[PADA: Govinda Dasi has said that the GBC gurus are falling down:
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2014/11/destroyed-by-guru-game-govinda-dasi.html ]
Gauragopala Dasa: Nicely explained. Although in all fairness there has never been a Vaishnava organization as big as ISKCON that covers the entire world and it has only been going for 48 years, so there will obviously be growing and learning pains for such a big organization, the lessen here is NO ONE can imitate a pure devotee and if they try, it will NOT last because 'no lie can live forever!'
Mayesa Dasa: The problem is not knowing how to advance-we think it is a mental and an intellectual situation. And those around them also. So everyone doesn't understand. And where will you go to learn?
Saradiya Dasi: Srila Prabhupada's books have everything we need to know about the qualities of a pure devotee.
Gopinath Dasa: And ...so.... the show must go on...at any cost.
Saradiya Dasi: Whose responsible for disciples of gurus who have left their position?
Gopinath Dasa: according to the latest GBC foolosophy SP just became a "deliverer" acharya ... pretty much these modern day rubber-stamped reprobate wannabes get all the perks of as good as GOD worship, money, facilities,toys, etc... without any responsibilities to deliver their disciples....
Devarsirat Das: One can not negotiate round the watch and will of the Supreme Lord, who knows and sees everything. One should be on the look out for the genuine pure devotee and not be restricted by the walls of any institution and go and surrender to His Lotus feet.
Sanaka Rsi: Who's the newly fallen?
Kala Das: Thank you Govinda Dasi for your display of genuine compassion for all those affected by such situations.
Jayasri Radha DeviDasi Acbsp: "You all become guru" men, women, children. (All) Just as in Christianity. All of them bring others to Lord Jesus -- just as Srila Prabhupada confirmed as a bonafide process. The priest does the baptism and connects others with Jesus (mainly the Baptists do it when one is older) they use water ,,, whereas in vedic tradition we generally use fire. Same idea.... some official ceremony to connect and vows made..
Srila Prabhupada says that if one follows the priest who only speaks what Lord Jesus taught then at the end of life they will go to Lord Jesus.. Though some say it was never done in our Vaisnava Sampradaya. I don't think so ..... but even if that were true.. Srila Prabhupada has a right to do just as he did, as many other things that where not done before that he did.
He was not going against shastra or Vedic culture, its just not commonly done in our recent history.. Everyone is supposed to be a shiksha .. to help others according to our capacity.... then those who are designated can do the ritvic initiations as Srila Prabhupada said it in the question tape loud and clear.. but they wanted to misconstrue.
Its on the tape "Yes Ritvic" Its also in writing ... If anyone uses their God given intelligence we can see that the so called Zonal Acharya thing could not work.. Why?.... It was not set up by Srila Prabhupada. What he set up should be perfect then... Of course those Priests Brahmans were supposed to stay at one designation and initiate locals because they where just the formal initiation and of course they could take shiksha association from the priest.. (just as one does in the Christian tradition).
But instead they took it that they were the worship-able, deliverers ... hope they figure it out so the world can be saved. They will, when all the original disciples are not on the planet.. Then all will want to be connected with Prabhupada, as all are to be... that is the set up. Hare Krishna All glories to our Beloved Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya! We sing it every day in Guru puja.. He is our guru life after life! Hari bol
We also have to understand that all 11 were either all Acharyas appointed by Srila Prabhupada or not.. and we see not at all, so not.. The ritvic system set up makes more sense if anyone can understand this simple truth which will bring practically the whole world to Krishna consciousness when it is implemented as he directed. Hare Krishna.
Radhacaran Das: The Ritvik system is not part of Gaudiya Vaisnavism or for that matter part of the other 3 sampradayas, or even the Shankara line. However, what is part of our Gaudiya mission and it could not be more simple to understand is the "Every Town and Village" system which calls, not for a handful of big gurus to be in an ivory tower and disintegrate, but to have thousands of smaller gurus who can handle a handful of disciples in their localities. This perfectly matches Prabhupada's wish to see all his disciples become gurus. That makes sense and is durable, feasible, bonafide, blessed and ordered by Lord Caitanya.
Mayesa Dasa: Radhacaran das you do not know what an advanced devotee is.
Jayasri Radha DeviDasi Acbsp Yes all become shiksha gurus. Srila Prabhupada is the deliver. We are not interested in some sectarian thing.. Srila Prabhupada confirmed Ritvic and said thas what he wanted.. Its written and its on tape.. HE says the words..Im not going to argue. Thats just the instruction.. if devotees want to over ride with their own ideas then nothing can be done for them... Hope all come to their senses. Hare Krishna!
Dhritarastradas Tulasidasi: All iskcon books say " .ISKCON Founder Acarya" not just founder ... but Acarya. Srila Prabhupada was very insistent about this on all books, program posters, letters etc.
Patita Pavana Das: Wait a minute, the quote Mother Govinda dasi gave says that a guru will rise naturally. Mother Jayasri, Isn't your assertion a contradiction of this statement of our (your, mine, Govinda's) Guru Maharaja? I am trying to figure this out.
Dhritarastradas Tulasidasi: It seems even senior devotees could not really tell who was advanced. We know Srila Prabhupada is. Many we put faith in where fired up sincere, but not on highest platform. It seems iskcons approach is set up for failure by putting very sincere devotees in a position most can't maintain and as a result many devotees become discouraged or leave all together.
Srila Prabhupada tells everyone in his books to approach a bonafide spiritual master. so people coming to iskcon assume that the gurus presented by iskcon are the gurus described in His books. so when a guru falls the devotee feels cheated or misled or even lied to. This is a HUGE recurring PROBLEM. I don't see how this can be rectified and managed in a world wide movement under the approach iskcon is following. what is the answer?
Mahaksadasa Matt Johnson: Our line is the descending path, the guru is known for his service, not his mastery. Such a clear teaching, cant understand how it was missed.
Mahasrnga-Crawford Dasa: Unless one is a bona-fide guru, coming in disciplic succession and authorized by his guru the karma of his "disciples" stays with him and can't be passed up the line to Krsna. The GBC know that conditioned souls voting in other conditioned souls as "guru" is wrong, but when you bring it up their brain washed minds bring up the "ritvik" dance.
William: http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/tfo.htm#July
Saradiya Dasi: So how many years has this debate been raging? Perhaps we need to see what the results have churned out. Actions speak louder than words. So of the original 11 or 12, who is still standing in the same spotlight? And the others, how are they faring? And how many of the disciples of the gurus are with them? How many gurus have the followers gone through? Anyone done a study of this?
Mahasrnga-Crawford Dasa: Paramatma is seeing and remembering everything. Shame some of the "present day" gurus don't believe. Study would be good but be careful of who you show it too.
Visnupriya-devi Dasi: Everyone will be judged at the time of death, GBC or otherwise.....
Mahaksadasa Matt Johnson: There is no controversy here at all. Guru tattwa is completely and perfectly taught in the second chapter of science of self realization. There is no go between, no artificial ecclesiastical gurus, nor is there any rebellious movements who deviaze unauthorized initiation SYSTEMS that serve any valid purpose in regard to guru disciple relationships. Guru is ultimately Lord Nityananda who resides in the heart of all who live as supersoul. He is the cause of initiation, it is He who manifests as guru and places the sincere candidate for devotional service at the feet of who HE decides will represent Him. It is Lord Balarama who disposes of the imposters with his kusa weapon and installs the proper One to hear from.
Masrnga-Crawford Dasa: Srila Prabhupada is a Uttama-Adhikari associating and acting on behalf of Lord Krsna in Kali Yuga. He observed the quality and ambition of his disciples and saw no one was qualified to be a diksa guru. Therefore being a perfect living being he set up the right system.
Padmagarbha Das Ir would like to take this opportunity to express by deepest apology to the victims of this particularly above mentioned most vile "soul-molester", and also to ALL those others previously and presently cheated and betrayed by these lying "iskcon" guru.
Mahasrnga-Crawford Dasa Very interesting perspective Padmagarbha prabhu. Hope a few get by sentiment to ponder over weakness and cheating.
Padmagarbha Das Well the fact that the guru system in ISKCON is bogus is beyond doubt for those who have some intelligence and who know the history of the GBC’s system – which has no precedence in India or our Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition or in the vani of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura or Srila Prabhupada for that matter.
Having said that if we keep on harping on the term ‘rtvik’ we will run into trouble because as you know and Srila Prabhupada has taught that a rtvik is a priest who performs rituals related to a particular Veda. The only rtvik at a formal initiation would be the brahmin conducting the fire yajna. The nonsense espoused by Radhacarana dasa is useless verging on disingenuous in this issue - for Srila Prabhupada is the Acarya and he dictates sastra for mankind and he established the representative system and it was operational in his time and henceforward should have been operational.
To say that there is no sastric reference is foolish to say the least and offensive to Srila Prabhupada who established and operated such a system. “On your recommendation” has been the process in ISKCON... on the TP’s recommendation one is accepted as a aspiring disciple... On the recommendation of the Representative of the Acrarya for initiation Srila Prabhupada accepts the aspiring disciple as a disciple.
On your recommendation functions under the ‘representative of the acarya’ principle. Another point to consider in this whole fiasco is that why do devotees insist that Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone when he is on our altars in all our Temples as a arca vigraha Deity. He is worshipped morning to night, we all pay our obeisances to him multiple times a day and we sing his guru puja every morning in all our temples... So how is he not non different to Radha Shyamasundar on our altars?
Oh and where is it in sastra that one can sing ‘Gurudev’ to their bogus guru prior to Srila Prabhupada’s Gurupuja in an ISKCON Temple??? If they were gurus in their own right they would have gurupuja offered to them in the Temple and Srila Prabhupada would be only found on the altar? Of course the disciples can do anything they want with their bogus gurus. What would be the best scenario is that the gurus preach in new fields separate from ISKCON and open their own temples and then they can have their disciples worship them with all the pomp and ceremony they desire without restraint???
What is more - how can anyone say when we are invoking the devatas and the Visnu tattvas ect to any yajna that they do not come, if it is pure enough and the Hare Krsna mantra is being sung – so how can anyone think that Srila Prabhupada is not also present at these yajnas when or if he is invited???? That he is not present at the initiation yajna??? That he does not hear our prayers?
That he does not accept them?
These are all mundane minded devotees who do not accept the transcendental world... Anyway thought that I might have my say... Take care - Krsnacandra dasa
=================================
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2014/11/destroyed-by-guru-game-govinda-dasi.html ]
Gauragopala Dasa: Nicely explained. Although in all fairness there has never been a Vaishnava organization as big as ISKCON that covers the entire world and it has only been going for 48 years, so there will obviously be growing and learning pains for such a big organization, the lessen here is NO ONE can imitate a pure devotee and if they try, it will NOT last because 'no lie can live forever!'
Mayesa Dasa: The problem is not knowing how to advance-we think it is a mental and an intellectual situation. And those around them also. So everyone doesn't understand. And where will you go to learn?
Saradiya Dasi: Srila Prabhupada's books have everything we need to know about the qualities of a pure devotee.
Gopinath Dasa: And ...so.... the show must go on...at any cost.
Saradiya Dasi: Whose responsible for disciples of gurus who have left their position?
Gopinath Dasa: according to the latest GBC foolosophy SP just became a "deliverer" acharya ... pretty much these modern day rubber-stamped reprobate wannabes get all the perks of as good as GOD worship, money, facilities,toys, etc... without any responsibilities to deliver their disciples....
Devarsirat Das: One can not negotiate round the watch and will of the Supreme Lord, who knows and sees everything. One should be on the look out for the genuine pure devotee and not be restricted by the walls of any institution and go and surrender to His Lotus feet.
Sanaka Rsi: Who's the newly fallen?
Kala Das: Thank you Govinda Dasi for your display of genuine compassion for all those affected by such situations.
Jayasri Radha DeviDasi Acbsp: "You all become guru" men, women, children. (All) Just as in Christianity. All of them bring others to Lord Jesus -- just as Srila Prabhupada confirmed as a bonafide process. The priest does the baptism and connects others with Jesus (mainly the Baptists do it when one is older) they use water ,,, whereas in vedic tradition we generally use fire. Same idea.... some official ceremony to connect and vows made..
Srila Prabhupada says that if one follows the priest who only speaks what Lord Jesus taught then at the end of life they will go to Lord Jesus.. Though some say it was never done in our Vaisnava Sampradaya. I don't think so ..... but even if that were true.. Srila Prabhupada has a right to do just as he did, as many other things that where not done before that he did.
He was not going against shastra or Vedic culture, its just not commonly done in our recent history.. Everyone is supposed to be a shiksha .. to help others according to our capacity.... then those who are designated can do the ritvic initiations as Srila Prabhupada said it in the question tape loud and clear.. but they wanted to misconstrue.
Its on the tape "Yes Ritvic" Its also in writing ... If anyone uses their God given intelligence we can see that the so called Zonal Acharya thing could not work.. Why?.... It was not set up by Srila Prabhupada. What he set up should be perfect then... Of course those Priests Brahmans were supposed to stay at one designation and initiate locals because they where just the formal initiation and of course they could take shiksha association from the priest.. (just as one does in the Christian tradition).
But instead they took it that they were the worship-able, deliverers ... hope they figure it out so the world can be saved. They will, when all the original disciples are not on the planet.. Then all will want to be connected with Prabhupada, as all are to be... that is the set up. Hare Krishna All glories to our Beloved Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya! We sing it every day in Guru puja.. He is our guru life after life! Hari bol
We also have to understand that all 11 were either all Acharyas appointed by Srila Prabhupada or not.. and we see not at all, so not.. The ritvic system set up makes more sense if anyone can understand this simple truth which will bring practically the whole world to Krishna consciousness when it is implemented as he directed. Hare Krishna.
Radhacaran Das: The Ritvik system is not part of Gaudiya Vaisnavism or for that matter part of the other 3 sampradayas, or even the Shankara line. However, what is part of our Gaudiya mission and it could not be more simple to understand is the "Every Town and Village" system which calls, not for a handful of big gurus to be in an ivory tower and disintegrate, but to have thousands of smaller gurus who can handle a handful of disciples in their localities. This perfectly matches Prabhupada's wish to see all his disciples become gurus. That makes sense and is durable, feasible, bonafide, blessed and ordered by Lord Caitanya.
Mayesa Dasa: Radhacaran das you do not know what an advanced devotee is.
Jayasri Radha DeviDasi Acbsp Yes all become shiksha gurus. Srila Prabhupada is the deliver. We are not interested in some sectarian thing.. Srila Prabhupada confirmed Ritvic and said thas what he wanted.. Its written and its on tape.. HE says the words..Im not going to argue. Thats just the instruction.. if devotees want to over ride with their own ideas then nothing can be done for them... Hope all come to their senses. Hare Krishna!
Dhritarastradas Tulasidasi: All iskcon books say " .ISKCON Founder Acarya" not just founder ... but Acarya. Srila Prabhupada was very insistent about this on all books, program posters, letters etc.
Patita Pavana Das: Wait a minute, the quote Mother Govinda dasi gave says that a guru will rise naturally. Mother Jayasri, Isn't your assertion a contradiction of this statement of our (your, mine, Govinda's) Guru Maharaja? I am trying to figure this out.
Dhritarastradas Tulasidasi: It seems even senior devotees could not really tell who was advanced. We know Srila Prabhupada is. Many we put faith in where fired up sincere, but not on highest platform. It seems iskcons approach is set up for failure by putting very sincere devotees in a position most can't maintain and as a result many devotees become discouraged or leave all together.
Srila Prabhupada tells everyone in his books to approach a bonafide spiritual master. so people coming to iskcon assume that the gurus presented by iskcon are the gurus described in His books. so when a guru falls the devotee feels cheated or misled or even lied to. This is a HUGE recurring PROBLEM. I don't see how this can be rectified and managed in a world wide movement under the approach iskcon is following. what is the answer?
Mahaksadasa Matt Johnson: Our line is the descending path, the guru is known for his service, not his mastery. Such a clear teaching, cant understand how it was missed.
Mahasrnga-Crawford Dasa: Unless one is a bona-fide guru, coming in disciplic succession and authorized by his guru the karma of his "disciples" stays with him and can't be passed up the line to Krsna. The GBC know that conditioned souls voting in other conditioned souls as "guru" is wrong, but when you bring it up their brain washed minds bring up the "ritvik" dance.
William: http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/tfo.htm#July
Saradiya Dasi: So how many years has this debate been raging? Perhaps we need to see what the results have churned out. Actions speak louder than words. So of the original 11 or 12, who is still standing in the same spotlight? And the others, how are they faring? And how many of the disciples of the gurus are with them? How many gurus have the followers gone through? Anyone done a study of this?
Mahasrnga-Crawford Dasa: Paramatma is seeing and remembering everything. Shame some of the "present day" gurus don't believe. Study would be good but be careful of who you show it too.
Visnupriya-devi Dasi: Everyone will be judged at the time of death, GBC or otherwise.....
Mahaksadasa Matt Johnson: There is no controversy here at all. Guru tattwa is completely and perfectly taught in the second chapter of science of self realization. There is no go between, no artificial ecclesiastical gurus, nor is there any rebellious movements who deviaze unauthorized initiation SYSTEMS that serve any valid purpose in regard to guru disciple relationships. Guru is ultimately Lord Nityananda who resides in the heart of all who live as supersoul. He is the cause of initiation, it is He who manifests as guru and places the sincere candidate for devotional service at the feet of who HE decides will represent Him. It is Lord Balarama who disposes of the imposters with his kusa weapon and installs the proper One to hear from.
Masrnga-Crawford Dasa: Srila Prabhupada is a Uttama-Adhikari associating and acting on behalf of Lord Krsna in Kali Yuga. He observed the quality and ambition of his disciples and saw no one was qualified to be a diksa guru. Therefore being a perfect living being he set up the right system.
Padmagarbha Das Ir would like to take this opportunity to express by deepest apology to the victims of this particularly above mentioned most vile "soul-molester", and also to ALL those others previously and presently cheated and betrayed by these lying "iskcon" guru.
Mahasrnga-Crawford Dasa Very interesting perspective Padmagarbha prabhu. Hope a few get by sentiment to ponder over weakness and cheating.
Padmagarbha Das Well the fact that the guru system in ISKCON is bogus is beyond doubt for those who have some intelligence and who know the history of the GBC’s system – which has no precedence in India or our Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition or in the vani of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura or Srila Prabhupada for that matter.
Having said that if we keep on harping on the term ‘rtvik’ we will run into trouble because as you know and Srila Prabhupada has taught that a rtvik is a priest who performs rituals related to a particular Veda. The only rtvik at a formal initiation would be the brahmin conducting the fire yajna. The nonsense espoused by Radhacarana dasa is useless verging on disingenuous in this issue - for Srila Prabhupada is the Acarya and he dictates sastra for mankind and he established the representative system and it was operational in his time and henceforward should have been operational.
To say that there is no sastric reference is foolish to say the least and offensive to Srila Prabhupada who established and operated such a system. “On your recommendation” has been the process in ISKCON... on the TP’s recommendation one is accepted as a aspiring disciple... On the recommendation of the Representative of the Acrarya for initiation Srila Prabhupada accepts the aspiring disciple as a disciple.
On your recommendation functions under the ‘representative of the acarya’ principle. Another point to consider in this whole fiasco is that why do devotees insist that Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone when he is on our altars in all our Temples as a arca vigraha Deity. He is worshipped morning to night, we all pay our obeisances to him multiple times a day and we sing his guru puja every morning in all our temples... So how is he not non different to Radha Shyamasundar on our altars?
Oh and where is it in sastra that one can sing ‘Gurudev’ to their bogus guru prior to Srila Prabhupada’s Gurupuja in an ISKCON Temple??? If they were gurus in their own right they would have gurupuja offered to them in the Temple and Srila Prabhupada would be only found on the altar? Of course the disciples can do anything they want with their bogus gurus. What would be the best scenario is that the gurus preach in new fields separate from ISKCON and open their own temples and then they can have their disciples worship them with all the pomp and ceremony they desire without restraint???
What is more - how can anyone say when we are invoking the devatas and the Visnu tattvas ect to any yajna that they do not come, if it is pure enough and the Hare Krsna mantra is being sung – so how can anyone think that Srila Prabhupada is not also present at these yajnas when or if he is invited???? That he is not present at the initiation yajna??? That he does not hear our prayers?
That he does not accept them?
These are all mundane minded devotees who do not accept the transcendental world... Anyway thought that I might have my say... Take care - Krsnacandra dasa
=================================
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