Defeating Sampradaya Sun’s Bangalore Drama and Sampradaya Acharya
In response to Rochon Prabhus The Bangalore Drama and Sampradaya Acharya.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-11/editorials7322.htm
“Better to be in maya thinking one’s self a disciple of Srila Prabhupada than to be a disciple of someone in maya.”
Hasti Gopala Dasa
So Rochon Prabhu considers as we know from his article that accepting Srila Prabhupada as one's diksa guru en masse or as a single person is a bad idea especially if their is a fire sacrifice involved. Better to "keep Srila Prabhupada at the centre" This is an old cliche used by ISKCON themselves to cause people to steer away from what is really meant by the term and to conclude automatically that the authorities must know what they are talking about. What we'd like to know from Sampradaya Sun is the exact in detail understanding of what is meant by "keeping Srila Prabhupada at the centre", not just in some temples but in our little homes and offices.
Please explain for the benefit of the whole world so that they may not entertain the "bad idea" of accepting Srila Prabhupada as one's diksa guru. Ritvikism is a con term never used by Srila Prabhupada and is not a Vedic term. It is invented, the proper term is simply Ritvik first used by Tamal Krsna on May 28th 1977 and confirmed as a system by Srila Prabhupada, it came about as a result of a conversation initiated by the GBC in 1977 so Rochon Prabhu would have you disregard that conversation regardless of the fact that his spiritual master answered to the inquiries made to him by the GBC..so strike the conversation...ok done.
Next! The July 9th, 1977 letter which came about as a result of the conversation in which the founder acharya and Krsna spoke must also be discarded by everyone because it stems from the disregarded May 28th 1977 conversation.
For as many reasons as scholar devotees can dig up from changed and original satsra from Srila Prabhupada’s books they will try to explain the reasons for deleting the May 28th conversation and the attending post conversation July 9th letter. ...oh, and by the way only Srila Prabhupada’s original books can be used to qualify their opinions otherwise one is stepping over and out of Srila Prabhupada’s jurisdiction. That's ok though if you don't plan on having him at the centre of your life or if you are a GBC, ISKCON guru follower or from some other sect.
See reference from Rochon Prabhus article below.
"In addition to the fact that they have simply, and very successfully kept Srila Prabhupada at the center in Bangalore, their success has also seemed to be a result of the kshatriya or king-like leadership of Madhu Pandit das. He is no doubt a brilliant and dedicated devotee. We were surprised, therefore, to hear the bad news that Madhu Pandit had recently orchestrated and performed a mass Rtvik initiation in Bangalore. As far as I understand it, this was the first time an official institutional procedure like this has been conducted by Bangalore."
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Madhu Pundit Prabhu has been doing exactly what Rochon Prabhu says he has not been doing, where is the evidence of not promoting a siksa environment, where has he not been giving Srila Prabhupada full recognition as being the Sampradaya Acharya. One thing he has not been doing, he has not been selectively disregarding Srila Prabhupada’s authority by telling people directly or indirectly what of Srila Prabhupada’s and Krsna’s words and historic instructions must be followed or not followed. "Simply follow Srila Prabhupada" means to live by his example in the same manner that Srila Prabhupada followed his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Swami Prabhupada which means accepting the orders and being obedient to Srila Prabhupada. Madu Pundit Prabhu has set an exemplary example of that himself and others have followed. Srila Prabhupada was accused by his God brothers of the very same accusation by Rochon Prabhu to Madhu Pundit Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada institutionalised a programme that put emphasis on Diksa based on Sastra that was and is accepted by his spiritual master and Krsna. Otherwise Srila Prabhupada would not have done it. Therefore Madhu Pundit Prabhu is showing uncommon valour beyond the call any leader to keep Srila Prabhupada where he desires to be kept, for the people.
See reference to Rochon Prabhu’s article below.
"We are left to wonder why it is that for so many years prior, Madhu Pandit das had been doing what I have suggested in my presentation – essentially promoting a Siksa environment, giving Srila Prabhupada full recognition as being a Sampradaya Acarya, and encouraging devotees to simply follow him, without institutionalizing a program that puts undue emphasis on diksa, while at the same time accepting the sastric basis for diksa."
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No, because he adopted Srila Prabhupada’s positions, Rochon Prabhu for all his dedication to Srila Prabhupada assumes that anyone following Srila Prabhupada’s instruction and obedience must be lacking some personal initiative. Learning from those who already know is the most universal of laws. Srila Prabhupada knows what is to be done and is continually teaching his dedicated disciples to this day, at least those who are still listening. Madhu Pundit prabhus official position is that of a disciple of Srila Prabhupada he has no other official position to promote. That's promotion enough. Srila Prabhupada does not need to be taught Rochon Prabhus philosophical perspective.
See reference to Rochon Prabhu’s article below.
"Unfortunately, for all the success he was getting in Bangalore over the years by practically employing just such a program, Madhu Pandit obviously did not adopt my philosophical perspective, or promote it as his own official position."
As we will see below in the next segment Rochon Prabhu does not refer to the new devotees of Srila Prabhupada at Bangalore as much as devotees but as "Ritiviks". Not even given the benefit of the doubt as if they are considered blind idiots who know nothing about Srila Prabhupada, his history or his works. That somehow Madhu Pundit has used them for his own political gain indicating indirectly that Madhu Pundit has now produced a number of simple pawns in a politico religious board game. Samefull!
Those new initiates are to be considered on equal terms as any of Srila Prabhupada senior devotees, they know what is meant by ISKCON and they know they are a large part of ISKCON...they are learned and dedicated enough to know their new responsibilities that lay ahead of them. They will never feel alienated or outside. They have no interest in being considered by anyone other than Srila Prabhupada and Krsna, anyone else's opinion of them has no impact at all. They will be maintaining the philosophy of Srila Prabhupada and the position as his disciples.
Notice no where in the referenced paragraph below does Rochon Prabhu have the dignity to refer to them as disciples or even devotees. So who is the political impersonal motivator in this paragraph?
See here also from the quoted piece below..."the GBC/ISKCON and their representatives in Mumbai, who will now be faced with taking over a temple filled with all these Rtviks." "these Ritivks" Cleverly labelling these most dedicated devotees not as anyone devoted to Srila Prabhupad at all. Of course damming with faint praise can seem to exit anyone from a highly offensive diatribe and old history lesson.
The referenced piece from Rochon Prabhu’s article.
"Personally, I think the recent mass Rtvik initiation ceremony in Bangalore was a political tactic employed by Madhu Pandit das to create a large block of individuals initiated via Rtvik diksa. If and when the new GBC-deputed leaders arrive in Bangalore, they will be faced with hundreds of inimical devotees who, after the Rtvik initiation ceremony, will now be even more alienated than before. Their new 'initiated' status will separate and delineate them as being devotees who are 'outside' of ISKCON. They won't be considered 'in good standing' in ISKCON while they maintain the philosophy and position as Rtvik-initiates. That alone will represent a huge manpower drain for any new leaders arriving in Bangalore.
So the timing of this mass initiation event is very suspect, occurring as it did just weeks before the High Court handed down its decision. It seems to be an obvious ploy to further thwart the GBC/ISKCON and their representatives in Mumbai, who will now be faced with taking over a temple filled with all these Rtviks. We can assume that many of these devotees were well trained, and have been helping to maintain Bangalore's elaborate Deity worship, preaching programs, and other aspects of temple management, all of which are reported to be very professionally organized."
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Finally: Below we will show reference to Rochon Prabhus Sampradaya Acharya philosophy as responded to by Damagosh Prabhu but never posted on Sampradaya Sun. If Rochon Prabhu believes as much in his approach as he says he does then Damagosh Prabhus response is indicative of why Madhu Pundit Prabhu never took up his philosophy...Madhu Pundit Prabhu continues to only take up Srila Prabhupadas philosophy.
Madhu Pundit Prabhu accepts nothing but Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, he has no need to try to cement anything. It is not the undoing of Bangalore as Rochon Prabhu predicts it is the undoing of nonsense.
"Unfortunately, for all the success he was getting in Bangalore over the years by practically employing just such a program, Madhu Pandit obviously did not adopt my philosophical perspective, or promote it as his own official position. I believe history will prove me right in my belief that the recent Rtvik initiations in Bangalore and Madhu Pandit prabhu's failure to adopt the Sampradaya Acarya philosophy, instead cementing his acceptance of Rtvik-vada, will stand as a part of Bangalore's undoing."
"Better to be in maya thinking one self as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada then to be a disciple of someone in maya"
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Damagosh Prabhu's response to Rochons Sampradaya Acharya posted below.
Hare Krsna To All
Pranams
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
One of our ongoing problems with presenting the ritvik idea which Srila Prabhupada desired for the future of his iskcon movement is that most of our adversaries will not print our replies or rebuttals to their nonsense ideas on this topic. Therefore in this following article I have directly posted Rocana's main article on this subject (The Sampradaya Acarya) in which he feels he has defeated all is opponents and established his own conclusion or Siddhanta for how iskcon and the greater Hare Krsna Movement can continue in the near future. Let us now proceed with his article and my comments upon it.
Rocana das of the Sampradaya Sun writes....
.."We also reject the GBC/ISKCON version of guru-tattva, but we do not believe that Rtvik-vada is any more siddhantically sound or bona fide. Both are asiddhantic deviations, and neither can be supported by Guru, Sadhu, Sastra. So we again urge devotees who are rejecting either or both of these positions to carefully consider the Sampradaya Acarya position, which we believe is a viable and sastrically supported approach to diksa initiations in Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON"...
So I went to his position paper on his website,to find out exactly what he thinks is the "future for iskcon regarding initiations in particular and here below is what he says --along with my comments...
Damaghosa das
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MY COMMENTS IN CAPS BELOW / ROCANA'S COMMENTS IN RED
I HAVE CUT AND PASTED HERE BELOW THE RELEVANT POINTS ROCANA WRITES IN HIS POSITION PAPER THE "SAMPRADAYA ACARYA." BECAUSE ITS FAR TOO LONG TO PUT THE WHOLE THING IN THIS ARTICLE. BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF HIS PAPER IS HERE REPRESENTED BELOW.
Rocana das writes..."All the previous acaryas in the disciplic succession are pure devotees or uttama-adhikaris. A new devotee should utilize his intelligence and accept a spiritual master on this same platform as acaryas such as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas
YES ALL PRABHUPADANUGAS OR WHAT YOU CALL "RITVIKS'', WOULD AGREE HERE.
Non-realization of the identity of the prominent Sampradaya Acarya is surely unfortunate, offensive, and has disastrous ramifications. It is my belief that this is the root cause of the dissolving of the two successive Sampradaya Acarya's preaching missions.
AND YET MANY DEVOTEES (LEADERS INCLUDED) DID AND DO RECOGNIZE SRILA PRABHUPADA AS A SAMPRADAYA ACARYA AND YET WILL STILL NOT ACCEPT HIS CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. ROCANA DAS IS ONE IN PARTICULAR. SO SEEING HIM OR NOT SEEING HIM AS A MAHABHAGAVAT IS NOT THE REAL REASON BOTH MISSIONS FELL APART. PRABHUPADA MENTIONS IN HIS PURPORTS THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEVATAS AND ASURAS, IS THAT BOTH RECOGNIZE THAT VISHNU IS GOD, BUT ONLY THE DEVAS FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS, WHEREAS THE ASURAS WILL NEVER FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS.THIS IS THE REAL REASON THE MISSIONS FELL APART. IT IS ALSO THE SAME REASON SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL THAT WE HAVE A "MATERIAL WORLD." TO NOT FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS OF GOD OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE MEANS ONE IS ENVIOUS OF THOSE INSTRUCTIONS AND THINKS HE OR SHE KNOWS BETTER.
"The Brahma disciplic line is the path recognized by all the followers of Lord Caitanya. This information has been obtained in accordance with the evidence of the book 'Gaura Ganodesa Dipika' of Srila Kavikarnapura, written in proper sequence and has been verified by Srila Vidyabhusana. One who does not accept this succession is definitely the foremost enemy of the Gaudiya Vaishnavites
WE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU HERE BECAUSE WE ACCEPT WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA WROTE FOR THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION IN HIS BHAGAVAD GITA AS IT IS.
"If we embrace this perception of Srila Prabhupada as the third in a succession of nitya-siddhas (Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode) sent directly by Lord Caitanya, there is hope of pushing forward his divine mission despite the physical absence of a manifest nitya-siddha Acarya.
AFTER NAROTAMMA DAS THAKURS TIME THERE WAS A PHYSICAL GAP OF A HUNDRED YEARS OR MORE, BEFORE SRILA VISVANATHA THAKUR CAME, THE NEXT IN LINE, YET STILL THE MOVEMENT WAS GOING ON, THE PREACHING WAS STILL THERE BECAUSE THE CORRECT SIDDHANTA WAS THERE. A PHYSICALLY PRESENT OR NOT PRESENT ACARYA WAS NOT IMPORTANT. WHY DO YOU AND SO MANY OTHERS IGNORE THIS VALID AND HIGHLY IMPORTANT POINT?
I feel it is imperative that this vision of the successive appearance of the three nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acaryas be enshired as a core belief in order for any Gaudiya Vaisnava preaching association to be successful. An accurate mission statement should attempt to embody the mood, mission and philosophical teachings of these divine personalities. From this time on, these three Sampradaya Acaryas should be included on the list of Sampradaya Acaryas presented by Srila Prabhupada.
WHY FOCUS ONLY ON THE LAST 3 ACARYAS AND NOT ALL OF THE PRECEDING ACARAYAS ? HOW CAN YOU SAY ONLY THE LAST THREE SHOULD BE ENSHRINED?
IF ALL OF THEM WERE NOT "ENSHRINEABLE", THEN THEY WOULD NOT BE IN OUR DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. YOUR SPIRITUAL VISION IS MYOPIC AND NOT INCLUSIVE OF THE ENTIRE PARAM PARA . HOW WOULD NARADA, OR VYASA DEV FEEL ABOUT THIS "ONLY THREE ACARYAS" SO CALLED SPIRITUAL VISION?
Defining the spiritual status of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and disciples in relationship to the Sampradaya Acaryas is the essence of the problem before us today.
THIS IS INCORRECT. WHAT IS THE ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM IS DISOBEDIENCE TO THE WORDS AND INSTRUCTIONS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
How many souls assembled on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra appreciated that Arjuna’s chariot driver was God? Lord Caitanya refused to hear mention of his true identity as an incarnation of the Lord. Our Sampradaya Acaryas have mercifully given us their complete vision and deep understanding of The Supreme Personality of Godhead’s pastimes. Yet few seem to realize that the same principle applies to the appearance of the nitya-siddha, shaktavesa avatara Sampradaya Acaryas.
YOU SEEM TO FORGET THAT IN MAHABHARAT IT WAS TO DURYODHANA THAT KRSNA SHOWED HIS UNIVERSAL FORM, AND ONE WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT TO CONVINCE HIM. HE WANTED A KINGDOM SO BAD HE COULD TASTE IT, DESPITE THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. SAME THINGS HAPPENED WITH THE ISKCON SO CALLED LEADERS WHO WANTED IT ALL AND DIDNT GIVE A DAMN WHAT THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER TOLD THEM TO DO. IT ALL COMES DOWN AGAIN TO DISOBEDIENCE TO THE ORDER OF GURU.
ANOTHER POINT IN YOUR ABOVE PARAGRAPH --IT SEEMS YOU THINK YOU NOW HAVE A "COMPLETE VISION AND DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF KRSNA AND HIS PURE DEVOTEE?" THAT SO CALLED "VISION" IS RESERVED ONLY FOR MAHA BHAGAVATS OR PURE DEVOTEES, FOR ONLY A PURE DEVOTEE CAN UNDERSTAND THE BEHAVIOR OF ANOTHER PURE DEVOTEE CORRECTLY.
Srila Prabhupada made it abundantly clear that he considers his Spiritual Master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and his divine father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, to be Sampradaya Acaryas sent by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All objective evidence points to the fact that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada is situated on the same spiritual platform. Yet from all our established contemporary Vaisnava communities, particularly the Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, we don’t find a commitment to this perspective. I’m not speaking of flowery, sentimental depictions, but of philosophically formulated “creeds” that all members are sworn to uphold.
YOU WILL FIND ON THE HARE KRSNA SOCIETY WEBPAGE A COMPLETE DESCRIPTION OF THE ACTUAL POSITION OF A SAMPRADAYA ACARYA SUCH AS SRILA PRABHUPADA.
They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection."
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 08-16-76, Bombay
YES- SO WHY DONT YOU DO THIS, ROCANA?
"Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation."
Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila 12.9 Purport
YOUR CONCOCTIONS ABOUT HOW INITIATIONS SHOULD GO ON IN THE FUTURE ARE OPINIONS DIFFERENT THAT YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL MASTER SRILA PRABHUPADA. THEREFORE YOUR "OPINIONS" ARE DEVIATIONS WHICH MAKES YOUR THINKING USELESS.--- HEY, I DIDN'T SAY THIS, PRABHUPADA DID !!
AS A SIDE NOTE, WHEN DID PRABHUPADA IN HIS LAST DAYS, THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES FOR FINAL INSTRUCTIONS,SAY WE SHOULD JUST WORSHIP THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA AND NOT CONDUCT INITIATIONS AT ALL OR WAIT FOR A MAHA BHAGAVAT TO APPEAR? HE NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THINGS AT ALL. AGAIN MORE OF YOUR CONCOCTIONS. WHAT HE DID SAY ABOUT INITIATING ON HIS BEHALF WE DO KNOW HE SAID AND WENT ON FOR SOME TIME ABOUT IT.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati requested the appointment of a GBC to maintain the preaching mission upon his departure, but he was silent as to the appointment of a successor Acarya.
WRONG AGAIN ROCANA--SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA MAHARAJ SAID TO CONDUCT THE MISSION OF THE GAUDIYA MATHA CONJOINTLY WITH THEIR GBC AND AMONGST THEM AN ACARYA WOULD EMERGE. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THIS INSTRUCTION TOO?
History has repeatedly demonstrated that both Acaryas placed the burden of responsibility squarely upon their respective GBC appointees, without precise instructions as to how their tasks should be accomplished.
BZZZT-WRONG ANSWER AGAIN ROCANA--BOTH ACARYAS, BOTH PRABHUPADAS GAVE EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS, ONE TELLING ALL THE GAUDIYA MATHA MEMBERS TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THEIR GBC'S IN CHARGE, AND OUR SRILA PRABHUPADA GAVE DETAILED WRITTEN AND VERBAL INSTRUCTIONS THAT A RITVIK SYSTEM (WHICH WAS ALREADY GOING ON FOR ABOUT 5 YEARS) WAS HIS DESIRE FOR THE FUTURE OF ISKCON. BUT NEITHER GROUPS LEADERS FOLLOWED THEIR GURU. HOW CAN YOU SAY THESE GREAT SAMPRADAYA ACARYAS (AS YOU CALL THEM YOURSELF) LEFT THEIR MISSION WITHOUT PRECISE INSTRUCTIONS FOR THEIR FUTURE? THEY EACH LEFT VOLUMES OF TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE OF INSTRUCTIONS AND THIS POINT THE "REAL POINT" THEY LEFT UNCLEAR???? GIMME A BREAK...
The onus was on them to come to the proper conclusion that their guru was much more than a “regular” spiritual master, but was rather a rare Sampradaya Acarya. As such, the normal course of events did not apply. During his lila, Lord Caitanya choose not to provide a nitya-siddha, maha-bhagavata, parampara-Acarya to replace him.
A BONA FIDE GURU COMES AND TAKES CHAOS AND TURNS IT INTO ORDER AND WHEN HE LEAVES HE WANTS CHAOS TO RETURN BY LEAVING EVERYTHING UP TO HIS NEOPHYTE DISCIPLES-TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR THEMSELVES?? THIS IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND SO CALLED LOGIC?
I FIND THIS HARD TO BELIEVE AND SAD TO HEAR THAT MAYA DEVI HAS SO CAPTURED SO MANY OF MY GODBROTHERS INTELLIGENCE THAT THIS IS THE BEST IDEA THEY CAN COME UP WITH?? OUR MAHA BHAGAVAT PURE DEVOTEE SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE DEMIGODS, GURU OF THE UNIVERSE LEAVES HIS MISSION UP TO SOME CHARLATANS MASQUERADING AS VAISNAVAS???? I DONT THINK SO.
AND ANOTHER SIDE POINT HE SAYS LORD GAURANGA DIDN'T LEAVE ANYBODY IN CHARGE AFTER HE LEFT?? SO GOD COMES HIMSELF AND THEN JUST LEAVES IT ALL UP TO--- WHATEVER?? SOUNDS TO ME LIKE "THERE IS NOBODY IN CHARGE OF THE UNIVERSE IDEOLOGY" COMING FROM ROCANS FERTILE IMAGINATIONS. HE SAYS--THERE IS NO STANDARD CLEAR PATH GIVEN BY THE ACARYA- GOD LEAVES THE PURSUIT OF DHARMA TO ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY TO MAKE IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG. BY SAYING THE "ACARYA LEAVES NO CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS' MEANS IN OTHER WORDS, EITHER THE ACARYA IS FOOLISH FOR DOING SO,( WHICH THEY ARE NOT), OR THE DISCIPLE IS JUST SO FOOLISH HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS THAT HIS OWN GURU MAHARAJ GAVE TO HIM, SO HE CONCOCTS SOMETHING INSTEAD. THIS IS IN FACT WHAT IT MEANS. THE SO CALLED DISCIPLES ARE FOOLS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR GURU HAS TOLD THEM. SOME DISCIPLES CAN UNDERSTAND AND SOME CANNOT. FOR THE ONES WHO DO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER SO CALLED DISCIPLES MAKE VAIKUNTHA- NOW HELL ON EARTH..
ONE SHOULD SEE HOW THIS FOOLISH MENTALITY CAN LEAD TO ATHEISIM. HOW IS THAT? THESE PERSONS ARE "THINKING" THAT BOTH SRILA PRABHUPADA'S LEFT THEIR MISSION UP TO THEIR DISCIPLES TO FIGURE OUT BY THEMSELVES SINCE THE ACARYAS LEFT THE MISSION'S SUCCESSION UNCLEAR !! ACTUALLY NEITHER OF THEM LEFT IT UNCLEAR BUT IT WAS UNCLEAR IN ONLY A FEW DISCIPLES MINDS. SO IN THOSE FOGGY BRAINS, EVENTUALLY THESE PEOPLE WILL THINK THAT THEIR ACARYA WAS SO FOOLISH THAT HE LEFT EVERYTHING UNCLEAR, THEREFORE HE PROBABLY NEVER WAS A PURE DEVOTEE BECAUSE HE MADE THIS GLARING MISTAKE ABOUT SUCCESSION OF HIS MISSION .
AND FROM THAT APARADHA, ANOTHER WILL COME AND THEN ANOTHER UNTIL FINALLY THAT PERSON WILL CONCLUDE THAT THE ACARYAS ARE ORDINARY PEOPLE AND CLEAR THEIR PATH TO HELL. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY THINK THAT THERE ARE NO PURE DEVOTEES AND THAT GOD PROBABLY REALLY DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE HOW COULD A JUST GOD DO THIS TO US?? OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT... WHO KNOWS HOW OR WHAT THEY THINK BECASUE ALL WE GET IS SPECULATION ENDLESSLY.
By purposefully sidestepping the succession issue, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s final instruction was for a cooperative effort. This was also the case with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers were left with the same dilemma faced by Srila Prabhupada’s GBC. Both GBC's (1937 - 1977) had to ponder the question of whether they should simply revert back to the traditional process of allowing disciples to assume diksa guru responsibilities, or work together to come up with a practical alternative that would maintain the momentum within the surcharged mission established by a shaktavesa avatara. Common sense and historical memory indicates that taking the traditional direction would likely cause the Acarya’s organization to self-destruct, which they both undoubtedly did.
DEAR READERS JUST SEE THE ABOVE UNDERLINED DOUBTS ROCANA EXPRESSES AGAIN IN HIS WRITING--DOUBTING AGAIN AND AGAIN SRILA PRABHUPADAS OWN WORDS. AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO SUCH A DOUBTING SOUL??? ONE OF THE REASONS I JOINED THIS KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT SO MANY YEARS AGO WAS THAT THERE WERE SO MANY GOOD ANSWERS TO ALL MY DOUBTS.
IF ONE HAS A MAJOR DOUBT LIKE THIS ONE, IT MEANS THAT PERSON IS NOT KRSNA CONSCIOUS, PERIOD. IF ONE SURRENDERS EVEN PARTIALLY TO KRSNA ALL HIS DOUBTS ABOUT THE BASICS OF KC WILL BE ANSWERED, WHAT TO SPEAK OF FULL SURRENDER.
The GBC is supposedly the official philosophical representative of ISKCON. In Bhakti Caru's "Guru Asraya" report we find the following statement, "Now that Srila Prabhupada is no longer physically present, those who truly take shelter of Srila Prabhupada are those who take shelter of his servants". Throughout this 15 page report there is no definite instruction on developing a direct relationship with Srila Prabhupada or taking shelter of him, what to speak of declaring him be the Sampradaya Acarya. Rather, the GBC’s "guru asraya" states, "Nonetheless, to fulfill the ongoing needs of spiritual life, a disciple of a fallen guru, should try to develop a sincere relationship with an advanced devotee and receive his mercy". In conclusion, the paper suggests, "Devotees should take shelter of the representatives of Srila Prabhupada, who are in the current link of the disciplic succession."
In Nectar of Instruction, Text 5, we read:
"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of Uttama-Adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava, or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform, can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore, a disciple should be careful to accept an Uttama-Adhikari as a spiritual master."
WELL IT SEEMS ROCANA CAN QUOTE SOME SASTRA BUT HE DOESN’T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.
HE HAS THE RIGHT QUOTE BUT UNFORTUNATLEY DOESNT KNOW HOW TO APPLY IT TO OUR SITUATION. YES ISKCON HAS MADE A HUGE MESS IN EVERYBODYS LIVES, AND WE ALL KNOW, AT LEAST MOST OF US, THAT THE ISKGURUS ARE NOT REALLY BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTERS, BUT HOW DOES ONE REALLY TAKE THE DIRECT SHELTER OF A MAHA BHAGAVAT SUCH AS SRILA PRABHUPADA?? THAT POINT, THE REAL POINT ROCANA STILL DOES NOT UNDERSTAND AND IT IS OBVIOUS FROM THIS QUOTE HE SUPPLIES. ON THE ONE HAND HE ADMITS THE GURUS IN ISKCON ARE NOT REALLY GURUS, BUT HE QUOTES THAT ONE SHOULD TAKE SHELTER FROM A MAHA BHAGAVAT SUCH AS SRILA PRABHUPADA BUT PLEASE DONT TAKE INITIATION FROM HIM THRU HIS RITVIK REPRESENTATIVES!! WHY NOT? SIMPLY BECAUSE ROCANA CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW REAL SPIRITUALITY WORKS. HE CAN SET UP A COMPLICATED INSTRUMENT SUCH AS A WEBSITE BUT HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE SUBTLETIES OF SPIRIT WORKS. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UNDERSTANDING SPIRIT AND UNDERSTANDING MATTER. HOW CAN A PERSON WHO HAS PHYSICALLY LEFT YOUR EYESIGHT NOW TAKE DISCIPLES?? THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION THAT ROCANA DOESNT UNDERSTAND. TO BE BRIEF I WILL JUST SAY HOW CAN LORD NARAYANA PUT AN ELEPHANT THRU THE EYE OF A NEEDLE? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ROCANA ?? WHERE OR HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVE THIS TRUTH OR TATTVA??
The historical record shows that within a few months of the Acarya’s disappearance, the elite amongst the senior disciples conspired to form the notorious Zonal Acarya fellowship. The first task executed under their calculated plan was to capture the minds and hearts of ISKCON’s grassroots followers, which were exclusively reposed in Srila Prabhupada.
In order to accomplish this goal, they went about undermining the prevailing “myth” of Srila Prabhupada being a nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acarya. Their diabolical plan called for propaganda that simultaneously elevated the eleven imitator’s spiritual image while at the same time deflating the all-pervading exalted conception of Srila Prabhupada.
WRONG AGAIN ROCANA. THESE FOOLISH PEOPLE DIDNT EVEN KNOW AT THE TIME THEY WERE MINIMIZING SRILA PRABHUPADA-JUST AS YOU DONT KNOW YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING RIGHT NOW BY SAYING NOBODY CAN TAKE DIRECT SHELTER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.!! THEIR INTELLIGENCE WAS AND STILL IS COVERED BY MAYA DEVI JUST AS YOURS IS AT PRESENT BY YOUR NONSENSE IDEAS.
To accomplish this goal, they made absurd claims within their published papers, saying they had received divine benedictions anointing them with instant “kripa-siddha” Acarya status
SOUND TO ME LIKE YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING. YOU HAVE SOME SPECIAL INSIGHT INTO THIS MYSTERY THAT NONE OF US HAVE YET TO FIGURE OUT??
.Next they diverted copious BBT funds towards the creation of the voluminous “Lilamrita”, which immortalizes their spurious “human” conception of Srila Prabhupada, degrading his transcendental pastimes into mundane events.
WELL, I WILL GRANT YOU THIS ONE-THIS ONE YOU GOT RIGHT, SO YOUR GRADE IS AN F+( PLUS).. BUT YOU STILL HAVE FAILED MISERABLY..
Tragically, these intrigues temporarily accomplished the Zonals' desired objectives. Despite Lord Krsna’s exposing and deposing most of these infamous Zonal conspirators, the Lilamrita remains unchallenged to this day, carrying on the embodiment of their fallacious conception of Srila Prabhupada
NO IT HASNT BEEN UNCHALLENGED, YASODA NANDAN HAS WRITTEN A CORRECT REPLY TO IT AND SOME OTHER DEVOTESS HAVE AS WELL. IT IS ON OUR WEBSITE AS WELL--IF YOU EVER TOOK THE TIME TO READ IT. I HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO READ YOUR PAPER, WHY DONT YOU READ OURS??
The Succession Controversy
Today, all the warring camps that have spawned from the original, pre-samadhi ISKCON share a common hypothesis, which is that before departing, Srila Prabhupada ordered us/GBC to implement a specified process pertaining to future initiations in ISKCON. In my opinion, this supposition is incorrect. Srila Prabhupada followed in his Spiritual Master’s footsteps and proposed that the focus of worship be on the Sampradaya Acarya.
YES HE SAID TO WORSHIP HIM AS SAMPRADAYA ACARYA BUT HOW ABOUT NEW BHAKTAS TO BE INITIATED? YOU ARE SAYING HE DID NOT IMPLEMENT ANY "SPECIFIED PROCESS" FOR THIS TO HAPPEN?? THIS IS LUNACY !! WHERE DOES HE EVER SAY THAT? THIS IS TOTAL NONSENSE SPECULATION . ROCANA GIVES AS EVIDENCE FOR THIS INCOMPLETE IDEA (TO ONLY WORSHIP THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA-WITH NOBODY GETTING INITIATED) A FEW QUOTES RANDOMLY SCATTERED IN THE BOOKS TO VALIDATE THIS IDEA?
INSTEAD OF THE EASILY ACCESIBLE JULY 9TH LETTER, MAY 28TH CONVERSATION,THE WILL, NUMEROUS LETTERS HE WROTE ABOUT TO CONTINUE AS RITVIKS, AND A WHOLE ARRAY OF PURPORTS IN ALL HIS BOOKS ABOUT GURU TATTVA. THIS RIDICULOUS IDEA FROM ROCANA IS THE SAME THING THEY CALL "MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL" !!!
This irresolvable controversy centers on the existence - or absence - of proof positive. To date, no unequivocal evidence of Srila Prabhupada’s official authorization has come to light approving his senior disciples' assumption of the responsibilities of diksa initiation.... what to speak of their absurd title, “Zonal Acarya”. The same problem holds true for the Rtvik proponents, who have no proof positive in support of their conclusions. All parties are relying on interpretations of the very same vague statements and institutional documents, while coming to diametrically opposing conclusions - which indicates just how inconclusive the "proof" actually is.
CANT SEE THE FOREST OR THE TREES--THIS IS ROCANS UNDERSTANDING. IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF DOUBTING THOMAS IN CHRISTIAN HISTORY WHO WOULDNT AND COULDNT BELIEVE ANYTHING UNLESS CHRIST WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM-WHICH JESUS DID DO LATER FOR HIM. AND HE FELT LIKE A TOTAL FOOL FOR HIS LACK OF FAITH IN JESUS. UNFORTUNATELY FOR ROCANA, PRABHUPADA IS NOT GOING TO APPEAR TO HIM TO SETTLE HIS DOUBTS. HE HAS LEFT THAT UNFORTUNATE TASK TO US GODBROTHERS TO TRY TO KNOCK SOME SENSE INTO HIS STUBBORN HEAD. ONE WHO HAS COMPLETE FAITH IN GOD AND GURU ALL THE IMPORTS [ AT LEAST THE SIMPLE ONES LIKE SUCCESSION ] OF VEDIC WISDOM ARE IMPARTED TO HIM.
It appears to me that no irrefutable document or statement has yet been found or is likely to be found, hidden away within Srila Prabhupada’s archive. After twenty years of futile research, exponents have had to resort to concocting a meaning from the now famous July 9th letter, preceded by the May 28th room conversation. When challenged on their dubious documentation, most Rtviks ultimately resort to the conspiracy theory.
WE HAVE PRODUCED A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE PERTAINING TO THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC, AND ROCANA CANNOT SEE ANY OF IT. I THINK THE MAN IS BLIND.
Neither ISKCON, the Gaudiya Matha nor the Rtviks entertain the notion that Srila Prabhupada might simply have followed in the footsteps of his spiritual master, asking that we cooperate and await the next Sampradaya Acarya. Yet considering their elevated spiritual status and pre-determined missions, it seems logical that nitya-siddha shaktavesa avatars would depart in just such an untraditional manner.
FOR A GURU TO FOLLOW IN HIS GURUS FOOTSTEPS IS NOT DEPENDENT UPON OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDINGS. ON NOV 2ND 1977 PRABHUPADA STATED IN HINDI TO HIS DISCIPLES AND SOME HINDUS PRESENT THAT AFTER HIM ONLY CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU COULD TAKE HIS PLACE. WHETHER ANOTHER ACARYA APPEARS OR NOT IS NOT THE REAL PROBLEM WE DISCIPLES HAVE BEFORE US AT PRESENT. WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO WAIT TO BE "SAVED' BY AN UPCOMING STAR ATTRACTION OF KRSNA CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU.
PRABHUPADA TOLD US WHAT TO DO-RIGHT NOW-ITS ALL THERE IN THE CONVERSATIONS BOOKS, TAPES, AND HIS LETTERS, AND HIS WILL. HE DID NOT LEAVE IT UNCLEAR AND IT'S ONLY UNCLEAR IN THOSE WHOSE MINDS ARE NOT CLEARLY KRSNA CONSCIOUS. THIS ARTICLE DOES NOT ATTEMPT TO REHASH THOSE PROOFS.
The ill-conceived notion that all diksa initiations within ISKCON should be carried out by Rtvik priests representing the departed Srila Prabhupada is inconsistent with all of his teachings, all sastra, all predecessor Acaryas, all sampradayas, and all Vedic and Pancaratrika tradition. This conception will lead to a digression from pure Vaisnava philosophy into religiosity.
IF YOU WANT TO HEAR WHAT A MADMAN SOUNDS LIKE THEN PLEASE RE READ WHAT ROCANA JUST SAID THEN GO TELL THIS IDEA OF HIS TO PRESENT DAY CHRISTIANS AND TELL THEM THEY CANNOT HAVE SPIRITUAL ACCESS TO THEIR ACARYA JESUS CHRIST. 'YOU CHRISTIANS CANNOT HAVE ANY CONTACT OR MERCY FROM JESUS BECAUSE HE DID NOT LEAVE ANYBODY (AND NOBODY CAME LATER EITHER) TO TAKE OVER HIS MISSION '. THIS SO CALLED "IDEA', PRABHUPADA REFUTED VERY NICELY IN HIS OCT 10,1968 CONVERSATION IN SEATTLE WITH NUMEROUS DISCIPLES REGARDING THE SO CALLED NEED FOR A PHYSICALLY LIVING GURU AND THE FACT ALSO THAT ANYBODY TODAY WHO WANTED TO FOLLOW JESUS, AND GO BACK TO GODHEAD, COULD DO SO IF HE JUST FOLLOWED THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AS TAUGHT BY HIS LOCAL PRIEST (RITVIK). IN ACTUAL FACT WHAT THESE TEACHINGS DO LEAD TO- IS FAITH IN GODS APPOINTED ACARYAS. AND ON THE CONTRARY BY NOT FOLLOWING THEM , WHICH IS WHAT ROCANA PROPOSES , THAT WILL LEAD TO MUNDANE RELIGIOSITY BY INSTITIONALIZING THE TEACHINGS AND THEN SAYING THAT NOBODY CAN GET THE MERCY OF GOD OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE UNLESS AND UNTIL THEY GO THRU THEIR CHURCH.
THIS EXACT SAME CONCEPT IS WHAT THE REAL ACARYAS CONSTANTLY HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST-THE MONEY CHANGERS, THE SMARTAS, THE TRADITIONALISTS WHO SAY YOU MUST PAY ME MONEY AT MY TEMPLE OR CHURCH OR GOD WILL NOT GIVE YOU ANYTHING.
The concept of recognizing and immortalizing the Sampradaya Acarya is commendable. Expanding this vision into post-samadhi diksa unnecessarily complicates the Sampradaya Acarya notion. For all the reasons listed above, this idea becomes a lightning rod for those who wish to relegate Srila Prabhupada to normalcy for their own envious reasons.
HOW DOES THE DESIRE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA WANTING TO ACCEPT FUTURE DISCIPLES COMPLICATE HIS GREATNESS AND MERCY? ITS ONLY COMPLICATED IN YOUR LIMITED MIND. ANOTHER MAJOR FACT THAT ROCANA REALLY DOESNT UNDERSTAND IS THAT IN INDIA MANY CONTEMPORARY RAMANUJA AND MADHVA ACARYAS TODAY TELL US THAT THEIR ACARYAS, BOTH RAMANUJA AND MADHVA TODAY ACCEPT NEW DISCIPLES AND THE NEW DISCIPLES UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE IN FACT DISCIPLES OF THESE GREAT ACARYAS THRU A SIMILIAR RITVIK SYSTEM. THERE ARE MANY PAPERS ON OUR AND OTHERS WEBSITES TO PROVE THIS FACT. I GUESS ROCANA ONLY READS HIS OWN WEBSITE MATERIAL AND NOBODY ELSES.
The Rtvik manifesto, "The Final Order", appears to be modeled on the western Judeo/Christian model of organized religion. Srila Prabhupada is transformed into a Christ-like personality who, in absentia, is supposedly willing and able to forgive all the sins of those who are baptized/initiated. Rtviks are, after all, priests by definition.
THE FINAL ORDER IS NOT THE ONLY PAPER THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN . THERE ARE MANY MANY OTHERS WHICH HAVE EXPLAINED THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT VERY NICELY. AND PRABHUPADA IS CHRIST LIKE SINCE THEY ARE BOTH PURE DEVOTEES OF THE LORD, AND HE LIKE CHRIST WILL ACCEPT DISCIPLES INTO THE FUTURE-PROVIDED THEY FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS. UNFORTUNATELY THE MORE WE HEAR WHAT ROCANA WRITES THE MORE HE REMINDS US OF CERTAIN BIBLICAL CHARACTERS THAT JESUS HAD TO DEAL WITH ALSO. WE WONT MENTION ANY NAMES.
Organizations like the IRM are establishing procedures for Rtvik initiation that will likely evolve over time in ways that create even greater similarity to the western model. The West Coast Rtviks have absorbed the “poisoning of Srila Prabhupada” conclusion into their depiction of Sampradaya history. The result engenders a similarity to the persecution and crucifixion of the Biblical Christ. Religions tend to promote sentimentally dramatized stories over and above disseminating spiritual philosophy.
HERE AGAIN ROCANA SHOWS HIS POOR FUND OF KNOWLEDGE. ANYONE WHO HAS TAKEN THE TIME TO READ BOTH BOOKS ABOUT THE POISONING OF SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT HE WAS POISONED BY HIS CLOSEST FOLLOWERS. ITS IRONIC TOO THAT ONCE ROCANA GAVE ME A CD HE MADE ON THIS VERY TOPIC WHICH HE BELIEVED TO BE TRUE-AT THAT TIME ANYWAY. SINCE WHEN IS IT SENTIMENTAL TO FEEL BADLY THAT CERTAIN DEMONIAC PERSONS CRUCIFIED JESUS CHRIST?? HAVE YOU NO FEELING OR SHAME MAN? THE RITVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATIONS IS NOT BUILT UPON THIS SAD STORY AT ALL, BUT IS BASED UPON THE WORDS OF SRILA PRBHUPADA AND ROCANA IS TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE SOME FANATICS HAVE BUILT SENTIMENTALITY INTO THE ORDER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
The very supposition of Rtvik-ism, as described by its proponents, depends upon an institutional context for its implementation. While the IRM began in an institutional setting, the West Coast Rtviks have not yet explained how their process will function outside the institution. Who decides which personalities are qualified to perform the Rtvik priestly functions? What are the priest’s responsibilities before and after initiation? So many questions have been put forth but remain unanswered. Promoting the Sampradaya Acarya vision of Srila Prabhupada is so much more digestible.
YES THE RITVIK SYSTEM IS INTENDED TO BE PART OF THE ISKCON INSTITUTION FOUNDED BY HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA PRABHUPADA. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN SOMEONE CANNOT BE INITIATED ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA IF NO INSTITUTIONAL TEMPLE IS NEARBY. WHOEVER IS CLOSEST AND IS FOLLOWING THE ACARYA CAN DO RITVIK INITIATIONS. PRABHUPADA ANSWERED ONE INTERVIEWER WHEN ASKED WHO WAS THE NEXT SUCCESSOR-HE SAID WE HAVE NO SUCH THING AS 'HERE IS THE NEXT LEADER'- ALL MY DISCIPLES WILL BE LEADERS, PROVIDED THEY FOLLOW. THEY WILL COME AND THERE WILL BE HUNDREDS..." THE ORDER OF THE GURU IS MEANT FOR ALL TO OBEY AND FOLLOW AND IT DOES NOT DEPEND UPON SOME STICKS AND STONES TO BE IMPLEMENTED. THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY THAT THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA IS TO BE WORSHIPED-BY FOLLOWING HIS DIRECT ORDERS AND NOT ANYONES CONCOCTIONS.
ISKCON leaders are also into sentimentalism as opposed to philosophy. Many have written autobiographies that tell unverifiable pastime stories involving their relationship with Srila Prabhupada. Many Bhagavatam classes morph into story-telling sessions wherein the speaker puts a little more shine on their public image.
Srila Prabhupada’s absolute spiritual position as Sampradaya Acarya is never philosophically presented. Instead, he is depicted in the manner of the speaker’s mental conception.
YADA YADA YADA, WE ALREADY KNOW THIS...
Srila Prabhupada introduced Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s GBC administrative model into ISKCON. This organizational model not only served an obvious practical function, more importantly it acknowledged the potency of empowering siksa gurus directly representing the Sampradaya Acarya within an institutional framework
RIGHT-- RITVIKS (SIKSA GURUS) WERE TO CONTINUE THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYAS DESIRES.
In an institutional scenario, Srila Prabhupada wove the successful western institutional model with the traditional Sampradaya Acarya system. In retrospect, we can see that ISKCON was a far cry from a traditional guru/disciple scenario.
WRONG-EVERYTHING WAS THE SAME-THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT THE MAJORITY OF DISCIPLES NEVER SAW OR MET PRABHUPADA. PRABHUPADA KEPT INTACT ALL IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES OF A GURU DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP.
Srila Prabhupada's "rtvik" or proxy initiation program was also based on the principle of the Sampradaya Acarya empowering the localized siksa gurus. His proxy program involved entrusting the local leaders to recruit and train, then recommend eligible candidates to Srila Prabhupada for diksa initiation.
After Srila Prabhupada formally approved them, he permitted Temple Presidents , sanyasis, or GBC to perform the agni-hotra ceremony. In fact, the now-famous July 9th letter officially authorizes the eleven regional GBC/"Rtviks" the responsibility to choose spiritual names, chant on japa beads and Brahmin threads. These activities are in adherence with the Vedic definition of a Rtvik priest. The institution's regional Rtviks performed a needed function on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, but they were not fulfilling the responsibilities of siksa guru to the same degree as the Temple Authorities .
THE FIRST PART OF THIS IS CORRECT , THE LAST PART WHICH IS UNDERLINED IS INCORRECT.THE RITVIKS WHOM PRABHUPADA HAS ALREADY APPOINTED AS LEADERS, WERE ALREADY PREACHING ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD. THAT WAS WHY THEY WERE DOING THE RITVIK INITIATIONS. IT WAS ONLY LATER, WHEN THE JULY 9TH LETTER CAME OUT THAT EVERYBODY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE-RITVIKS-BUT THEY JUST DIDNT KNOW THE TITLE UNTIL THAT LETTER OF JULY 9TH APPEARED.THE GBC'S AND SANNYASIS WERE SUPPOSED TO TRAVEL AND PREACH AND SEE THAT ALL THE PRINCIPLES WERE BEING FOLLOWED AND THINGS WERE GOING ON THE WAY SRILA PRABHUPADA WANTED. WHEN THEY CAME, THEY GAVE CLASSES AND MET WITH ALL THE DEVOTEES AND ENLIVENED THEM. HOW IS THIS NOT BEING A SIKSA GURU FOR YOUR DIKSA GURU? THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT THE TRAVELING LEADERS SAW THE LOCAL DEVOTESS ONLY OCCASIONALLY WHEREAS THE TEMPLE PRESIDENTS SAW THE DEVOTEES DAILY.
In pre-samadhi ISKCON, the siksa gurus were most often found within the ranks of the grassroots -- they were recruiters, trainers, and preachers at the temple level.
Temple leaders and sanyasis, (not the GBC or "Rtviks") recommended candidates and afterwards engaged Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. As such, they played a more traditional guru role and met more closely the sastric definition of "siksa gurus".
FIRST OF ALL PRABHUPADA, BEING A SAMPRADAYA ACARYA IS ALWAYS IN SAMADHI-THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRE OR POST SAMADHI-THIS IS ANOTHER CONCOCTION. SIKSA GURU MEANS ANYBODY WHO IS TELLING SOMEONE ELSE ABOUT KRSNA. PRABHUPADA ONCE MENTIONED LITTLE SARASVATI, DAUGHTER OF SHYMASUNDARA THAT SHE WAS A GURU (SIKSA GURU) BECAUSE SHE TOLD EVERYBODY THAT KRSNA WAS GOD. HERE ROCANA IS MAKING A DISTINCTION WHICH IS UNECESSARY AND ONLY CAUSES FRICTION AMONG DEVOTEES. ANY DEVOTEE, LIVING IN A TEMPLE OR NOT, IF HE IS TELLING ANYBODY ABOUT KRSNA, HE IS A SIKSA GURU. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS TEMPLE POSITION .
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura introduced the relevance, significance and importance of the siksa guru as a bonafide initiator into our Sampradaya. His own brother, Lalita prasad, sided with the representatives of traditional diksa lines that traced their linage clear back to the Caitanya Lila. These "Goswami lineage" successions claimed that initiation through them was the only possible way to link to Lord Caitanya’s Sampradaya. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati dismissed this self-serving concept, stating that regardless of one's spiritual genealogy, the prerequisite qualifications for successfully linking up to the Sampradaya are achieved wholly and solely upon the genuine advancement in Krsna consciousness by contacting a genuine Sampradaya Acarya. As such, he included Jagannatha dasa Babaji and Gaura Kisora das Babaji as qualified members of the Sampradaya, and he excluded all the established diksa lines who traced themselves back to the Caitanya Mahaprabhu lila period.
CORRECT--AND THIS CONTACT / OR INITIATION WITH THE CURRENT SAMPRADAYA ACARYA IS DONE SIMPLY BY ACCEPTING THE CONCLUSIONS OF THAT SAMPRADAYA ACARYA-THIS IS CALLED DISCIPLIC SUCESSION. SRILA PRABHUPADA STATED THAT HE CONSIDERED HIS FIRST MEETING WITH BHAKTISIDDHANTA MAHARAJ HIS INITIATION SINCE HE TOTALLY ACCEPTED HIM AND EVERYTHING HE SAID. THAT HE CONSIDERED HIS REAL INITIATION AND THEN 11 YEARS LATER HE GOT FORMALLY INITIATED. BUT THAT FIRST MEETING WAS THE REAL INITIATION BECAUSE HE HEARD THE PARAM PARA TEACHINGS FROM HIS GURU AND ACCEPTED THEM.
Creating a worldwide network of siksa gurus helps to prevent the transgression away from the Sampradaya Acarya’s transcendental spiritual movement into another world religion. This doesn’t just apply to western style over-institutionalization, but also to reverting back to the traditional diksa linage. In Kali Yuga, diksa guru ashrams are essentially an Indian cultural format for decentralized religiosity
A WORLDWIDE NETWORK OF RITVIK SIKSA GURUS IS WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA INTENDED. HE TOLD US ONCE THAT HE WAS THE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER AND WE (HIS DISCIPLES) WERE THE INSTRUCTING SPIRITUAL MASTERS. AND THAT THIS WAS NOT JUST A TITLE, BUT HAD TO BE EARNED BY EACH DISCIPLE.
Individually, we all now stand at the crossroads of Vaisnava history. The Sampradaya Acaryas' spiritual movements have all been diverted down the slippery slope towards organized religion. The litany of persuasive arguments woven together with sastric sophistry, institutional rationalizations, and relationship psychology has replaced pure siddhanta.
The underlying motivation of the leadership is to eclipse and/or minimize the Sampradaya Acarya, replacing him with a less-than perfect personality or oligarchy such as the GBC
THE HARE KRSNA SOCIETY AND AFFILIATED DEVOTEES HAVE PUBLISHED A BOOK ENTITLED SRILA PRABHUPADA SIDDHANTA. THIS SHORT BOOK WAS THE ENDEAVOR OF MANY, AND BLESSED EQUALLY BY MANY OF PRABHUPADAS SENIOR MEN. IT CONTAINS ENTIRELY THE SUBSTANCE OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUS PHILOSOPHY. THERE IS NO WORD JUGGLERY IN THIS BOOK SINCE IT IS ALMOST 100% THE WORDS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. THEREFORE THERE IS NO WIGGLE ROOM, NO SPECULATION, AND NO ERROR. IT IS TOTALLY PRABHUPADA KATHA. THIS BOOKS SHOULD BE READ BY EVERY HARE KRSNA DEVOTEE.
Some well-known examples of the under-valuation of the Sampradaya Acarya are:
• the GBC decree that only their approved representatives are via media to Srila Prabhupada;
• the proposal that B.V. Narayana Maharaj is the next Sampradaya Acarya;
• Rtvik-ism, with approved priests performing post-samadhi proxy diksa; and
• changing the Sampradaya Acarya's transcendental literatures under the guise of improving them.
NUMBERS ONE TWO AND FOUR ARE CORRECT, BUT NUMBER THREE- IS TOTALLY WRONG
Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosityIn a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality. The current guru-tattva positions deceive us into thinking the diksa/acarya, organizational elite or the Rtvik group-think have some measure of exclusive control over the transcendental knowledge offered by the Sampradaya Acaryas. The Absolute Truth clearly states that no living entity or worldly institution can claim to have controlling power over the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If the Caitya guru/Lord of the Heart chooses to benedict the sincere seeker with admission to the secrets of the Sampradaya, there is no restriction -- not even by protocol such as “only through diksa initiation".
IN ACTUAL FACT IF ANYONE ALIGNS HIMSELF WITH SRILA PRABHUPADA AS PER HIS INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE FUTURE OF HIS MOVEMENT HIS SPIRITUALITY IS INTACT. THIS ALIGNMENT OF OUR CONSIOUSNESS WITH PRABHUPADAS DIRECTIVES REGARDING GURU TATTVA IS TO BE FOUND COMPLETELY DESCRIBED IN OUR BOOK SRILA PRABHUPADA SIDDHANTA. ANYONE WHO READS IT WITH OPEN HEART AND MIND WILL BE ILLUMINATED FROM WITHIN BY CAITYA GURU.
In a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality. The current guru-tattva positions deceive us into thinking the diksa/acarya, organizational elite or the Rtvik group-think have some measure of exclusive control over the transcendental knowledge offered by the Sampradaya Acaryas.
The Absolute Truth clearly states that no living entity or worldly institution can claim to have controlling power over the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If the Caitya guru/Lord of the Heart chooses to benedict the sincere seeker with admission to the secrets of the Sampradaya, there is no restriction -- not even by protocol such as “only through diksa initiation".
IF ONE IS ACTUALLY IN A RELIGIOUS SETTING HE WILL BE ALLOWED TO INQUIRE SINCERELY. WE HAVE NEVER SAID HE HAS TO STOP THIS INQUIRY- BUT IN FACT IT SHOULD GO ON MORE SO.IF ONE CAREFULLY LISTENS TO ALL THE DIFFERENT PARTIES WRITINGS, JUST LIKE IF ONE LISTENS TO THE RITVIK DEBATE TALKS BACK IN SAN DIEGO IN 1991, ANYONE WHO IS THE LEAST BIT HONEST WILL HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT THE DEVOTEES WHO REPRESENTATED THE SO CALLED RITVIK SIDE WERE VASTLY FAR MORE INFORMED AND ADVANCED IN CONSCIOUSNESS THAN THEIR ADVERSARIES WHO REPRESENTED THE ISKCON GURU CLUB. THIS WAS AN HISTORICAL EVENT. AND ALL WHO PARTICIPATED AGREED AND WANTED THIS GURU TATTVA DISCUSSION TO CONTINUE. BUT UNFORTUNATLEY ISKCON BANNED THIS TAPE AND THAT WAS IT FOR THAT IDEA OF ONGOING SPIRITUAL DISCUSSIONS WITHIN ISKCON. THE IRONY HERE IS THAT ROCANA REFUSES TO ADMIT OPPOSING DISCUSSION ON HIS WEBSITE, AND MANY HAVE TRIED AND BEEN REFUSED BY ROCANA TO PUBLISH THEIR IDEAS ON HIS WEBSITE. THEREFORE WE HAVE RESORTED TO THIS TACTIC OF REFUTING HIS MAIN SEMINAL ARTICLE ON THIS TOPIC-THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA PAPER HERE IN THIS FORMAT.
ROCANA HAS SAID THAT HE THINKS ISKCON BANGALORE IS SUCESSFUL DUE TO THEIR GOOD MANAGEMENT. THIS IS ALSO INCORRECT. PRABHUPADA TELLS US THAT DUE TO GOOD PREACHING- GOOD MANAGEMENT FOLLOWS. BECAUSE ISKCON BANGALORE HAS AGREED TO FOLLOW THE RITVIK SYSTEM , KEEPING THE ACARYA ONLY IN THE CENTER OF THEIR LIVES THEY HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH UNIMAGINABLE SUCCESSES. ONE CAN HAVE SO CALLED "GOOD MANAGEMENT", JUST LIKE ISKCON HAS SENT ITS MANAGERS TO KARMI SEMINARS FOR THIS SAME IDEA, BUT LOOK HOW ISKCON HAS TURNED OUT. BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE CORRECT SIDDHANTA OR UNDERSTANDINGS OUR SPIRITUAL MASTER HAS GIVEN TO US, THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY. EVERY YEAR THEY COME UP WITH NEW CONCOCTIONS ALL OF WHICH FAIL.
THEREFORE IT BEHOOVES US ALL TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE TRUTHS WHICH SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS CLEARLY GIVEN TO US ALL IN THE FORM OF HIS BOOKS AND INSTRUCTIONS AND THEN IMPLEMENT THEM INTO OUR DAILY LIVES. WE WILL BE HAPPY MATERIALLY AND ENRICHED SPIRITUALLY. OF THIS THERE IS NO DOUBT.
HARE KRSNA
DAMAHGOSA DAS
HARE KRSNA SOCIETY
In response to Rochon Prabhus The Bangalore Drama and Sampradaya Acharya.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-11/editorials7322.htm
“Better to be in maya thinking one’s self a disciple of Srila Prabhupada than to be a disciple of someone in maya.”
Hasti Gopala Dasa
So Rochon Prabhu considers as we know from his article that accepting Srila Prabhupada as one's diksa guru en masse or as a single person is a bad idea especially if their is a fire sacrifice involved. Better to "keep Srila Prabhupada at the centre" This is an old cliche used by ISKCON themselves to cause people to steer away from what is really meant by the term and to conclude automatically that the authorities must know what they are talking about. What we'd like to know from Sampradaya Sun is the exact in detail understanding of what is meant by "keeping Srila Prabhupada at the centre", not just in some temples but in our little homes and offices.
Please explain for the benefit of the whole world so that they may not entertain the "bad idea" of accepting Srila Prabhupada as one's diksa guru. Ritvikism is a con term never used by Srila Prabhupada and is not a Vedic term. It is invented, the proper term is simply Ritvik first used by Tamal Krsna on May 28th 1977 and confirmed as a system by Srila Prabhupada, it came about as a result of a conversation initiated by the GBC in 1977 so Rochon Prabhu would have you disregard that conversation regardless of the fact that his spiritual master answered to the inquiries made to him by the GBC..so strike the conversation...ok done.
Next! The July 9th, 1977 letter which came about as a result of the conversation in which the founder acharya and Krsna spoke must also be discarded by everyone because it stems from the disregarded May 28th 1977 conversation.
For as many reasons as scholar devotees can dig up from changed and original satsra from Srila Prabhupada’s books they will try to explain the reasons for deleting the May 28th conversation and the attending post conversation July 9th letter. ...oh, and by the way only Srila Prabhupada’s original books can be used to qualify their opinions otherwise one is stepping over and out of Srila Prabhupada’s jurisdiction. That's ok though if you don't plan on having him at the centre of your life or if you are a GBC, ISKCON guru follower or from some other sect.
See reference from Rochon Prabhus article below.
"In addition to the fact that they have simply, and very successfully kept Srila Prabhupada at the center in Bangalore, their success has also seemed to be a result of the kshatriya or king-like leadership of Madhu Pandit das. He is no doubt a brilliant and dedicated devotee. We were surprised, therefore, to hear the bad news that Madhu Pandit had recently orchestrated and performed a mass Rtvik initiation in Bangalore. As far as I understand it, this was the first time an official institutional procedure like this has been conducted by Bangalore."
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Madhu Pundit Prabhu has been doing exactly what Rochon Prabhu says he has not been doing, where is the evidence of not promoting a siksa environment, where has he not been giving Srila Prabhupada full recognition as being the Sampradaya Acharya. One thing he has not been doing, he has not been selectively disregarding Srila Prabhupada’s authority by telling people directly or indirectly what of Srila Prabhupada’s and Krsna’s words and historic instructions must be followed or not followed. "Simply follow Srila Prabhupada" means to live by his example in the same manner that Srila Prabhupada followed his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Swami Prabhupada which means accepting the orders and being obedient to Srila Prabhupada. Madu Pundit Prabhu has set an exemplary example of that himself and others have followed. Srila Prabhupada was accused by his God brothers of the very same accusation by Rochon Prabhu to Madhu Pundit Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada institutionalised a programme that put emphasis on Diksa based on Sastra that was and is accepted by his spiritual master and Krsna. Otherwise Srila Prabhupada would not have done it. Therefore Madhu Pundit Prabhu is showing uncommon valour beyond the call any leader to keep Srila Prabhupada where he desires to be kept, for the people.
See reference to Rochon Prabhu’s article below.
"We are left to wonder why it is that for so many years prior, Madhu Pandit das had been doing what I have suggested in my presentation – essentially promoting a Siksa environment, giving Srila Prabhupada full recognition as being a Sampradaya Acarya, and encouraging devotees to simply follow him, without institutionalizing a program that puts undue emphasis on diksa, while at the same time accepting the sastric basis for diksa."
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No, because he adopted Srila Prabhupada’s positions, Rochon Prabhu for all his dedication to Srila Prabhupada assumes that anyone following Srila Prabhupada’s instruction and obedience must be lacking some personal initiative. Learning from those who already know is the most universal of laws. Srila Prabhupada knows what is to be done and is continually teaching his dedicated disciples to this day, at least those who are still listening. Madhu Pundit prabhus official position is that of a disciple of Srila Prabhupada he has no other official position to promote. That's promotion enough. Srila Prabhupada does not need to be taught Rochon Prabhus philosophical perspective.
See reference to Rochon Prabhu’s article below.
"Unfortunately, for all the success he was getting in Bangalore over the years by practically employing just such a program, Madhu Pandit obviously did not adopt my philosophical perspective, or promote it as his own official position."
As we will see below in the next segment Rochon Prabhu does not refer to the new devotees of Srila Prabhupada at Bangalore as much as devotees but as "Ritiviks". Not even given the benefit of the doubt as if they are considered blind idiots who know nothing about Srila Prabhupada, his history or his works. That somehow Madhu Pundit has used them for his own political gain indicating indirectly that Madhu Pundit has now produced a number of simple pawns in a politico religious board game. Samefull!
Those new initiates are to be considered on equal terms as any of Srila Prabhupada senior devotees, they know what is meant by ISKCON and they know they are a large part of ISKCON...they are learned and dedicated enough to know their new responsibilities that lay ahead of them. They will never feel alienated or outside. They have no interest in being considered by anyone other than Srila Prabhupada and Krsna, anyone else's opinion of them has no impact at all. They will be maintaining the philosophy of Srila Prabhupada and the position as his disciples.
Notice no where in the referenced paragraph below does Rochon Prabhu have the dignity to refer to them as disciples or even devotees. So who is the political impersonal motivator in this paragraph?
See here also from the quoted piece below..."the GBC/ISKCON and their representatives in Mumbai, who will now be faced with taking over a temple filled with all these Rtviks." "these Ritivks" Cleverly labelling these most dedicated devotees not as anyone devoted to Srila Prabhupad at all. Of course damming with faint praise can seem to exit anyone from a highly offensive diatribe and old history lesson.
The referenced piece from Rochon Prabhu’s article.
"Personally, I think the recent mass Rtvik initiation ceremony in Bangalore was a political tactic employed by Madhu Pandit das to create a large block of individuals initiated via Rtvik diksa. If and when the new GBC-deputed leaders arrive in Bangalore, they will be faced with hundreds of inimical devotees who, after the Rtvik initiation ceremony, will now be even more alienated than before. Their new 'initiated' status will separate and delineate them as being devotees who are 'outside' of ISKCON. They won't be considered 'in good standing' in ISKCON while they maintain the philosophy and position as Rtvik-initiates. That alone will represent a huge manpower drain for any new leaders arriving in Bangalore.
So the timing of this mass initiation event is very suspect, occurring as it did just weeks before the High Court handed down its decision. It seems to be an obvious ploy to further thwart the GBC/ISKCON and their representatives in Mumbai, who will now be faced with taking over a temple filled with all these Rtviks. We can assume that many of these devotees were well trained, and have been helping to maintain Bangalore's elaborate Deity worship, preaching programs, and other aspects of temple management, all of which are reported to be very professionally organized."
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Finally: Below we will show reference to Rochon Prabhus Sampradaya Acharya philosophy as responded to by Damagosh Prabhu but never posted on Sampradaya Sun. If Rochon Prabhu believes as much in his approach as he says he does then Damagosh Prabhus response is indicative of why Madhu Pundit Prabhu never took up his philosophy...Madhu Pundit Prabhu continues to only take up Srila Prabhupadas philosophy.
Madhu Pundit Prabhu accepts nothing but Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, he has no need to try to cement anything. It is not the undoing of Bangalore as Rochon Prabhu predicts it is the undoing of nonsense.
"Unfortunately, for all the success he was getting in Bangalore over the years by practically employing just such a program, Madhu Pandit obviously did not adopt my philosophical perspective, or promote it as his own official position. I believe history will prove me right in my belief that the recent Rtvik initiations in Bangalore and Madhu Pandit prabhu's failure to adopt the Sampradaya Acarya philosophy, instead cementing his acceptance of Rtvik-vada, will stand as a part of Bangalore's undoing."
"Better to be in maya thinking one self as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada then to be a disciple of someone in maya"
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Damagosh Prabhu's response to Rochons Sampradaya Acharya posted below.
Hare Krsna To All
Pranams
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
One of our ongoing problems with presenting the ritvik idea which Srila Prabhupada desired for the future of his iskcon movement is that most of our adversaries will not print our replies or rebuttals to their nonsense ideas on this topic. Therefore in this following article I have directly posted Rocana's main article on this subject (The Sampradaya Acarya) in which he feels he has defeated all is opponents and established his own conclusion or Siddhanta for how iskcon and the greater Hare Krsna Movement can continue in the near future. Let us now proceed with his article and my comments upon it.
Rocana das of the Sampradaya Sun writes....
.."We also reject the GBC/ISKCON version of guru-tattva, but we do not believe that Rtvik-vada is any more siddhantically sound or bona fide. Both are asiddhantic deviations, and neither can be supported by Guru, Sadhu, Sastra. So we again urge devotees who are rejecting either or both of these positions to carefully consider the Sampradaya Acarya position, which we believe is a viable and sastrically supported approach to diksa initiations in Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON"...
So I went to his position paper on his website,to find out exactly what he thinks is the "future for iskcon regarding initiations in particular and here below is what he says --along with my comments...
Damaghosa das
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MY COMMENTS IN CAPS BELOW / ROCANA'S COMMENTS IN RED
I HAVE CUT AND PASTED HERE BELOW THE RELEVANT POINTS ROCANA WRITES IN HIS POSITION PAPER THE "SAMPRADAYA ACARYA." BECAUSE ITS FAR TOO LONG TO PUT THE WHOLE THING IN THIS ARTICLE. BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF HIS PAPER IS HERE REPRESENTED BELOW.
Rocana das writes..."All the previous acaryas in the disciplic succession are pure devotees or uttama-adhikaris. A new devotee should utilize his intelligence and accept a spiritual master on this same platform as acaryas such as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas
YES ALL PRABHUPADANUGAS OR WHAT YOU CALL "RITVIKS'', WOULD AGREE HERE.
Non-realization of the identity of the prominent Sampradaya Acarya is surely unfortunate, offensive, and has disastrous ramifications. It is my belief that this is the root cause of the dissolving of the two successive Sampradaya Acarya's preaching missions.
AND YET MANY DEVOTEES (LEADERS INCLUDED) DID AND DO RECOGNIZE SRILA PRABHUPADA AS A SAMPRADAYA ACARYA AND YET WILL STILL NOT ACCEPT HIS CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS. ROCANA DAS IS ONE IN PARTICULAR. SO SEEING HIM OR NOT SEEING HIM AS A MAHABHAGAVAT IS NOT THE REAL REASON BOTH MISSIONS FELL APART. PRABHUPADA MENTIONS IN HIS PURPORTS THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEVATAS AND ASURAS, IS THAT BOTH RECOGNIZE THAT VISHNU IS GOD, BUT ONLY THE DEVAS FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS, WHEREAS THE ASURAS WILL NEVER FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS.THIS IS THE REAL REASON THE MISSIONS FELL APART. IT IS ALSO THE SAME REASON SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL THAT WE HAVE A "MATERIAL WORLD." TO NOT FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS OF GOD OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE MEANS ONE IS ENVIOUS OF THOSE INSTRUCTIONS AND THINKS HE OR SHE KNOWS BETTER.
"The Brahma disciplic line is the path recognized by all the followers of Lord Caitanya. This information has been obtained in accordance with the evidence of the book 'Gaura Ganodesa Dipika' of Srila Kavikarnapura, written in proper sequence and has been verified by Srila Vidyabhusana. One who does not accept this succession is definitely the foremost enemy of the Gaudiya Vaishnavites
WE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU HERE BECAUSE WE ACCEPT WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA WROTE FOR THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION IN HIS BHAGAVAD GITA AS IT IS.
"If we embrace this perception of Srila Prabhupada as the third in a succession of nitya-siddhas (Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode) sent directly by Lord Caitanya, there is hope of pushing forward his divine mission despite the physical absence of a manifest nitya-siddha Acarya.
AFTER NAROTAMMA DAS THAKURS TIME THERE WAS A PHYSICAL GAP OF A HUNDRED YEARS OR MORE, BEFORE SRILA VISVANATHA THAKUR CAME, THE NEXT IN LINE, YET STILL THE MOVEMENT WAS GOING ON, THE PREACHING WAS STILL THERE BECAUSE THE CORRECT SIDDHANTA WAS THERE. A PHYSICALLY PRESENT OR NOT PRESENT ACARYA WAS NOT IMPORTANT. WHY DO YOU AND SO MANY OTHERS IGNORE THIS VALID AND HIGHLY IMPORTANT POINT?
I feel it is imperative that this vision of the successive appearance of the three nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acaryas be enshired as a core belief in order for any Gaudiya Vaisnava preaching association to be successful. An accurate mission statement should attempt to embody the mood, mission and philosophical teachings of these divine personalities. From this time on, these three Sampradaya Acaryas should be included on the list of Sampradaya Acaryas presented by Srila Prabhupada.
WHY FOCUS ONLY ON THE LAST 3 ACARYAS AND NOT ALL OF THE PRECEDING ACARAYAS ? HOW CAN YOU SAY ONLY THE LAST THREE SHOULD BE ENSHRINED?
IF ALL OF THEM WERE NOT "ENSHRINEABLE", THEN THEY WOULD NOT BE IN OUR DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. YOUR SPIRITUAL VISION IS MYOPIC AND NOT INCLUSIVE OF THE ENTIRE PARAM PARA . HOW WOULD NARADA, OR VYASA DEV FEEL ABOUT THIS "ONLY THREE ACARYAS" SO CALLED SPIRITUAL VISION?
Defining the spiritual status of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and disciples in relationship to the Sampradaya Acaryas is the essence of the problem before us today.
THIS IS INCORRECT. WHAT IS THE ESSENCE OF THE PROBLEM IS DISOBEDIENCE TO THE WORDS AND INSTRUCTIONS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
How many souls assembled on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra appreciated that Arjuna’s chariot driver was God? Lord Caitanya refused to hear mention of his true identity as an incarnation of the Lord. Our Sampradaya Acaryas have mercifully given us their complete vision and deep understanding of The Supreme Personality of Godhead’s pastimes. Yet few seem to realize that the same principle applies to the appearance of the nitya-siddha, shaktavesa avatara Sampradaya Acaryas.
YOU SEEM TO FORGET THAT IN MAHABHARAT IT WAS TO DURYODHANA THAT KRSNA SHOWED HIS UNIVERSAL FORM, AND ONE WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT TO CONVINCE HIM. HE WANTED A KINGDOM SO BAD HE COULD TASTE IT, DESPITE THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. SAME THINGS HAPPENED WITH THE ISKCON SO CALLED LEADERS WHO WANTED IT ALL AND DIDNT GIVE A DAMN WHAT THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER TOLD THEM TO DO. IT ALL COMES DOWN AGAIN TO DISOBEDIENCE TO THE ORDER OF GURU.
ANOTHER POINT IN YOUR ABOVE PARAGRAPH --IT SEEMS YOU THINK YOU NOW HAVE A "COMPLETE VISION AND DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF KRSNA AND HIS PURE DEVOTEE?" THAT SO CALLED "VISION" IS RESERVED ONLY FOR MAHA BHAGAVATS OR PURE DEVOTEES, FOR ONLY A PURE DEVOTEE CAN UNDERSTAND THE BEHAVIOR OF ANOTHER PURE DEVOTEE CORRECTLY.
Srila Prabhupada made it abundantly clear that he considers his Spiritual Master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and his divine father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, to be Sampradaya Acaryas sent by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All objective evidence points to the fact that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada is situated on the same spiritual platform. Yet from all our established contemporary Vaisnava communities, particularly the Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, we don’t find a commitment to this perspective. I’m not speaking of flowery, sentimental depictions, but of philosophically formulated “creeds” that all members are sworn to uphold.
YOU WILL FIND ON THE HARE KRSNA SOCIETY WEBPAGE A COMPLETE DESCRIPTION OF THE ACTUAL POSITION OF A SAMPRADAYA ACARYA SUCH AS SRILA PRABHUPADA.
They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection."
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 08-16-76, Bombay
YES- SO WHY DONT YOU DO THIS, ROCANA?
"Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation."
Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila 12.9 Purport
YOUR CONCOCTIONS ABOUT HOW INITIATIONS SHOULD GO ON IN THE FUTURE ARE OPINIONS DIFFERENT THAT YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL MASTER SRILA PRABHUPADA. THEREFORE YOUR "OPINIONS" ARE DEVIATIONS WHICH MAKES YOUR THINKING USELESS.--- HEY, I DIDN'T SAY THIS, PRABHUPADA DID !!
AS A SIDE NOTE, WHEN DID PRABHUPADA IN HIS LAST DAYS, THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES FOR FINAL INSTRUCTIONS,SAY WE SHOULD JUST WORSHIP THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA AND NOT CONDUCT INITIATIONS AT ALL OR WAIT FOR A MAHA BHAGAVAT TO APPEAR? HE NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THINGS AT ALL. AGAIN MORE OF YOUR CONCOCTIONS. WHAT HE DID SAY ABOUT INITIATING ON HIS BEHALF WE DO KNOW HE SAID AND WENT ON FOR SOME TIME ABOUT IT.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati requested the appointment of a GBC to maintain the preaching mission upon his departure, but he was silent as to the appointment of a successor Acarya.
WRONG AGAIN ROCANA--SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA MAHARAJ SAID TO CONDUCT THE MISSION OF THE GAUDIYA MATHA CONJOINTLY WITH THEIR GBC AND AMONGST THEM AN ACARYA WOULD EMERGE. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THIS INSTRUCTION TOO?
History has repeatedly demonstrated that both Acaryas placed the burden of responsibility squarely upon their respective GBC appointees, without precise instructions as to how their tasks should be accomplished.
BZZZT-WRONG ANSWER AGAIN ROCANA--BOTH ACARYAS, BOTH PRABHUPADAS GAVE EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS, ONE TELLING ALL THE GAUDIYA MATHA MEMBERS TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THEIR GBC'S IN CHARGE, AND OUR SRILA PRABHUPADA GAVE DETAILED WRITTEN AND VERBAL INSTRUCTIONS THAT A RITVIK SYSTEM (WHICH WAS ALREADY GOING ON FOR ABOUT 5 YEARS) WAS HIS DESIRE FOR THE FUTURE OF ISKCON. BUT NEITHER GROUPS LEADERS FOLLOWED THEIR GURU. HOW CAN YOU SAY THESE GREAT SAMPRADAYA ACARYAS (AS YOU CALL THEM YOURSELF) LEFT THEIR MISSION WITHOUT PRECISE INSTRUCTIONS FOR THEIR FUTURE? THEY EACH LEFT VOLUMES OF TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE OF INSTRUCTIONS AND THIS POINT THE "REAL POINT" THEY LEFT UNCLEAR???? GIMME A BREAK...
The onus was on them to come to the proper conclusion that their guru was much more than a “regular” spiritual master, but was rather a rare Sampradaya Acarya. As such, the normal course of events did not apply. During his lila, Lord Caitanya choose not to provide a nitya-siddha, maha-bhagavata, parampara-Acarya to replace him.
A BONA FIDE GURU COMES AND TAKES CHAOS AND TURNS IT INTO ORDER AND WHEN HE LEAVES HE WANTS CHAOS TO RETURN BY LEAVING EVERYTHING UP TO HIS NEOPHYTE DISCIPLES-TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR THEMSELVES?? THIS IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND SO CALLED LOGIC?
I FIND THIS HARD TO BELIEVE AND SAD TO HEAR THAT MAYA DEVI HAS SO CAPTURED SO MANY OF MY GODBROTHERS INTELLIGENCE THAT THIS IS THE BEST IDEA THEY CAN COME UP WITH?? OUR MAHA BHAGAVAT PURE DEVOTEE SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE DEMIGODS, GURU OF THE UNIVERSE LEAVES HIS MISSION UP TO SOME CHARLATANS MASQUERADING AS VAISNAVAS???? I DONT THINK SO.
AND ANOTHER SIDE POINT HE SAYS LORD GAURANGA DIDN'T LEAVE ANYBODY IN CHARGE AFTER HE LEFT?? SO GOD COMES HIMSELF AND THEN JUST LEAVES IT ALL UP TO--- WHATEVER?? SOUNDS TO ME LIKE "THERE IS NOBODY IN CHARGE OF THE UNIVERSE IDEOLOGY" COMING FROM ROCANS FERTILE IMAGINATIONS. HE SAYS--THERE IS NO STANDARD CLEAR PATH GIVEN BY THE ACARYA- GOD LEAVES THE PURSUIT OF DHARMA TO ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY TO MAKE IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG. BY SAYING THE "ACARYA LEAVES NO CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS' MEANS IN OTHER WORDS, EITHER THE ACARYA IS FOOLISH FOR DOING SO,( WHICH THEY ARE NOT), OR THE DISCIPLE IS JUST SO FOOLISH HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS THAT HIS OWN GURU MAHARAJ GAVE TO HIM, SO HE CONCOCTS SOMETHING INSTEAD. THIS IS IN FACT WHAT IT MEANS. THE SO CALLED DISCIPLES ARE FOOLS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR GURU HAS TOLD THEM. SOME DISCIPLES CAN UNDERSTAND AND SOME CANNOT. FOR THE ONES WHO DO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER SO CALLED DISCIPLES MAKE VAIKUNTHA- NOW HELL ON EARTH..
ONE SHOULD SEE HOW THIS FOOLISH MENTALITY CAN LEAD TO ATHEISIM. HOW IS THAT? THESE PERSONS ARE "THINKING" THAT BOTH SRILA PRABHUPADA'S LEFT THEIR MISSION UP TO THEIR DISCIPLES TO FIGURE OUT BY THEMSELVES SINCE THE ACARYAS LEFT THE MISSION'S SUCCESSION UNCLEAR !! ACTUALLY NEITHER OF THEM LEFT IT UNCLEAR BUT IT WAS UNCLEAR IN ONLY A FEW DISCIPLES MINDS. SO IN THOSE FOGGY BRAINS, EVENTUALLY THESE PEOPLE WILL THINK THAT THEIR ACARYA WAS SO FOOLISH THAT HE LEFT EVERYTHING UNCLEAR, THEREFORE HE PROBABLY NEVER WAS A PURE DEVOTEE BECAUSE HE MADE THIS GLARING MISTAKE ABOUT SUCCESSION OF HIS MISSION .
AND FROM THAT APARADHA, ANOTHER WILL COME AND THEN ANOTHER UNTIL FINALLY THAT PERSON WILL CONCLUDE THAT THE ACARYAS ARE ORDINARY PEOPLE AND CLEAR THEIR PATH TO HELL. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY THINK THAT THERE ARE NO PURE DEVOTEES AND THAT GOD PROBABLY REALLY DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE HOW COULD A JUST GOD DO THIS TO US?? OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT... WHO KNOWS HOW OR WHAT THEY THINK BECASUE ALL WE GET IS SPECULATION ENDLESSLY.
By purposefully sidestepping the succession issue, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s final instruction was for a cooperative effort. This was also the case with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers were left with the same dilemma faced by Srila Prabhupada’s GBC. Both GBC's (1937 - 1977) had to ponder the question of whether they should simply revert back to the traditional process of allowing disciples to assume diksa guru responsibilities, or work together to come up with a practical alternative that would maintain the momentum within the surcharged mission established by a shaktavesa avatara. Common sense and historical memory indicates that taking the traditional direction would likely cause the Acarya’s organization to self-destruct, which they both undoubtedly did.
DEAR READERS JUST SEE THE ABOVE UNDERLINED DOUBTS ROCANA EXPRESSES AGAIN IN HIS WRITING--DOUBTING AGAIN AND AGAIN SRILA PRABHUPADAS OWN WORDS. AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO SUCH A DOUBTING SOUL??? ONE OF THE REASONS I JOINED THIS KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT SO MANY YEARS AGO WAS THAT THERE WERE SO MANY GOOD ANSWERS TO ALL MY DOUBTS.
IF ONE HAS A MAJOR DOUBT LIKE THIS ONE, IT MEANS THAT PERSON IS NOT KRSNA CONSCIOUS, PERIOD. IF ONE SURRENDERS EVEN PARTIALLY TO KRSNA ALL HIS DOUBTS ABOUT THE BASICS OF KC WILL BE ANSWERED, WHAT TO SPEAK OF FULL SURRENDER.
The GBC is supposedly the official philosophical representative of ISKCON. In Bhakti Caru's "Guru Asraya" report we find the following statement, "Now that Srila Prabhupada is no longer physically present, those who truly take shelter of Srila Prabhupada are those who take shelter of his servants". Throughout this 15 page report there is no definite instruction on developing a direct relationship with Srila Prabhupada or taking shelter of him, what to speak of declaring him be the Sampradaya Acarya. Rather, the GBC’s "guru asraya" states, "Nonetheless, to fulfill the ongoing needs of spiritual life, a disciple of a fallen guru, should try to develop a sincere relationship with an advanced devotee and receive his mercy". In conclusion, the paper suggests, "Devotees should take shelter of the representatives of Srila Prabhupada, who are in the current link of the disciplic succession."
In Nectar of Instruction, Text 5, we read:
"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of Uttama-Adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava, or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform, can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore, a disciple should be careful to accept an Uttama-Adhikari as a spiritual master."
WELL IT SEEMS ROCANA CAN QUOTE SOME SASTRA BUT HE DOESN’T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.
HE HAS THE RIGHT QUOTE BUT UNFORTUNATLEY DOESNT KNOW HOW TO APPLY IT TO OUR SITUATION. YES ISKCON HAS MADE A HUGE MESS IN EVERYBODYS LIVES, AND WE ALL KNOW, AT LEAST MOST OF US, THAT THE ISKGURUS ARE NOT REALLY BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTERS, BUT HOW DOES ONE REALLY TAKE THE DIRECT SHELTER OF A MAHA BHAGAVAT SUCH AS SRILA PRABHUPADA?? THAT POINT, THE REAL POINT ROCANA STILL DOES NOT UNDERSTAND AND IT IS OBVIOUS FROM THIS QUOTE HE SUPPLIES. ON THE ONE HAND HE ADMITS THE GURUS IN ISKCON ARE NOT REALLY GURUS, BUT HE QUOTES THAT ONE SHOULD TAKE SHELTER FROM A MAHA BHAGAVAT SUCH AS SRILA PRABHUPADA BUT PLEASE DONT TAKE INITIATION FROM HIM THRU HIS RITVIK REPRESENTATIVES!! WHY NOT? SIMPLY BECAUSE ROCANA CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW REAL SPIRITUALITY WORKS. HE CAN SET UP A COMPLICATED INSTRUMENT SUCH AS A WEBSITE BUT HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE SUBTLETIES OF SPIRIT WORKS. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UNDERSTANDING SPIRIT AND UNDERSTANDING MATTER. HOW CAN A PERSON WHO HAS PHYSICALLY LEFT YOUR EYESIGHT NOW TAKE DISCIPLES?? THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION THAT ROCANA DOESNT UNDERSTAND. TO BE BRIEF I WILL JUST SAY HOW CAN LORD NARAYANA PUT AN ELEPHANT THRU THE EYE OF A NEEDLE? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ROCANA ?? WHERE OR HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVE THIS TRUTH OR TATTVA??
The historical record shows that within a few months of the Acarya’s disappearance, the elite amongst the senior disciples conspired to form the notorious Zonal Acarya fellowship. The first task executed under their calculated plan was to capture the minds and hearts of ISKCON’s grassroots followers, which were exclusively reposed in Srila Prabhupada.
In order to accomplish this goal, they went about undermining the prevailing “myth” of Srila Prabhupada being a nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acarya. Their diabolical plan called for propaganda that simultaneously elevated the eleven imitator’s spiritual image while at the same time deflating the all-pervading exalted conception of Srila Prabhupada.
WRONG AGAIN ROCANA. THESE FOOLISH PEOPLE DIDNT EVEN KNOW AT THE TIME THEY WERE MINIMIZING SRILA PRABHUPADA-JUST AS YOU DONT KNOW YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING RIGHT NOW BY SAYING NOBODY CAN TAKE DIRECT SHELTER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.!! THEIR INTELLIGENCE WAS AND STILL IS COVERED BY MAYA DEVI JUST AS YOURS IS AT PRESENT BY YOUR NONSENSE IDEAS.
To accomplish this goal, they made absurd claims within their published papers, saying they had received divine benedictions anointing them with instant “kripa-siddha” Acarya status
SOUND TO ME LIKE YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING. YOU HAVE SOME SPECIAL INSIGHT INTO THIS MYSTERY THAT NONE OF US HAVE YET TO FIGURE OUT??
.Next they diverted copious BBT funds towards the creation of the voluminous “Lilamrita”, which immortalizes their spurious “human” conception of Srila Prabhupada, degrading his transcendental pastimes into mundane events.
WELL, I WILL GRANT YOU THIS ONE-THIS ONE YOU GOT RIGHT, SO YOUR GRADE IS AN F+( PLUS).. BUT YOU STILL HAVE FAILED MISERABLY..
Tragically, these intrigues temporarily accomplished the Zonals' desired objectives. Despite Lord Krsna’s exposing and deposing most of these infamous Zonal conspirators, the Lilamrita remains unchallenged to this day, carrying on the embodiment of their fallacious conception of Srila Prabhupada
NO IT HASNT BEEN UNCHALLENGED, YASODA NANDAN HAS WRITTEN A CORRECT REPLY TO IT AND SOME OTHER DEVOTESS HAVE AS WELL. IT IS ON OUR WEBSITE AS WELL--IF YOU EVER TOOK THE TIME TO READ IT. I HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO READ YOUR PAPER, WHY DONT YOU READ OURS??
The Succession Controversy
Today, all the warring camps that have spawned from the original, pre-samadhi ISKCON share a common hypothesis, which is that before departing, Srila Prabhupada ordered us/GBC to implement a specified process pertaining to future initiations in ISKCON. In my opinion, this supposition is incorrect. Srila Prabhupada followed in his Spiritual Master’s footsteps and proposed that the focus of worship be on the Sampradaya Acarya.
YES HE SAID TO WORSHIP HIM AS SAMPRADAYA ACARYA BUT HOW ABOUT NEW BHAKTAS TO BE INITIATED? YOU ARE SAYING HE DID NOT IMPLEMENT ANY "SPECIFIED PROCESS" FOR THIS TO HAPPEN?? THIS IS LUNACY !! WHERE DOES HE EVER SAY THAT? THIS IS TOTAL NONSENSE SPECULATION . ROCANA GIVES AS EVIDENCE FOR THIS INCOMPLETE IDEA (TO ONLY WORSHIP THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA-WITH NOBODY GETTING INITIATED) A FEW QUOTES RANDOMLY SCATTERED IN THE BOOKS TO VALIDATE THIS IDEA?
INSTEAD OF THE EASILY ACCESIBLE JULY 9TH LETTER, MAY 28TH CONVERSATION,THE WILL, NUMEROUS LETTERS HE WROTE ABOUT TO CONTINUE AS RITVIKS, AND A WHOLE ARRAY OF PURPORTS IN ALL HIS BOOKS ABOUT GURU TATTVA. THIS RIDICULOUS IDEA FROM ROCANA IS THE SAME THING THEY CALL "MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL" !!!
This irresolvable controversy centers on the existence - or absence - of proof positive. To date, no unequivocal evidence of Srila Prabhupada’s official authorization has come to light approving his senior disciples' assumption of the responsibilities of diksa initiation.... what to speak of their absurd title, “Zonal Acarya”. The same problem holds true for the Rtvik proponents, who have no proof positive in support of their conclusions. All parties are relying on interpretations of the very same vague statements and institutional documents, while coming to diametrically opposing conclusions - which indicates just how inconclusive the "proof" actually is.
CANT SEE THE FOREST OR THE TREES--THIS IS ROCANS UNDERSTANDING. IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF DOUBTING THOMAS IN CHRISTIAN HISTORY WHO WOULDNT AND COULDNT BELIEVE ANYTHING UNLESS CHRIST WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM-WHICH JESUS DID DO LATER FOR HIM. AND HE FELT LIKE A TOTAL FOOL FOR HIS LACK OF FAITH IN JESUS. UNFORTUNATELY FOR ROCANA, PRABHUPADA IS NOT GOING TO APPEAR TO HIM TO SETTLE HIS DOUBTS. HE HAS LEFT THAT UNFORTUNATE TASK TO US GODBROTHERS TO TRY TO KNOCK SOME SENSE INTO HIS STUBBORN HEAD. ONE WHO HAS COMPLETE FAITH IN GOD AND GURU ALL THE IMPORTS [ AT LEAST THE SIMPLE ONES LIKE SUCCESSION ] OF VEDIC WISDOM ARE IMPARTED TO HIM.
It appears to me that no irrefutable document or statement has yet been found or is likely to be found, hidden away within Srila Prabhupada’s archive. After twenty years of futile research, exponents have had to resort to concocting a meaning from the now famous July 9th letter, preceded by the May 28th room conversation. When challenged on their dubious documentation, most Rtviks ultimately resort to the conspiracy theory.
WE HAVE PRODUCED A MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE PERTAINING TO THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC, AND ROCANA CANNOT SEE ANY OF IT. I THINK THE MAN IS BLIND.
Neither ISKCON, the Gaudiya Matha nor the Rtviks entertain the notion that Srila Prabhupada might simply have followed in the footsteps of his spiritual master, asking that we cooperate and await the next Sampradaya Acarya. Yet considering their elevated spiritual status and pre-determined missions, it seems logical that nitya-siddha shaktavesa avatars would depart in just such an untraditional manner.
FOR A GURU TO FOLLOW IN HIS GURUS FOOTSTEPS IS NOT DEPENDENT UPON OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDINGS. ON NOV 2ND 1977 PRABHUPADA STATED IN HINDI TO HIS DISCIPLES AND SOME HINDUS PRESENT THAT AFTER HIM ONLY CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU COULD TAKE HIS PLACE. WHETHER ANOTHER ACARYA APPEARS OR NOT IS NOT THE REAL PROBLEM WE DISCIPLES HAVE BEFORE US AT PRESENT. WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO WAIT TO BE "SAVED' BY AN UPCOMING STAR ATTRACTION OF KRSNA CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU.
PRABHUPADA TOLD US WHAT TO DO-RIGHT NOW-ITS ALL THERE IN THE CONVERSATIONS BOOKS, TAPES, AND HIS LETTERS, AND HIS WILL. HE DID NOT LEAVE IT UNCLEAR AND IT'S ONLY UNCLEAR IN THOSE WHOSE MINDS ARE NOT CLEARLY KRSNA CONSCIOUS. THIS ARTICLE DOES NOT ATTEMPT TO REHASH THOSE PROOFS.
The ill-conceived notion that all diksa initiations within ISKCON should be carried out by Rtvik priests representing the departed Srila Prabhupada is inconsistent with all of his teachings, all sastra, all predecessor Acaryas, all sampradayas, and all Vedic and Pancaratrika tradition. This conception will lead to a digression from pure Vaisnava philosophy into religiosity.
IF YOU WANT TO HEAR WHAT A MADMAN SOUNDS LIKE THEN PLEASE RE READ WHAT ROCANA JUST SAID THEN GO TELL THIS IDEA OF HIS TO PRESENT DAY CHRISTIANS AND TELL THEM THEY CANNOT HAVE SPIRITUAL ACCESS TO THEIR ACARYA JESUS CHRIST. 'YOU CHRISTIANS CANNOT HAVE ANY CONTACT OR MERCY FROM JESUS BECAUSE HE DID NOT LEAVE ANYBODY (AND NOBODY CAME LATER EITHER) TO TAKE OVER HIS MISSION '. THIS SO CALLED "IDEA', PRABHUPADA REFUTED VERY NICELY IN HIS OCT 10,1968 CONVERSATION IN SEATTLE WITH NUMEROUS DISCIPLES REGARDING THE SO CALLED NEED FOR A PHYSICALLY LIVING GURU AND THE FACT ALSO THAT ANYBODY TODAY WHO WANTED TO FOLLOW JESUS, AND GO BACK TO GODHEAD, COULD DO SO IF HE JUST FOLLOWED THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AS TAUGHT BY HIS LOCAL PRIEST (RITVIK). IN ACTUAL FACT WHAT THESE TEACHINGS DO LEAD TO- IS FAITH IN GODS APPOINTED ACARYAS. AND ON THE CONTRARY BY NOT FOLLOWING THEM , WHICH IS WHAT ROCANA PROPOSES , THAT WILL LEAD TO MUNDANE RELIGIOSITY BY INSTITIONALIZING THE TEACHINGS AND THEN SAYING THAT NOBODY CAN GET THE MERCY OF GOD OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE UNLESS AND UNTIL THEY GO THRU THEIR CHURCH.
THIS EXACT SAME CONCEPT IS WHAT THE REAL ACARYAS CONSTANTLY HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST-THE MONEY CHANGERS, THE SMARTAS, THE TRADITIONALISTS WHO SAY YOU MUST PAY ME MONEY AT MY TEMPLE OR CHURCH OR GOD WILL NOT GIVE YOU ANYTHING.
The concept of recognizing and immortalizing the Sampradaya Acarya is commendable. Expanding this vision into post-samadhi diksa unnecessarily complicates the Sampradaya Acarya notion. For all the reasons listed above, this idea becomes a lightning rod for those who wish to relegate Srila Prabhupada to normalcy for their own envious reasons.
HOW DOES THE DESIRE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA WANTING TO ACCEPT FUTURE DISCIPLES COMPLICATE HIS GREATNESS AND MERCY? ITS ONLY COMPLICATED IN YOUR LIMITED MIND. ANOTHER MAJOR FACT THAT ROCANA REALLY DOESNT UNDERSTAND IS THAT IN INDIA MANY CONTEMPORARY RAMANUJA AND MADHVA ACARYAS TODAY TELL US THAT THEIR ACARYAS, BOTH RAMANUJA AND MADHVA TODAY ACCEPT NEW DISCIPLES AND THE NEW DISCIPLES UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE IN FACT DISCIPLES OF THESE GREAT ACARYAS THRU A SIMILIAR RITVIK SYSTEM. THERE ARE MANY PAPERS ON OUR AND OTHERS WEBSITES TO PROVE THIS FACT. I GUESS ROCANA ONLY READS HIS OWN WEBSITE MATERIAL AND NOBODY ELSES.
The Rtvik manifesto, "The Final Order", appears to be modeled on the western Judeo/Christian model of organized religion. Srila Prabhupada is transformed into a Christ-like personality who, in absentia, is supposedly willing and able to forgive all the sins of those who are baptized/initiated. Rtviks are, after all, priests by definition.
THE FINAL ORDER IS NOT THE ONLY PAPER THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN . THERE ARE MANY MANY OTHERS WHICH HAVE EXPLAINED THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT VERY NICELY. AND PRABHUPADA IS CHRIST LIKE SINCE THEY ARE BOTH PURE DEVOTEES OF THE LORD, AND HE LIKE CHRIST WILL ACCEPT DISCIPLES INTO THE FUTURE-PROVIDED THEY FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS. UNFORTUNATELY THE MORE WE HEAR WHAT ROCANA WRITES THE MORE HE REMINDS US OF CERTAIN BIBLICAL CHARACTERS THAT JESUS HAD TO DEAL WITH ALSO. WE WONT MENTION ANY NAMES.
Organizations like the IRM are establishing procedures for Rtvik initiation that will likely evolve over time in ways that create even greater similarity to the western model. The West Coast Rtviks have absorbed the “poisoning of Srila Prabhupada” conclusion into their depiction of Sampradaya history. The result engenders a similarity to the persecution and crucifixion of the Biblical Christ. Religions tend to promote sentimentally dramatized stories over and above disseminating spiritual philosophy.
HERE AGAIN ROCANA SHOWS HIS POOR FUND OF KNOWLEDGE. ANYONE WHO HAS TAKEN THE TIME TO READ BOTH BOOKS ABOUT THE POISONING OF SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT HE WAS POISONED BY HIS CLOSEST FOLLOWERS. ITS IRONIC TOO THAT ONCE ROCANA GAVE ME A CD HE MADE ON THIS VERY TOPIC WHICH HE BELIEVED TO BE TRUE-AT THAT TIME ANYWAY. SINCE WHEN IS IT SENTIMENTAL TO FEEL BADLY THAT CERTAIN DEMONIAC PERSONS CRUCIFIED JESUS CHRIST?? HAVE YOU NO FEELING OR SHAME MAN? THE RITVIK SYSTEM OF INITIATIONS IS NOT BUILT UPON THIS SAD STORY AT ALL, BUT IS BASED UPON THE WORDS OF SRILA PRBHUPADA AND ROCANA IS TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE SOME FANATICS HAVE BUILT SENTIMENTALITY INTO THE ORDER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
The very supposition of Rtvik-ism, as described by its proponents, depends upon an institutional context for its implementation. While the IRM began in an institutional setting, the West Coast Rtviks have not yet explained how their process will function outside the institution. Who decides which personalities are qualified to perform the Rtvik priestly functions? What are the priest’s responsibilities before and after initiation? So many questions have been put forth but remain unanswered. Promoting the Sampradaya Acarya vision of Srila Prabhupada is so much more digestible.
YES THE RITVIK SYSTEM IS INTENDED TO BE PART OF THE ISKCON INSTITUTION FOUNDED BY HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA PRABHUPADA. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN SOMEONE CANNOT BE INITIATED ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA IF NO INSTITUTIONAL TEMPLE IS NEARBY. WHOEVER IS CLOSEST AND IS FOLLOWING THE ACARYA CAN DO RITVIK INITIATIONS. PRABHUPADA ANSWERED ONE INTERVIEWER WHEN ASKED WHO WAS THE NEXT SUCCESSOR-HE SAID WE HAVE NO SUCH THING AS 'HERE IS THE NEXT LEADER'- ALL MY DISCIPLES WILL BE LEADERS, PROVIDED THEY FOLLOW. THEY WILL COME AND THERE WILL BE HUNDREDS..." THE ORDER OF THE GURU IS MEANT FOR ALL TO OBEY AND FOLLOW AND IT DOES NOT DEPEND UPON SOME STICKS AND STONES TO BE IMPLEMENTED. THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY THAT THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA IS TO BE WORSHIPED-BY FOLLOWING HIS DIRECT ORDERS AND NOT ANYONES CONCOCTIONS.
ISKCON leaders are also into sentimentalism as opposed to philosophy. Many have written autobiographies that tell unverifiable pastime stories involving their relationship with Srila Prabhupada. Many Bhagavatam classes morph into story-telling sessions wherein the speaker puts a little more shine on their public image.
Srila Prabhupada’s absolute spiritual position as Sampradaya Acarya is never philosophically presented. Instead, he is depicted in the manner of the speaker’s mental conception.
YADA YADA YADA, WE ALREADY KNOW THIS...
Srila Prabhupada introduced Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s GBC administrative model into ISKCON. This organizational model not only served an obvious practical function, more importantly it acknowledged the potency of empowering siksa gurus directly representing the Sampradaya Acarya within an institutional framework
RIGHT-- RITVIKS (SIKSA GURUS) WERE TO CONTINUE THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYAS DESIRES.
In an institutional scenario, Srila Prabhupada wove the successful western institutional model with the traditional Sampradaya Acarya system. In retrospect, we can see that ISKCON was a far cry from a traditional guru/disciple scenario.
WRONG-EVERYTHING WAS THE SAME-THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT THE MAJORITY OF DISCIPLES NEVER SAW OR MET PRABHUPADA. PRABHUPADA KEPT INTACT ALL IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES OF A GURU DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP.
Srila Prabhupada's "rtvik" or proxy initiation program was also based on the principle of the Sampradaya Acarya empowering the localized siksa gurus. His proxy program involved entrusting the local leaders to recruit and train, then recommend eligible candidates to Srila Prabhupada for diksa initiation.
After Srila Prabhupada formally approved them, he permitted Temple Presidents , sanyasis, or GBC to perform the agni-hotra ceremony. In fact, the now-famous July 9th letter officially authorizes the eleven regional GBC/"Rtviks" the responsibility to choose spiritual names, chant on japa beads and Brahmin threads. These activities are in adherence with the Vedic definition of a Rtvik priest. The institution's regional Rtviks performed a needed function on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, but they were not fulfilling the responsibilities of siksa guru to the same degree as the Temple Authorities .
THE FIRST PART OF THIS IS CORRECT , THE LAST PART WHICH IS UNDERLINED IS INCORRECT.THE RITVIKS WHOM PRABHUPADA HAS ALREADY APPOINTED AS LEADERS, WERE ALREADY PREACHING ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD. THAT WAS WHY THEY WERE DOING THE RITVIK INITIATIONS. IT WAS ONLY LATER, WHEN THE JULY 9TH LETTER CAME OUT THAT EVERYBODY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE-RITVIKS-BUT THEY JUST DIDNT KNOW THE TITLE UNTIL THAT LETTER OF JULY 9TH APPEARED.THE GBC'S AND SANNYASIS WERE SUPPOSED TO TRAVEL AND PREACH AND SEE THAT ALL THE PRINCIPLES WERE BEING FOLLOWED AND THINGS WERE GOING ON THE WAY SRILA PRABHUPADA WANTED. WHEN THEY CAME, THEY GAVE CLASSES AND MET WITH ALL THE DEVOTEES AND ENLIVENED THEM. HOW IS THIS NOT BEING A SIKSA GURU FOR YOUR DIKSA GURU? THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT THE TRAVELING LEADERS SAW THE LOCAL DEVOTESS ONLY OCCASIONALLY WHEREAS THE TEMPLE PRESIDENTS SAW THE DEVOTEES DAILY.
In pre-samadhi ISKCON, the siksa gurus were most often found within the ranks of the grassroots -- they were recruiters, trainers, and preachers at the temple level.
Temple leaders and sanyasis, (not the GBC or "Rtviks") recommended candidates and afterwards engaged Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. As such, they played a more traditional guru role and met more closely the sastric definition of "siksa gurus".
FIRST OF ALL PRABHUPADA, BEING A SAMPRADAYA ACARYA IS ALWAYS IN SAMADHI-THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRE OR POST SAMADHI-THIS IS ANOTHER CONCOCTION. SIKSA GURU MEANS ANYBODY WHO IS TELLING SOMEONE ELSE ABOUT KRSNA. PRABHUPADA ONCE MENTIONED LITTLE SARASVATI, DAUGHTER OF SHYMASUNDARA THAT SHE WAS A GURU (SIKSA GURU) BECAUSE SHE TOLD EVERYBODY THAT KRSNA WAS GOD. HERE ROCANA IS MAKING A DISTINCTION WHICH IS UNECESSARY AND ONLY CAUSES FRICTION AMONG DEVOTEES. ANY DEVOTEE, LIVING IN A TEMPLE OR NOT, IF HE IS TELLING ANYBODY ABOUT KRSNA, HE IS A SIKSA GURU. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS TEMPLE POSITION .
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura introduced the relevance, significance and importance of the siksa guru as a bonafide initiator into our Sampradaya. His own brother, Lalita prasad, sided with the representatives of traditional diksa lines that traced their linage clear back to the Caitanya Lila. These "Goswami lineage" successions claimed that initiation through them was the only possible way to link to Lord Caitanya’s Sampradaya. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati dismissed this self-serving concept, stating that regardless of one's spiritual genealogy, the prerequisite qualifications for successfully linking up to the Sampradaya are achieved wholly and solely upon the genuine advancement in Krsna consciousness by contacting a genuine Sampradaya Acarya. As such, he included Jagannatha dasa Babaji and Gaura Kisora das Babaji as qualified members of the Sampradaya, and he excluded all the established diksa lines who traced themselves back to the Caitanya Mahaprabhu lila period.
CORRECT--AND THIS CONTACT / OR INITIATION WITH THE CURRENT SAMPRADAYA ACARYA IS DONE SIMPLY BY ACCEPTING THE CONCLUSIONS OF THAT SAMPRADAYA ACARYA-THIS IS CALLED DISCIPLIC SUCESSION. SRILA PRABHUPADA STATED THAT HE CONSIDERED HIS FIRST MEETING WITH BHAKTISIDDHANTA MAHARAJ HIS INITIATION SINCE HE TOTALLY ACCEPTED HIM AND EVERYTHING HE SAID. THAT HE CONSIDERED HIS REAL INITIATION AND THEN 11 YEARS LATER HE GOT FORMALLY INITIATED. BUT THAT FIRST MEETING WAS THE REAL INITIATION BECAUSE HE HEARD THE PARAM PARA TEACHINGS FROM HIS GURU AND ACCEPTED THEM.
Creating a worldwide network of siksa gurus helps to prevent the transgression away from the Sampradaya Acarya’s transcendental spiritual movement into another world religion. This doesn’t just apply to western style over-institutionalization, but also to reverting back to the traditional diksa linage. In Kali Yuga, diksa guru ashrams are essentially an Indian cultural format for decentralized religiosity
A WORLDWIDE NETWORK OF RITVIK SIKSA GURUS IS WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA INTENDED. HE TOLD US ONCE THAT HE WAS THE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER AND WE (HIS DISCIPLES) WERE THE INSTRUCTING SPIRITUAL MASTERS. AND THAT THIS WAS NOT JUST A TITLE, BUT HAD TO BE EARNED BY EACH DISCIPLE.
Individually, we all now stand at the crossroads of Vaisnava history. The Sampradaya Acaryas' spiritual movements have all been diverted down the slippery slope towards organized religion. The litany of persuasive arguments woven together with sastric sophistry, institutional rationalizations, and relationship psychology has replaced pure siddhanta.
The underlying motivation of the leadership is to eclipse and/or minimize the Sampradaya Acarya, replacing him with a less-than perfect personality or oligarchy such as the GBC
THE HARE KRSNA SOCIETY AND AFFILIATED DEVOTEES HAVE PUBLISHED A BOOK ENTITLED SRILA PRABHUPADA SIDDHANTA. THIS SHORT BOOK WAS THE ENDEAVOR OF MANY, AND BLESSED EQUALLY BY MANY OF PRABHUPADAS SENIOR MEN. IT CONTAINS ENTIRELY THE SUBSTANCE OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUS PHILOSOPHY. THERE IS NO WORD JUGGLERY IN THIS BOOK SINCE IT IS ALMOST 100% THE WORDS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. THEREFORE THERE IS NO WIGGLE ROOM, NO SPECULATION, AND NO ERROR. IT IS TOTALLY PRABHUPADA KATHA. THIS BOOKS SHOULD BE READ BY EVERY HARE KRSNA DEVOTEE.
Some well-known examples of the under-valuation of the Sampradaya Acarya are:
• the GBC decree that only their approved representatives are via media to Srila Prabhupada;
• the proposal that B.V. Narayana Maharaj is the next Sampradaya Acarya;
• Rtvik-ism, with approved priests performing post-samadhi proxy diksa; and
• changing the Sampradaya Acarya's transcendental literatures under the guise of improving them.
NUMBERS ONE TWO AND FOUR ARE CORRECT, BUT NUMBER THREE- IS TOTALLY WRONG
Anyone aligning themselves with today’s ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha or Rtvik groups are inadvertently contributing to an unwanted transformation from spirituality to religiosityIn a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality. The current guru-tattva positions deceive us into thinking the diksa/acarya, organizational elite or the Rtvik group-think have some measure of exclusive control over the transcendental knowledge offered by the Sampradaya Acaryas. The Absolute Truth clearly states that no living entity or worldly institution can claim to have controlling power over the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If the Caitya guru/Lord of the Heart chooses to benedict the sincere seeker with admission to the secrets of the Sampradaya, there is no restriction -- not even by protocol such as “only through diksa initiation".
IN ACTUAL FACT IF ANYONE ALIGNS HIMSELF WITH SRILA PRABHUPADA AS PER HIS INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE FUTURE OF HIS MOVEMENT HIS SPIRITUALITY IS INTACT. THIS ALIGNMENT OF OUR CONSIOUSNESS WITH PRABHUPADAS DIRECTIVES REGARDING GURU TATTVA IS TO BE FOUND COMPLETELY DESCRIBED IN OUR BOOK SRILA PRABHUPADA SIDDHANTA. ANYONE WHO READS IT WITH OPEN HEART AND MIND WILL BE ILLUMINATED FROM WITHIN BY CAITYA GURU.
In a religious setting, our spiritual advancement stagnates due to the institutional restrictions placed on inquisitive philosophical spirituality. The current guru-tattva positions deceive us into thinking the diksa/acarya, organizational elite or the Rtvik group-think have some measure of exclusive control over the transcendental knowledge offered by the Sampradaya Acaryas.
The Absolute Truth clearly states that no living entity or worldly institution can claim to have controlling power over the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If the Caitya guru/Lord of the Heart chooses to benedict the sincere seeker with admission to the secrets of the Sampradaya, there is no restriction -- not even by protocol such as “only through diksa initiation".
IF ONE IS ACTUALLY IN A RELIGIOUS SETTING HE WILL BE ALLOWED TO INQUIRE SINCERELY. WE HAVE NEVER SAID HE HAS TO STOP THIS INQUIRY- BUT IN FACT IT SHOULD GO ON MORE SO.IF ONE CAREFULLY LISTENS TO ALL THE DIFFERENT PARTIES WRITINGS, JUST LIKE IF ONE LISTENS TO THE RITVIK DEBATE TALKS BACK IN SAN DIEGO IN 1991, ANYONE WHO IS THE LEAST BIT HONEST WILL HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT THE DEVOTEES WHO REPRESENTATED THE SO CALLED RITVIK SIDE WERE VASTLY FAR MORE INFORMED AND ADVANCED IN CONSCIOUSNESS THAN THEIR ADVERSARIES WHO REPRESENTED THE ISKCON GURU CLUB. THIS WAS AN HISTORICAL EVENT. AND ALL WHO PARTICIPATED AGREED AND WANTED THIS GURU TATTVA DISCUSSION TO CONTINUE. BUT UNFORTUNATLEY ISKCON BANNED THIS TAPE AND THAT WAS IT FOR THAT IDEA OF ONGOING SPIRITUAL DISCUSSIONS WITHIN ISKCON. THE IRONY HERE IS THAT ROCANA REFUSES TO ADMIT OPPOSING DISCUSSION ON HIS WEBSITE, AND MANY HAVE TRIED AND BEEN REFUSED BY ROCANA TO PUBLISH THEIR IDEAS ON HIS WEBSITE. THEREFORE WE HAVE RESORTED TO THIS TACTIC OF REFUTING HIS MAIN SEMINAL ARTICLE ON THIS TOPIC-THE SAMPRADAYA ACARYA PAPER HERE IN THIS FORMAT.
ROCANA HAS SAID THAT HE THINKS ISKCON BANGALORE IS SUCESSFUL DUE TO THEIR GOOD MANAGEMENT. THIS IS ALSO INCORRECT. PRABHUPADA TELLS US THAT DUE TO GOOD PREACHING- GOOD MANAGEMENT FOLLOWS. BECAUSE ISKCON BANGALORE HAS AGREED TO FOLLOW THE RITVIK SYSTEM , KEEPING THE ACARYA ONLY IN THE CENTER OF THEIR LIVES THEY HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH UNIMAGINABLE SUCCESSES. ONE CAN HAVE SO CALLED "GOOD MANAGEMENT", JUST LIKE ISKCON HAS SENT ITS MANAGERS TO KARMI SEMINARS FOR THIS SAME IDEA, BUT LOOK HOW ISKCON HAS TURNED OUT. BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE CORRECT SIDDHANTA OR UNDERSTANDINGS OUR SPIRITUAL MASTER HAS GIVEN TO US, THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY. EVERY YEAR THEY COME UP WITH NEW CONCOCTIONS ALL OF WHICH FAIL.
THEREFORE IT BEHOOVES US ALL TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE TRUTHS WHICH SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS CLEARLY GIVEN TO US ALL IN THE FORM OF HIS BOOKS AND INSTRUCTIONS AND THEN IMPLEMENT THEM INTO OUR DAILY LIVES. WE WILL BE HAPPY MATERIALLY AND ENRICHED SPIRITUALLY. OF THIS THERE IS NO DOUBT.
HARE KRSNA
DAMAHGOSA DAS
HARE KRSNA SOCIETY
Thats a whole book, is there a summarization?
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