PADA: vs Meeting of Scholars at Purnaprajna Vidyapith, Bangalore

Conference Of Traditional Vaishnava Scholars 

by Basu Ghosh Das

The following is a report on a “Vidvat Gosthi” (conference of traditional vaishnava scholars) held at the Purnaprajna Vidyapith, Bangalore (traditional Samskrita educational institution of the Udipi Madhva Pejawar Math & others among the 8 Maths of Udipi) on Saturday, January 9, 1999.

Sri Vishvesha Tirtha Swamiji the Pithadhipati (head) of the Sri Pejawar Math of Udipi, Karnataka, (established by Sri Madhvacharya 750 years ago), presided over the conference.

Swamiji is a well known public figure in India and a well wisher of ISKCON. In 1995 he visited Mayapur during the inauguration festival of Srila Prabhupada’s Pushpa Samadhi. Shortly he will be observing his 60th year in the sannyas ashrama. His shiksha Guru, Sri Vidyamanya Tirtha Swamiji, who is 87 years old, also attended the discussion that lasted for about 2 hours.

Pejawar Swamiji’s introductory speech to the conference:

“ISKCON is a world wide movement established by Srila Prabhupada specifically with the aim of propagating Vishnu Bhakti. All the Vaishnava Acharyas desired this and *only this society is capable of spreading Vishnu bhakti.* In this endeavour we offer our help & co-operation to solve the problems of this society.

How the process of Vaishnava diksha, what is the system of initiation given in shastras what process should we follow, there is now a need for inquiry on these lines. In this connection the scholars following the parampara (traditions) will show us from the scriptures & agama shastras what the injunction are in this regard.


The aim of this meeting is to establish the authoritative injunctions from scriptures. However, how it is to be adopted practically is the decision of the ISKCON authorities (The ISKCON GBC)”.

Beginning the discussion of diksha & the importance of a guru

Two scholars gave evidence from the “Tantra Saar” (Madhva sampradaya condensation of pancharatra agamas). In connection with the Narayan kavacha, Srimad Madhvacharya wrote that the Narayan Kavacha may not have an effect either due to not hearing it directly from the guru or either or the disciple is not qualified. Similarly, without directly receiving the name of the Lord & pleasing the guru by service, one may not get the desired result, i.e. liberation or perfection in human life.

The conclusion in the opinion of the first two scholars that spoke was summarised by Pejawar Swami who said that a living guru is indeed required.
Thereafter, certain questions / doubts were presented for discussion by Sri Samskritananda Hari of Baroda. They were:

[PADA: For starters there were thousands of people who worshiped Srila Prabhupada even when he was here, who never met him in person. Even if he did come to a temple, generally only few people were allowed to see him personally. And personal questions were often not made in the few darshans that were done at the time. 

Yet then, and now, there are thousands of people who worship him -- who have never met him in person. Of course Srila Prabhupada says anyone who reads his books is meeting him personally, and indeed that is how I myself first met him -- by reading one of his books. 

Meanwhile, the GBC has made a process of "living gurus" whom Basu Ghosh agrees, were never appointed by Srila Prabhupada. Who appointed them then? And if a number of the people who appointed these gurus are themselves often falling into scandals, as Basu Ghosh agrees they are, how can such people involved in scandals "appoint acharyas"? And where do we find "a tradition" of conditioned souls "managing and advising the acharya" -- with a council of defective beings?

To sum, Basu Ghosh admits the GBC's gurus are often fallen and involved in scandals, yet he does not answer -- how can people who are often fallen and engaged in scandals be "gurus"? And how can such fallen people "vote in more gurus"? And how could such deviants "manage the acharyas"?]  

1. For self realisation, is diksha / initiation required from a living guru?

Pejawar Swami replied in the affirmative.

[PADA: So the GBC has been producing their "living" gurus aka what GBC spokesman Jayadvaita swami and / or others admit is an illicit sex with men, women and children guru program. They are living, but how are they gurus? A dog is engaged in all sorts of foolish actions and its is also alive, but that does not make a dog a guru? Simply living does not make a jeeva a guru? And how will worship of guru lineage that contains a number of debauchees -- give one self realization?]

2. If the guru is fallen, what happens to the disciple?

This question was answered by the scholars present & by Pejawar Swamiji as follows; If the guru falls down, it does NOT affect the spiritual life & spiritual advancement of the disciple, because at the time of initiation, the guru was in good standing.

[PADA: So when the guru has a trend and tendency to be engaged in deviations, if not perhaps illicit sex with men, women and children, because he is not yet pure -- he is still a guru? No, he is still full of unwanted desires (anarthas), thus he is not a guru yet. 

Sometimes these anarthas surface and sometimes not, but when a person who has anarthas (either physically observable or not) he is not a guru. Meanwhile, Srila Prabhupada says the diksha guru is the person who absorbs the sins of the followers. A person who is prone to fall down is a neophyte, he has no capacity to absorb the sins of others as a diksha guru. 

A person cannot absorb the sins of others when he is himself not cleared of his own sins, nor is any such process of sinful people absorbing the sins of other sinful people described by Srila Prabhupada. Rather, he warned us if we neophytes tried to absorb sins as diksha gurus, we will get sick, fall down or both, and a number of them died early from taking sins. Some of them just went totally insane as well.

This is art from Krishna's guru parampara? 

A conditioned soul type person may be in "good standing" for some temporary time span, but he is still a neophyte, a kanistha adhikary. He is thus prone to fail. He also cannot absorb sins, that is not possible. As Srila Prabhupada says -- a drowning man cannot save another drowning man, they will both drown, thus the false guru and his followers all go down. 

This would be like saying, at the wedding ceremony event -- the husband was not at the time engaged in partying, drinking and engaging in affairs with prostitutes, so he was a husband in good standing. Later he fell down with prostitutes. Yet he was "a bona fide good husband" at the time of the wedding, ok somewhat artificially, because he artificially suppressed his desires then. 

Yet he had these forbidden type desires brewing beneath the surface the whole time, he may have suppressed them for some time, but they  manifested later on. In other words, he was never fully purified. So a person who is in good standing temporarily is not really a bona fide guru, he is a person who is wrestling with his desires, that means he is a conditioned soul and not a guru.

Of course then again Basu Ghosh says -- because Bhakti Vikas swami is voted into their oral sex (homsexual sex) with taxi drivers in the holy dham guru parampara, he is considered "a guru in good standing," but that is not what most moral people would consider as a bona fide chain of God's successors?

Srila Prabhupada says a person who poses as guru and falls down, never was a guru in the first place. A person who is prone to falling is a conditioned neophyte and not an acharya. Srila Prabhupada also says when a neophyte absorbs sins as a diksha guru, that will cause him to degrade and fall anyway. So perhaps they would have continued in so-called good standing and made progress, but taking sins of others caused them to be overwhelmed and to fail.]

3. In the physical absence of the guru, can a person take diksha from a previous acharya (without his physical presence in this world – after his disappearance)?

Pejawar Swami said that for God realization, a relationship with Srila Prabhupada was essential, but that after his departure / disappearance it must be done through a living guru.

[PADA: OK so the GBC has an illicit sex with men, women and children guru program, its living, but is it authorized?] 

The point was also raised by me that Prabhupada has mentioned “disciple of my disciple” and “grand disciple”. This principle was upheld several times during the course of the entire discussion by the Pejawar Swamiji.

[PADA: So the illicit sex with men, women and children guru program, which Basu Ghosh admits was appointed by people like himself and not Srila Prabhupada, is taking sins like Jesus as diksha gurus?]

Then Sri Samskritananda asked;

“We have heard that only an Uttama Adhikari can give initiation. We have also heard that Prabhupada had selected only 11 gurus, but none were never selected as Acharya or head of the institution. So who is authorized to give initiation then.”

Pejawar Swami said that the guru must directly “speak” the mantra to the disciple. For spiritual perfection a guru is required.

[PADA: How can illicit sex guru paramparas speak the pure mantra? Meanwhile we have many books and tape recordings of Srila Prabhupada's speaking, why is that not living and pure speaking?] 

One group says; “only Prabhupada can be the guru” Pejawar Swami was asked by Samskritananda. They say that they are directly taking diksha from Prabhupada, even after his passing.

Then Sri K.T. Pandurangi, retired head of the department of Sanskrit at Bangalore University, questioned “that out of 11 gurus appointed by Srila Prabhupada, since 7 or 8 had already fallen down & become grihastas, the balance might too fall. So what would happen to the ISKCON institution in that event?”

At once Pejawar Swamiji said that in that case any other qualified gurus may give diksha and the parampara will thus continue. At that point I clarified to the assembly that there are now more gurus who were appointed by the GBC and that they are in good standing.

Then Pejawar Swamji read aloud a copy of the letter of July 9, 1977. Pejawar Swami once again stated that there must be guru between Srila Prabhupada and new adherents. That after Prabhupada’s physical disappearance, new gurus, as per the decision of the GBC (he stated this clearly) should carry on the parampara.

[PADA: How can persons who are in a self-admitted "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children" guru parampara, be part of Krishna's guru parampara? And if the guru is having illicit sex in the upstairs office, then he goes downstairs to the GBC meeting to "vote in more gurus" what is the value of such a voting of acharya's process? And how is any of this "a continuation of Krishna's guru parampara"? And where does Srila Prabhupada mention 11 new gurus or any other new gurus, this is a concocted concept never given to us.] 

He said that the gurus should not think that they are delivering their disciples, but that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada are delivering the disciples and that they are instruments in the hands of Srila Prabhupada and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. However those who did not take initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada are NOT disciples of Srila Prabhupada, but they are GRAND DISCIPLES (pra-shishyas).

[PADA: Exactly what is the "grand disciple" of an illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara? And why do we have to tell the big scholars of India that -- there is no such thing as an illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara from Vaikuntha, nor grand disciples of same?] 

Then Sri K.T. Pandurangi clearly stated that one group would like ISKCON to adopt the system of the (Punjabi) Sikhs, because Prabhupada did not appoint any successor.

At that time, I asked if it was possible for Prabhupada to continue to give diksha after his departure from this world.

Swamiji replied, “no, it is not possible”.

[PADA: Yet Srila Prabhupada is still giving divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha) to thousands of people, and they are following in many cases WAY BETTER than the GBC's guru folks, following even better than a number of their gurus. Why would we say the people who are following the process nicely are not initiated, but the illicit sex with men, women and children guru program are following, in good standing and are initiated? 

How can we say the people who are following Krishna nicely cannot possibly be linked to Krishna, but the debauchee acharya's program is linked to Krishna? The police are not linked to the government properly, only the bank robbers are linked? 

Is that not a huge insult to Krishna? 

The people who follow You nicely My Dear Lord are not connected to You, but the debauchee acharya's process is connected to You. That is like a bad advert for being connected to Krishna! The saintly behaved are not connected, the debauchee behaved are connected? Why would any scholars says such things if they had any clue who is God?]

I then informed the assembly that the system mentioned by Sri Pandurangi was indeed rejected by the ISKCON GBC. The GBC says that Srila Prabhupada indeed provided for diksha gurus after his departure from this world, but did not appoint one head of the institution. Prabhupada had invested all decision making powers regarding ISKCON in the GBC.

[PADA: Does this make any sense? We all understand that the GBC are falling down left, right and center, therefore they are in charge of voting, monitoring, censuring, removing, excommunicating and controlling -- Lord Krishna's successors and acharyas. How can defective conditioned souls be in charge of Krishna's guru parampara? Krishna says He dictates to the acharyas. And now this proposal is that defective people falling down left, right and center will stop Krishna's dictating to the acharyas, and take over dictating with their council votes? How is that going to work? 

Sorry! Krishna says He is in charge of His acharyas. Now these folks are getting rid of Krishna as the leader of His own parampara, hi-jacking His parampara, and making -- deviants into the persons in charge of dictating to Krishna's parampara. The acharya speaks as Krishna dictates, but who needs Krishna to dictate when we have an illicit sex with men, women and children bogus guru parampara to dictate to the acharyas? 

This makes no sense, Krishna is no longer required to manage His own gurus and acharyas, rather we will annoint the fallen illicit sex with men, women and children guru program's deviants to do the acharya's managing instead of Krishna. Really? These scholars do not even know that Krishna is managing His acharyas, and not managing boards of conditioned souls?]

Then Pejawar Swamiji remarked that the devotees within ISKCON ought to co-operate with and follow the decisions of the GBC.

[PADA: So when the GBC reinstates oral sex with taxi drivers as their "Vishnupada" acharya of ISKCON, we all have to accept that? Isn't that making it very dangerous for those of us who do not want to worship their oral sex with taxi drivers in the holy dham guru lineage, by targeting us as dissenters? Why would anyone want us to cooperate with worship of illicit sex with men, women and children guru programs? The GBC folks bury porno swamis and pedophiles in the dham, and we have to accept that deviation? Where does Krishna say we should cooperate with such odious deviations? He doesn't, rather Krishna says we have to oppose deviation.]

Sumitra Krishna Prabhu (General Manager of ISKCON, Madras) put the following question to Pejawar Swami, “should a diksha guru be respected, to which Swamiji replied, “yes”.

[PADA: So when the GBC annoints their illicit sex deviants as acharyas, we have to respect that, because they have artificially designated themselves as diksha gurus? Sorry, we respect the acharya and his teachings, not some conditioned souls who rubber stamp themselves with big titles.]

Then Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu asked Swamiji; “I am an initiated disciple of Jayapataka Swami. If he asks me for a glass of water, should I respect his order?” The scholars answered in the affirmative. Then he asked, “If I don’t bring the water, then is it wrong or offensive (guru-aparadha or guror avajna)?” The Pandit’s replied: “it is guru-aparadha”.

[PADA: So Jayapataka is the co-founder father of the illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara, and therefore we need to worship his illicit sex deviants as our acharyas, because JPS has ordered us to do so?]

Pejawar Swamiji replied emphatically that you must serve your diksha guru (their term: “mantra-upadeshaka-guru”).

Then at one point nearing the end of the scholarly discussion on the question of diksha according to pancharatrika shastras, H.H. Bhakti Vikasa Swami suggested that if Chanchalapati Prabhu, the Vice President of ISKCON Bangalore had any questions, then he may kindly be allowed to put them to the assembly.

An open discussion ensued wherein Chanchalapati Das explained to the Pejawar Swamiji the position of the “Final Order” [paper written by K.K. Desai] that Srila Prabhupada wanted Ritviks and not regular Gurus. “That was his “Final Order”.
Pejawar Swami did not agree to the interpretation of Chanchalapathi das and replied that Srila Prabhupada always followed Sadhu, Shastra, and Guru. 

[PADA: Amazing, Basu Ghosh promotes an anal sex, oral sex, homosex, heterosex, pedophile sex, porno sex and maybe sex with donkeys "acharyas, gurus and messiahs from heaven" program -- and we keep hearing that this type of a concocted guru process "follows Guru, Sadhu and Shastra." What Guru, Sadhu and Shastra supports an illicit sex with men, women and children guru program? This is simply stated, false. 

There is only one order, and its the same order every day. Its the same order all the time. Its the same 24/7 order, its the same first, last and final order, its the same order for the past seven hundred and eighteen trillions years and way before that order, i.e. acharya upasanam, we have to worship the acharya. There is no other order, we have to worship exclusively Krishna's pure devotee and not worship conditioned souls posing artificially as His acharyas, that is sinful and is forbidden in shastra.] 

At this point one of the scholars added that you cannot go by just one letter, but the letter must be seen in the context of the entirety of Prabhupada’s teachings. He also mentioned that if there is a confusion in the letter then we must refer to shastras. He said Srila Prabhupada, as an Acharya respected all the four sampradayas and Shastras.

[PADA: Yes, the entirety is, anyone who worships conditioned souls as acharyas goes to the lowest regions of the universe, and so do the bogus supporters and foolish scholars who support these false acharyas. There is not one letter, there are thousands and thousands of quotes that state one has to worship the pure devotee and no one else. And worship conditioned souls at your peril, it does not produce liberation.]

As the meeting was adjourning, Sri Ranga Priya Deshika Swamiji, a disciple of the Parakala Math of the Ramanuja Sampradaya arrived. After speaking words aimed at bringing about a peace and rapprochement between the opposing opinions, several persons put questions to him.

Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu asked Sri Ranga Priya Deshika Swamiji; “I am an initiated disciple of Jayapataka Swami. Should I follow his orders”?

Swamiji replied “yes”. “Definitely”.

[PADA: Jayapataka told me we have to continue the worship of Jayatirtha as our ISKCON acharya, never mind he has been exposed as offering LSD to the shalagram and he is having illicit sex with followers etc. We are supposed to worship illicit sex and offering LSD drugs to the shalagram deity programs, because Jayapataka says so? Which Guru, Sadhu and Shastra says we have to worship intoxicated debauchees as our acharyas?]

Lilanath Prabhu asked if we can make fun of the diksha guru, who gave us mantra upadesha, and Swamiji replied, “no, it is wrong to do so.” He then asked, “Is the disciple who received mantra-diksha from his guru bound to follow the orders of the diksha-guru?” to which Ranga-priya Swami replied, “Yes.”
Anukulya Kesava Prabhu asked Ranga Priya Swamiji that “if your guru is in good standing, can you reject him?” Swamiji replied, “no, you cannot reject him, that is an offence”.

[PADA: Right, if a person is in the illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara he is in good standing, but if he worships the pure devotee acharya Srila Prabhupada he is a deviant. And worse, we cannot reject the illicit sex sampradaya gurus and worship Srila Prabhupada instead, because that is an offense?]   

Sevatula Prabhu (brahmachari of the Bangalore temple) asked Ranga Priya Swamiji that there is a system of persons who take direct initiation from Sri Raghavendra Swami at his Samadhi (Brindavanam). Swamiji then replied, “Yes, it is possible in rare cases.” 

Then Sevatula Prabhu told Anukulya Kesava Prabhu: “See, just listen to what he is saying.” Then Anukulya Kesava Prabhu asked Swamiji for clarification: “What is the meaning of rare?” Swamiji replied: “‘Rare’ means rare. If anyone has a dream in which Prabhupada asks him to take direct initiation from me, then it may be valid.” 

Then Anukulya Prabhu asked Swamiji “Can an entire group of 50 / 60 persons take direct initiation from Prabhupada?” and Swamiji replied, “No, I told you. Rare means rare”. Then Swamiji further clarified: “‘Rare’ means once in a million. Once in a while, such direct initiation may occur.”

[PADA: Yes, hee hee, in Kali yuga its very rare for anyone to promote pure devotees as the guru, and its common to promote rubbish debauchees as acharyas. Hah hah. Could not have said it better myself!] 

The meeting then ended.

[PADA: Yep and Basu Ghosh immediately posted the meeting as proof his illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara is bona fide, because "its backed by many scholars." Well many scholars backed the Kauravas, many scholars backed the Pharisees, many scholars backed all kinds of nonsense, that does not make it valid.]

The following Pithadhipathis (heads of Maths), Sannyasis & scholars attended the discussion;

H.H. Vishvesha Tirtha Swamiji, Pithadhipati of Sri Pejawar Math, Udipi

H.H. Vidyamanya Tirtha Swamiji, Pithadhipati of Sri Palimar Math, Udipi

H.H. Ranga Priya Deshika Swami – Sri (Ramanuja) Sampradaya (sannyasi) (and retired Physics Professor).

H.H. Bhakti Vikas Swami – ISKCON Sannyasi Preacher & Author

H.H. Vedavyas Priya Swami – ISKCON Regional Secretary, N. India

Prof. D. Prahladacharya – Head of the department of Sanskrit, Bangalore University
Sri N.T. Srinivas Iyengar – Rtd Prof. Of Sanskrit Grammar & Vedanta, Jayachamarajendra College, Bangalore

Sri K. Hayavadana Puranika, Ex-Principal, Purnaprajna Vidyapitha (hereafter – PPVP), Bangalore

Sri D. Ramachandra, Principal, PPVP

Sri Samskritananda Hari – Rig Veda Vidvan

Sri P. Keshava Bayari, Senior Prof. PPVP

Sri A. Haridas Bhatt, Prof. Of Nyaya, PPVP

Sri K. Ananta Tantri, Prof. of Alankar, PPVP

Sri Vitthal das Bhat, Asst Prof. Of Dvaita Vedanta, PPVP

Sri P. Venkatesh Bayari, Asst Prof. Of Literature, PPVP

Sri A. Guru Prasada, Asst Prof of Alankara, PPVP

Sri Satyanarayana Acharya, Lecturer, PPVP

Sri Tirumala Kulkarni, Lecturer, PPVP

Sri C. H. Barinath, Senior lecturer, PPVP

Sri H.P. Nagaraj, Lectuer, PPVP

Sri K.S. Badari Narayana Acharya, Lecturer, PPVP

– – – – – – – –

[PADA: Wow! I feel very honored, none of these people could just come out and say, hey we cannot worship illicit sex guru paramparas, its a deviation. It takes someone like us ex-mleccha or even current mleccha at PADA to point that out.


angel108b@yahoo.com]

The above information submitted for your kind consideration.

dasanudas,