Dear PADA: Does this sound like Srila Prabhupada words, or Gaur Govinda's dream?
The following is a transcript from a darshan with Srila Gour Govinda Swami in Bhubanesvara, April 1989. I don't know if you will take it as documentary evidence, but it works for me, and is consummate with whatever else I accept about Srila Gour Govinda Swami. In other words, I believe him ... Srila Prabhupada made statements that his disciples should become gurus, but he as well made statements making it plain that no one can BE Guru without receiving the order from the predecessor Acarya / one's own qualified and authorized Guru.
Qualification and authorization cannot be artfully side-stepped on the pretext of saving humanity. It is Krsna who delivers the jivas through the agency of His own men, His pure via mediums; and it is Krsna who knows and who says who they are.
"Devotee: Do you have one letter Prabhupada wrote to you saying he wanted you to initiate disciples? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, he told me here, there in that room. Prabhupada was staying there in 1977. At that time it was a jungle, nothing was here, a jungle and Prabhupada came here and stayed here for 17 days in that room. In that room he told me. Every word of Prabhupada was being taped you see, always taping.
"Devotee: Do you have one letter Prabhupada wrote to you saying he wanted you to initiate disciples? Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, he told me here, there in that room. Prabhupada was staying there in 1977. At that time it was a jungle, nothing was here, a jungle and Prabhupada came here and stayed here for 17 days in that room. In that room he told me. Every word of Prabhupada was being taped you see, always taping.
Whatever Prabhupada said, his secretary of devotees, Satsvarupa Maharaj, first Ramesvara came, then he left, then Satsvarup Maharaj came; he was secretary- in that room, next to it my room. At that time I was staying there with Satsvarupa, his servant, Govinda Misra Pandit, typing, all books, he had a trunk. He called me. He had decided to open center here.
At that time Gargamuni Swami and Gurukripa, they told Prabhupada, “Why shall we open center, build temple here? This is a jungle. No one will come. Why will you spend money here? Better open in Puri." Prabhupada said, "No, I want here" and threw them all out and called me, whispered in my ear, "Gour Govind, they are objecting. But I want, this will be best center in ISKCON. You stay here. They'll come and go. You should accept disciples. You should have your own men otherwise how can you manage?"
[PADA: OK this does not make any sense.
Why would Srila Prabhupada appoint one person, ok GGM, to be his guru successor, and not notify the entire society he had done so? Naturally no one else in the society would accept this alleged "appointment" of this one person -- without some public statements or documents to confirm this was being ordered. Suppose one lone brother shows up at the funeral and he says to all the other brothers, "Our father appointed me as the sole heir to his legacy -- in a secret talk."
Q: How many other brothers would believe that?
A: OK, probably none.
Why would the father appoint one lone heir in secret, and not notify the other children of this appointing process, knowing this would cause schism and chaos? The whole idea that the father "secretly whispered" the order of his succession to only one person makes it look like the father was not clear about how his orders should be conducted. Of course the whole "appointment" of eleven GBC gurus was ALSO never verified, that is because -- there was no guru appointment of one or eleven gurus.
Sorry! We have to rely on the statements and documents we do have, such as -- the will, the July 9th letter, and so forth. Anyone can walk into a church and say he is the "secretly appointed" heir to Jesus, however in the real world, this person never inherits the post of heir and successor because -- it cannot be proven.
The other problem is, why would Srila Prabhupada tell one person to exclusively initiate "his own people," making an immediate crisis of a separated schism from the rest of ISKCON? Gaura Govinda maharaja says he was to have "his own people," and that means the rest of ISKCON and the other GBC would have "their own people" and they would each be separated from the integrated system of a unified ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada wanted and ordered.
That means there will right away be a schism crisis, this person has "his own men," that person has "his own men," and there will no longer be a unified society. If a person joins a Christian church, he does not become the exclusive member or property of that particular church, he is a member of the entire group of churches nationwide or even worldwide.
Sorry, we do not get to have our own men, our own property, our own anything, at least in the integrated society that ISKCON is supposed to be. The same thing happens in a mundane corporation. The manager of Walmart San Francisco might be offered a job as a Walmart manager in Los Angeles, and he will move there and continue his services there, because even they know, no one is the property of a particular location. That means GGM still has the "zonal guru" disease, "I am going to have my OWN people in my OWN zone or area.
No! The workers of ISKCON need to able to move anywhere within the institution freely, and that is how ISKCON was operating while Srila Prabhupada was here: Anyone could go to any temple anywhere in the world, and that person was not the property of a particular zone and so on. So this was the first problem we had after 1977, the GBC said that the local people in "their zone" were "their people" and there was a sort of freeze on travel and interaction because folks from one zone were discouraged to travel and move to another. Gaura Govinda maharaja has had the same GBC guru disease, this is my zone, my project, my people, etc.]
[PADA: OK this does not make any sense.
Why would Srila Prabhupada appoint one person, ok GGM, to be his guru successor, and not notify the entire society he had done so? Naturally no one else in the society would accept this alleged "appointment" of this one person -- without some public statements or documents to confirm this was being ordered. Suppose one lone brother shows up at the funeral and he says to all the other brothers, "Our father appointed me as the sole heir to his legacy -- in a secret talk."
Q: How many other brothers would believe that?
A: OK, probably none.
Why would the father appoint one lone heir in secret, and not notify the other children of this appointing process, knowing this would cause schism and chaos? The whole idea that the father "secretly whispered" the order of his succession to only one person makes it look like the father was not clear about how his orders should be conducted. Of course the whole "appointment" of eleven GBC gurus was ALSO never verified, that is because -- there was no guru appointment of one or eleven gurus.
Sorry! We have to rely on the statements and documents we do have, such as -- the will, the July 9th letter, and so forth. Anyone can walk into a church and say he is the "secretly appointed" heir to Jesus, however in the real world, this person never inherits the post of heir and successor because -- it cannot be proven.
The other problem is, why would Srila Prabhupada tell one person to exclusively initiate "his own people," making an immediate crisis of a separated schism from the rest of ISKCON? Gaura Govinda maharaja says he was to have "his own people," and that means the rest of ISKCON and the other GBC would have "their own people" and they would each be separated from the integrated system of a unified ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada wanted and ordered.
That means there will right away be a schism crisis, this person has "his own men," that person has "his own men," and there will no longer be a unified society. If a person joins a Christian church, he does not become the exclusive member or property of that particular church, he is a member of the entire group of churches nationwide or even worldwide.
Sorry, we do not get to have our own men, our own property, our own anything, at least in the integrated society that ISKCON is supposed to be. The same thing happens in a mundane corporation. The manager of Walmart San Francisco might be offered a job as a Walmart manager in Los Angeles, and he will move there and continue his services there, because even they know, no one is the property of a particular location. That means GGM still has the "zonal guru" disease, "I am going to have my OWN people in my OWN zone or area.
No! The workers of ISKCON need to able to move anywhere within the institution freely, and that is how ISKCON was operating while Srila Prabhupada was here: Anyone could go to any temple anywhere in the world, and that person was not the property of a particular zone and so on. So this was the first problem we had after 1977, the GBC said that the local people in "their zone" were "their people" and there was a sort of freeze on travel and interaction because folks from one zone were discouraged to travel and move to another. Gaura Govinda maharaja has had the same GBC guru disease, this is my zone, my project, my people, etc.]
GGM: And that I kept in my heart. So this came in GBC meeting. At that time they were selecting gurus. I said this thing, that Prabhupada had told me. They said, "What is the proof? What proof do you want? It is kept in my heart."
[PADA: The proof is in your heart? Right, Gaura Govinda Maharaja announces that he has been appointed as the guru of ISKCON, but he waited to make this announcement until just after Srila Prabhupada had departed. Thus he has no proof that he was ever appointed as a guru, therefore there is no way to confirm his appointment since Srila Prabhupada was not physically here to verify it.
This is the same problem with the GBC gurus. They announced that eleven of them had been appointed as gurus just AFTER Srila Prabhupada departed, so there is no way to verify this appointment. If they had been appointed when Srila Prabhupada was here, why did no one else know about this appointment? After the father departs, a son (or eleven sons) declare they are the exclusive heirs, when this appointment was never known while the father was physically present? Even in the world of the so-called mundaners, no one can declare they are the heir with no verification.]
I shared that letter that Prabhupada had written, "that this should be done under your leadership" - spiritual leader, guru, they were not letting me.
[PADA: Where is this letter where it says GGM will be a guru? And why have we never seen it?]
I had to fight. Many Oriyan people were complaining that I was not initiating, so they were disappointed, and some were leaving. Some went to Gaudiya Math. Prabhupada is sending his men to me but they are being disappointed.
[PADA: OK, but if one is truly the self-effulgent acharya, one do not need the GBC's rubber stamp of authority? Srila Prabhupada did not get or need to approval or rubber stamp of his God brothers to be a guru. If one is a factual guru, one does not need to beg others for a rubber stamp in that capacity. If one is the acharya, then why fight with the GBC, just go ahead and be the acharya and make your own mission without fighting.
Srila Prabhupada is sending his men to me and they are being disappointed, well yes, because you are wrapped up in pleasing the GBC and helping their guru rubber stamping business, and you are not promoting Srila Prabhupada as the acharya. Instead GGM is always discussing the great issue of the GBC and his need to "cooperate" with them. If the GBC are bogus, and you are the next acharya, then create your own program and move on as all previous acharyas did.]
[...] Devotee: I feel very inspired to get the mercy. Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Prabhupada's mercy, Guru Maharaja’s mercy. Mahaprabhu is very merciful. You are very eager, yes, you must get his mercy. He is sending his men to me. You are Prabhupada's men. Prabhupada said, “My Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has sent his men to me.” Similarly my Guru Maharaja is sending you to me to help me in this project. One who needs help, my business is to give him help, to help him, yes. My Guru Maharaja has said that thing to me so I must do my duty. One who is really a needy person, he needs help, so I must render help the best I can."
[PADA: The real problem here is that both GGM and the eleven GBC gurus claimed to have been appointed as gurus, when neither party has shown any proof. Nor did either party disclose this alleged guru appointment when Srila Prahupada was present, so it could not be verified.
Instead of challenging the GBC's bogus guru appointment, Gaura Govinda maharaja went begging to get a guru rubber stamp from them. A vaishnava should be independent, whether us or GGM or anyone else. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura says its better to live with the mundaners than to stay with the charlatan yogis, and he is right.
Gaura Govinda Maharaja also said Sabda Brahman does not descend from tapes and books, you need to hear from the lips of a living person. Oddly, his followers have made a tape ministry of his words, after he said tapes are of no use? Anyway, here are some other relevant links:
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2014/06/problems-with-gaura-govinda-maharaja.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/08/wasnt-gaura-govinda-maharaja-cleaning.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/02/hypocrisy-of-ggm-and-narayan-maharaja.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2012/04/gaura-govinda-maharaja-appointment-in.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2012/03/gaura-govinda-maharaja-folks-reply.html
[PADA: The proof is in your heart? Right, Gaura Govinda Maharaja announces that he has been appointed as the guru of ISKCON, but he waited to make this announcement until just after Srila Prabhupada had departed. Thus he has no proof that he was ever appointed as a guru, therefore there is no way to confirm his appointment since Srila Prabhupada was not physically here to verify it.
This is the same problem with the GBC gurus. They announced that eleven of them had been appointed as gurus just AFTER Srila Prabhupada departed, so there is no way to verify this appointment. If they had been appointed when Srila Prabhupada was here, why did no one else know about this appointment? After the father departs, a son (or eleven sons) declare they are the exclusive heirs, when this appointment was never known while the father was physically present? Even in the world of the so-called mundaners, no one can declare they are the heir with no verification.]
I shared that letter that Prabhupada had written, "that this should be done under your leadership" - spiritual leader, guru, they were not letting me.
[PADA: Where is this letter where it says GGM will be a guru? And why have we never seen it?]
I had to fight. Many Oriyan people were complaining that I was not initiating, so they were disappointed, and some were leaving. Some went to Gaudiya Math. Prabhupada is sending his men to me but they are being disappointed.
[PADA: OK, but if one is truly the self-effulgent acharya, one do not need the GBC's rubber stamp of authority? Srila Prabhupada did not get or need to approval or rubber stamp of his God brothers to be a guru. If one is a factual guru, one does not need to beg others for a rubber stamp in that capacity. If one is the acharya, then why fight with the GBC, just go ahead and be the acharya and make your own mission without fighting.
Srila Prabhupada is sending his men to me and they are being disappointed, well yes, because you are wrapped up in pleasing the GBC and helping their guru rubber stamping business, and you are not promoting Srila Prabhupada as the acharya. Instead GGM is always discussing the great issue of the GBC and his need to "cooperate" with them. If the GBC are bogus, and you are the next acharya, then create your own program and move on as all previous acharyas did.]
[...] Devotee: I feel very inspired to get the mercy. Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Prabhupada's mercy, Guru Maharaja’s mercy. Mahaprabhu is very merciful. You are very eager, yes, you must get his mercy. He is sending his men to me. You are Prabhupada's men. Prabhupada said, “My Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has sent his men to me.” Similarly my Guru Maharaja is sending you to me to help me in this project. One who needs help, my business is to give him help, to help him, yes. My Guru Maharaja has said that thing to me so I must do my duty. One who is really a needy person, he needs help, so I must render help the best I can."
[PADA: The real problem here is that both GGM and the eleven GBC gurus claimed to have been appointed as gurus, when neither party has shown any proof. Nor did either party disclose this alleged guru appointment when Srila Prahupada was present, so it could not be verified.
Instead of challenging the GBC's bogus guru appointment, Gaura Govinda maharaja went begging to get a guru rubber stamp from them. A vaishnava should be independent, whether us or GGM or anyone else. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura says its better to live with the mundaners than to stay with the charlatan yogis, and he is right.
Gaura Govinda Maharaja also said Sabda Brahman does not descend from tapes and books, you need to hear from the lips of a living person. Oddly, his followers have made a tape ministry of his words, after he said tapes are of no use? Anyway, here are some other relevant links:
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2014/06/problems-with-gaura-govinda-maharaja.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/08/wasnt-gaura-govinda-maharaja-cleaning.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/02/hypocrisy-of-ggm-and-narayan-maharaja.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2012/04/gaura-govinda-maharaja-appointment-in.html
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2012/03/gaura-govinda-maharaja-folks-reply.html
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