Sunday, December 16, 2018

Discussion of "Appointment Tape" with Gauridasa Pandit prabhu

Gauridasa Pandit: Newsflash! A major breakthrough! Srila Prabhupada is the Guru for all of us who accept him and follow him. Tamal Krsna Maharaja tells the truth on initiations on a video. Admits that I was there during these talks. Here’s my report on what I heard: 'On My Behalf.'

Tamal Krishna Goswami admits that they are only ritviks. Watch the video to know the truth. I feel vindicated to hear this video after all these decades of being called a liar and mistreated by many of the leaders and devotees in general who have been misled by the leaders. All glories to our Srila Prabhupada!

DD: Justice came slowly but surely.

BS: You were there. But it still doesn't answer the Ritvik question.

Guridasa Pandita: It’s a short clip where TKG admits that I was there when Srila Prabhupada appointed Ritvik Representatives to initiate on his behalf after his departure.

PP: Except that short does not say that second part. He admits you were there.

Gauridasa Pandita: A Realization and Plea From A Fallen ISKCON Guru. This is the letter Hansadutta wrote to Kirtanananda to admit they had only been appointed as ritviks.

Dear Kirtanananda Maharaj

Please accept my humble obeisances.

I thought now is the time to remind you of what you said to me upon meeting you at New Vrindaban after my fall from Guru and Sannyas. Seeing my condition, and anticipating the ensuing chaos and confusion amongst the new disciples, you said, "This is why I suggested so strongly that ISKCON should adopt the RITTVIK process of initiation for the new Gurus!!" It has been a long time since then, but after all is said and done, I have personally realized the truth of this statement. Rittvik representatives is all that PRABHUPADA ever sanctioned us to be -not ACHARYAS or GURUS.

After years of anguish and confusion over this issue, I have by the mercy of Prabhupada, come to take shelter in his instruction: "Act as Rittvik of the Acharya." I think it is time for me to repay the debt I owe you for giving me shelter when I was so broken and lost in my spiritual life.

Hansadutta dasa —Singapore, 2. October 1993

BH: It was a sad drama with some very sinister actors like Keith Ham and many of the other so called leaders at that time

PP: Gauridasa Pandita, With Kirtananda it was he who Yasodananda Swami and Pradumya and maybe Gurukripa, not sure but they were the three main players of influences trying to divert these men from their folly. Anyway they approached him as being the most favourable out of all 11 and GBCs to try to get them all to stop what they were implementing .thus why maybe he said that to Hamsadutta and the others in the beginning 78. What have people been doing to you? Denying you were at the conversation with Tamal and Prabhupada?

Gauridasa Pandita:
 Gauridasa Pandita Yes and other things I’d rather not talk about. But if you’re a ritvik advocate you’ll find out what happens and it ain’t pretty.

PP: I believed in ritvik at the beginning as it was the only way I could see for them to move forward. I don't believe in it now as a authorized process, but still believe that those who adopt Prabhupada first and foremost and his original books are in a way better position than those who don't.

PADA: But what is the authorized process then, they cannot say? Worship of the acharya is "not found in shastra," but what is found there?

Jayamadhava Das: PP --Good Points. Srila Prabhupada said his disciples were going to be REGULAR GURU --- Not His Divine Grace. So in 1978 the GBC Blew IT Totally.

PADA: There is no instruction on how someone is not an actual guru but is a regular guru. If Srila Prabhupada was going to make a separate class of gurus called the "regular gurus," and these gurus were going to be voted in, voted out, censured, suspended, excommunicated and in sum -- monitored by the GBC, he would have explained that process in detail.

JR: What are you saying, the gross fall down regular gurus are authorized acharya representatives of Lord Chaitanya? How is that?

Jayamadhava Das: Srila Prabhupada said You become - 'regular guru' Im just repeating exactly what-HDG Srila Prabhupada said, Nothing ELSE......

PADA: You become a guru when he orders, he does not order anyone?

JR: Jayamadhava Das A thing is judged by the result. Your result is a failure.

PP: Jayamadhava Das what do you think he meant? From listening it would seem he said they become regular guru after he leaves.

Swarup Hebel: Gauridasa Pandita Prabhu -- In all due respect, one time you quoted Prabhupada as saying he wanted the ritvik system to continue after he "left the planet." Now I'm hearing that he was heard to say "after my departure." Rather than sort through all of the writing -- most of which I have read before -- could you point out exactly -- exactly -- where he says either "after my departure" or "after I leave the planet?" 

No tapes nor letters ever contained those words that I am aware of. This is a very important point so please indulge my curiosity. If we all had proof positive that's what he said then there never would have been a controversy. It would have been a slam dunk despite the arguments that it was never done in our sampradaya that a guru continued giving diksa after his departure and neither was it the idea Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had. He did not appoint nor select anyone to become next acarya but rather asked his disciples to work cooperatively and who is effulgent would come out from among them. 

Many of the ritvik proponents conclude that if one isn't convinced that it was actually Prabhupada's intention to continue giving diksa (via ritvik representatives) after his departure that means automatically they accepted the zonal acaryas and all that came after. Anyway -- please save me some time and eyesight and highlight where and when those words were spoken directly by His Divine Grace and who was present when they were spoken. Thank you very much.

Gauridasa Pandita: Srila Prabhupada said he would appoint ‘Officiating Acharya’s’ to initiate devotees after his departure on May 28th 1977. I also heard him say he would appoint ritvik representatives to initiate devotees after he left the planet on July 5th 1977. It is also stated in the July 9th 1977 Letter.

This information is in my report. Now after all these decades this video of TKG surfaces confirming what I have been saying I heard, all along. It’s a wonderful day and our movements future is brighter. AGTSP! Btw a ritvik is an honorable position in the Vedic System that Srila Prabhupada so wisely used. Those who want to accept their own disciples should do so in their own temples.

Gauridasa Pandita 'On My Behalf'

On My Behalf - Srila Prabhupada's Initiation System for ISKCON


Swarup Hebel: Please spare me the time spent and just highlight the part in the letter where he says "after my departure" and / or "after I leave the planet." PLEASE. You can do that for these tired eyes. Or if he said it on tape --- tell me at what point I can fast forward to so I can hear him speak these words myself.

Purujit Das: What gauridas Gauridasa Pandita Prabhu says in his testimony perfectly matches Srila Prabhupada's statements in his books.

KD Dasi: Srila Prabhupada replied to Satsvarupa Maharaja's question ... in which he asks ... about Initiations especially after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance .... and he says there will be ritviks.

Purujit Das: Do we need a successor to Prabhupada? No. Enough. Do we need many qualified siksa gurus? Absolutely!

Swarup Hebel: Oy gevalt.

KD Dasi: Satsvarupa: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted."

Prabhupada: "Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas."

Tamala Krsna: "Is that called ritvik-acharya?"

Prabhupada: "Ritvik yes."

Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…

Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.

Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru haia. Be actually guru, but by my order.

May 28th 1977 conversation.

Obviously in the Pyramid Confessions that part was omitted because the making of multiple guru systems was the plan!!!!! I also don't understand why Srila Prabhupada's instructions need to be determined by court... If we study everything in perspective it is obvious that Srila Prabhupada instituted the ritvik system....

PP: Gauridasa Pandita, He's simply question the wording "left the planet." - and needs to hear you say it was merely your understanding of what he said. Not anything else, just the wording on that is what I understand gets to him. So clear it up so he can move forward. :)

KD Dasi: Particularly at a time when you are no longer with us - is also debatable as Srila Prabhupada is always with us in vani and in arca vigraha.

Swarup Hebel: Swarup Hebel Just as an aside -- I left ISKCON in 1979 because I saw right off the bat that what was happening was completely ridiculous. I have been an objective observer to all that has unfolded within the institution since that year and in fact, between 1985 and 2002 I was too busy struggling with drug addiction to notice much of anything. 

It wasn't until 2005 that I began using the Internet and learned of what had been going on all those years and I was shocked. Then came facebook and people began telling their stories (many of which were told on my facebook page) and again -- I was so disheartened at what had been going on. I'd love for ISKCON to get back on track so whatever proof positive, slam dunk evidence that can be provided would thrill me to the bone.

Gauridasa Pandita: This clip from TKG is slam dunk. It must be from the Pyramid Confession talks in 1980. Lots of pertinent stuff on that recording!

Swarup Hebel:
Well, maybe when you get some time you can send me a private message showing me exactly where on the tape or where in the letter those words appear. In the meantime -- I've got places to go and people to meet (i.e.I'm exhausted and I'm going to sleep).

KD Dasi: Satsvarupa: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted."

Prabhupada: "Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas."

Tamala Krsna: "Is that called ritvik-acharya?"

Prabhupada: "Ritvik yes."

Swarup Hebel: Satsvarupa asked a two part question and Prabhupada answered it in two parts. That exchange would not stand up in a court of law as conclusive evidence. Don't shoot the messenger please. I'm just pointing out that it could be interpreted either way and has been by many upstanding individuals, thus the ongoing controversy. I mean somebody has to point these things out and I don't mind the flak which I get whenever I try to see both sides.

KD Dasi: Swarup Hebel I think this video clip mainly proves that Gauridasa Pandita prabhu was eye witness to the conversation that took place and the only remaining witness. This will or will not stand up in court, its not important .... understanding and realising is ...

BS: Swarup Hebel asks the perfect question, and interestingly Gauridasa Pandita can't answer it as nowhere did Srila Prabhupada say that.

BH: Interesting online revelations without a doubt ... common sense even reveals the flaws

Swarup Hebel:
I've clashed with Rocana a few times but I do respect his scholarly and mature observations as presented here:

PADA: Its amazing to me that anyone needed to see a court approved "legally written order" that they have to promote their guru -- either while he was physically present or not. Yep, suppose everyday Krishna has to write a big legal edict and post it all around town, "All of you Gopis and Gopas have to worship Me, its the legally written law." Why? You mean, if its "not in legal writing" they will stop their worship? No, a person who loves their guru and loves Krishna will serve and promote them without any legally written edict, because they love their guru and Krishna. 

Suppose a wife has to write a legal letter, my dear husband you have to love me, its your legal duty to do so? Well, if the husband needs a legally written document ordering him to love the wife, there was no love there in the first place. 

We do not need a legally written document stating that we have to love anyone, and / or to love or promote our guru. And if we do need a legal court approved document telling us to love someone, or to promote the guru, there is no love there anyway. Love is a spontaneous desire, its not a legal document. Neither the Christians need a legal written document from Jesus, they worship Jesus because he is their guru, they promote him because they love him, no legal document is required. ys pd

Swarup Hebel: I was wondering when you'd show up, Mr. PADA. Here we go --- accusing those who aren't fully convinced that Prabhupada wanted to continue accepting diksa disciples after his departure as not "promoting' their guru. When you walk in the room it's time for logical, rational, mature people to walk out. Now go back to your blog and scream about the heroin addict who hates Prabhupada as you've done before so eloquently.

[PADA: You and Jayatirtha, Jagat Guru swami, Srutasrava dasa, Sudhir Krsna swami, Tripurari swami etc. all ran off to Sridhara Maharaja, founder father of the Gaudiya Matha's bi-sexual / illicit sex acharya's process in 1936. This program has a track record of being a violent goonda's process which banned, beat, sued and assassinated dissenters. And then the Sridhara Maharaja program supported the same deviations all over again, i.e. by his support of the post-1978 GBC's gurus. This was again the same identical program, which also bans, beats, molests, sues and assassinates Vaishnavas. 

And this is what you folks call rational and mature behavior? 

The followers of the post-1936 Sridhara Maharaja endorsed false guru's process were beating people over the head with bricks and cracking their skulls, pushing people's faces into dog stools, and killing them. And that is a "mature and sane" manner of dealing with Vaishnavas?  

Even animals are not indulging in worship of illicit sex with men, women and children as their acharyas, like your Sridhara Maharaja program has been supporting? Sulochana said you folks are not advanced enough to worship a dog, because a dog does not ban, beat, molest, sue and kill Vaishnavas. So first of all, you folks need to start at the beginning, worship a nice dog. 

And then, after you are not supporting violent bogus guru cults that kills the Vaishnavas, we can talk about mature behavior from there. As for taking heroin, ok when the guru leaves his body we have a duty to make sure fools and debauchees are not sitting in our guru's seat, while they orchestrate banning, beating, molesting, suing and killing Vaishnavas. That is our priority number one, and not smoking pot, drinking beer, watching football, and taking heroin etc.] 

PP: PADA screams about everyone in his blog.

PADA: Well yes, for example we said there is a child molesting problem, and people said we are offenders who are screaming etc. And then we had to help hundreds (or was it thousands?) of victims with a $400,000,000 lawsuit. Rather amazing, some of the victims said I was being WAY to lenient and soft. The victims think I was not screaming loud enough. It all depends on whose shoes a person is in, the victims think I was too soft, that is their perspective and I sympathize with the victims. ys pd

JR: Wow, sympathy for the victims, good idea. PADA / Puranjana Dasa is the greatest devotee because he knows and is honest to relate the history. The history is not good. This is also why the ISKCON movement has become discredited, bankrupted and obscure. People are afraid of your creepy cult. If not not really afraid, they disrespect you. Puranjana preaches to you not to the Karmis this is his special chosen work. He tries sincerely. You will never get it.
Too bad.

PADA: As for Swarupa Hebel's legal documents argument, love is not a legal written edict? No one had to show me any legal written document that Srila Prabhupada -- has been the guru; is the guru now; and will be the guru of ISKCON ad infinitum, until and unless Krishna manifests another process. If we need a legal written letter to indicate who to love, who to promote as guru, there was no love there? I believed Srila Prabhupada would be the guru of ISKCON when I first joined, I never needed a "legal written document" at any time to "prove" to me that he would be that person. 

I tell folks Srila Prabhupada will be their guru, I never needed any "legal letter" to tell them that? I gave them Srila Prabhupada as their guru because that is how we love our fellow man, our children etc. and that is how we love Srila Prabhupada. These people never asked me for a "legal written document" to prove that Srila Prabhupada is their guru either, because they love him. If we are not convinced he is the guru, then who is? 

And do we have to tell you about all the problems that our society has had when people were told that Srila Prabhupada is not going to be their guru? And this is also the first argument we had with Jayatirtha, we said the bhogha, the disciples, the money, and everything else, should be offered to Srila Prabhupada, because, he is the guru. 

Jayatirtha said no, that is not the order, I am the guru and they are my disciples, its my money, and it ALL belongs to me. How has that worked out? Love is also not a mature rational thing, its a sentiment of the heart, and we either have it or we don't. 

As for Swarupa's pal Rocana, he was a leader of the 50 man committee in 1986 of "guru reform." Of course, this begs the question, what kind of gurus need to be reformed for deviations? Rocana has never answered that since 1986. Srila Prabhupada says we do not reform the deviating guru, we do not allow people who are deviating to claim to be gurus. There is no such thing as a deviating guru who needs reform, this is an oxymoron. Swarupa Hebel thinks God's successors are deviants who need to be reformed? ys pd

JR: 40 years is a long time. ISKCON is a little bit too late to try and sort out their problem. The Vaisnava Calendar lists almost every ISKCON devotee as Guru. I never heard of most of these people. Tamala Krishna Maharaja was the first ISKCON Guru to get disciplined. Chediraja Prabhu told me in 1979 that Maharaja was deviating proclaiming himself the only Pure Devotee. When Maharaja gave Bhagavatam class he closed the book after the verse translation He skipped Srila Prabhupada purport because he was The Acarya. By 1982 The Movement was disintegrated significantly. Yes the New Guru replacements had a lot of disciples but at New York Rathyatra I noticed that many of The Lords devotees were absent, they did not attend.

I am sure they led significant important lives but the cost to the world is huge because these were the devotees tasked with preaching. A few devotees who I miss are Vipina Purandara Dasa, Sanjaya Dasa, and my Godsisters Gopinatha, Mahabhoga, Mahadhana, Lalita Sakai, and many great Brahmacaris. If you discuss this with ISKCON they tell you yes Ritvic was authorized until the Gurus disappearance. Now they are the living Guru party preaching the gospel of worship me.

Jayamadhava Das: The whole thing is Embarrassing....''No guru reform'' was done .........Look at Iskcon Today its A MESS.

PP: JR thanks for that detail of the straight after effect of Prabhupadas leaving us. I believe this immediate impression and activity indicated the motive and guilt of the ring leaders. To close the Bhagavatam and not read purport indicated TKG distain for his Spiritual Master. Actions speak louder. And ever since then you can see by the actions of the ongoing men gurus this distain they have for Srila Prabhupada by their actions of changing his books.

BB Das: So true, devotees unite!

DAP: Satsvarupa: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, PARTICULAR AT THE TIME WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted."

Prabhupada: "Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas."

Tamala Krsna: "Is that called ritvik-acharya?"

Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…

Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.

Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru haia. Be actually guru, but by my order.

Prabhupada: "Ritvik yes." [Vrndava, May 28th, 1977]


"The Appointment Tape" -- Srila Prabhupada orders ritviks for ISKCON

Torben Nielsen: I follow Srila Prabhupada´s siksa. I am not diksa-initiated. I once was, but I rejected it - publicly.

PADA: Right, Torben wants us to all worship the GBC's gurus, which he himself rejects. We cannot worship Prabhupada, we have to worship someone else, but Torben does not even know who that someone else is? He is a mayavada. 

At least he admits that he cannot worship the GBC's gurus either, so that is a good start. So this is amazing, he wants people to worship nothing and no one as their guru, and offer the bhogha and disciples to the big nothingness in the sky. All glories to -- nobody! Hee hee! Mayavada!  

There are only three types of gurus in ISKCON today: (A) Sexual predators, alcoholics, and debauchees; (B) Those who enabled, empowered, reinstated, covered up for and facilitated the debauchee guru process and; (C) Those voted in by the two above groups. No wonder Torben cannot name his guru! ys pd

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