Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Prabhupāda: Many, there are many reasons.
Devotee (4): I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature… Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.
Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?
Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Kṛṣṇa’s personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Kṛṣṇa, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa....
Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not become Kṛṣṇa?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn’t Kṛṣṇa protect us from that desire?
Prabhupāda: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupāda: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Kṛṣṇa does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
Vipina: But isn’t it by force anyway? If we don’t love Kṛṣṇa, we suffer.
Prabhupāda: That is your business. You’ll suffer. But that Kṛṣṇa does not force you. He says the real, “You love me, you’ll be happy. If you don’t love, you suffer.” But that is your business.
Vipina: So what is the choice?
Prabhupāda: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don’t make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says that “You surrender to Me,” you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, “My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you’ll be happy.” If he does not do it, he’ll suffer. There is no other alternative.
Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It’s made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I’ve been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government’s not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Kṛṣṇa, for them there is material world, “All right, you remain here.”
Vipina: We also say that Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Kṛṣṇa, why doesn’t He let us really enjoy independent of Him?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is māyā it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that’s all. You are not enjoyer.
Vipina: Then He’s not fulfilling the desire.
Prabhupāda: No, you wanted to enjoy—enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you’ll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.
Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the fact.
Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.
Prabhupāda: Therefore He advises, “Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you’ll be happy.” But we don’t accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. What is that? Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ?