD: Push them to admit that there is no evidentiary or philosophical basis for Rtvik-vada. Show them that the Sampradaya Acarya position is the natural alternative to Rtvik-ism and corrupt ISKCON, and rely on
Supersoul to take it from there.

[PADA: OK except, we were the first person to use to title "sampradaya acharya" in our early 1980s papers like, "Our Living Guru." We said people need to worship the Sampradaya Acharya, and now Rocana has hi-jacked our nomenclature. Anyway, Rocana says that our idea of worship of the samrapadaya acharya is bogus ritviks, then right after that -- he says, hold on, I am also a ritvik, lets join the ritviks and worship the sampradaya acharya? Rocana is fighting -- himself?]  

RD: In the meantime, we’re going to fight like there’s no tomorrow, using the scant resources we have in hand, and our own limited intelligence and abilities. But, fight for the sake of fighting. 

[PADA: Rocana is fighting with his own shadow, he says we needs to defeat the people who are promoting the sampradaya acharya, and that is -- himself?]

RD: We won’t spend our time,  however, trying to engage men like Yasodanandana, or Puranjana, in debate. 

[PADA: Well our own first question was, "Who is your living guru," and Rocana has been baffled ever since.]

RD: As I recall, not so long ago you weren’t sure about Puranjana, didn’t realize what a liar and a crazy man he was. (Or maybe I’m confusing you with someone else…) At any rate, make no mistake, Puranajana is just that – an absolute lunatic, a pathological liar, and a fraud. And you know who talks to him, at length, almost daily by phone, consulting with him, coming up with slanderous arguments together, jacking around and joking about how to denigrate their enemies? 

[PADA: Rocana says we are liars, except, we are simply quoting the many victims of ISKCON? Their stories are not lies? We also used the term sampradaya acharya decades before he did? If this is a lie, why is he repeating it? 

This is the same problem we have with the Prahlad people, Puranjan bought out the poison issue, therefore it is big lie because it was presented by a liar. OK that means they have been with the GBC gurus on the issue. Then they say no, actually they are with us on the issue, Puranjan is not a liar, he is 100 percent correct and we are 100 percent using the tapes he brought out, and 100 percent using the whispers he first published before anyone else. 

Then they say no, we are now promoting Radhanath and Bhakta das therefore, the poison issue is a lie, and the GBC are 100 percent correct, and the tape and the whispers are a big lie. Every day they have a new position? They are like Rocana, arguing with -- themselves. They are spinning in circles, at least our position is consistent.]  

RD: Yasodanandana. For the last 20 years, those two have been thick as thieves. I used to tell myself that
somehow or other, Yasoda associated closely with Puranjana just to be kind, but he managed to keep his own intelligence and ethics intact. I no longer believe that. I think they have a twisted, co-dependent
relationship of the worst kind. So I’m not interested in engaging in a mock battle with either those two. It is a complete waste of time.

[PADA: Because you could not answer his first question, nor ours.]

RD: I very much appreciate your interest in helping on this front, prabhu. And I’d like to offer some advice. Rather than playing devil’s advocate, posting questions that look like something the Rtviks would come up with – and being a good resemblance, thanks to the lack of logic– I suggest that you instead present yourself straight-on. Begin writing with all your heart and soul. 

Write as George, the non-Rtvik. Use your realization and intelligence to rebut Rtvik-vada, to defeat the attraction towards Ritvik-ism in any way that you see fit. You often give me advice about my approach. Well, here’s my advice: fashion your own approach. Let us work together, by all means, but let us employ whatever tactics and realizations fit us best. 

If you’re convinced Rtvik is wrong, then argue against it as effectively as you can muster. And often… not quarterly, not monthly, but weekly. If you think the ‘no living guru needed’ hybrid has merit, then argue that and defend it. (I’ll challenge you as time permits.) For my part, I’m not yet ready to begin that frontal assault. It is next in line, after The Final Order is defeated, as best we can do that.

That’s all I know for now, prabhu.
Hoping this finds you well,

Your servant,
Rocana dasa 

[PADA: Well there you have it, Rocana wants to fight to prove that his idea of worship of the sampradaya acharya, ... is bogus. What? ys pd] 

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