Kasturika Devi leaves her body.

Kasturika Devi Dasi, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, left her body.

Chandanacharya Das: My lovely ex-wife, Kasturika Devi Dasi, (Jan), passed away peacefully and quietly today, without pain and suffering. She was initiated by Srila Prabhupada in New York in 1970, and had the opportunity to serve him in the early years of his movement and sit at his feet on many occasions. She leaves two loving daughters and a grandson. 

RadhaShakti and Anjali Devi, both cared for her lovingly from the day she was diagnosed only a few weeks ago. Although we had not been in touch for several years, I will forever be grateful to her for the gift of our daughter RadhaShakti, and the few good years we spent together in the movement.

[PADA: Kasturika was very friendly with PADA and she liked our idea of challenging the worship of the GBC's bogus appointed gurus. She told me, "They think there is a way to replace Srila Prabhupada by some tricks, but there is no way to replace him, he is our eternal guru." 

We are sure that Krishna will bless her with a bright future where she can continue on with her desire to be serving Krishna. We are very confident these sincere devotees of the Lord will be picked up and blessed. ys pd]

Sanat / Mukunda / Prahlad / SULOCHANA's HISTORY / Hitler Prajalpa Program

http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-hitler-prajalpa-program.html

Thanks for your question about the Hitler Prajalpa-ites. Yes, Dayalu Nita's HKC Jaipur seems to have backed away from promoting and supporting these guys, probably realizing they are not very bona fide. Yes, July 4th is Sulochana's birth day, so this is a good time to straighten out some of the record of his history with us.

(A) First of all, these folks have been saying that PADA has repressed Sulochana's documents. Wrong! We gave several hundred dollars to Sulochana to have his "Guru Business" book printed when Sulochana was present in 1985-6. And we also gave him money on a regular basis for food and other necessities, because he had no actual regular income at the time. And later, we were the first to place his publications online in the mid-1990s, probably a decade before ANY others did.

However, in 1985 the Kirtanananda people said that PADA is bogus for driving a taxi, and using that money for our program, because taxi driving is a low class form of income. You'd have to move around drug dealers, pizzas, prostitutes, and who knows what else, as we did. Ooops, except Jayananda dasa ALSO drove a taxi in the same city as me, and Srila Prabhupada said -- this is fine.

Then the Sanat / Mukunda / Prahlad people all started saying they agreed with Kirtanananda's folks, its "bad money" to drive a taxi (Jayananda is bogus?). And we are bogus for getting that bad money. In sum they STILL oppose our giving money to Sulochana, saying we should NOT be getting this bad money, what to speak of giving this "bad money" to Sulochana, and sometimes buying him bags of rice and beans for Sulochana -- so he could LIVE.  

Instead, I should have spent all my money to be taking college classes somewhere, "to get a better job" and totally forget about helping Sulochana. This is what most of our God brothers did, they became obsessed with "getting a better job" and not in addressing "the troubles" in ISKCON, or helping Sulochana etc. 

Getting a better job is the aim of life? 

Amazing, so its better to spend money on getting a college degree, and getting a better job, than helping Sulochana expose Srila Prabhupada's letters to the devotees and the public? So these folks are among the people suppressing Sulochana by attacking his sources of income. 

We also helped print many original letters from Srila Prabhupada which up till then had NOT BEEN PUBLISHED anywhere. 

We also made copies of the so-called appointment tape which had NOT BEEN PUBLISHED. 

And we also made copies of "the will" which also had NOT BEEN PUBLISHED, and then, these Sanat / Mukunda / Prahlad guys say they are infuriated that we were using our "bad money" to publish all these things, just like Kirtananda's crew was upset with us? Why do they want to suppress all these documents? Why is it they want exactly what the bogus GBC wants?

Worse, these critics even directly imply that Sulochana is a bogus person who has been using "dirty" taxi money, and that means they are totally going along with the complaints from Kirtanananda's program. What they should be doing instead is: glorifying Sulochana, saying he accomplished a lot considering he was fighting a multi-millionaire program with only a few pennies. 

Instead, they are begrudging that Sulochana even had a few pennies. This is a horrible deviation for Sulochana to have a few pennies, and they are infuriated he had even that much. That means they are upset that Sulochana had ANY support whatsoever. 

Of course, what this really means is, they did not even want Sulochana to have a can of beans, they wanted to starve his program out of existence, and not give him even a penny of support. OK that is what the Kirtanananda folks wanted. Yep these guys always want exactly what the GBC gurus groupies and goondas wanted.


(B) They sometimes say PADA joined Sulochana's campaign -- and then tried to take credit for his work. Wrong! Sulochana was in New Vrndavana, and he LEFT there to came to California from New Vrndvana to join me, to work with me here. No! I did not go to New Vrndavana! He came here to work with me, and he did work with me here. 

This is re-writing history. 

Sulochana called me from Texas on his way here, and he said "You are right, these gurus are bogus rascals, I am leaving their company and coming there to help you expose them and take them down." The fact that he left New Vrndavana and came here to work with me is well recorded in many news media places, books like "Monkey On A Stick" etc. and its amazing anyone would try to re-write that history now. Sulochana died fighting for Srila Prabhupada and these guys are not happy, he had a few beans to eat? 

(C) Then these guys said it is wrong to have hundreds of children removed from conditions where they are being abused, i.e. they wanted the abuse to continue, and they still say that on Prahlad's and Mukunda's sites etc. Oh boo hoo, Sulochana and PADA wanted Srila Prabhupada's children's abuse to be halted! Again, same apparent agenda as bogus gurus like Kirtanananda.  

(D) Then after we said that we got the poison tape from a person -- who did not want to be publicly identified, they went and identified the name of the source of the poison tape anyway. In other words, they wanted to help the GBC's gurus by publishing the names of people who are exposing ("snitching") on these GBC's gurus, so they can help the GBC's bogus guru program identify the people who should be banned, shunned and attacked -- and to dry up our sources of testimonials, tapes etc. against the criminals. 

Of course, the MAFIA also identifies their snitches, so that will impede more people from testifying against the MAFIA -- or the GBC's MAFIA. In other words, they are handmaidens of the GBC. A policeman told me, these people who identify snitches against criminals are basically TRYING to get the SNITCHES KILLED, knowing this will aid and abet the criminals. Yet! Good news is, more and more people are openly using their names publicly, and they are losing fear of the GBC and their goonda lover's club such as Sanat / Mukunda / Prahlad.

(E) Then, as soon as we announced the poison issue, Sanat / Mukunda / Prahlad group said PADA is a liar etc so they could discredit the poison issue and help Judas.

(F) Then, as soon as Nityananda came out with his extensive forensic evidence to HELP the poison issue, they started writing how he is bogus, so again they could redouble their help for the Judas party.

(G) Then, to explain their position, they made and audio tape with Bhakta das, defender in chief of Radhanath swami and the GBC's guru program. Why are they always licking the jackboots of the GBC guru's loudest defenders? 

(H) Then, in order to explain things further, they cited sections of Hari Sauri's writngs, after Sulochana said Hari Sauri is painting a bull's eye on us to get us killed by writing against us. Hari Sauri has made it his lifetime work to be Bhavananda's bucket boy, and we all know what was going on the gurukulas under these folks.

(I) And now, we have an increasing number of people asking me if these guys are all illuminati infiltrators who are trying to discredit the Krishna religion by linking it to the Nazis. Hee hee! They just go from bad to worse, apparently. 

(J) Then again, Tamals' people said that he had to go to India to deal with the molesting issue, and that caused his death, and these guys are now crying buckets of tears that Tamal had to go to India -- where he died after that meeting? Why are they not happy that Tamal is gone, like everyone else?

Hee hee! ys pd] 

Daylight Attack on Women Shocks India

http://postcard.news/watch-you-would-have-never-seen-such-heinous-act-of-groping-molestation-and-abuse-in-broad-day-light-check-who-are-those-shameless-boys/

[PADA: The minister has good advice for the victims, women should stay indoors. Swell! India's cultural fabric is deteriorating, that is very clear. Worse, some are saying if this had not been video-taped, there may have never been any arrests. Situation not good! ys pd]

Bangalore and Affiliated Temples Managerial Meeting

Discussed how to spread Krishna consciousness around!

How the simple becomes complicated ... (ISKCON Times)

http://www.iskcontimes.com/its-remarkable-how-complicated-simple-things-get/

Krishna Krishna Govinda (Little Gopikas Video)

Bhakti Caru Swami Bankruptcy Appeal Committee

Bhakti Caru Swami Bankruptcy Appeal Committee

By: BCS Bankruptcy Appeal Committee

Dear Maharajas and Prabhus, Please accept our humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

There have been reports on Internet websites regarding questions of His Holiness Bhakti Caru Swami engaging in business activity. It is well known that he had engaged in the manufacture of yogi bars and his cinematic endeavors with the video series on Srila Prabhupada. However, this is not the limit of his business efforts. Some years ago, he purchased a Canadian aerial survey company, McPharr Geosurveys, in Toronto, Canada.

This business involved many devotees in its management including but not limited to Bhagavan dasa and Dayarama Prabhu from Mayapura. Unfortunately, throughout its history, the company never fared well.

McPharr Geosurveys engaged in aerial surveys searching out mineral deposits. This is done by sensitive machinery and senors being flown over specific geographical areas gleaning data which is later analyzed as to the area's existing mineral content.

The business is technical and the investment required is high. Various industry members have told members of the Committee that novices getting involved in such a sophisticated and expensive industry is ill-advised. However, the amounts of money churned is high and therefore intoxicating. As a result, His Holiness Bhakti Caru Swami found the attraction irresistible.

McPharr ran into constant problems in both technical and financial challenges. The company leased planes to assist their survey work, which led Ambarisa dasa, an investor in the company, to purchase a plane to do their flying. A plane was purchased and a new company, Skyvision Exploration Inc. was started and held title to the plane.

It is said that the money used was earmarked for the Mayapura temple project and Ambarisa was convinced to have the money be put to work to produce more profit for the temple.

To cut a long story short, His Holiness' company fell on bad times. McPharr was forced into bankruptcy in order to escape their creditors and a new company was started, AMG India, to continue on the work of McPharr.

In the end, as of 2010, Bhakti Caru Maharaja's debts totaled just under eleven million (11,000,000.00) to nearly 150 creditors.

The Maharaja solicited loans from many disciples to purchase a property in Ujjain, India. Taking this as collateral, the Bank of India issued a line of credit to AMG for approximately five million dollars. Millions more were also borrowed from disciples for the McPharr enterprise.

According to industry sources, AMG is also now in the red for about eight million dollars. As a result of the approximate six million dollars in loans from disciples, the near eleven million dollars in debts listed above and the large debt owed by AMG, His Holiness has dug himself a very deep well of debt.

There has been further action to raise loans from other disciples in the hope of paying down these debts. Unfortunately, to date, these efforts have fallen short and the debts to the devotees will not be repaid.

So, in the mood of trying to help the Maharaja out of his business mess, with this article, we would like to open up the canvassing effort to the international community of devotees. BCS has preached actively throughout the world and it is likely that many devotees will enthusiastically chip in to help out the poor swami. Why should the whole responsibility of repaying these debts fall on the shoulders of his disciples. Especially, when some of them have been so generous in the first place.

In this regard, a committee has been formed to solicit funds to assist Bhakti Caru Swami's bankruptcy.

Our committee's goal is to assist the Maharaja with his financial difficulties so that he can realign his focus one hundred percent back to preaching, as he is obviously a better preacher than businessman.

This effort has not sought the endorsement of BCS, though he has been informed of its inception, as we realize that the Maharaja’s humility will not allow him to accept any financial assistance.

So, please help, by making a pledge to help put to rest the debts of the devotees and hopefully those of the two bankruptcies. We will follow up on all pledges and guarantee that 100% of the funds will go to retire BCS's business debts. Nothing will be taken for administrative fees, etc., other than bank fees, if necessary.

Srila Prabhupada Initiations Today in Sunnyvale

http://secure.campaigner.com/csb/Public/show/gl0vx--ch5ct-fhb4688

Radhanath swami Keynote Speaker at Prabhupada-fest (LA)

http://prabhupadafestival.com/

[PADA: Amazing really, first of all you vociferously insist on establishing the worship of sexual predators, deviants, drug addicts, Vodka drinkers, chicken salad eaters, porno swamis etc. as God's "gurus and pure devotee successors"; And this causes ISKCON to be sued for $400,00,000 and declared bankrupted simultaneously -- alienates the entire second generation; You also aid and abet a program of banning, and beating of dissenters; And according to some ex-New Vrndavana former goons, you even aid and abet the murder of people who dissent from your program (of worshiping sexual predators as God's messiahs); This causes New Vrndavana to be raided by Federal Marshals and so forth; You also write hokey books with mayavada influence which Bhakti Vikas swami says -- needs to be banned from ISKCON; You then bury a known sexual predator of minors in the holy dham; You launch a $20,000,000 lawsuit against the people who want to worship Prabhupada, and make Prabhupada's worship a crime and criminal offense; You hire lawyers to block people from getting Prabhupada's books from the printers, and presto, voila, you are having all sorts of people all bowing down to touch your feet as the hero of ISKCON? 

Sheesh! 

And this is why the leaders of ISKCON Los Angeles are making a Prabhupada festival, to bring in this guys influence and program? Fantastic progress! At least they are not making "illciit sex with men, women and children guru's" program leader Jayadvaita swami their keynote speaker this time! ys pd]

Conversation About Changed Books // BBT-I etc.

P1: Dear Smara Hari, you are wrong dead wrong on changing these books, so now comes the time where the rice is separated from the paddy. Clearly Krishna comes to test Our understanding of Dharma.

These books were for export. BBT-I declared Srila Prabhupada as their hired employee / translator, and they lost their exclusive program for printing of the original editions, now they prefer to print ones where their translator sannyasi is an expert on ping pong player, and he is chummy with the ladies, and he likes chanting japa in his head, and he teaches us not to wear tilok and dhoti and kurta as its Islamic deviation etc.

Because of the BBT-I changing Srila Prabhupada's books and other changes, 99% of our training ashrams in America are non existent. So even if we read the watered down versions, updated to so-called attract the new or younger folks, they are no where to be found. The changed books do not attract people. And worse, there is nowhere for them to be trained in Krishna Consciousness in America anyway. Are you expecting to retire to Vrindaban and to do so preferring to ignore history?

Smara Hari: Hmmm seems I have touched a sore spot by my opinions. My point is simply that Jitarati does not have legal permission to print the books. Your emotional appeal to the Facebook devotee community will certainly not influence BBT India in their decision to block his delivery. Of course you may cry foul but this will not result in Jiturati prabhu getting his books. But it's a clever try.
Good luck.

Let's discuss the outcome in a few months when you are less passionate.
Hari Bol.

P1: When you attack Jitarati with lies what do you expect? If someone said to me lies about you I would do the same.

Smara Hari: I am not aware if you know I went to law school to study for a degree in Law. Thus the legal aspects of this copywrite infringement case entrigue me. The temperature of emotive feeling is not a factor I ever pay heed to. There are clear legal issues being tested. I have had a friendly relationship with Hansdutta for decades. Since mid 70's .....so 40+ years.

In California he personally told me that he was very displeased by the outcome of the BBT Trustee case that he was involved in on account of the devotee lawyer having written in to the small print of his retainer contract that he would be richly remunerated if the case was won by Hansadutta, though on the surface it appeared that the lawyer was working pro bona (without fees).

Thus Hansadutta lost all the money from the damages he was awarded .....as part of the BBT settlement. So an aspect of this case that intrigues me is the degree to which Hansadutta is willing to support Jitarati in his claim for legitimacy in printing.

Hansadutta being somewhat estranged from the group that presently claim to hold the license to print BBT books.......which seems to be a point that BBT strongly protest. 

[PADA: This is wrong. Gupta always said that he was not doing this case pro bono and he would be taking some payment. Hansadutta did not want to pay his lawyer properly, and that is typical of him, he wants everything for free. And now he says the deities his goondas stole from Seattle can be returned -- only if we give him $1,000,000. He has no idea how to settle monetary issues sensibly. Gupta has expenses just like everyone else and he simply cannot afford to work for free.]

Smara Hari: Veda Guhya prabhu informed me in Vrindaban recently of his emormous printing output. But he referred to 'pieces of literature' in which category he includes leaflets such as the one on chanting Hare Krishna etc.
if you check you will find that 8 million books have not been printed (yet).

Sarva-drik Das, prabhu, unless I am entirely misinformed the court case, in which Hansadutta was given permission to print was created by BBT legally objecting to Hansadutta's scanning and printing of a book in Chinese language.

There has not been .....to my knowlege .....a 'wholesale editing' court case.......but please do keep me informed as to updates in this area.

V Dasa: Jitarati printed these Bhagavatams under KBI license. Veda Guhya, the printer and Jitarati all know that and evidence supporting this has been given to the court.

KV: Damn your materialistic laws and legal justifications. This is Srila Prabhupada's books, His original books for Krishna's sake. Do you even know what Srila Prabhupada said when He wrote down these books for us? He said, "These books, I haven't written them, it's Krishna who's writing them. I am just a vessel." So now,according to your theory, the legal justification will decide that who'll get the original copies of Srila Prabhupada's words? Honestly? A court will decide if Krishna is speaking in these books or not?

This is how low the current BBT has gone? 

You guys who are supporting this murderous act DEFINITELY need to get your priorities sorted 1st and foremost. Your legal justifications and your so called materialistic court rules cannot even match a part of a single dust particle of what Srila Prabhupada has given us. So keep your mouths to yourself about what's right and what's wrong for the original printings.These Books have been written down by a Mahabhagavata Himself, so don't even dare to even look at it with your drastic and destroying intentions.

P.S. and as far as I know, I haven't heard Jayadvaita Swami or any other so called Swami telling us that Sri Krsna is standing in front of them and they were writing the books as He dictates ...

JD: No Smara Hari das prabhu -- THEY ARE NOT Jitarati das's prabhus BOOKS--They are HDG Srila Prabhupads BOOKS as such -- are --DIETIES -- Worshippable- BOOKS. Get it Yet? They must be Protected, the demons in iskcon are OUT of their minds and no good will come of this BAN and Offences to Srila Prabhupada. You play politics and side with the deviators - but this is a SERIOUS Issue and the BBTI are OFF and so is the entire GBC Body.

IF The BBT-I WINs, then ISKCON LOSES and will Suffer the severe Reactions TEN FOLD for such Petty Enviousness, Greed, Stubborness and Back Stabbing to Sincere Publishers of Srila Prabhupads pure 'original book's Sorry you are OFF...who support this Aparad TO SP.

P1: Anti fascist

JD: HEIL HITLER -- I mean BBTI Bombay!

PADA: Right, the BBT says Srila Prabhupada is their "writer for hire," and they want the books "re-edited," by a person who says acharyas are often debauchees. Wonderful. ys pd

Smara Hari: Hmmm Yes Hansadutta made much of this point saying it was claimed that Prabhupada was given pencils and paper as a hired writer. The legal point is by whom the copywrite of the books are retained. For example does all of the programmers at Microsoft legally own their output ?

Or do the artists who work for Disney own the characters they create ?

In legal parlance these are designated as 'workers for hire' and the cppywrite is held by their employer ......in this instance BBT. Just as strict measures are taken to prevent pirating of DVDs etc (indeed there is a warning prior to the film content) so too BBT seek to uphold their legal copywrite, as do all owners of intellectual property.

It seems this present legal challenge in Mumbai is regarding the nature of the licence agreement to print. And of course a ruling for India will not be valid anywhere else in the world. If Jitarati had printed on China none of us would be involved in this present discussion.

P1: We are trained in Srila Prabhupada's laws Smara, who care for karmi laws? I really prefer not to be called to testify again to the court of Yamaraja, as I saw in dreams as a child, not a nice experience to repeat again and again again

Smara Hari: Yes Srila Prabhupada's laws. But I, one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples , believe that Srila Prabhupada clearly wanted BBT to be sole publisher of his books. As you know I hold no post or office in Iskcon. I receive no type of gain, or advantage, or remuneration (the legal term is 'consideration') from Iskcon. So my opinions are entirely independent. But I do not believe that dividing into numerous splinter groups .... however well intended ... was never Srila Prabhupada's intentions for his disciples. Rather we should support his Iskcon preaching movement and show our love for him by our co-operation.

MA: But in all your arguments Smara Hari prabhu, you do not address the actual cause of the splintering; ie. the bbt's refusal to print the unchanged books. Nor do I find Srila Prabhupada's being called 'writer for hire' at all satisfactory.

Smara Hari: Since all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are simply students and aspiring Vaishnavas , most probably there are none who have never made mistakes. No one is arguing that there have not been bad policies, or unreasonable decisions. Its so hard for any of us to get it right all the time.....every day. So certainly there are valid reasons for criticism of various management policies.

However some individuals seriously animical to the very existence of the GBC body do not always argue fairly or accurately. For often the object is simply to dishonour the GBC in the spirit of 'the end justifies the means'. So often a distorted picture of events or actions is deliberately depicted. As is said in journalism 'Why let the truth get in the way of a good story. And as to your mention of splintering .......

The emergence of the Ritvic's notion of discilpic continuation took place years before Hansadutta was in legal conflict with BBT over his independent printing of Prabhupada's books. The issues discussed in his case were not the reason for the splinter. The splintering had taken place years before.

Rather efforts were made to identify sound bites from the trial environment such as Prabhupada was given 'paper and pencils' and deliberately employ these sound bites to alienate lapsed devotees away from Iskcon affiliation, to bolster the ranks of the ritvic group long since in existence...... and of course create a market for sales of the new printing of the old editions. Exaggerated claims against Jay Advaita were created to provide a market for non BBT books.

Just like today's allegation of the burning of 5000 sets of Bhagavatam is a fiction deliberately designed to produce greatest emotional results. It has no basis in facts. The case will be decided in court .... as all cases are ... and the court will decide if Jitarati's printing is illegal, and if so what is the fate of the books.
The decision is not BBT's to make.

Our discussion on this thread will have absolutely no bearing on the court case outcome. That this Facebook strategy is being employed seems to me to indicate that this Rit vic group do not like the case been assembled against them by BBT India and somehow pray that a number of devotees haranguing the BBT will influence the outcome, in their favour.

MA: With due respect prabhu, the first thing is that the applicable splintering spoken of here is about the bbt / kbi splintering, not ritvikism, 'named acaryas', guru falldowns, TOVP & flat earth, jiva fall / never fall or anything else. Rather the split was originally caused by the bbt refusal to print the unchanged books, and nothing else. This is the right of every disciple to have these books for distribution, whatever else politics goes on. That's not distortion; it is fact.

Furthermore, exaggerated claims against Jay Adwaita Swami are not the cause of the market for the unchanged books. The cause is the love of those books by Srila Prabhupada's devotees, who have 100% rights to have access to them for purchase and distribution. This is an absolute right, above and transcendental to all legal jargon. It is a most unfortunate development of the kali-yuga age that this right was originally denied by the bbt, leading to the splintering into kbi printings.

Of important note is that kbi is legally licensed by bbt to print these books; as legality is given so much importance here. Furthermore, as so much importance is validly given to Srila Prabhupada's desires for the bbt be the sole printer, similarly the importance of Srila Prabhupada as founder-acarya of ISKCON and the BBT, rather than him given the 'legal' position of hired author, should be prevalent in the legal jargon, no legal excuses accepted, IMO.

As for the burning of 5,000 sets of Book Bhagavatam sets being a fiction; do you have legal documents to prove that? Jatarati's claim is that bbt has applied to the courts for their destruction. I have not seen documents for this claim, but I have seen respected devotees support his honesty. So until documents prove this a lie, the jury is certainly out on this. But whilst we await that proof either way, the act fo these Book Bhagavat's cannot be seen as anything less than demonic, IMHO.

In regards to this fb strategy, if the devotees do not like the case against them, and if it is true bbt has applied for the books to be destroyed, they have every reason to not like that case! And that would make this fb strategy a very good idea. Anything to halt such wanton destruction of transcendental literatures.

Smara Hari: All of the key players in this drama subscribe to a notion of RitVic succession. Perhaps you do not know them personally but many here know exactly who they are, their history, and their rhetoric. No one is authorised to print Srila Prabhupada's books except BBT. Hansadutta got a license by legal trickery...... not Srila Prabhupada's permission. It now appears BBT Mumbai have exclusive permission to print in India. Thus the RitVic permission .....obtained by legal trickery.... is not valid in India. Hence this emotional appeal to the confused and innocent devotees.

That the prosecutor is asking for life imprisonment...... while the end result will be community service..... is simply the drama of the court proceedings........so do not be disturbed by this. Simply go about your devotional business and serve the mission of Srila Prabhupada .... as best you can.

PADA: Jayadvaita says that GBC gurus are often falling and "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children," and he is the person the GBC "legally supports"? Why do we want a person who says acharyas are usually debauchees to re-write the Vedas? As for Prabhupada being their writer for hire, you mean to say, the people who promote that acharyas are often debauchees are -- Prabhupada's boss, and he is their employee? 

They might legally own things by some tricks, but the Gaudiya Matha did the same thing, they took legal control of the assets, but they were seen as deviants by Srila Prabhupada. Worse, they made their guru's books useless by EDITING these books. Nor do we find editing of any famous author's writings after he physically departs, its not done even for Hemmingway and others ... ys pd

Smara Hari: Tho we may entertain ourselves and others by rambling narratives , none of this will have any influence in these present legal proceedings. I was trying to adhere to the legal principles ......my opinion.....or yours .....has no influence on the outcome of the case.

PADA: We have never really cared about the legal opinions that much ourselves. For example, most devotees disagreed with me about the child molesting, and then the GBC was sued for $400,000,000 for child abuse. Most people then ended up agreeing with me anyway. We also said that the books should not be changed, and we won at least some victory in legal court to form the KBI. 

Meanwhile, many / most devotees wanted originals, so we won the court of devotee opinion. As for actual court cases, we sometimes win there and sometimes not, but most devotees agree with us, the GBC is bogus to change the books and to block others who want originals. We are more interested in the court of public opinion and devotee opinion, although from time to time we also win in the courts. 

As for the legal court itself, the problem there is: That the actual question has never been framed properly, "Does anyone want the Vedas of India re-edited by people who say Vedic acharyas are usually debauchees"? The legal framework has never been done correctly. Anyway, devotees sometimes are curbed by courts, but that does not mean they will agree with the courts at any point. ys pd

DD: Bombay BBT is not going to destroy these books. However, they also print original GITA and bhagavatams. I bought a set 2002.

P1: My final point on this mess is that the BBT can show thier hoods to Jitarati but never bite. I did not agree with the GBC when they took the completion of Srimad Bhagavatum away from Pradumnaya Prabhu. They may be as they often quoted or brainwashing everyone ...as the ultimate governing authority but In NO WAY can their meager vision see clearer that Lord Chaitanyas empowered Nitya Siddhi devotee is Srila Prabhupada, and that stopping the order of the Acarya ruins the GBC and the BBT, even Gopipranadana Prabhu blessed the work of the Ping Pong Swami. Which disciples of Srila Prabhupada feels Srila Prabhupada is pleased with the changing of his book?

Which one of you would like to stand before Srila Prabhupada and ask His Divine Grace how pleased he is over expelling Pradumnaya Prabhu and fiddling with his words? The whole point that Krishna Consciousness is preformed to please Guru and Gouranga has been lost in ISKCON and taken over by (honest?) thieves.
They sell ISKCON properties and open Swiss Bank Accounts to Hide the stolen Booty and wash donations for politicians.

KN: Yeah! well said.

CD: You are sorely mistaken. Dravida and Jaya Advaita Swami have continued to edit Srila Prabhupada's books, including SB. It has also been proven over and over, and over again, that there is NO direct ORDER from Srila Prabhupada for JAS to edit his books.

Today when we refer to Srila Prabhupada's edited books, we are referring to all the unnecessary edits. For instance, if you take the original SB and read from it, and have someone else read from the most recent edited version, you will be totally shocked at the changes.

I have the original 3 volumes from the trunk Srila Prabhupada brought over from India. I also have the original volumes that Srila Prabhupada read from in the classes he gave daily. I bought a set of SB's for my son who lives in NC several years ago, not knowing that they had been changed. He reads to me over the phone from those SB's and I have the original BBT books that Srila Prabhupada sanctioned. So, when my son reads from the later edited versions, and I follow along with the editions sanctioned by Srila Prabhupada (before JAS & Dravida prabhus edited); the changes are so numerous that any devout follower of Srila Prabhupada would be in total disbelief over all the unnecessary changes.

Seriously, you cannot understand unless you can get a hold of a first printed BBT edition (although apparently you can't anymore) and these edited versions. This is why most devotees are so in the dark over the big hoopla over the changes. You cannot clearly see and understand until you do exactly what my son and I have done. And this was all circumstantial. When we first began reading some time back, I was totally unaware that there were any changes in the books. This clearly is a serious matter, and should not be taken lightly. In this thread, I am not talking about the BG, which is another matter unto itself.

DD: “On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant for bringing about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literature, even though irregularly composed, is heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.” SB 1.5.11

KN: They are dreaming! They will be breaking contract with KBI. And thus they will be ruled against . such 3rd class mentality.

Robert Grant: Only Demons destroy Srila Prabhupada's books - and I do not believe anyone in BBT would ever do that, which appears to makes this all absurd.

P1: JItarati's reply after I was sent a doc by Goura Prabhu. Goura sent me some thing from India's BBT saying they will not destroy the books, but who knows.

DD: Does this extreme editing count?

SD: As Smara Hari says, it's simply an emotional appeal.

DD: The sets in question omit 10-11-12 canto done by Hrdayananda and Krishna West. The bombay BBT also prints original gita and SB. i bought a set 2002 from Bombay BBT.

Smra Hari: DD, I have never read the verse by verse of cantos 10-11-12 that completed Srila Prabhuoada's incomplete Srimad Bhagvat Purāṇa. Does it have Krishna West style illustrations with contemporary fashion clothes as sported by Chandra Sekhar prabhu?

PADA: First of all, the books have already been destroyed de facto. They are being edited way beyond simple grammar. For example, Srila Prabhupada says "We all have an eternal relationship with Krishna," and Jayadvaita changed that to "one has an eternal relationship with Krishna." If a kindergarten child mistook "we" for "one" he would flunk kindergarten. 

Jayadvaita also says gurus are often debauchees, and this is the person we want to edit the books of the acharyas? There are really countless examples of many types wrong editing things, where editing went way beyond fixing a few grammar points and worse, its sometimes being changed to BAD GRAMMAR. 

A person who says gurus are often debauchees is also not qualified to edit any Vedic writings, period. As for Krishna West, they said that Kirtanananda and Bhavananda are great acharyas in their SB edition. Great judgement there? 

Meanwhile, devotees who did not want changed books were kicked out of one temple, and so they started their own program, and they are now getting more people to go their program than the temple gets. Now some temple folks are saying they are competing demons and so forth. Anyone who wants to read Srila Prabhupada's books, and not Jayadvaita's, is a demon? 

Why is the mentality going on still after all the beatings and murders this type demonizing people thing caused already? Some other devotees, who are book distributors, were kicked out of Gainesville because they did not want to use changed books. It seems to me that this is the latest way to start kicking out a whole new wave of devotees. Why is the GBC always figuring out yet another reason to kick out more devotees, after Lokanatha swami said in 1988, the temples are ghost towns? 

We want to now get rid of the teeny few left? Why? Why not stop all these changes and allow people to accept the original books, worship the original acharya, and not have people lecturing that gurus are often falling debauchees, which was never preached by any acharyas? All of this is changing the whole process, and changing the books is part of it. In sum, everything is being changed, and the books are merely one more example of these changes. Did we forget to mention that no famous author has his books re-edited after he departs physically? ys pd

AA: I agree, I want one set of ORIGINAL Srimad Bhagavatam.

PADA: Right, well what happened here is that some devotees were booted out of the ISKCON temples because they did not want to worship fallen people as their acharya, and they wanted original books. So they started a small temple in and when they held their last Janmastami, they had about 7,000 guests, who had to be streamed in single file, there was a line three blocks long. 

Our associates in Vancourver were also kicked out after they wanted to know why they had to offer bhoga to a GBC manager, and not to the acharya, and they wanted original books. They also have a nice program. And of course the GBC has spent $20,000,000 suing the Bangalore devotees, so they can make a ghost town out of their program, but they have not had much luck, the courts have not favored the GBC side very well and the GBC agents have been charged with contempt, fraud, theft, document manipulation etc. 

Meanwhile the whole GBC is now saying that Krishna's guru successors are crooks, who steal temple buildings, as they are saying about their Brooklyn guru. So now they are telling their congregations that Krishna's guru successors are sometimes crooked thieves who have to be taken to court for fraud, in addition to their acharyas already having problems with illicit sex and so on. Jayadvaita is heading this up, he is actively saying that his guru line contains crooks who should not steal buildings. 

Why are they saying gurus are crooks, after they first of all said gurus are illicit sex deviants? So again, anyone who says gurus are sexual predators, crooks, thieves, deviants, and orchestrators of crimes, should not be re-writing the Vedas. And why doesn't BBT India know that people who say acharyas are often debauchees, thieves, sexual predators and crooks -- should not be in charge of editing their sacred books? ys pd

DD: What does Krishna say? How does the message get lost? By changing it!

PADA: Exactly, that is what Krishna says, the message is lost and I have to reappear yuge yuge, how is it lost? Its changed ...

RS: Devotee's fighting devotee's, founded by JAS.

KV: Damn your materialistic laws and legal justifications. This is Srila Prabhupada's books we're talking about for Krishna's sake? Do you even know what Srila Prabhupada said when He wrote down these books for us ... He said "These books, it's not me who's writing them, it's Sri Krsna whose guiding me to write these books." 

And now the current BBT thinks itself to be even greater than Srila Prabhupada that they want to go so low that they'll even dare to destroy Srila Prabhupada's original books, His writings? Please don't forget that these books are matchless gifts, so matchless that one cannot even reach to the level of a part of a dust particle of these original books.These so materialistic courts and there so called materialistic rules will decide that what will happen to Srila Prabhupada's original books? 

You've got to be joking. I guess some people need to get there priorities clear 1st of all and than say something about it. Srila Prabhupada is a Maha Mahabhagavata. Clear cut order He gave, "please don't change my books"..And here we are fighting over it.

DD: Bombay bbt will not destroy books. They'll print original gita and SB also. Its a matter of SP wanting the BBT TO PRINT HIS BOOKS. As bbt gives 50% for building temples and 50% for books. If someone prints books and undercuts bbt it will be finished. India has built 65 temples.

DD: I would not personally add a period to SP books. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

KV: Srila Prabhupada said, "enough temples have been made,now go and make devotees." Seems like we're just concentrating on making temples rather than devotees. And where is the question of undercut? Why can't The BBT distribute only Srila Prabhupada's books that He wrote rather than a revised version which seems more Biblical in language and concept? Why is it that Srila Prabhupada said this changing issue as a "Western disease"? If it is such a case.. than I do guess there is indeed something wrong going on here..

DD: Both are going on in many parts of the world.

KV: Right..And what are those devotees getting? Not the original copies of Srila Prabhupada but revised version in majority ... I am not talking about stopping of the temple programs anywhere. But books, Srila Prabhupada's original books, His Original mercy.. That's what is more important. "Books are the basis" Srila Prabhupada!

DD: As i said i would not change even 1 period.

KV: I know that prabhu..you won't. But others DID! You see?That's where the problem arises ... Whatever the indirect facts prabhu! Why not just stick to the originality. That's what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Just stick to the plan, stick to my books and you'll get Krishna! That's my guarantee. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. This is Srila Prabhupada we are talking about, his original writings, original facts, everything head to toe, original. Direct blessings of Srila Prabhupada. 100% guarantee. My main emphasis is on just maintaining and distribution of just the original books.. Millions and millions of copies and their distribution all over the world. Direct blessings to everyone and that too in its original form.. 

If somebody else wants to write a book, they may write other books but if there acharya has written a book, then preserve it and distribute it. Don't the un-original version and distribute. One may write other lilas other books according to ones realization and understanding but not those tikas or versions which were given by the Acharya Himself and that too when the acharya has refused to change His original books. But at least they are very minutely available now a days and that's a fact prabhu.

JD: HARE KRSNA -- Make this issue VIRAL ___ PLEASE --Thank You---

PADA: According to Jayadvaita swami's writings, he says GBC gurus and acharyas are often falling into illicit sex with men, women and children, and the BBT has built 65 temples where they worship his debauchee's acharya program? And worse, they are openly preaching to children that God's successors are often debauchees. 

So this is amazing, we need to fund a program that worships illicit sex with men, women and children as their gurus, parampara members, and acharyas, using Srila Prabhupada's funds? When did Srila Prabhupada say the BBT needs to fund the worship of illicit sex as ISKCON's diksha gurus and parampara members? And now Jayadvaita is openly preaching that acharyas are even criminals who steal buildings from Krishna, like his acharya is doing in Brooklyn. 

We need 65 temples -- where it is being preached that God's gurus / successors / acharyas are criminals who have to be taken to court for fraud? And where is the money coming from to spend $20,000,000 to sue the Prabhupadanugas in India? Why are they spending all this money on lawyers and not books? And why is it, the person who says acharyas are often debauchees, is hand selected to re-write Prabhupada's books by the BBT? 65 temples that tell children God's successors are often debauchees, and funds changing the books, and this is what Srila Prabhupada wanted to fund with his books money? ys pd

GH: I am going to a festival in Alachua ...

PADA: Unfortunately, the Alachua / Gainesville temple folks kicked out some of our devotees who wanted to distribute original books there. So a lot of the community there seems to have fallen sway to the Jayadvaita-ized view of Krishna consciousness, i.e. that acharyas are defective, if not debauchees, if not criminals, and therefore -- we need to re-write all their books. 

This is the same relativized acharya process that destroyed the Gaudiya Matha. And Jayadvaita also chastised some devotees recently for chanting Srila Prabhupada's pranam name at the samsara prayers, and he asked in his lecture, why in the hell are we chanting Prabhupada's name? Indeed! And this is the person Alachua temple gives the speaking floor to, the book changer personified, and the guy who wonders why in hell people worship the pure devotee. 

Jayadvaita swami: "So, when someone who’s not Prabhupadas direct disciple, begins by offering pranam mantra to Prabhupada, my hearing takes a beating. I think: ’What’s wrong with this person?!”

"But at least: don’t start with Prabhupada pranams mantra. You’re totally contrary to the tradition, if you do that. The next thing that disturbs me, sometimes we hear, right in the middle of Samasara dava ‘jaya Prabhupada, Jaya’…

"What the hell is that?! Samsara dava is not the Prabhupada song! It’s the guru song… which doesn’t mean the founder acharya of ISKCON. Samsara dava is not the Prabhupada song.

"And therefore it even disturbs me when, you know, they finish the… dhyāyam stuvaḿs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaḿvande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam.. ‘jaya Prabhupada jaya’… as again if it was the Prabhupada song.

"If you want to think of Prabhupada during that song, that’s fine, but it’s not… What if somebody else is thinking of his guru? God forbid! Then you’ve spoiled his meditation. Because you’re thinking it’s the Prabhupada song.

You don’t need to chant ‘Jaya Prabhupada’ at any point. 

PADA: And this is the person Alachua community allows to speak there? Srila Prabhupada's pranam, what the hell is that? Indeed!

P1: JAS got this idea, that the 11 are acharyas, from Naranaya Maharaja 2 days after Srila Prabhupada physically departed in an istagoshi at Krishna Balarama Temple of which I was witness. NM said the 11 are acharyas and they should be worshiped as assisting the gopis etc. Since that confirmation by these GM those iniating in ISKCON act as if they are Uttam Adikari and demand worship as such.

PADA:  The samsara prayers only apply to the pure devotee, and no one else. To imply that conditioned souls are directly "assisting the gopis" and so on, is sahajiya vada. The point is, JAS and Narayana Maharaja think conditioned souls should have equal glorification as acharyas, i.e. acharyas are conditioned souls, i.e. we need to re-write all their books ... ys pd

https://theharekrishnamovement.org/.../disciple-never.../

Disciple Never Becomes Equal to Guru

The following conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Mr. Malhotra recorded in Poona, December 22,…

THEHAREKRISHNAMOVEMENT.ORG

DD: Directly assisting the gopis? Therefore you have to take shelter of the spiritual master who has seen Him.

Srila Prabhupada..."As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down. Yasya prasādād ... Despite a very rigid life in devotional service, SB 5.12.14

PADA: WORD FOR WORD // Saksat--directly; hari-tvena--with the quality of Hari; samasta-- all; sastraih--by scriptures; uktah--acknowledged, tatha--thus; bhavyate--is considered; eva--also; sadbhih--by great saintly persons; kintu--however; prabhoh--to the Lord; yah--who; priyah-- dear; eva--certainly; tasya--of him (the guru); vande--I offer obeisances; guroh--of my spiritual master; sri-carana-aravindam--unto the lotus feet. 

The guru has the same qualities as Hari. Whereas Jayadvaita says his gurus are often falling into illicit sex with men, women and children. Why is he allowed to be teaching all over the planet that gurus are defective souls, this is one of the ten offenses to the holy name, to consider guru is ordinary. And since guru is an ordinary man, we can change his books .... ys pd]

P1: The BBT had a person chosen by Srila Prabhupada to finish His Divine Graces Srimad Bhagavatam, aka Pradyumna. But because he pointed out very early on that they were officiating acarya s proxy for His Divine Grace; And Srila Prabhupadas position is Like Srila Ramanuja Acaya to always be kept at the main position of worship, that is why we are in the mess we are today

IF YOU OFFER BHOGA TO SRILA PRABHUPADA'S DISCIPLES THAT BOGA REMAINS BOGA we are not rati keli nikunja juno, Radhey Keli siddhas! If Srila Prabhupadas disciples follow His Divine Grace like his agents cent per cent channeling his order then yes they can do. But very few will ever reach there.
What things were done by young men in thier 20s and 30s can be forgiven and corrected but as we are now in last stages of our lives must be corrected or FACTUALLY horrible suffering will befall tho that struggle to follow an unauthorized system.

PADA: Right, to say that Pradyumna should be removed, after he was made the "best person available" to do the future translation, is another sign they thought Srila Prabhupada is an ordinary man, so his orders can be changed. Prabhupada also said, do not change my books, so all of these changes are due to their thinking that guru is ordinary ... so we can change his books, change his orders, etc.

RS: HARI HARI BOL,

RR: Who would want to live in a lskcon temple? There is no pure guru there since 1977, and no love and affection. You can chant hare krishna anywhere and any time who needs corrupt institutions anyway? Even srila prabhupada said one day all these temples will be gone but the maha mantra is always there. bhaktivinode thakura said always preach nama hata not big big temples!

P1: No, it's not like that as long as one has taken Srila Prabhupada's instructions as their life and soul naturally they are in ISKCON where ever they serve His Divine Grace within his temples or not, where ever His order to chant 16 malas of japa is daily preformed.

Jaya Radha Madhava // Krishna Bhajan (Video)

Disciple Never Equals Guru

https://theharekrishnamovement.org/2017/05/27/disciple-never-becomes-equal-to-guru/

Brooklyn Temple Sale Meeting (Video)

https://vimeo.com/218503909


The GBC has to meet in the Brooklyn library, because they will also be kicked out of the Brooklyn temple, hee hee! The GBC has handed over ISKCON to the bogus "Bharati Society," so the GBC has legally given away ISKCON. And now they apparently cannot get it back.

Told ya!

And now, they have to sue and take to court -- their own guru Romapada? Hah hah, they have to hire lawyers to check their bogus gurus! That means there is no GBC, there are maverick independent fools posing as acharyas, and the GBC enabled this deviation in the first place, and now they cannot control their gurus -- without "legal courts and attorneys." 

Gaudiya Math pt. II! 

And! What about the hundreds of devotees who left ISKCON NYC because they were basically banned by Romapada? Oh boo hoo, there are not enough people to manage the building, well duh, you kicked them all out! And now the GBC people are calling all this their "responsible governance."

And what about the ex-Seattle deities that are now living under a carport, is that another example of your guys "responsible managing"?

ys pd

BBTI Lawsuit Update RE: Bhima Das

http://www.iskcon-truth.com/bhagavatam-set/bhima-copyrights.html

Srimad Bhagavatam 05.25 (Audio Reading)

Poison Issue Removed from "Prabhupada" Forum (Nityananda das)

DISCUSSION ON SRILA PRABHUPADA POISON EVIDENCE BANNED, REMOVED

ALL TRUTH PASSES THROUGH THREE STAGES: “First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”---Mahatma Gandhi

“The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it.” Ayn Rand

One meditation: All the facts in the world don't add up to Truth. And even Truth Itself won't set us free until we realize it through purification and detachment.

There is a nice closed Facebook group composed of over 800 original Srila Prabhupada disciples, and they have discussed many of the issues facing the Hare Krishna movement today, such as the child abuse, the book changes, etc.

[PADA: Yep well this forum is "closed" for a reason, they want to exclude people like myself from bringing up "the controversies." And for that matter, these same folks have closed us off for 35 years, which is why we had to make our own independent forums of information distribution.

Worse! Some of these same people, like for example Uttama sloka, were defending the GBC's gurus not that long ago, and he says Srila Prabhupada's idea that we originated with Krishna leela is bogus, and he banned and blocked me for pointing that out. 

He says we did not originate with Krishna, which Srila Prabhupada said is "tinged with Mayavada." Then again Uttamasloka also says the ritviks are bogus, and we have to accepted his various and sundry "living gurus" instead. How is that working out for these folks? On the other hand there are many forums and devotees who accept all of our points, so its better to help arm them with information and go ahead without the naysayers.]

But when the new hour-long video about the forensic breakthrough into Srila Prabhupada’s poisoning was released on YouTube 18 days ago (5450 views now), the discussions in this group became turbulent and emotional. Some members had copied me excerpts from the discussions, and I could see that there was a significant lack of facts and understanding of the evidence and history in the matter of Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance pastimes. 

I recalled that I had been invited to join a couple of years ago, so I wrote and asked if I could join, but that I would commit in advance to be humble, polite, and simply answer questions and address objections to the issue. I even offered to remain outside and filter answers and facts on the case through the administrators before being posted. 

This idea was discussed and for the first time in their history, it was necessary to take a vote on a new member joining, and it was rejected. The administrators had private discussions with Naveen Krishna das and myself, and were very interested in the new forensic evidence and hoped the group could discuss it peacefully. But last night all hell broke out, and heated discussions turned into… well, it’s explained below in the post which someone forwarded.

There are a number of things here-

(1). Would it be better to restrict those members who cannot maintain their decorum and allow the rest to discuss a very important topic? Or do the majority of members really want to avoid this matter to this degree?

(2). Why do some become more excited about the “poison theory” than devotee murder, child abuse, book changes, and so on?

(3). What is the core fear that some devotees have that just drives them bananas when they hear that new evidence has been found confirming Srila Prabhupada’s poisoning?

Your servant, Nityananda das

Uttamasloka Dasa‎ to Srila Prabhupada's Disciples, My Godbrothers & Godsisters

THE POISON ISSUE ALERT.

Dear godbrothers and godsisters of the sanga,

As you all know by now, there was a VOTE going on in our Srila Prabhupada’s Disciples sanga that was to determine whether our sanga members desired to view and discuss Nityananda das’s recent YOUTUBE video titled “Kill Guru, Become Guru.” The video claims to offer new forensic evidence surrounding the departure of our beloved gurudev, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada 40 years ago.

Since the ‘VOTE’ post went up there has been some ‘unbridled’ dialog that has crossed the line into aparadha against our fellow members, and our Godbrother Nityananda das, and has threatened to affect adversely those on both (or all) sides of the issue.

Due to the divisive nature of this ‘emotional’ subject matter, and out of respect for everyone involved –we have come to the conclusion that the discussion is going nowhere. It's a stalemate as it is evident that no one on either side will convince anyone on the other side. That much seems to be very clear. We feel that a fair compromise would be to suggest, for those who DO want to investigate this serious topic further, to personally contact Nityananda das, who is the one person who can explain and adequately answer all the speculations and questions that have arisen. Here is his eMail...

srigovinda@gmail.com

Due to the complexity and gravity of the issue, we feel that this is the best for all concerned. We have delete all related threads about this topic from both sides, so please DO NOT post anything more about this topic in our group. 

Thank you.

Your servants, Gauradas, Sarvani dasi, Uttamadloka das

ONE RESPONSE I RECEIVED: I agree that their so-called reunion is an illusion. 

Bottom line: we can tolerate naked women, binge smoking hippies, beef eaters, tantric sex addicts, mayavadis, impersonalists, whore mongers, crazy music and all the rest but they despise the "poison believers" who are even the most feared and hated by the "poison deniers" policy of ISKCON. Maybe some devotees tolerate iskcon leadership because they hope to remain in good standing until they can get their act together enough to get elected to a post of guruship? 

Others simply want to easy living arrangements or cash flow opportunities, or have vital connections within ISKCON, like friends, relatives. Others may just not have thought about these things very much… Even when presented with the hair test results, they still want to remain asleep. Red pill or blue?

[PADA: Yep, they are compromised, which is why the child abuse, book changes, beatings, murders, lawsuits and all the rest of it came about, the leaders did not deal with these issues, and the rank and file for the most part did not deal with these issues either. So, it went into the public and so forth, which is still our best avenue for forwarding these issues. ys pd] 

Bhakti Vikas Swami Failed the $400,000,000 Test?

Bhakti Vikasa Maharaj, There is a Dire Need of Examples of Humility

BY: SANAKA RSI DAS

May 21, 2017 — UK

Maharaj, I think we have finally found some common ground. You wrote:

"But there can be no discussion when someone is so convinced that he is right that he won't give an inch and resorts to ad hominem attacks. However noble the cause, zeal in pursuing it must be tempered with openness and humility – a willingness to admit that there might be another side of the story, and possibly to adjust one's stance – otherwise it can become an inquisition."

[PADA: The first wave of ad hominem attacks occurred when people like myself and Sulochana tried to point out that there was an abuse program going on under the BVKS's GBC's management. This lead to us being physically threatened and eventually the murder of Sulochana. Yet the main persons involved in the GBC's regime are still in charge, such as Radhanath, Kuladri, Devamrita, Jayapataka, Hari Sauri, Bhakti Vikas swami and so on. 

Worse, the dead carcass of a big regime leader aka Kirtananda swami has been buried in the holy dham by prominent members of the BVKS GBC. Worse, these people orchestrated conditions that lead to a $400,000,000 lawsuit for rampant abuse, neglect, exploitation and so forth, and BVKS is now trying to make some sort of apparent justification for the behaviors that lead to this lawsuit. He learned nothing from this giant lawsuit? The karmis are more advanced than he is, because they understood the problem better than BVKS?]     

SRD: I noticed that in the same paragraph where you accuse me of making ad hominem attacks, you very kindly took the trouble to highlight some of my shortcomings… I was wondering whether this would constitute an ad hominem attack? Do we have a case of the kettle calling the pot black??? I'm not sure, I'll let you decide. At any rate, you are quite correct, my lack of humility has been a problem for many, many lives. I pray that before this one is over I will have made some progress in this regard.

The more people I meet, the more I become convinced that humility is a quality at risk of extinction. Thank you for taking the trouble to mention it. The plain truth is that I am flawed in more ways than you point out. Growing up in gurukulas I didn't have role models of open mindedness and humility, and for now I'll blame it on that.

After all, if you find it acceptable that Bhaktividyapurna Maharaj blames his inadequacies on his victims, then surely you won't see any problem with me blaming my karma and conditioning on someone else, wouldn't you agree? This approach may not be very helpful for my long term spiritual progress, but on the upside, for now it feels quite reassuring to my ego.

And… I also wish I could say that the cause you are championing is noble. For some unfortunate reason, you seem to have embarked on a mission to protect the inquisitors ...

I am struggling to understand whether you have a comprehensive and insightful understanding of this complex issue that you wish to share, or whether you embarked on this discussion just to try and exonerate your friend Bhaktividyapurna maharaj from his wrongdoings …

In my last article I presented a quote where Prabhupada quite clearly explains that a person that resorts to beating children is unfit as a teacher. Srila Prabhupada never sanctioned the sort of brutal beatings Bhaktividyapurna inflicted on his students. The fact that in your estimation, someone with his history is not only qualified to teach, but also is some sort of role model in education, brings into question your authority to speak on this subject matter and your sense of discernment.

[PADA: And its amazing that despite losing a $400,000,000 lawsuit, they still think their behaviors were basically doing the right thing. That means even the karmi courts have a better idea of how to manage children than these guys?]

"So if there is beating of child, that will be difficult for him to accept in loving spirit, and when he is old enough he may want to go away--that is the danger. So why these things are going on _ marching and chanting japa, insufficient milk, too strict enforcement of time schedules, hitting the small children? Why these things are being imposed? Why they are inventing these such new things like marching and japa like army? What can I do from such a distant place?" 

(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Bhanutanya – Hyderabad, 18 November, 1972)

[PADA: Yep, prophetic indeed, according to some of our ex-kuli associates, 99 percent of the kulis have abandoned ISKCON, many fled to the Gaudiya Matha and other programs, but they will never work with the ISKCON leaders for their role in orchestrating the abuse regime. And now that BVKS is trying to defend the abusive regime and its big henchmen, this will alienate even more folks ...]

Srila Prabhupada's words are prophetic: we have seen too many second generation Vaisnavas walk away precisely due to the reasons he warned about. He instructions on how he wants children to be treated reveals his disappointment, and the difficulties he experienced in getting the teachers to follow his instructions.

I understand the larger context of this discussion to be the use of corporal punishment in education, within the Hare Krsna society, hopefully taking into account its history and culture.

You seem to believe that it is advisable to make an allowance for corporal punishment in ISKCON, disregarding the dozens of instances where Srila Prabhupada gave clear and direct instructions against its use and years of documented abuse of excessive corporal punishment.

As I have already mentioned, your endorsement of corporal punishment has been far greater than Srila Prabhupada's, and your objection to its use much weaker. I would not be surprised if in the future, some of your disciples will use this exchange to claim that you actually championed its use. This risk is that much greater, if we consider that you are yet to clarify when and how exactly you see it fit to use corporal punishment.

In one of your earlier articles you wrote: "I generally do not recommend it, although in some form it might sometimes be employed". This is WAY too vague! You have just left the door wide open for your followers to use corporal punishment whenever they deem it appropriate.

In your last article you claim that you are not championing to institute corporal punishment. Though it sure seems like that's precisely what you have been doing all along. 

At present, the use of corporal punishment in any form is banned in ISKCON. At least officially. If the official policy was changed to accommodate for your views, as I currently understand them, that would necessarily result in an allowance to use corporal punishment as a disciplinary option.

[PADA: Wow, BVKS wants to return to the good old days when the stick was being used as a big source of "educating children" ...]

This is one of those instances where there is no middle ground. Being in favour of "some" corporal punishment in a society that forbids it, means that you are championing its use. You can't be vegetarian "sometimes".

If you are going to sanction the use of corporal punishment, you then have the responsibility to give a microscopically detailed description of when and how you believe it can and cannot be used. Otherwise it will be abused.

The reason I shared the account of my experience with ear twisting was to make the point that if you say that something, even as harmless sounding as ear twisting, is a sanctioned and acceptable form of corporal punishment, you must take into account that if you twist that ear hard enough it will rip off.

You must also assume that even if you give VERY specific details on how to apply it, someone will likely abuse it. The same goes for any form of corporal punishment.

We also have a similar problem with your statements regarding Indradyumna Maharaj and Bhaktividyapurna Maharaj's interactions with women and children.

Your tolerant endorsement of Indradyumna Maharaj's interactions with women and your silence about Bhaktividyapurna Maharaj are inconsistent with your later statement, "I certainly agree that everyone, especially sannyasis, should be extremely careful in dealing with women and children". The rules of sannyasa ashram are clear to everyone, except perhaps to certain swamis it would seem. If you endorse their interactions with women and young girls, you are necessarily championing for a change in the standards of the sannyasa ashram.

Given the importance of these topics (corporal punishment and sannyasa standards), I repeat my request:

Once and for all, would you kindly make a clear statement about your position on these issues? Ideally one that leaves no room for personal interpretation and political ambiguity!

We have one conversation where Srila Prabhupada agreed to use corporal punishment, against an overwhelming amount of instances where he spoke strongly against it, and you also seem to agree that the outcome of that one conversation has been abused.

Srila Prabhupada is an intelligent and practical person who on occasion, adapted his instructions as new information became available. Had he been made aware of the savage and sadistic abuse that has been inflicted on his cherished Vaishnava children, following from that one conversation, he may well have retracted it altogether. Obviously there is no way to know for certain, but taking into account his overall stance, it is reasonable to assume that he might have… but some will naturally perceive this suggestion as blasphemous.

Maharaj, your presentation has been disingenuous and manipulative. I did not say that you quoted out of context because the quotes you provided were not relevant to the conversation, as you suggested. But rather because you have provided an edited version of the conversation, that created a slanted perspective.

You say that Srila Prabhupada "advised" beating a boy, which is misleading. That's clearly not Srila Prabhupada's focus/emphasis in that conversation, UNLESS you take those sentences out of their context… which is precisely what you have done.

You seem to believe that somehow the Hindi portion of that conversation is unrelated to the rest. Essentially you are trying to take it out of its context, as if the fact that Prabhupada spoke that part in Hindi makes it a new conversation that took place in a different time, space and context, which is nonsense.

But what is perhaps your biggest blunder, is that you failed to inform the readers that the transcript of the conversation you provided in your article was an edited collage of different bits of the same conversation that you had selectively pieced together so as to create a version that incidentally happens to be more supportive of your agenda than the actual exchange that took place.

You presented a tampered quote that is more supportive of your agenda, but that does not adequately describe the exchange that took place.

This is the edited version you quoted:

Jagadisa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. (1st time Jagadish suggests beating)

Prabhupada: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Murkhasya lathyausadhih. ["The medicine for a fool is a stick."] (1st time Srila Prabhupada suggests an alternative solution and beating)

Prabhupada: Ha! Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao. Usko matti khodne ka kaam do; nahi kare to usko pito, aise kiya jaaye. /Yes. Send him to (the ISKCON farm at) Hyderabad, make him work. Give him digging work. If he refuses, thrash him, that is the way to do it.] ["pito" means "severely beat"] (2nd time Srila Prabhupada suggests an alternative solution and beating)

Jagadisa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. (2nd time Jagadish suggests beating)

Prabhupada: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, in digging. (3rd time Srila Prabhupada consents to beating and offers his alternate suggestion)

The complete and unedited version of this conversation along with the entire audio can be consulted here on Vanipedia. In your edited version, you only included 2 out of the 3 times when Jagadish requested Prabhupada to consent to beating the boy.

Your skewed version of the conversation conveys the notion that Srila Prabhupada was more inclined to use corporal punishment than Jagadish, which is definitely not the case. In doing so you diminished the role that Jagadish played in directing the course of the conversation, thus increasing Srila Prabhupada's (you only quoted 2 instances where Jagadish pushed to beat the boy, whereas you quoted Srila Prabhupada consenting 3 times).

And while you mentioned every instance where Srila Prabhupada agreed to the use of corporal punishment (3 times), you only included 3 instances (out of 13) where he offered an alternative solution. These 3 instances you included are not even proportionally representative of his far greater disposition towards alternative solutions!

By only quoting 3 out of the 13 instances where Srila Prabhupada offered alternatives you have fabricated a distorted account of the events that indicates that Srila Prabhupada was as equally disposed towards the use of corporal punishment as he was towards alternatives. (You quoted 3 instances where he consented to the use of corporal punishment and 3 instances where he offered alternatives)

These are the reasons why I believe that you quoted your spiritual master out of context. You have done something similar with Bg 9.30 and with the way you quoted the ear twisting incident from the video in your class. You quote what suits your narrative and conveniently cut out the rest.

At this point I feel the need to mention that you shouldn't let my lack of humility be a hindrance to your own exercise of openness and humility. In fact, I was hoping that as the senior devotee here, you could/would, offer a practical example on how to practice these noble precepts.

It would be incredibly helpful if you will have the courage, purity and forthrightness to offer an example of open minded humility by publicly acknowledging the gravity of this misrepresentation of your spiritual master. I assure you that this would be far more valuable than more word-jugglery, misquotes and half-truths to defend the beating of Vaisnava children.

In closing, I wanted to mention that IF one or more of your disciples have been compiling these articles for you, I suggest that you either fire or replace them. The clarity in presentation and the substance of your arguments have been consistently poor; they really don't present you in a good light. I imagine that as a Vedic swami you may not be very concerned with modern karmi perspectives. But, given that you are signing these articles, I thought I would mention that in the academic world, that would be considered plagiarism, which would be widely regarded as unethical and dishonest.

P.S. Regarding the point raised by Krsna dasi about the responsibility of parents, in principle I fully agree with it. Ultimately nobody is more responsible for children than their parents and they need to be encouraged to take more responsibility for their children. I do feel, however, that she presents an overly simplistic approach to the situation.

Many parents are young and inexperienced about life, and the history of ISKCON education, and rightly or wrongly, they look to spiritual authorities such as Bhakti Vikasa Swami to set the standards and for guidance on parenting and education. If these authorities endorse the use of corporal punishment or other misconceptions, parents will be less likely to object when their kids get beaten up. And as perplexing as this may sound, historically many ISKCON parents have proven that they couldn't be trusted with the education and protection of their children. This is where the element of social responsibility comes into the picture.

This is not to exonerate or disempower parents, but rather to try and create a social infrastructure that may offer assistance and support to parents.

Another point to consider is that nowadays, the greatest challenges faced by ISKCON child protection are mainly in third world countries, where the police tends to be unreliable and easily corrupted, and where the American model suggested by Krsna dasi is not very relevant, and would be difficult to implement for many cultural and practical reasons.

[PADA: This is a good question, why did so many parents think me and Sulochana were crazy cranks, and they would not help us address the child abuse problem? And when they found out, they did not report it to the police, and so on and so forth? Yes, many of them are implicated in enabling, empowering, acquiescing the corruption in many instances. This is another issue that has not been discussed threadbare, or hardly at all to date ... 

So the ISKCON leaders (who will not remove the abuse regime leaders), many parents, basically everyone who was an adult at the time, cannot see that after being sued for $400,000,000, they did the wrong thing?

ys pd]