Gauragopala Dasa: Some believe once they reach Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, they will never again fall down but is that true for the jiva tattva soul? Some believe once they reach Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, they will never again fall down.
Yes this is generally true for most because they accept Krishna's promises that they will never again fall down to the material world. But are devotees correctly understanding what Krishna and sastra really means here? Yes, Krishna will ALWAYS keep His promise.
But what about "free will and the God given ability for the jiva to also choose?"
Does that exist in the Spiritual World too? Can a soul make their own independent choice too?
Or does this mean a soul has no choice once they reach Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana? To say one can never fall down is ONLY true as long as the jivatma "chooses" NOT to fall down! This is Prabhupada's point.
Prabhupada tells us you CANNOT force love on others, you cannot say, once in Vaikuntha, you will never again come to the material world to attempt to enjoy separately from Vishnu or Krishna. Frankly Krishna cannot "choose" for the jiva, the jiva MUST make that choice for themselves as the individual independent jivatma they are eternally.
If we have no ability to choose or exhibit free will, then there can be no individual expression of love. This is because for one to express REAL love and service, it MUST depends on having "free will, the ability to choose and an independent "sense of self" Because of this reasoning, I fully reject the teachings of many other sangas on this subject due to their misunderstanding of sastra, who wrongly believe when one enters the Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana), they renounce their individuality.
Actually their nonsense belief is impersonalism because they deny we are eternal persons in both the Spiritual World and material creation. They have no deep understanding of Spiritual life because they cannot understand "the choice" to stay or leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan is also with the jivas and NOT just Krishna alone, it is reciprocal.
Real love or service is based on reciprocation, it is a two way relationship never a one way slave mentality relationship. Who would want a nonsense God like that? More like a demons paradise. If one is forced to stay in someone's association then that is not love, it is force, it is rape.
This is why Prabhupada has said less than 10% of jivas do choose to leave Vishnu or Krishna's association because the Lord does NOT rule with force, He always allows choices which means there can be genuine love. Srila Prabhupada explains here -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HatiYaOljJ8
In Srimad Bhagavatam the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha is explained clearly.
This is found in the "4th Canto Chapter 28 Text 53 of Srimad Bhagavatam" where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana - ''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''.
Srila Prabhupada- "When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves [become Krishna Himself or imitate Krishna], they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world."
Stila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer — that is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body." SB 4.28.53 purport:
https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/4/28/53/
Srila Prabhupada clearly says we do not come from any inactive impersonal so called origin, we fall to there originally from Vaikuntha generally after entering the material World.
And after millions of births they seek freedom, and because the impersonalist yogi or Jnani does not know Krishna, they find impersonal liberation and temporarily enter or fall further to the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman merging their individual being into the effulgence light of Krishna's Body.
Because the soul is there in the impersonal Brahmajyoti for so, so, so long, some think it is the souls origin but it is not.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman.
Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.
When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.
So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” The Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha". New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.
Srila Prabhupada - ''By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the "nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha", to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - New York Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.
Some say nothing is guaranteed in the Spiritual World at the end of the day.
Well, it is if YOU make the right choices.
The fact is, over 90% of souls have NEVER seen the material world or even know it exists.
Why is that?
Because THEY "chose to always" serve Krishna. The fact is, only less than 10% mentioned by Prabhupada in the lecture above, "choose" to fall down and enter the material world. Over 90% choose to NEVER leave Krishna. So what does surrender and loving service to Krishna really mean?
Loving service in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan is NEVER a one sided impersonal "master and slave" relationship. No, loving service experienced by being Krishna's eternal servant, is ALWAYS a two way street, and ALWAYS an exchange of loving reciprocal emotions and actions, only then does love become real and personal.
Surrender to Krishna therefore, NEVER extinguishes one's personal "sense of self" that is eternally an independent thinking person with free will and individual identity, yet simultaneously ALWAYS fully dependent, "under these conditions of reciprocation", on Krishna too
PADA: Thanks for this video link BAP, Yes, this does look like somewhat "how the souls fall from the spiritually effulgent light of Vaikuntha to the darkness of the material world." Yes I agree, its pretty cool! The lyric's words are a little bit off, but the visuals are pretty much on point. Thanks for this, its also a good warning for us to -- not -- to make the wrong choice and try to be independent from Krishna. Yep, we fall down and land in a pot of muck, hee hee, and here we are, in the blazing fire of material existence. ys pd
Yes this is generally true for most because they accept Krishna's promises that they will never again fall down to the material world. But are devotees correctly understanding what Krishna and sastra really means here? Yes, Krishna will ALWAYS keep His promise.
But what about "free will and the God given ability for the jiva to also choose?"
Does that exist in the Spiritual World too? Can a soul make their own independent choice too?
Or does this mean a soul has no choice once they reach Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana? To say one can never fall down is ONLY true as long as the jivatma "chooses" NOT to fall down! This is Prabhupada's point.
Prabhupada tells us you CANNOT force love on others, you cannot say, once in Vaikuntha, you will never again come to the material world to attempt to enjoy separately from Vishnu or Krishna. Frankly Krishna cannot "choose" for the jiva, the jiva MUST make that choice for themselves as the individual independent jivatma they are eternally.
If we have no ability to choose or exhibit free will, then there can be no individual expression of love. This is because for one to express REAL love and service, it MUST depends on having "free will, the ability to choose and an independent "sense of self" Because of this reasoning, I fully reject the teachings of many other sangas on this subject due to their misunderstanding of sastra, who wrongly believe when one enters the Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana), they renounce their individuality.
Actually their nonsense belief is impersonalism because they deny we are eternal persons in both the Spiritual World and material creation. They have no deep understanding of Spiritual life because they cannot understand "the choice" to stay or leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan is also with the jivas and NOT just Krishna alone, it is reciprocal.
Real love or service is based on reciprocation, it is a two way relationship never a one way slave mentality relationship. Who would want a nonsense God like that? More like a demons paradise. If one is forced to stay in someone's association then that is not love, it is force, it is rape.
This is why Prabhupada has said less than 10% of jivas do choose to leave Vishnu or Krishna's association because the Lord does NOT rule with force, He always allows choices which means there can be genuine love. Srila Prabhupada explains here -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HatiYaOljJ8
In Srimad Bhagavatam the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha is explained clearly.
This is found in the "4th Canto Chapter 28 Text 53 of Srimad Bhagavatam" where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana - ''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''.
Srila Prabhupada- "When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves [become Krishna Himself or imitate Krishna], they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world."
Stila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer — that is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body." SB 4.28.53 purport:
https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/4/28/53/
Srila Prabhupada clearly says we do not come from any inactive impersonal so called origin, we fall to there originally from Vaikuntha generally after entering the material World.
And after millions of births they seek freedom, and because the impersonalist yogi or Jnani does not know Krishna, they find impersonal liberation and temporarily enter or fall further to the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman merging their individual being into the effulgence light of Krishna's Body.
Because the soul is there in the impersonal Brahmajyoti for so, so, so long, some think it is the souls origin but it is not.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman.
Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.
When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.
So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” The Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha". New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.
Srila Prabhupada - ''By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the "nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha", to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - New York Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.
Some say nothing is guaranteed in the Spiritual World at the end of the day.
Well, it is if YOU make the right choices.
The fact is, over 90% of souls have NEVER seen the material world or even know it exists.
Why is that?
Because THEY "chose to always" serve Krishna. The fact is, only less than 10% mentioned by Prabhupada in the lecture above, "choose" to fall down and enter the material world. Over 90% choose to NEVER leave Krishna. So what does surrender and loving service to Krishna really mean?
Loving service in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan is NEVER a one sided impersonal "master and slave" relationship. No, loving service experienced by being Krishna's eternal servant, is ALWAYS a two way street, and ALWAYS an exchange of loving reciprocal emotions and actions, only then does love become real and personal.
Surrender to Krishna therefore, NEVER extinguishes one's personal "sense of self" that is eternally an independent thinking person with free will and individual identity, yet simultaneously ALWAYS fully dependent, "under these conditions of reciprocation", on Krishna too
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PADA: Thanks for this video link BAP, Yes, this does look like somewhat "how the souls fall from the spiritually effulgent light of Vaikuntha to the darkness of the material world." Yes I agree, its pretty cool! The lyric's words are a little bit off, but the visuals are pretty much on point. Thanks for this, its also a good warning for us to -- not -- to make the wrong choice and try to be independent from Krishna. Yep, we fall down and land in a pot of muck, hee hee, and here we are, in the blazing fire of material existence. ys pd
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