To: "Bhakti Caitanya Swami" bhakti.caitanya.swami@gmail.com
Subject: Re: ICC Sub-committee Reply
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Maharaja, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and your service to him. We have been asked to forward you a few comments on your June 3 letter (copied below at the end of this correspondence).
Regarding the June 3rd letter and our complaint about Malati et. al. calling women "Prabhu", we stand by our resolution, as cited by you in your June 3rd letter:
-- A little further regarding Malati devi dasi’s use of the term “prabhu” when addressing ladies. The ICC has passed their resolution which includes the paragraph: “Whereas, the ICC is aware that Malati Devi Dasi has been engaged for years in reversing Srila Prabhupada’s many instructions that women be addressed as “mother” (mataji / mata), and advocating women be addressed as “prabhu” (a masculine word. The feminine is “prabhvi”), thus contradicting the clear teachings of Srila Prabhupada,”
-- In my letter to you of May 27th I humbly advised you to be careful about speaking as strongly as you did regarding some senior ladies using the the term ”prabhu” for other ladies. In the meantime a kind devotee who somehow saw my letter to you sent me the following information, extracted from the Vedabase. I'm sure you have this resource, so you can check all these quotations and confirm their validity.
We continue to stand by it because the problem is not just about how women address each other. Malati and others routinely insist that men also should address women as Prabhu. The women's ministry, too, has been aggressively pushing that agenda.
In this regard, please refer to Mata Ji Vishakha devi dasi's old essay (this seems to be the source of your quotes) featured at the Vaishnavi Ministry's website:
http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu/
As seen in this exchange in the comments section to the article, one of the commentators (seems to be Indian) notes that Vishakha's article only shows statements where Srila Prabhupada addressed some of his female disciples as "Prabhu" but does not mention any of Srila Prabhupada's other statements where he says women should be addressed as mother.
And despite suggesting what appears to be a "live and let live" solution, in which Western women can address each other however they wish and brahmacharis and Indians may go on with the traditional practice of addressing women as Mother, the Vaishnavi Ministry's website administrator engages in an abusive ad hominem attack on the commentator, accusing him of suggesting that the women who relayed these quotes are liars (a screen shot is also included for future reference):
Shankara Dash Shivagana says
October 20, 2019 at 11:43 pm
<http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu
/#comment-3334>
Good research, but lacking some additional points and information. At the end of the day: Matajis may address each other as they please (and at least for Western devotees, either “Mataji” or “Prabhuji” is fine–neither is wrong); Spiritual Masters may address their disciples to show respect as they please; but Brahmacharis and any male educated in the Vedic system should refer to any women (except his wife if married) as “Mataji.” There is not an exception to the last rule and countless quotes available from Srila Prabhupada to support the idea that a cultured, well educated man always refers to a woman as “Mataji” to show her the respect of a Guru and mother.
One last point: from a grammatical perspective, a Hindi or Sanksrit speaker would never use “Prabhu” to address a woman, and this point should not be lost. (I’d be curious to see any time Prabnupada used “Prabhu” to address a Mataji in Hindi or Bengali – although I doubt such a thing ever happened.) No one will find any Sanksirt text where a Vashnavi is referred to as “Prabhu,” but you will find terms such as “Swamini.”
Reply
http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu/#comment-3334>
Web Administrator <http://www.pranadacomtois.com/> says
June 3, 2020 at 12:01 pm
<http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu/#comment-3485>
Shankara Dash Shivagana says
October 20, 2019 at 11:43 pm
<http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu
/#comment-3334>
Good research, but lacking some additional points and information. At the end of the day: Matajis may address each other as they please (and at least for Western devotees, either “Mataji” or “Prabhuji” is fine–neither is wrong); Spiritual Masters may address their disciples to show respect as they please; but Brahmacharis and any male educated in the Vedic system should refer to any women (except his wife if married) as “Mataji.” There is not an exception to the last rule and countless quotes available from Srila Prabhupada to support the idea that a cultured, well educated man always refers to a woman as “Mataji” to show her the respect of a Guru and mother.
One last point: from a grammatical perspective, a Hindi or Sanksrit speaker would never use “Prabhu” to address a woman, and this point should not be lost. (I’d be curious to see any time Prabnupada used “Prabhu” to address a Mataji in Hindi or Bengali – although I doubt such a thing ever happened.) No one will find any Sanksirt text where a Vashnavi is referred to as “Prabhu,” but you will find terms such as “Swamini.”
Reply
http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu/#comment-3334>
Web Administrator <http://www.pranadacomtois.com/> says
June 3, 2020 at 12:01 pm
<http://vaishnaviministry.org/srila-prabhupada-on-the-use-of-the-address-prabhu/#comment-3485>
You can doubt as you like, but Srila Prabhupada himself, a sannyasi male educated in the Vedic system, referred to his female disciples as “Prabhu.”
“Yamuna Prabhu,” “Visakha Prabhu,” “Malati Prabhu,” “Kausalya Prabhu,”
“Madira Prabhu.” Of course, you can call the Vaishnavis whom Srila Prabhupada so addressed and relay this information as liars, but I would hesitate to do that for the sake of your bhakti creeper.
This shows that the GBC's Vaishnavi Ministry is hostile towards traditional shishtachara practiced and advocated by our acharyas, including Srila Prabhupada. And as long as the GBC turns a deaf ear to this, this can also be considered GBC policy. Maunam sammati lakshanam.
Aside from this, there is the question, should it be normative behavior for women to address other women as "Prabhu"? Do women address other women as "Prabhu" in the spiritual world, in Krishna Lila, in Caitanya-lila? As the devotee pointed out above, Hindi / Bengali-speaking women don't. Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada in naming his own disciples specifically reserved Mata for women in names for females and Prabhu for men in names for males:
- Bhumata Devi Dasi (Dallas, September, 1972)
- Gomata Devi Dasi (New Vrindaban, April, 1973)
- Gopimata Devi Dasi (London, 1977)
- Jaganmata Devi Dasi (New York, June, 1975)
- Lokamata Devi Dasi (Amsterdam, August, 1976)
- Sacimata Devi Dasi (Mayapur, March, 1972)
- Sacimata Devi Dasi (Germany, 1975)
- Sarvasaktimata Devi Dasi (Detroit, 1973)
- Vedamata Devi Dasi (New Vrindaban, August, 1975)
- Jagatprabhu Dasa (Paris)
- Jayamahaprabhu Dasa (Argentina, March, 1977)
- Mahaprabhu Dasa (Sydney, May, 1971)
- Mahaprabhu Dasa (New York, 1974)
- Mahaprabhu Krpa Dasa (New Vrindaban, March, 1977)
Srila Prabhupada gave the name "Mata" in some of the names of his female
disciples, but never "Prabhu", as he did with some of his male disciples.
And then there is this charming letter:
-- My Dear little mothers, Yamuna, Malati, Janaki, Please accept my blessings. I lost my mother when I was only 14 years old. So I didn't get much of my mother's affection in my childhood. But in my old age, Krishna has given me so many young mothers to take care of me.
-- Another mother Govinda Dasi is there in Hawaii. She is always asking me to go there. So I will go there within this month. But my one appeal is to my fathers and mothers (Letter to: Yamuna, Malati, Janaki -- Los Angeles 20 February, 1969)
-- Then, of course, there is the matter of Srila Prabhuapda always addressing great Vaishnavis by the title "Mother". Srila Prabhupada *always* says "Mother Yashoda". Kuntimata. Mother Sita, Sacimata, Jahnava Mata, Gangamata Gosvamini, etc. I could produce numerous references, but the normative practice is that women are addressed by the term "Mother" in some form or another or some other, appropriate gender-specific title ("Queen", Maharani, etc.), never "Prabhu." Even today that is the norm among native speakers of Indian languages.
And finally, there are instructions from Srila Prabhupada by which he says that men should address women other than their wives as "Mother".
Of course it is good that you are concerned about being chaste, shy, and submissive amongst your godbrothers. Canakya Pandit said that every man
should see all other women as mother, and similarly a woman should see all
men as son. So what is your difficulty? If you are completely aggressive on Sankirtana, there should be no material aggressiveness and pride remaining.
You have to distinguish between devotees and non-devotees. (Letter to: Jagaddhatri, Pasupati, Sailogata, Pamela -- Dallas 30 July, 1975)
###
-- So in India, especially, women are still respected. Therefore Canakya Pandita says, matrvat para-daresu: "Any woman who is not your wife, she should be treated as your mother." This is moral instruction. Matrvat. At the present moment, they have invented the word bahinaji, "sister." No. In the Vedic culture, there is no such thing as "sister." "Mother," that is Vedic culture. Because mother is always respected, so any woman, if she is called "Mother..." The brahmacari would go to the householder's house and address the ladies, "Mother. Mother, give us some alms." So from the childhood, a brahmacari is trained to address all women as mother.
Therefore, when they are young, they cannot see women in any other way. This is Vedic culture. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.24 – October 4, 1974, Mayapur)
###
SB 9.10.27
na vai veda maha-bhaga
bhavan kama-vasam gatah
tejo 'nubhavam sitaya
yena nito dasam imam
SYNONYMS: na -- not; vai -- indeed; veda -- did know; maha-bhaga -- O greatly fortunate one; bhavan -- yourself; kama-vasam -- influenced by lusty desires; gatah -- having become; tejah -- by influence; anubhavam -- as a result of such influence; sitayah -- of mother Sita; yena -- by which; nitah -- brought into; dasam -- condition; imam -- like this (destruction).
TRANSLATION: O greatly fortunate one, you came under the influence of lusty desires, and therefore you could not understand the influence of mother Sita. Now, because of her curse, you have been reduced to this state, having been killed by Lord Ramacandra.
PURPORT: Not only was mother Sita powerful, but any woman who follows in the footsteps of mother Sita can also become similarly powerful. There are
many instances of this in the history of Vedic literature. Whenever we find a description of ideal chaste women, mother Sita is among them. Mandodari,
the wife of Ravana, was also very chaste. Similarly, Draupadi was one of five exalted chaste women. As a man must follow great personalities like Brahma and Narada, a woman must follow the path of such ideal women as Sita, Mandodari and Draupadi. By staying chaste and faithful to her husband, a woman enriches herself with supernatural power. It is a moral principle that one should not be influenced by lusty desires for another's wife.
“Yamuna Prabhu,” “Visakha Prabhu,” “Malati Prabhu,” “Kausalya Prabhu,”
“Madira Prabhu.” Of course, you can call the Vaishnavis whom Srila Prabhupada so addressed and relay this information as liars, but I would hesitate to do that for the sake of your bhakti creeper.
This shows that the GBC's Vaishnavi Ministry is hostile towards traditional shishtachara practiced and advocated by our acharyas, including Srila Prabhupada. And as long as the GBC turns a deaf ear to this, this can also be considered GBC policy. Maunam sammati lakshanam.
Aside from this, there is the question, should it be normative behavior for women to address other women as "Prabhu"? Do women address other women as "Prabhu" in the spiritual world, in Krishna Lila, in Caitanya-lila? As the devotee pointed out above, Hindi / Bengali-speaking women don't. Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada in naming his own disciples specifically reserved Mata for women in names for females and Prabhu for men in names for males:
- Bhumata Devi Dasi (Dallas, September, 1972)
- Gomata Devi Dasi (New Vrindaban, April, 1973)
- Gopimata Devi Dasi (London, 1977)
- Jaganmata Devi Dasi (New York, June, 1975)
- Lokamata Devi Dasi (Amsterdam, August, 1976)
- Sacimata Devi Dasi (Mayapur, March, 1972)
- Sacimata Devi Dasi (Germany, 1975)
- Sarvasaktimata Devi Dasi (Detroit, 1973)
- Vedamata Devi Dasi (New Vrindaban, August, 1975)
- Jagatprabhu Dasa (Paris)
- Jayamahaprabhu Dasa (Argentina, March, 1977)
- Mahaprabhu Dasa (Sydney, May, 1971)
- Mahaprabhu Dasa (New York, 1974)
- Mahaprabhu Krpa Dasa (New Vrindaban, March, 1977)
Srila Prabhupada gave the name "Mata" in some of the names of his female
disciples, but never "Prabhu", as he did with some of his male disciples.
And then there is this charming letter:
-- My Dear little mothers, Yamuna, Malati, Janaki, Please accept my blessings. I lost my mother when I was only 14 years old. So I didn't get much of my mother's affection in my childhood. But in my old age, Krishna has given me so many young mothers to take care of me.
-- Another mother Govinda Dasi is there in Hawaii. She is always asking me to go there. So I will go there within this month. But my one appeal is to my fathers and mothers (Letter to: Yamuna, Malati, Janaki -- Los Angeles 20 February, 1969)
-- Then, of course, there is the matter of Srila Prabhuapda always addressing great Vaishnavis by the title "Mother". Srila Prabhupada *always* says "Mother Yashoda". Kuntimata. Mother Sita, Sacimata, Jahnava Mata, Gangamata Gosvamini, etc. I could produce numerous references, but the normative practice is that women are addressed by the term "Mother" in some form or another or some other, appropriate gender-specific title ("Queen", Maharani, etc.), never "Prabhu." Even today that is the norm among native speakers of Indian languages.
And finally, there are instructions from Srila Prabhupada by which he says that men should address women other than their wives as "Mother".
Of course it is good that you are concerned about being chaste, shy, and submissive amongst your godbrothers. Canakya Pandit said that every man
should see all other women as mother, and similarly a woman should see all
men as son. So what is your difficulty? If you are completely aggressive on Sankirtana, there should be no material aggressiveness and pride remaining.
You have to distinguish between devotees and non-devotees. (Letter to: Jagaddhatri, Pasupati, Sailogata, Pamela -- Dallas 30 July, 1975)
###
-- So in India, especially, women are still respected. Therefore Canakya Pandita says, matrvat para-daresu: "Any woman who is not your wife, she should be treated as your mother." This is moral instruction. Matrvat. At the present moment, they have invented the word bahinaji, "sister." No. In the Vedic culture, there is no such thing as "sister." "Mother," that is Vedic culture. Because mother is always respected, so any woman, if she is called "Mother..." The brahmacari would go to the householder's house and address the ladies, "Mother. Mother, give us some alms." So from the childhood, a brahmacari is trained to address all women as mother.
Therefore, when they are young, they cannot see women in any other way. This is Vedic culture. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.24 – October 4, 1974, Mayapur)
###
SB 9.10.27
na vai veda maha-bhaga
bhavan kama-vasam gatah
tejo 'nubhavam sitaya
yena nito dasam imam
SYNONYMS: na -- not; vai -- indeed; veda -- did know; maha-bhaga -- O greatly fortunate one; bhavan -- yourself; kama-vasam -- influenced by lusty desires; gatah -- having become; tejah -- by influence; anubhavam -- as a result of such influence; sitayah -- of mother Sita; yena -- by which; nitah -- brought into; dasam -- condition; imam -- like this (destruction).
TRANSLATION: O greatly fortunate one, you came under the influence of lusty desires, and therefore you could not understand the influence of mother Sita. Now, because of her curse, you have been reduced to this state, having been killed by Lord Ramacandra.
PURPORT: Not only was mother Sita powerful, but any woman who follows in the footsteps of mother Sita can also become similarly powerful. There are
many instances of this in the history of Vedic literature. Whenever we find a description of ideal chaste women, mother Sita is among them. Mandodari,
the wife of Ravana, was also very chaste. Similarly, Draupadi was one of five exalted chaste women. As a man must follow great personalities like Brahma and Narada, a woman must follow the path of such ideal women as Sita, Mandodari and Draupadi. By staying chaste and faithful to her husband, a woman enriches herself with supernatural power. It is a moral principle that one should not be influenced by lusty desires for another's wife.
Matrvat para-daresu: an intelligent person must look upon another's wife as being like his mother. This is a moral injunction from Canakya-sloka (10).
matrvat para-daresu
para-dravyesu lostravat
atmavat sarva-bhutesu
yah pasyati sa panditah
"One who considers another's wife as his mother, sees another's possessions as a lump of dirt and treats all other living beings as he would himself is considered to be learned." Thus Ravana was condemned not only by Lord Ramacandra but even by his own wife, Mandodari. Because she was a chaste woman, she knew the power of another chaste woman, especially such a wife as mother Sitadevi.
There are clear instructions that men especially are to address other women as "Mother", as a normative Vedic practice.
So, then how should we understand the instances of Srila Prabhupada has
addressed some women as "Prabhu"? I think it should be seen as one of the
adjustments that Srila Prabhupada made for his Western disciples. But as a
form of address, even for Western disciples it should not be seen on the
same level as "Mother," because his instructions that men should address
women as mother are also for his Western disciples (and it's the norm of
Vedic literature and tradition). Even among women, it should be considered
an inferior form of addressing other women.
In this regard, we do find in Vedic literature many instances of permitted
activities that are relatively considered superior or inferior. For example, in Manu-smriti there are eight forms of marriage given, and each of them, beginning with brahma marriage are progressively inferior in quality (meaning, that the merit conferred by such marriages is progressively less). Hence, the brahma form of marriage today has become the dominant form of marriage in Indian society.
As a policy, the GBC should establish that "Mother" is the superior form of
address, and even among women, "Prabhu" is an inferior form established for
his Western disciples.
But if you continue to let Malati and the Vaishnavi ministry to keep denigrating Srila Prabhupada's instructions by insisting that men also refer to women as "Prabhu", then not only will they be guilty of denigrating Srila Prabhupada's instructions, then the rest of you will be implicated as well.
Your servants,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 1:18 PM Bhakti Caitanya Swami
bhakti.caitanya.swami@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Sahadeva prabhu and Kesava Murari prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
A little further regarding Malati devi dasi’s use of the term “prabhu” when addressing ladies. The ICC has passed their resolution which includes the paragraph: “Whereas, the ICC is aware that Malati Devi Dasi has been engaged for years in reversing Srila Prabhupada’s many instructions that women be addressed as “mother” (mataji / mata), and advocating women be addressed as “prabhu” (a masculine word. The feminine is “prabhvi”), thus contradicting the clear teachings of Srila Prabhupada,”
In my letter to you of May 27th I humbly advised you to be careful about speaking as strongly as you did regarding some senior ladies using the
term ”prabhu” for other ladies. In the meantime a kind devotee who somehow saw my letter to you sent me the following information, extracted from the
Vedabase. I'm sure you have this resource, so you can check all these
quotations and confirm their validity.
This is a list of quotations from letters of Srila Prabhupada:
My Dear Ranadhira,
Please accept my blessings. . . Yes, I have all blessings for the happy
marriage of Haladhara Prabhu and Joan Prabhu, so you may immediately do
the needful in this regards. (16 February, 1971)
My Dear Rsabhadeva,
Please accept my blessings. . . So long as there is Guru-Gauranga worship, Yamuna Prabhu may act as pujari . . . (March 25, 1971)
Anna Prabhu may be initiated also and she has my blessings for being
married to Puranda at the earliest convenience. (letter to Mukunda April 3, 1971)
So the stock of japa beads I brought with me has been depleted. Malati Prabhu was supposed to have brought some beads with her from India, and so I would like that those beads be sent immediately to N.Y. center by air. (letter to Tribhuvanatha July 4, 1971)
My Dear Kirtanananda Maharaja, Vrindaban Candra, and Silavati, Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letters just now received by me here in Calcutta and describing your plans for travelling Sankirtana party, and it is very much encouraging news for me. Silavati Prabhu said that this was her long cherished dream. It has been mine also. . . (November 6, 1971)
In Los Angeles I personally advised them in all the different aspects of deity worship, so you may consult, especially with Silavati Prabhu (now in Dallas) and do the needful. . . (letter to Sri Govinda, January 31, 1973)
My dear Gangamayi, Please accept my blessings. . . I am glad to hear that you are determined to stay and live in the temple now and that you are becoming
very much attached to the Deity worship and very serious about serving the Deity along with Malati Prabhu. . . (May 9, 1974)
My Dear Sacimata Prabhu, Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated 3rd October 1976 and I have noted the contents carefully. . .
This is the end of these quotations. I don’t know who provided the wording
for your resolution, but clearly they were insufficiently informed regarding Srila Prabhupada’s statements, and therefore have fallen into a type of trap of offence to Srila Prabhupada of their own creation. And unfortunately they have dragged yourselves into it along with them.
At this stage let me just say that it seems you should be more careful who you listen to. I will inquire from some lady disciples of Srila Prabhupada about their
experiences with Srila Prabhupada using the term with them personally and
inform you of what they say.
Which brings me to the point of the usage of Hanuman das as a resource. I advised you: “I would also be careful about using Hanuman das as a
resource. Of course he has some points, but from my experience with his
presentations what he gets right is deeply contaminated by aparadha and
even maha-aparadha. This includes some of what he says in his apparently
matter of fact way in this video.”
Here is just one example: At about 1.10 he talks about how the Kuli Mela
was advertised on Dandavats.com which is an ISKCON web site, thus
inferring that ISKCON authorities were in favour of the so-called “fashion show”.
Then he refers to that event at 1.24 to 1.29, saying that it was approved
by Malati “prabhu” (note the sarcasm) “and all ISKCON authorities”.
I'm sure I don’t need to tell you that the statement about the web site is a deliberate attempt at character assassination, and that his statement about the event being approved by “all ISKCON authorities” is a much worse attempt at the same. Actually it reveals a very abusive mentality towards ISKCON authority, deliberately presenting wildly inaccurate disinformation or even misinformation, in an effort to deceive innocent devotees into thinking badly about ISKCON authority.
For your information, I have provided the GBCs the url you supplied me to this video, and the first GBC member to respond said: “Such a fashion show and "belly dance" should never have been allowed at any ISKCON event or center. It is a great embarrassment.”
Anyway, my main point today was to help you with your understanding of the
use of the term “prabhu” in regard to ladies by Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps
the other ICC members could be helped with this also.
Hoping this meets you well.
Your servant,
Bhakti Caitanya Swami
(Text PAMHO:32841913) --------------------------------------
> ------- End of Forwarded Message ------
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
To: GBC EC
To: Pancaratna (das) (Jaipur - IN)
To: Sahadevadasa (TP Secunderabad - IN)
To: sanakasanatanadas@gmail.com
Cc: ISKCON (India) Bureau Discussions
Cc: Badrinarayan Swami (San Diego - US)
Cc: "Bhakti Bhringa Govinda Swami" <govindaswami108@gmail.com>
Cc: Bhakti-bhusana Swami
Cc: Bhaktivaibhava Swami
Cc: Bir Krishna das Goswami
Cc: "Devamrita Swami" <devamrita.swami108@gmail.com>
Cc: "Giridhari Swami - GBC" <giridhari.swami@gmail.com>
Cc: "Guru Prasad Swami" <gpswami@gmail.com>
Cc: Prahladananda Swami
Cc: "Ramai Swami" <ramai_swami@me.com>
Cc: Anuttama (das) ACBSP (IC N.America)
Cc: Dina Sharana (dasi) ACBSP (Wiesbaden - DE)
Cc: Madhu Sevita (das) ACBSP (GBC) (I)
Cc: Virabahu (das) ACBSP (GBC)
Cc: "Chaitanyachandra Das (GBC - Russia)" <chaitanyachandra@mail.ru>
Cc: "Devakinandan Das MVG - Singapore" <dndmvg@yahoo.com>
Cc: Gauranga (das) RNS (Chowpatty, Mumbai - IN)
Cc: "Govardhana Das - GBC" <govardhana.bcais@gmail.com>
Cc: Hrdaya Caitanya (das) SDG
Cc: Praghosa (das) SDG (IRL)
Cc: "Sesa Prabhu - GBC" <sesa.gbc@gmail.com>
Cc: "Sriman Chandrashekhar Prabhu - GBC" <chandra08_8@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Sriman Radha Krishna Das - GBC - Hungary" <rkd@krisna.hu>
Reference: Text PAMHO:32836225 by GBC EC
Attached: an_analysis_of_two_testimonies1.zip
Subject: Response to your forward...
------------------------------------------------------------
Home Base: ISKCON Baroda
Camp: Frisco (Dallas) Texas, USA
Dear Bhakti Chaitanya Maharaj and other GBC members,
Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
Received your message, seen under the following. This letter you have sent is a good example of how the case of Lokanath Swami has been misrepresented in social media circles, with an extremely selective quotation of testimony that would naturally lead an uninformed person to seriously misunderstand the facts of the case.
We are disturbed that you are still ignorant enough about the case that you, or anyone on the GBC, would consider this letter to warrant consideration as a legitimate summary of the case history and testimonies.
Here, attached again, is an objective comparison and analysis of Satya's two
recorded testimonies. Please read it carefully, as it can be considered our
comprehensive reply to any and all the twisted versions of events that
abound on the internet.
matrvat para-daresu
para-dravyesu lostravat
atmavat sarva-bhutesu
yah pasyati sa panditah
"One who considers another's wife as his mother, sees another's possessions as a lump of dirt and treats all other living beings as he would himself is considered to be learned." Thus Ravana was condemned not only by Lord Ramacandra but even by his own wife, Mandodari. Because she was a chaste woman, she knew the power of another chaste woman, especially such a wife as mother Sitadevi.
There are clear instructions that men especially are to address other women as "Mother", as a normative Vedic practice.
So, then how should we understand the instances of Srila Prabhupada has
addressed some women as "Prabhu"? I think it should be seen as one of the
adjustments that Srila Prabhupada made for his Western disciples. But as a
form of address, even for Western disciples it should not be seen on the
same level as "Mother," because his instructions that men should address
women as mother are also for his Western disciples (and it's the norm of
Vedic literature and tradition). Even among women, it should be considered
an inferior form of addressing other women.
In this regard, we do find in Vedic literature many instances of permitted
activities that are relatively considered superior or inferior. For example, in Manu-smriti there are eight forms of marriage given, and each of them, beginning with brahma marriage are progressively inferior in quality (meaning, that the merit conferred by such marriages is progressively less). Hence, the brahma form of marriage today has become the dominant form of marriage in Indian society.
As a policy, the GBC should establish that "Mother" is the superior form of
address, and even among women, "Prabhu" is an inferior form established for
his Western disciples.
But if you continue to let Malati and the Vaishnavi ministry to keep denigrating Srila Prabhupada's instructions by insisting that men also refer to women as "Prabhu", then not only will they be guilty of denigrating Srila Prabhupada's instructions, then the rest of you will be implicated as well.
Your servants,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 1:18 PM Bhakti Caitanya Swami
bhakti.caitanya.swami@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Sahadeva prabhu and Kesava Murari prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
A little further regarding Malati devi dasi’s use of the term “prabhu” when addressing ladies. The ICC has passed their resolution which includes the paragraph: “Whereas, the ICC is aware that Malati Devi Dasi has been engaged for years in reversing Srila Prabhupada’s many instructions that women be addressed as “mother” (mataji / mata), and advocating women be addressed as “prabhu” (a masculine word. The feminine is “prabhvi”), thus contradicting the clear teachings of Srila Prabhupada,”
In my letter to you of May 27th I humbly advised you to be careful about speaking as strongly as you did regarding some senior ladies using the
term ”prabhu” for other ladies. In the meantime a kind devotee who somehow saw my letter to you sent me the following information, extracted from the
Vedabase. I'm sure you have this resource, so you can check all these
quotations and confirm their validity.
This is a list of quotations from letters of Srila Prabhupada:
My Dear Ranadhira,
Please accept my blessings. . . Yes, I have all blessings for the happy
marriage of Haladhara Prabhu and Joan Prabhu, so you may immediately do
the needful in this regards. (16 February, 1971)
My Dear Rsabhadeva,
Please accept my blessings. . . So long as there is Guru-Gauranga worship, Yamuna Prabhu may act as pujari . . . (March 25, 1971)
Anna Prabhu may be initiated also and she has my blessings for being
married to Puranda at the earliest convenience. (letter to Mukunda April 3, 1971)
So the stock of japa beads I brought with me has been depleted. Malati Prabhu was supposed to have brought some beads with her from India, and so I would like that those beads be sent immediately to N.Y. center by air. (letter to Tribhuvanatha July 4, 1971)
My Dear Kirtanananda Maharaja, Vrindaban Candra, and Silavati, Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letters just now received by me here in Calcutta and describing your plans for travelling Sankirtana party, and it is very much encouraging news for me. Silavati Prabhu said that this was her long cherished dream. It has been mine also. . . (November 6, 1971)
In Los Angeles I personally advised them in all the different aspects of deity worship, so you may consult, especially with Silavati Prabhu (now in Dallas) and do the needful. . . (letter to Sri Govinda, January 31, 1973)
My dear Gangamayi, Please accept my blessings. . . I am glad to hear that you are determined to stay and live in the temple now and that you are becoming
very much attached to the Deity worship and very serious about serving the Deity along with Malati Prabhu. . . (May 9, 1974)
My Dear Sacimata Prabhu, Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated 3rd October 1976 and I have noted the contents carefully. . .
This is the end of these quotations. I don’t know who provided the wording
for your resolution, but clearly they were insufficiently informed regarding Srila Prabhupada’s statements, and therefore have fallen into a type of trap of offence to Srila Prabhupada of their own creation. And unfortunately they have dragged yourselves into it along with them.
At this stage let me just say that it seems you should be more careful who you listen to. I will inquire from some lady disciples of Srila Prabhupada about their
experiences with Srila Prabhupada using the term with them personally and
inform you of what they say.
Which brings me to the point of the usage of Hanuman das as a resource. I advised you: “I would also be careful about using Hanuman das as a
resource. Of course he has some points, but from my experience with his
presentations what he gets right is deeply contaminated by aparadha and
even maha-aparadha. This includes some of what he says in his apparently
matter of fact way in this video.”
Here is just one example: At about 1.10 he talks about how the Kuli Mela
was advertised on Dandavats.com which is an ISKCON web site, thus
inferring that ISKCON authorities were in favour of the so-called “fashion show”.
Then he refers to that event at 1.24 to 1.29, saying that it was approved
by Malati “prabhu” (note the sarcasm) “and all ISKCON authorities”.
I'm sure I don’t need to tell you that the statement about the web site is a deliberate attempt at character assassination, and that his statement about the event being approved by “all ISKCON authorities” is a much worse attempt at the same. Actually it reveals a very abusive mentality towards ISKCON authority, deliberately presenting wildly inaccurate disinformation or even misinformation, in an effort to deceive innocent devotees into thinking badly about ISKCON authority.
For your information, I have provided the GBCs the url you supplied me to this video, and the first GBC member to respond said: “Such a fashion show and "belly dance" should never have been allowed at any ISKCON event or center. It is a great embarrassment.”
Anyway, my main point today was to help you with your understanding of the
use of the term “prabhu” in regard to ladies by Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps
the other ICC members could be helped with this also.
Hoping this meets you well.
Your servant,
Bhakti Caitanya Swami
(Text PAMHO:32841913) --------------------------------------
> ------- End of Forwarded Message ------
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
To: GBC EC
To: Pancaratna (das) (Jaipur - IN)
To: Sahadevadasa (TP Secunderabad - IN)
To: sanakasanatanadas@gmail.com
Cc: ISKCON (India) Bureau Discussions
Cc: Badrinarayan Swami (San Diego - US)
Cc: "Bhakti Bhringa Govinda Swami" <govindaswami108@gmail.com>
Cc: Bhakti-bhusana Swami
Cc: Bhaktivaibhava Swami
Cc: Bir Krishna das Goswami
Cc: "Devamrita Swami" <devamrita.swami108@gmail.com>
Cc: "Giridhari Swami - GBC" <giridhari.swami@gmail.com>
Cc: "Guru Prasad Swami" <gpswami@gmail.com>
Cc: Prahladananda Swami
Cc: "Ramai Swami" <ramai_swami@me.com>
Cc: Anuttama (das) ACBSP (IC N.America)
Cc: Dina Sharana (dasi) ACBSP (Wiesbaden - DE)
Cc: Madhu Sevita (das) ACBSP (GBC) (I)
Cc: Virabahu (das) ACBSP (GBC)
Cc: "Chaitanyachandra Das (GBC - Russia)" <chaitanyachandra@mail.ru>
Cc: "Devakinandan Das MVG - Singapore" <dndmvg@yahoo.com>
Cc: Gauranga (das) RNS (Chowpatty, Mumbai - IN)
Cc: "Govardhana Das - GBC" <govardhana.bcais@gmail.com>
Cc: Hrdaya Caitanya (das) SDG
Cc: Praghosa (das) SDG (IRL)
Cc: "Sesa Prabhu - GBC" <sesa.gbc@gmail.com>
Cc: "Sriman Chandrashekhar Prabhu - GBC" <chandra08_8@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Sriman Radha Krishna Das - GBC - Hungary" <rkd@krisna.hu>
Reference: Text PAMHO:32836225 by GBC EC
Attached: an_analysis_of_two_testimonies1.zip
Subject: Response to your forward...
------------------------------------------------------------
Home Base: ISKCON Baroda
Camp: Frisco (Dallas) Texas, USA
Dear Bhakti Chaitanya Maharaj and other GBC members,
Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
Received your message, seen under the following. This letter you have sent is a good example of how the case of Lokanath Swami has been misrepresented in social media circles, with an extremely selective quotation of testimony that would naturally lead an uninformed person to seriously misunderstand the facts of the case.
We are disturbed that you are still ignorant enough about the case that you, or anyone on the GBC, would consider this letter to warrant consideration as a legitimate summary of the case history and testimonies.
Here, attached again, is an objective comparison and analysis of Satya's two
recorded testimonies. Please read it carefully, as it can be considered our
comprehensive reply to any and all the twisted versions of events that
abound on the internet.
Basu Ghosh Das
PADA: OK we know the victim, too bad for you guys, she is not changing her story. And more people are joining her side of this issue. ys pd
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