P1: Dear Smara Hari, you are wrong dead wrong on changing these books, so now comes the time where the rice is separated from the paddy. Clearly Krishna comes to test Our understanding of Dharma.
These books were for export. BBT-I declared Srila Prabhupada as their hired employee / translator, and they lost their exclusive program for printing of the original editions, now they prefer to print ones where their translator sannyasi is an expert on ping pong player, and he is chummy with the ladies, and he likes chanting japa in his head, and he teaches us not to wear tilok and dhoti and kurta as its Islamic deviation etc.
Because of the BBT-I changing Srila Prabhupada's books and other changes, 99% of our training ashrams in America are non existent. So even if we read the watered down versions, updated to so-called attract the new or younger folks, they are no where to be found. The changed books do not attract people. And worse, there is nowhere for them to be trained in Krishna Consciousness in America anyway. Are you expecting to retire to Vrindaban and to do so preferring to ignore history?
Smara Hari: Hmmm seems I have touched a sore spot by my opinions. My point is simply that Jitarati does not have legal permission to print the books. Your emotional appeal to the Facebook devotee community will certainly not influence BBT India in their decision to block his delivery. Of course you may cry foul but this will not result in Jiturati prabhu getting his books. But it's a clever try.
Good luck.
Let's discuss the outcome in a few months when you are less passionate.
Hari Bol.
P1: When you attack Jitarati with lies what do you expect? If someone said to me lies about you I would do the same.
Smara Hari: I am not aware if you know I went to law school to study for a degree in Law. Thus the legal aspects of this copywrite infringement case entrigue me. The temperature of emotive feeling is not a factor I ever pay heed to. There are clear legal issues being tested. I have had a friendly relationship with Hansdutta for decades. Since mid 70's .....so 40+ years.
In California he personally told me that he was very displeased by the outcome of the BBT Trustee case that he was involved in on account of the devotee lawyer having written in to the small print of his retainer contract that he would be richly remunerated if the case was won by Hansadutta, though on the surface it appeared that the lawyer was working pro bona (without fees).
Thus Hansadutta lost all the money from the damages he was awarded .....as part of the BBT settlement. So an aspect of this case that intrigues me is the degree to which Hansadutta is willing to support Jitarati in his claim for legitimacy in printing.
Hansadutta being somewhat estranged from the group that presently claim to hold the license to print BBT books.......which seems to be a point that BBT strongly protest.
[PADA: This is wrong. Gupta always said that he was not doing this case pro bono and he would be taking some payment. Hansadutta did not want to pay his lawyer properly, and that is typical of him, he wants everything for free. And now he says the deities his goondas stole from Seattle can be returned -- only if we give him $1,000,000. He has no idea how to settle monetary issues sensibly. Gupta has expenses just like everyone else and he simply cannot afford to work for free.]
Smara Hari: Veda Guhya prabhu informed me in Vrindaban recently of his emormous printing output. But he referred to 'pieces of literature' in which category he includes leaflets such as the one on chanting Hare Krishna etc.
if you check you will find that 8 million books have not been printed (yet).
if you check you will find that 8 million books have not been printed (yet).
Sarva-drik Das, prabhu, unless I am entirely misinformed the court case, in which Hansadutta was given permission to print was created by BBT legally objecting to Hansadutta's scanning and printing of a book in Chinese language.
There has not been .....to my knowlege .....a 'wholesale editing' court case.......but please do keep me informed as to updates in this area.
V Dasa: Jitarati printed these Bhagavatams under KBI license. Veda Guhya, the printer and Jitarati all know that and evidence supporting this has been given to the court.
KV: Damn your materialistic laws and legal justifications. This is Srila Prabhupada's books, His original books for Krishna's sake. Do you even know what Srila Prabhupada said when He wrote down these books for us? He said, "These books, I haven't written them, it's Krishna who's writing them. I am just a vessel." So now,according to your theory, the legal justification will decide that who'll get the original copies of Srila Prabhupada's words? Honestly? A court will decide if Krishna is speaking in these books or not?
There has not been .....to my knowlege .....a 'wholesale editing' court case.......but please do keep me informed as to updates in this area.
V Dasa: Jitarati printed these Bhagavatams under KBI license. Veda Guhya, the printer and Jitarati all know that and evidence supporting this has been given to the court.
KV: Damn your materialistic laws and legal justifications. This is Srila Prabhupada's books, His original books for Krishna's sake. Do you even know what Srila Prabhupada said when He wrote down these books for us? He said, "These books, I haven't written them, it's Krishna who's writing them. I am just a vessel." So now,according to your theory, the legal justification will decide that who'll get the original copies of Srila Prabhupada's words? Honestly? A court will decide if Krishna is speaking in these books or not?
This is how low the current BBT has gone?
You guys who are supporting this murderous act DEFINITELY need to get your priorities sorted 1st and foremost. Your legal justifications and your so called materialistic court rules cannot even match a part of a single dust particle of what Srila Prabhupada has given us. So keep your mouths to yourself about what's right and what's wrong for the original printings.These Books have been written down by a Mahabhagavata Himself, so don't even dare to even look at it with your drastic and destroying intentions.
P.S. and as far as I know, I haven't heard Jayadvaita Swami or any other so called Swami telling us that Sri Krsna is standing in front of them and they were writing the books as He dictates ...
JD: No Smara Hari das prabhu -- THEY ARE NOT Jitarati das's prabhus BOOKS--They are HDG Srila Prabhupads BOOKS as such -- are --DIETIES -- Worshippable- BOOKS. Get it Yet? They must be Protected, the demons in iskcon are OUT of their minds and no good will come of this BAN and Offences to Srila Prabhupada. You play politics and side with the deviators - but this is a SERIOUS Issue and the BBTI are OFF and so is the entire GBC Body.
IF The BBT-I WINs, then ISKCON LOSES and will Suffer the severe Reactions TEN FOLD for such Petty Enviousness, Greed, Stubborness and Back Stabbing to Sincere Publishers of Srila Prabhupads pure 'original book's Sorry you are OFF...who support this Aparad TO SP.
P.S. and as far as I know, I haven't heard Jayadvaita Swami or any other so called Swami telling us that Sri Krsna is standing in front of them and they were writing the books as He dictates ...
JD: No Smara Hari das prabhu -- THEY ARE NOT Jitarati das's prabhus BOOKS--They are HDG Srila Prabhupads BOOKS as such -- are --DIETIES -- Worshippable- BOOKS. Get it Yet? They must be Protected, the demons in iskcon are OUT of their minds and no good will come of this BAN and Offences to Srila Prabhupada. You play politics and side with the deviators - but this is a SERIOUS Issue and the BBTI are OFF and so is the entire GBC Body.
IF The BBT-I WINs, then ISKCON LOSES and will Suffer the severe Reactions TEN FOLD for such Petty Enviousness, Greed, Stubborness and Back Stabbing to Sincere Publishers of Srila Prabhupads pure 'original book's Sorry you are OFF...who support this Aparad TO SP.
P1: Anti fascist
JD: HEIL HITLER -- I mean BBTI Bombay!
PADA: Right, the BBT says Srila Prabhupada is their "writer for hire," and they want the books "re-edited," by a person who says acharyas are often debauchees. Wonderful. ys pd
Smara Hari: Hmmm Yes Hansadutta made much of this point saying it was claimed that Prabhupada was given pencils and paper as a hired writer. The legal point is by whom the copywrite of the books are retained. For example does all of the programmers at Microsoft legally own their output ?
Or do the artists who work for Disney own the characters they create ?
In legal parlance these are designated as 'workers for hire' and the cppywrite is held by their employer ......in this instance BBT. Just as strict measures are taken to prevent pirating of DVDs etc (indeed there is a warning prior to the film content) so too BBT seek to uphold their legal copywrite, as do all owners of intellectual property.
It seems this present legal challenge in Mumbai is regarding the nature of the licence agreement to print. And of course a ruling for India will not be valid anywhere else in the world. If Jitarati had printed on China none of us would be involved in this present discussion.
P1: We are trained in Srila Prabhupada's laws Smara, who care for karmi laws? I really prefer not to be called to testify again to the court of Yamaraja, as I saw in dreams as a child, not a nice experience to repeat again and again again
Smara Hari: Yes Srila Prabhupada's laws. But I, one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples , believe that Srila Prabhupada clearly wanted BBT to be sole publisher of his books. As you know I hold no post or office in Iskcon. I receive no type of gain, or advantage, or remuneration (the legal term is 'consideration') from Iskcon. So my opinions are entirely independent. But I do not believe that dividing into numerous splinter groups .... however well intended ... was never Srila Prabhupada's intentions for his disciples. Rather we should support his Iskcon preaching movement and show our love for him by our co-operation.
MA: But in all your arguments Smara Hari prabhu, you do not address the actual cause of the splintering; ie. the bbt's refusal to print the unchanged books. Nor do I find Srila Prabhupada's being called 'writer for hire' at all satisfactory.
Smara Hari: Since all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are simply students and aspiring Vaishnavas , most probably there are none who have never made mistakes. No one is arguing that there have not been bad policies, or unreasonable decisions. Its so hard for any of us to get it right all the time.....every day. So certainly there are valid reasons for criticism of various management policies.
However some individuals seriously animical to the very existence of the GBC body do not always argue fairly or accurately. For often the object is simply to dishonour the GBC in the spirit of 'the end justifies the means'. So often a distorted picture of events or actions is deliberately depicted. As is said in journalism 'Why let the truth get in the way of a good story. And as to your mention of splintering .......
The emergence of the Ritvic's notion of discilpic continuation took place years before Hansadutta was in legal conflict with BBT over his independent printing of Prabhupada's books. The issues discussed in his case were not the reason for the splinter. The splintering had taken place years before.
Rather efforts were made to identify sound bites from the trial environment such as Prabhupada was given 'paper and pencils' and deliberately employ these sound bites to alienate lapsed devotees away from Iskcon affiliation, to bolster the ranks of the ritvic group long since in existence...... and of course create a market for sales of the new printing of the old editions. Exaggerated claims against Jay Advaita were created to provide a market for non BBT books.
Just like today's allegation of the burning of 5000 sets of Bhagavatam is a fiction deliberately designed to produce greatest emotional results. It has no basis in facts. The case will be decided in court .... as all cases are ... and the court will decide if Jitarati's printing is illegal, and if so what is the fate of the books.
The decision is not BBT's to make.
Our discussion on this thread will have absolutely no bearing on the court case outcome. That this Facebook strategy is being employed seems to me to indicate that this Rit vic group do not like the case been assembled against them by BBT India and somehow pray that a number of devotees haranguing the BBT will influence the outcome, in their favour.
MA: With due respect prabhu, the first thing is that the applicable splintering spoken of here is about the bbt / kbi splintering, not ritvikism, 'named acaryas', guru falldowns, TOVP & flat earth, jiva fall / never fall or anything else. Rather the split was originally caused by the bbt refusal to print the unchanged books, and nothing else. This is the right of every disciple to have these books for distribution, whatever else politics goes on. That's not distortion; it is fact.
Furthermore, exaggerated claims against Jay Adwaita Swami are not the cause of the market for the unchanged books. The cause is the love of those books by Srila Prabhupada's devotees, who have 100% rights to have access to them for purchase and distribution. This is an absolute right, above and transcendental to all legal jargon. It is a most unfortunate development of the kali-yuga age that this right was originally denied by the bbt, leading to the splintering into kbi printings.
Of important note is that kbi is legally licensed by bbt to print these books; as legality is given so much importance here. Furthermore, as so much importance is validly given to Srila Prabhupada's desires for the bbt be the sole printer, similarly the importance of Srila Prabhupada as founder-acarya of ISKCON and the BBT, rather than him given the 'legal' position of hired author, should be prevalent in the legal jargon, no legal excuses accepted, IMO.
As for the burning of 5,000 sets of Book Bhagavatam sets being a fiction; do you have legal documents to prove that? Jatarati's claim is that bbt has applied to the courts for their destruction. I have not seen documents for this claim, but I have seen respected devotees support his honesty. So until documents prove this a lie, the jury is certainly out on this. But whilst we await that proof either way, the act fo these Book Bhagavat's cannot be seen as anything less than demonic, IMHO.
In regards to this fb strategy, if the devotees do not like the case against them, and if it is true bbt has applied for the books to be destroyed, they have every reason to not like that case! And that would make this fb strategy a very good idea. Anything to halt such wanton destruction of transcendental literatures.
Smara Hari: All of the key players in this drama subscribe to a notion of RitVic succession. Perhaps you do not know them personally but many here know exactly who they are, their history, and their rhetoric. No one is authorised to print Srila Prabhupada's books except BBT. Hansadutta got a license by legal trickery...... not Srila Prabhupada's permission. It now appears BBT Mumbai have exclusive permission to print in India. Thus the RitVic permission .....obtained by legal trickery.... is not valid in India. Hence this emotional appeal to the confused and innocent devotees.
That the prosecutor is asking for life imprisonment...... while the end result will be community service..... is simply the drama of the court proceedings........so do not be disturbed by this. Simply go about your devotional business and serve the mission of Srila Prabhupada .... as best you can.
PADA: Jayadvaita says that GBC gurus are often falling and "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children," and he is the person the GBC "legally supports"? Why do we want a person who says acharyas are usually debauchees to re-write the Vedas? As for Prabhupada being their writer for hire, you mean to say, the people who promote that acharyas are often debauchees are -- Prabhupada's boss, and he is their employee?
JD: HEIL HITLER -- I mean BBTI Bombay!
PADA: Right, the BBT says Srila Prabhupada is their "writer for hire," and they want the books "re-edited," by a person who says acharyas are often debauchees. Wonderful. ys pd
Smara Hari: Hmmm Yes Hansadutta made much of this point saying it was claimed that Prabhupada was given pencils and paper as a hired writer. The legal point is by whom the copywrite of the books are retained. For example does all of the programmers at Microsoft legally own their output ?
Or do the artists who work for Disney own the characters they create ?
In legal parlance these are designated as 'workers for hire' and the cppywrite is held by their employer ......in this instance BBT. Just as strict measures are taken to prevent pirating of DVDs etc (indeed there is a warning prior to the film content) so too BBT seek to uphold their legal copywrite, as do all owners of intellectual property.
It seems this present legal challenge in Mumbai is regarding the nature of the licence agreement to print. And of course a ruling for India will not be valid anywhere else in the world. If Jitarati had printed on China none of us would be involved in this present discussion.
P1: We are trained in Srila Prabhupada's laws Smara, who care for karmi laws? I really prefer not to be called to testify again to the court of Yamaraja, as I saw in dreams as a child, not a nice experience to repeat again and again again
Smara Hari: Yes Srila Prabhupada's laws. But I, one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples , believe that Srila Prabhupada clearly wanted BBT to be sole publisher of his books. As you know I hold no post or office in Iskcon. I receive no type of gain, or advantage, or remuneration (the legal term is 'consideration') from Iskcon. So my opinions are entirely independent. But I do not believe that dividing into numerous splinter groups .... however well intended ... was never Srila Prabhupada's intentions for his disciples. Rather we should support his Iskcon preaching movement and show our love for him by our co-operation.
MA: But in all your arguments Smara Hari prabhu, you do not address the actual cause of the splintering; ie. the bbt's refusal to print the unchanged books. Nor do I find Srila Prabhupada's being called 'writer for hire' at all satisfactory.
Smara Hari: Since all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are simply students and aspiring Vaishnavas , most probably there are none who have never made mistakes. No one is arguing that there have not been bad policies, or unreasonable decisions. Its so hard for any of us to get it right all the time.....every day. So certainly there are valid reasons for criticism of various management policies.
However some individuals seriously animical to the very existence of the GBC body do not always argue fairly or accurately. For often the object is simply to dishonour the GBC in the spirit of 'the end justifies the means'. So often a distorted picture of events or actions is deliberately depicted. As is said in journalism 'Why let the truth get in the way of a good story. And as to your mention of splintering .......
The emergence of the Ritvic's notion of discilpic continuation took place years before Hansadutta was in legal conflict with BBT over his independent printing of Prabhupada's books. The issues discussed in his case were not the reason for the splinter. The splintering had taken place years before.
Rather efforts were made to identify sound bites from the trial environment such as Prabhupada was given 'paper and pencils' and deliberately employ these sound bites to alienate lapsed devotees away from Iskcon affiliation, to bolster the ranks of the ritvic group long since in existence...... and of course create a market for sales of the new printing of the old editions. Exaggerated claims against Jay Advaita were created to provide a market for non BBT books.
Just like today's allegation of the burning of 5000 sets of Bhagavatam is a fiction deliberately designed to produce greatest emotional results. It has no basis in facts. The case will be decided in court .... as all cases are ... and the court will decide if Jitarati's printing is illegal, and if so what is the fate of the books.
The decision is not BBT's to make.
Our discussion on this thread will have absolutely no bearing on the court case outcome. That this Facebook strategy is being employed seems to me to indicate that this Rit vic group do not like the case been assembled against them by BBT India and somehow pray that a number of devotees haranguing the BBT will influence the outcome, in their favour.
MA: With due respect prabhu, the first thing is that the applicable splintering spoken of here is about the bbt / kbi splintering, not ritvikism, 'named acaryas', guru falldowns, TOVP & flat earth, jiva fall / never fall or anything else. Rather the split was originally caused by the bbt refusal to print the unchanged books, and nothing else. This is the right of every disciple to have these books for distribution, whatever else politics goes on. That's not distortion; it is fact.
Furthermore, exaggerated claims against Jay Adwaita Swami are not the cause of the market for the unchanged books. The cause is the love of those books by Srila Prabhupada's devotees, who have 100% rights to have access to them for purchase and distribution. This is an absolute right, above and transcendental to all legal jargon. It is a most unfortunate development of the kali-yuga age that this right was originally denied by the bbt, leading to the splintering into kbi printings.
Of important note is that kbi is legally licensed by bbt to print these books; as legality is given so much importance here. Furthermore, as so much importance is validly given to Srila Prabhupada's desires for the bbt be the sole printer, similarly the importance of Srila Prabhupada as founder-acarya of ISKCON and the BBT, rather than him given the 'legal' position of hired author, should be prevalent in the legal jargon, no legal excuses accepted, IMO.
As for the burning of 5,000 sets of Book Bhagavatam sets being a fiction; do you have legal documents to prove that? Jatarati's claim is that bbt has applied to the courts for their destruction. I have not seen documents for this claim, but I have seen respected devotees support his honesty. So until documents prove this a lie, the jury is certainly out on this. But whilst we await that proof either way, the act fo these Book Bhagavat's cannot be seen as anything less than demonic, IMHO.
In regards to this fb strategy, if the devotees do not like the case against them, and if it is true bbt has applied for the books to be destroyed, they have every reason to not like that case! And that would make this fb strategy a very good idea. Anything to halt such wanton destruction of transcendental literatures.
Smara Hari: All of the key players in this drama subscribe to a notion of RitVic succession. Perhaps you do not know them personally but many here know exactly who they are, their history, and their rhetoric. No one is authorised to print Srila Prabhupada's books except BBT. Hansadutta got a license by legal trickery...... not Srila Prabhupada's permission. It now appears BBT Mumbai have exclusive permission to print in India. Thus the RitVic permission .....obtained by legal trickery.... is not valid in India. Hence this emotional appeal to the confused and innocent devotees.
That the prosecutor is asking for life imprisonment...... while the end result will be community service..... is simply the drama of the court proceedings........so do not be disturbed by this. Simply go about your devotional business and serve the mission of Srila Prabhupada .... as best you can.
PADA: Jayadvaita says that GBC gurus are often falling and "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children," and he is the person the GBC "legally supports"? Why do we want a person who says acharyas are usually debauchees to re-write the Vedas? As for Prabhupada being their writer for hire, you mean to say, the people who promote that acharyas are often debauchees are -- Prabhupada's boss, and he is their employee?
They might legally own things by some tricks, but the Gaudiya Matha did the same thing, they took legal control of the assets, but they were seen as deviants by Srila Prabhupada. Worse, they made their guru's books useless by EDITING these books. Nor do we find editing of any famous author's writings after he physically departs, its not done even for Hemmingway and others ... ys pd
Smara Hari: Tho we may entertain ourselves and others by rambling narratives , none of this will have any influence in these present legal proceedings. I was trying to adhere to the legal principles ......my opinion.....or yours .....has no influence on the outcome of the case.
PADA: We have never really cared about the legal opinions that much ourselves. For example, most devotees disagreed with me about the child molesting, and then the GBC was sued for $400,000,000 for child abuse. Most people then ended up agreeing with me anyway. We also said that the books should not be changed, and we won at least some victory in legal court to form the KBI.
Smara Hari: Tho we may entertain ourselves and others by rambling narratives , none of this will have any influence in these present legal proceedings. I was trying to adhere to the legal principles ......my opinion.....or yours .....has no influence on the outcome of the case.
PADA: We have never really cared about the legal opinions that much ourselves. For example, most devotees disagreed with me about the child molesting, and then the GBC was sued for $400,000,000 for child abuse. Most people then ended up agreeing with me anyway. We also said that the books should not be changed, and we won at least some victory in legal court to form the KBI.
Meanwhile, many / most devotees wanted originals, so we won the court of devotee opinion. As for actual court cases, we sometimes win there and sometimes not, but most devotees agree with us, the GBC is bogus to change the books and to block others who want originals. We are more interested in the court of public opinion and devotee opinion, although from time to time we also win in the courts.
As for the legal court itself, the problem there is: That the actual question has never been framed properly, "Does anyone want the Vedas of India re-edited by people who say Vedic acharyas are usually debauchees"? The legal framework has never been done correctly. Anyway, devotees sometimes are curbed by courts, but that does not mean they will agree with the courts at any point. ys pd
DD: Bombay BBT is not going to destroy these books. However, they also print original GITA and bhagavatams. I bought a set 2002.
P1: My final point on this mess is that the BBT can show thier hoods to Jitarati but never bite. I did not agree with the GBC when they took the completion of Srimad Bhagavatum away from Pradumnaya Prabhu. They may be as they often quoted or brainwashing everyone ...as the ultimate governing authority but In NO WAY can their meager vision see clearer that Lord Chaitanyas empowered Nitya Siddhi devotee is Srila Prabhupada, and that stopping the order of the Acarya ruins the GBC and the BBT, even Gopipranadana Prabhu blessed the work of the Ping Pong Swami. Which disciples of Srila Prabhupada feels Srila Prabhupada is pleased with the changing of his book?
Which one of you would like to stand before Srila Prabhupada and ask His Divine Grace how pleased he is over expelling Pradumnaya Prabhu and fiddling with his words? The whole point that Krishna Consciousness is preformed to please Guru and Gouranga has been lost in ISKCON and taken over by (honest?) thieves.
They sell ISKCON properties and open Swiss Bank Accounts to Hide the stolen Booty and wash donations for politicians.
KN: Yeah! well said.
CD: You are sorely mistaken. Dravida and Jaya Advaita Swami have continued to edit Srila Prabhupada's books, including SB. It has also been proven over and over, and over again, that there is NO direct ORDER from Srila Prabhupada for JAS to edit his books.
Today when we refer to Srila Prabhupada's edited books, we are referring to all the unnecessary edits. For instance, if you take the original SB and read from it, and have someone else read from the most recent edited version, you will be totally shocked at the changes.
I have the original 3 volumes from the trunk Srila Prabhupada brought over from India. I also have the original volumes that Srila Prabhupada read from in the classes he gave daily. I bought a set of SB's for my son who lives in NC several years ago, not knowing that they had been changed. He reads to me over the phone from those SB's and I have the original BBT books that Srila Prabhupada sanctioned. So, when my son reads from the later edited versions, and I follow along with the editions sanctioned by Srila Prabhupada (before JAS & Dravida prabhus edited); the changes are so numerous that any devout follower of Srila Prabhupada would be in total disbelief over all the unnecessary changes.
Seriously, you cannot understand unless you can get a hold of a first printed BBT edition (although apparently you can't anymore) and these edited versions. This is why most devotees are so in the dark over the big hoopla over the changes. You cannot clearly see and understand until you do exactly what my son and I have done. And this was all circumstantial. When we first began reading some time back, I was totally unaware that there were any changes in the books. This clearly is a serious matter, and should not be taken lightly. In this thread, I am not talking about the BG, which is another matter unto itself.
DD: “On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant for bringing about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literature, even though irregularly composed, is heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.” SB 1.5.11
KN: They are dreaming! They will be breaking contract with KBI. And thus they will be ruled against . such 3rd class mentality.
Robert Grant: Only Demons destroy Srila Prabhupada's books - and I do not believe anyone in BBT would ever do that, which appears to makes this all absurd.
P1: JItarati's reply after I was sent a doc by Goura Prabhu. Goura sent me some thing from India's BBT saying they will not destroy the books, but who knows.
DD: Bombay BBT is not going to destroy these books. However, they also print original GITA and bhagavatams. I bought a set 2002.
P1: My final point on this mess is that the BBT can show thier hoods to Jitarati but never bite. I did not agree with the GBC when they took the completion of Srimad Bhagavatum away from Pradumnaya Prabhu. They may be as they often quoted or brainwashing everyone ...as the ultimate governing authority but In NO WAY can their meager vision see clearer that Lord Chaitanyas empowered Nitya Siddhi devotee is Srila Prabhupada, and that stopping the order of the Acarya ruins the GBC and the BBT, even Gopipranadana Prabhu blessed the work of the Ping Pong Swami. Which disciples of Srila Prabhupada feels Srila Prabhupada is pleased with the changing of his book?
Which one of you would like to stand before Srila Prabhupada and ask His Divine Grace how pleased he is over expelling Pradumnaya Prabhu and fiddling with his words? The whole point that Krishna Consciousness is preformed to please Guru and Gouranga has been lost in ISKCON and taken over by (honest?) thieves.
They sell ISKCON properties and open Swiss Bank Accounts to Hide the stolen Booty and wash donations for politicians.
KN: Yeah! well said.
CD: You are sorely mistaken. Dravida and Jaya Advaita Swami have continued to edit Srila Prabhupada's books, including SB. It has also been proven over and over, and over again, that there is NO direct ORDER from Srila Prabhupada for JAS to edit his books.
Today when we refer to Srila Prabhupada's edited books, we are referring to all the unnecessary edits. For instance, if you take the original SB and read from it, and have someone else read from the most recent edited version, you will be totally shocked at the changes.
I have the original 3 volumes from the trunk Srila Prabhupada brought over from India. I also have the original volumes that Srila Prabhupada read from in the classes he gave daily. I bought a set of SB's for my son who lives in NC several years ago, not knowing that they had been changed. He reads to me over the phone from those SB's and I have the original BBT books that Srila Prabhupada sanctioned. So, when my son reads from the later edited versions, and I follow along with the editions sanctioned by Srila Prabhupada (before JAS & Dravida prabhus edited); the changes are so numerous that any devout follower of Srila Prabhupada would be in total disbelief over all the unnecessary changes.
Seriously, you cannot understand unless you can get a hold of a first printed BBT edition (although apparently you can't anymore) and these edited versions. This is why most devotees are so in the dark over the big hoopla over the changes. You cannot clearly see and understand until you do exactly what my son and I have done. And this was all circumstantial. When we first began reading some time back, I was totally unaware that there were any changes in the books. This clearly is a serious matter, and should not be taken lightly. In this thread, I am not talking about the BG, which is another matter unto itself.
DD: “On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant for bringing about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literature, even though irregularly composed, is heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.” SB 1.5.11
KN: They are dreaming! They will be breaking contract with KBI. And thus they will be ruled against . such 3rd class mentality.
Robert Grant: Only Demons destroy Srila Prabhupada's books - and I do not believe anyone in BBT would ever do that, which appears to makes this all absurd.
P1: JItarati's reply after I was sent a doc by Goura Prabhu. Goura sent me some thing from India's BBT saying they will not destroy the books, but who knows.
DD: Does this extreme editing count?
SD: As Smara Hari says, it's simply an emotional appeal.
SD: As Smara Hari says, it's simply an emotional appeal.
DD: The sets in question omit 10-11-12 canto done by Hrdayananda and Krishna West. The bombay BBT also prints original gita and SB. i bought a set 2002 from Bombay BBT.
Smra Hari: DD, I have never read the verse by verse of cantos 10-11-12 that completed Srila Prabhuoada's incomplete Srimad Bhagvat Purāṇa. Does it have Krishna West style illustrations with contemporary fashion clothes as sported by Chandra Sekhar prabhu?
PADA: First of all, the books have already been destroyed de facto. They are being edited way beyond simple grammar. For example, Srila Prabhupada says "We all have an eternal relationship with Krishna," and Jayadvaita changed that to "one has an eternal relationship with Krishna." If a kindergarten child mistook "we" for "one" he would flunk kindergarten.
Jayadvaita also says gurus are often debauchees, and this is the person we want to edit the books of the acharyas? There are really countless examples of many types wrong editing things, where editing went way beyond fixing a few grammar points and worse, its sometimes being changed to BAD GRAMMAR.
A person who says gurus are often debauchees is also not qualified to edit any Vedic writings, period. As for Krishna West, they said that Kirtanananda and Bhavananda are great acharyas in their SB edition. Great judgement there?
Meanwhile, devotees who did not want changed books were kicked out of one temple, and so they started their own program, and they are now getting more people to go their program than the temple gets. Now some temple folks are saying they are competing demons and so forth. Anyone who wants to read Srila Prabhupada's books, and not Jayadvaita's, is a demon?
Why is the mentality going on still after all the beatings and murders this type demonizing people thing caused already? Some other devotees, who are book distributors, were kicked out of Gainesville because they did not want to use changed books. It seems to me that this is the latest way to start kicking out a whole new wave of devotees. Why is the GBC always figuring out yet another reason to kick out more devotees, after Lokanatha swami said in 1988, the temples are ghost towns?
We want to now get rid of the teeny few left? Why? Why not stop all these changes and allow people to accept the original books, worship the original acharya, and not have people lecturing that gurus are often falling debauchees, which was never preached by any acharyas? All of this is changing the whole process, and changing the books is part of it. In sum, everything is being changed, and the books are merely one more example of these changes. Did we forget to mention that no famous author has his books re-edited after he departs physically? ys pd
AA: I agree, I want one set of ORIGINAL Srimad Bhagavatam.
PADA: Right, well what happened here is that some devotees were booted out of the ISKCON temples because they did not want to worship fallen people as their acharya, and they wanted original books. So they started a small temple in and when they held their last Janmastami, they had about 7,000 guests, who had to be streamed in single file, there was a line three blocks long.
AA: I agree, I want one set of ORIGINAL Srimad Bhagavatam.
PADA: Right, well what happened here is that some devotees were booted out of the ISKCON temples because they did not want to worship fallen people as their acharya, and they wanted original books. So they started a small temple in and when they held their last Janmastami, they had about 7,000 guests, who had to be streamed in single file, there was a line three blocks long.
Our associates in Vancourver were also kicked out after they wanted to know why they had to offer bhoga to a GBC manager, and not to the acharya, and they wanted original books. They also have a nice program. And of course the GBC has spent $20,000,000 suing the Bangalore devotees, so they can make a ghost town out of their program, but they have not had much luck, the courts have not favored the GBC side very well and the GBC agents have been charged with contempt, fraud, theft, document manipulation etc.
Meanwhile the whole GBC is now saying that Krishna's guru successors are crooks, who steal temple buildings, as they are saying about their Brooklyn guru. So now they are telling their congregations that Krishna's guru successors are sometimes crooked thieves who have to be taken to court for fraud, in addition to their acharyas already having problems with illicit sex and so on. Jayadvaita is heading this up, he is actively saying that his guru line contains crooks who should not steal buildings.
Why are they saying gurus are crooks, after they first of all said gurus are illicit sex deviants? So again, anyone who says gurus are sexual predators, crooks, thieves, deviants, and orchestrators of crimes, should not be re-writing the Vedas. And why doesn't BBT India know that people who say acharyas are often debauchees, thieves, sexual predators and crooks -- should not be in charge of editing their sacred books? ys pd
DD: What does Krishna say? How does the message get lost? By changing it!
PADA: Exactly, that is what Krishna says, the message is lost and I have to reappear yuge yuge, how is it lost? Its changed ...
RS: Devotee's fighting devotee's, founded by JAS.
KV: Damn your materialistic laws and legal justifications. This is Srila Prabhupada's books we're talking about for Krishna's sake? Do you even know what Srila Prabhupada said when He wrote down these books for us ... He said "These books, it's not me who's writing them, it's Sri Krsna whose guiding me to write these books."
DD: What does Krishna say? How does the message get lost? By changing it!
PADA: Exactly, that is what Krishna says, the message is lost and I have to reappear yuge yuge, how is it lost? Its changed ...
RS: Devotee's fighting devotee's, founded by JAS.
KV: Damn your materialistic laws and legal justifications. This is Srila Prabhupada's books we're talking about for Krishna's sake? Do you even know what Srila Prabhupada said when He wrote down these books for us ... He said "These books, it's not me who's writing them, it's Sri Krsna whose guiding me to write these books."
And now the current BBT thinks itself to be even greater than Srila Prabhupada that they want to go so low that they'll even dare to destroy Srila Prabhupada's original books, His writings? Please don't forget that these books are matchless gifts, so matchless that one cannot even reach to the level of a part of a dust particle of these original books.These so materialistic courts and there so called materialistic rules will decide that what will happen to Srila Prabhupada's original books?
You've got to be joking. I guess some people need to get there priorities clear 1st of all and than say something about it. Srila Prabhupada is a Maha Mahabhagavata. Clear cut order He gave, "please don't change my books"..And here we are fighting over it.
DD: Bombay bbt will not destroy books. They'll print original gita and SB also. Its a matter of SP wanting the BBT TO PRINT HIS BOOKS. As bbt gives 50% for building temples and 50% for books. If someone prints books and undercuts bbt it will be finished. India has built 65 temples.
DD: I would not personally add a period to SP books. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
KV: Srila Prabhupada said, "enough temples have been made,now go and make devotees." Seems like we're just concentrating on making temples rather than devotees. And where is the question of undercut? Why can't The BBT distribute only Srila Prabhupada's books that He wrote rather than a revised version which seems more Biblical in language and concept? Why is it that Srila Prabhupada said this changing issue as a "Western disease"? If it is such a case.. than I do guess there is indeed something wrong going on here..
DD: Both are going on in many parts of the world.
KV: Right..And what are those devotees getting? Not the original copies of Srila Prabhupada but revised version in majority ... I am not talking about stopping of the temple programs anywhere. But books, Srila Prabhupada's original books, His Original mercy.. That's what is more important. "Books are the basis" Srila Prabhupada!
DD: As i said i would not change even 1 period.
KV: I know that prabhu..you won't. But others DID! You see?That's where the problem arises ... Whatever the indirect facts prabhu! Why not just stick to the originality. That's what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Just stick to the plan, stick to my books and you'll get Krishna! That's my guarantee. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. This is Srila Prabhupada we are talking about, his original writings, original facts, everything head to toe, original. Direct blessings of Srila Prabhupada. 100% guarantee. My main emphasis is on just maintaining and distribution of just the original books.. Millions and millions of copies and their distribution all over the world. Direct blessings to everyone and that too in its original form..
DD: Bombay bbt will not destroy books. They'll print original gita and SB also. Its a matter of SP wanting the BBT TO PRINT HIS BOOKS. As bbt gives 50% for building temples and 50% for books. If someone prints books and undercuts bbt it will be finished. India has built 65 temples.
DD: I would not personally add a period to SP books. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
KV: Srila Prabhupada said, "enough temples have been made,now go and make devotees." Seems like we're just concentrating on making temples rather than devotees. And where is the question of undercut? Why can't The BBT distribute only Srila Prabhupada's books that He wrote rather than a revised version which seems more Biblical in language and concept? Why is it that Srila Prabhupada said this changing issue as a "Western disease"? If it is such a case.. than I do guess there is indeed something wrong going on here..
DD: Both are going on in many parts of the world.
KV: Right..And what are those devotees getting? Not the original copies of Srila Prabhupada but revised version in majority ... I am not talking about stopping of the temple programs anywhere. But books, Srila Prabhupada's original books, His Original mercy.. That's what is more important. "Books are the basis" Srila Prabhupada!
DD: As i said i would not change even 1 period.
KV: I know that prabhu..you won't. But others DID! You see?That's where the problem arises ... Whatever the indirect facts prabhu! Why not just stick to the originality. That's what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Just stick to the plan, stick to my books and you'll get Krishna! That's my guarantee. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. This is Srila Prabhupada we are talking about, his original writings, original facts, everything head to toe, original. Direct blessings of Srila Prabhupada. 100% guarantee. My main emphasis is on just maintaining and distribution of just the original books.. Millions and millions of copies and their distribution all over the world. Direct blessings to everyone and that too in its original form..
If somebody else wants to write a book, they may write other books but if there acharya has written a book, then preserve it and distribute it. Don't the un-original version and distribute. One may write other lilas other books according to ones realization and understanding but not those tikas or versions which were given by the Acharya Himself and that too when the acharya has refused to change His original books. But at least they are very minutely available now a days and that's a fact prabhu.
JD: HARE KRSNA -- Make this issue VIRAL ___ PLEASE --Thank You---
PADA: According to Jayadvaita swami's writings, he says GBC gurus and acharyas are often falling into illicit sex with men, women and children, and the BBT has built 65 temples where they worship his debauchee's acharya program? And worse, they are openly preaching to children that God's successors are often debauchees.
JD: HARE KRSNA -- Make this issue VIRAL ___ PLEASE --Thank You---
PADA: According to Jayadvaita swami's writings, he says GBC gurus and acharyas are often falling into illicit sex with men, women and children, and the BBT has built 65 temples where they worship his debauchee's acharya program? And worse, they are openly preaching to children that God's successors are often debauchees.
So this is amazing, we need to fund a program that worships illicit sex with men, women and children as their gurus, parampara members, and acharyas, using Srila Prabhupada's funds? When did Srila Prabhupada say the BBT needs to fund the worship of illicit sex as ISKCON's diksha gurus and parampara members? And now Jayadvaita is openly preaching that acharyas are even criminals who steal buildings from Krishna, like his acharya is doing in Brooklyn.
We need 65 temples -- where it is being preached that God's gurus / successors / acharyas are criminals who have to be taken to court for fraud? And where is the money coming from to spend $20,000,000 to sue the Prabhupadanugas in India? Why are they spending all this money on lawyers and not books? And why is it, the person who says acharyas are often debauchees, is hand selected to re-write Prabhupada's books by the BBT? 65 temples that tell children God's successors are often debauchees, and funds changing the books, and this is what Srila Prabhupada wanted to fund with his books money? ys pd
GH: I am going to a festival in Alachua ...
GH: I am going to a festival in Alachua ...
PADA: Unfortunately, the Alachua / Gainesville temple folks kicked out some of our devotees who wanted to distribute original books there. So a lot of the community there seems to have fallen sway to the Jayadvaita-ized view of Krishna consciousness, i.e. that acharyas are defective, if not debauchees, if not criminals, and therefore -- we need to re-write all their books.
This is the same relativized acharya process that destroyed the Gaudiya Matha. And Jayadvaita also chastised some devotees recently for chanting Srila Prabhupada's pranam name at the samsara prayers, and he asked in his lecture, why in the hell are we chanting Prabhupada's name? Indeed! And this is the person Alachua temple gives the speaking floor to, the book changer personified, and the guy who wonders why in hell people worship the pure devotee.
Jayadvaita swami: "So, when someone who’s not Prabhupadas direct disciple, begins by offering pranam mantra to Prabhupada, my hearing takes a beating. I think: ’What’s wrong with this person?!”
"But at least: don’t start with Prabhupada pranams mantra. You’re totally contrary to the tradition, if you do that. The next thing that disturbs me, sometimes we hear, right in the middle of Samasara dava ‘jaya Prabhupada, Jaya’…
"What the hell is that?! Samsara dava is not the Prabhupada song! It’s the guru song… which doesn’t mean the founder acharya of ISKCON. Samsara dava is not the Prabhupada song.
"And therefore it even disturbs me when, you know, they finish the… dhyāyam stuvaḿs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaḿvande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam.. ‘jaya Prabhupada jaya’… as again if it was the Prabhupada song.
"If you want to think of Prabhupada during that song, that’s fine, but it’s not… What if somebody else is thinking of his guru? God forbid! Then you’ve spoiled his meditation. Because you’re thinking it’s the Prabhupada song.
You don’t need to chant ‘Jaya Prabhupada’ at any point.
PADA: And this is the person Alachua community allows to speak there? Srila Prabhupada's pranam, what the hell is that? Indeed!
P1: JAS got this idea, that the 11 are acharyas, from Naranaya Maharaja 2 days after Srila Prabhupada physically departed in an istagoshi at Krishna Balarama Temple of which I was witness. NM said the 11 are acharyas and they should be worshiped as assisting the gopis etc. Since that confirmation by these GM those iniating in ISKCON act as if they are Uttam Adikari and demand worship as such.
PADA: The samsara prayers only apply to the pure devotee, and no one else. To imply that conditioned souls are directly "assisting the gopis" and so on, is sahajiya vada. The point is, JAS and Narayana Maharaja think conditioned souls should have equal glorification as acharyas, i.e. acharyas are conditioned souls, i.e. we need to re-write all their books ... ys pd
P1: JAS got this idea, that the 11 are acharyas, from Naranaya Maharaja 2 days after Srila Prabhupada physically departed in an istagoshi at Krishna Balarama Temple of which I was witness. NM said the 11 are acharyas and they should be worshiped as assisting the gopis etc. Since that confirmation by these GM those iniating in ISKCON act as if they are Uttam Adikari and demand worship as such.
PADA: The samsara prayers only apply to the pure devotee, and no one else. To imply that conditioned souls are directly "assisting the gopis" and so on, is sahajiya vada. The point is, JAS and Narayana Maharaja think conditioned souls should have equal glorification as acharyas, i.e. acharyas are conditioned souls, i.e. we need to re-write all their books ... ys pd
https://theharekrishnamovement.org/.../disciple-never.../
Disciple Never Becomes Equal to Guru
The following conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Mr. Malhotra recorded in Poona, December 22,…
THEHAREKRISHNAMOVEMENT.ORG
DD: Directly assisting the gopis? Therefore you have to take shelter of the spiritual master who has seen Him.
Srila Prabhupada..."As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down. Yasya prasādād ... Despite a very rigid life in devotional service, SB 5.12.14
Disciple Never Becomes Equal to Guru
The following conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Mr. Malhotra recorded in Poona, December 22,…
THEHAREKRISHNAMOVEMENT.ORG
DD: Directly assisting the gopis? Therefore you have to take shelter of the spiritual master who has seen Him.
Srila Prabhupada..."As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down. Yasya prasādād ... Despite a very rigid life in devotional service, SB 5.12.14
PADA: WORD FOR WORD // Saksat--directly; hari-tvena--with the quality of Hari; samasta-- all; sastraih--by scriptures; uktah--acknowledged, tatha--thus; bhavyate--is considered; eva--also; sadbhih--by great saintly persons; kintu--however; prabhoh--to the Lord; yah--who; priyah-- dear; eva--certainly; tasya--of him (the guru); vande--I offer obeisances; guroh--of my spiritual master; sri-carana-aravindam--unto the lotus feet.
The guru has the same qualities as Hari. Whereas Jayadvaita says his gurus are often falling into illicit sex with men, women and children. Why is he allowed to be teaching all over the planet that gurus are defective souls, this is one of the ten offenses to the holy name, to consider guru is ordinary. And since guru is an ordinary man, we can change his books .... ys pd]
P1: The BBT had a person chosen by Srila Prabhupada to finish His Divine Graces Srimad Bhagavatam, aka Pradyumna. But because he pointed out very early on that they were officiating acarya s proxy for His Divine Grace; And Srila Prabhupadas position is Like Srila Ramanuja Acaya to always be kept at the main position of worship, that is why we are in the mess we are today
IF YOU OFFER BHOGA TO SRILA PRABHUPADA'S DISCIPLES THAT BOGA REMAINS BOGA we are not rati keli nikunja juno, Radhey Keli siddhas! If Srila Prabhupadas disciples follow His Divine Grace like his agents cent per cent channeling his order then yes they can do. But very few will ever reach there.
What things were done by young men in thier 20s and 30s can be forgiven and corrected but as we are now in last stages of our lives must be corrected or FACTUALLY horrible suffering will befall tho that struggle to follow an unauthorized system.
PADA: Right, to say that Pradyumna should be removed, after he was made the "best person available" to do the future translation, is another sign they thought Srila Prabhupada is an ordinary man, so his orders can be changed. Prabhupada also said, do not change my books, so all of these changes are due to their thinking that guru is ordinary ... so we can change his books, change his orders, etc.
RS: HARI HARI BOL,
RR: Who would want to live in a lskcon temple? There is no pure guru there since 1977, and no love and affection. You can chant hare krishna anywhere and any time who needs corrupt institutions anyway? Even srila prabhupada said one day all these temples will be gone but the maha mantra is always there. bhaktivinode thakura said always preach nama hata not big big temples!
P1: No, it's not like that as long as one has taken Srila Prabhupada's instructions as their life and soul naturally they are in ISKCON where ever they serve His Divine Grace within his temples or not, where ever His order to chant 16 malas of japa is daily preformed.
P1: The BBT had a person chosen by Srila Prabhupada to finish His Divine Graces Srimad Bhagavatam, aka Pradyumna. But because he pointed out very early on that they were officiating acarya s proxy for His Divine Grace; And Srila Prabhupadas position is Like Srila Ramanuja Acaya to always be kept at the main position of worship, that is why we are in the mess we are today
IF YOU OFFER BHOGA TO SRILA PRABHUPADA'S DISCIPLES THAT BOGA REMAINS BOGA we are not rati keli nikunja juno, Radhey Keli siddhas! If Srila Prabhupadas disciples follow His Divine Grace like his agents cent per cent channeling his order then yes they can do. But very few will ever reach there.
What things were done by young men in thier 20s and 30s can be forgiven and corrected but as we are now in last stages of our lives must be corrected or FACTUALLY horrible suffering will befall tho that struggle to follow an unauthorized system.
PADA: Right, to say that Pradyumna should be removed, after he was made the "best person available" to do the future translation, is another sign they thought Srila Prabhupada is an ordinary man, so his orders can be changed. Prabhupada also said, do not change my books, so all of these changes are due to their thinking that guru is ordinary ... so we can change his books, change his orders, etc.
RS: HARI HARI BOL,
RR: Who would want to live in a lskcon temple? There is no pure guru there since 1977, and no love and affection. You can chant hare krishna anywhere and any time who needs corrupt institutions anyway? Even srila prabhupada said one day all these temples will be gone but the maha mantra is always there. bhaktivinode thakura said always preach nama hata not big big temples!
P1: No, it's not like that as long as one has taken Srila Prabhupada's instructions as their life and soul naturally they are in ISKCON where ever they serve His Divine Grace within his temples or not, where ever His order to chant 16 malas of japa is daily preformed.
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