Tuesday, December 16, 2014

Reasons Hare Krishna Collapsed (update)


Hrdayananda and "Krishna West"

Is this Gaudiya Vaishnavism, or is it deviation? I have my own very strong opinions about this issue (if you can see my comment to the initial share), but I'd love to hear from the forum. Part II: Hridayananda das Goswami response to GBC disapproval of Krishna West - ISKCON.Us.

SD: That is why, there should be one acharya per society, so that his words will be final and order for everyone within.

[PADA: Right, how come we have so many different gurus in the GBC system? And they cannot even agree with one another? This makes no sense at all. Then, because they disagree, they have to censure gurus, remove gurus, what is that?]

JD: http://www.acharyadeva.com/.../144-krishna-west-receives... - so other preachers of KC are getting in the way of Krsna's message? I'm sorry, but this all seems so wrong. Krishna West Receives Wide Acclaim - Acharyadeva.com - Official Website of H. H. Hridayananda... acharyadeva.com Read the Krishna West mission statement here! Two months ago since the launch of Krishna West, Hridayananda das Goswami has been speaking with ISKCON...

JD: And -- just because Maharaj is standing next to my GM DOES NOT mean that my GM supports his new ideas - it's all construed to give that impression.

[PADA: Hah hah, my guru maharaja is not associated with your guru maharaja, even though they are in the same photo. What kind of joke is this? My guru is better than yours? My guru is not associated with yours?]

DC: I remind everyone of the standards of discourse for this forum. Please be respectful and comment on such current events in western Gaudiya practice in light of pure devotional service and it presentation according to time, place and circumstance.

GVRA policy for postings; "In order to attain the greatest benefit and display the highest example, all gathered here must work individually and collectively to maintain focused and dignified discourse on the philosophical principles and practices of pure devotional service. Such mature discussion and debate must be free of sectarian interests and distracting organizational details. Only when a specific institution’s practices or philosophy stands in opposition to the siddhanta of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya will such discussion be entertained here. All discourse here must be motivated by the desire to arrive at truthful siddhanta, vada, substantiated by guru, sadhu and sastra. Jalpa, self interested, and vitanda, win at all costs, postings will not only be discouraged but eliminated by diligent moderation."

[PADA: The post-1936 Gaudiya Matha had deviant acharyas due to the "appointed guru" program of Sridhara Maharaja, and later the GBC had similar deviant acharyas in a program that was also promoted by Sridhara Maharaja after 1977. That is called deviation. Yet the Gaudiya Vaishnava program developed by Tripurari swami is that he -- ran off to -- Sridhara Maharaja?]

KP: Is it Gaudiya Vaishnavism? Of course - Mahaprabhu is worshiped and spreading His sankirtan is the aim. HS is a guru in a GV sampradaya. You may not like their approach but they certainly deserve a chance to prove themselves. Is there anything sinful or immoral that they are engaged in? Not that I know of. There are many new branches on Lord Caitanya tree and we need to respect their desire to spread the sankirtan movement in their own way.

Well, there are hundreds if not thousands of people that consider him their guru, and that is what counts on the ground. Besides, Srila Prabhupada directly authorized him to accept disciples. Who are we to get between a guru and his disciple?

[PADA: Hrdayananda is a guru because, why? This is the problem with these Gaudiya Matha folks. They think gurus are appointed, they are not. They think we should allow deviations because we "cannot interfere with the guru and disciple relationship." What if they are not gurus? What if crimes are going on? We cannot disturb the guru process? Then what? These people do not even think the Hrdayananda program has done anything wrong, the program has yet to prove itself? Umm, the ISKCON society has been devastated from HDG's bogus guru policies, what more needs to be proven?]

JD: Good point, KP prabhu - I don't mean to be disrespectful, and I'm sorry if anything I say comes off in that way - I just had many very disturbing conversations with Maharaja about his ideas, and I truly feel that by using his great intelligence and knowledge of Sanskrit and sastra, he is confusing things and moving in a direction that to me seems very far away from Gaudiya Vaishnavism and from SP's teachings, and I don't feel comfortable with simply watching the whole spectacle play out in silence.

[PADA: Right, Hrdayananda has made "many controversial statements," including that Srila Prabhupada has "exceeded his authority." Hrdayananda is taking a post as Srila Prabhupada's superior. So we should not "sit and watch the whole spectacle in silence." Good. At least this person has realized the statements being made by Hrdayananda are "very disturbing conversations." 

At least someone in this conversation is realizing HDG has gone too far away from the process. Of course when HDG went to bat to defend keeping Bhavananda in 1986, wasn't that a bridge to far already? Why don't people realize reinstating a known deviant as an acharya is wrong, and the means HDG has already proven himself to be deviated way back in 1986?]

EW: I've been following this topic for awhile as I find it very interesting. It's a different style of preaching, but I don't see it as anti-Gaudiya Vaisnavism. It's a good reminder to focus on the internals and not the externals. While I am not conscious of having made anyone a devotee, I have definitely increased the respectability of GV by working in a professional field and being respectable in material life.

I am known as logical and serious and when my coworkers find out I am also a GV, they have increased their respect for it. So there is definitely something to what Hridayananda Maharaja is saying. However, there are certain GV concepts that are so foreign to the Protestant western countries, like harinama sankirtana, that whether it is done in western or eastern clothes, it'll still be foreign. (Might be more favorable to the Catholics though as processions are more common.)

KP: I think we need to keep things in perspective. While something may not be inspiring for our spiritual life, it does not mean that it has no value to other people. We can practice spirituality in our own way without throwing banana peels on the path walked by others.

[PADA: This is the problem, Hrdayananda's program kicked out almost all of the Srila Prabhupada devotees, he put banana peels under their feet and caused them to fall.]

VP: Exactly K!

BA: Y jī, At least for myself, HDG is one of the few reasons I remain close to the GV community. There are a few other reasons, but honestly, I'm deeply indebted to his wisdom and care. Even Śrīla Prabhupada hasn't had such a transformative effect on my spirit of service as HDG's. That's just being objective about the matter. Of course, ŚP himself said all we needed to do was "add Krishna". But of course, many devotees take that to mean, "add India". I for one am glad that some do not.

[PADA: Hrdayananda is the reason some people stay close to the Gaudiya Vaishava community? What kind of community do they have? Hrdayananda has supported all sorts of deviants in the post of acharya, he insisted in recoronating a known deviant as acharya in 1986, and now it turns out he is another one of those deviants because he says Srila Prabhupada has been proven wrong by the karmis.] 

DC: One thing we can observe from this article is that ISKCON has become so large that within the organization there is sectarianism. Thakura Bhaktivinoda in Krishna Samhita 8.22 (verse and purport):
sampradaya-virodho 'yam davanalo vicintyate. The eleventh obstacle for the Vaishnavas is sectarianism, which takes the shape of the forest fire.

Due to sectarianism a person cannot accept anyone outside of his own group as a Vaishnava, and as a result he faces many obstacles in finding a guru and associating with sincere devotees. Therefore extinguishing the forest fire is most important by giving up this mentality.

[PADA: How can we say that the persons who are preaching that the acharyas have been defeated by the mundane karmis -- are "a Vaishnava group." Again, this is the problem with these Gaudiya Matha folks, they cannot discriminate, they think the people who make bogus acharyas, and who insult the acharyas, are the acharyas and leaders of a bona fide Vaishnava sangha.]

BA: The article shows that ISKCON has become large enough that it no longer constitutes a "tight knit" community, in which everyone, more or less, knows each other. At the scale we have reached, there is bound to be differences of the understanding between devotees who are connected to Caitanya's Bhakti-vrksa based on the very simply tradition of Guru-disciple relationships.

[PADA: Here we go again, HDG says Srila Prabhupada is not authorized, he has exceeded his authority, and yet these people still think HDG is a guru. What does it take before they realize he is not a guru?]

BA: I find this issue to be a serious obstacle to the institutional integrity that the GV tradition needs if it is to become relevant to the world outside of India. Y ji, I do think that we have to develop our acumen as scholars of Gaudiya theology and ethics, if we are to develop standards of judgment for matters of "new preaching styles." While having a single acarya might provide some consistency in opinion among Vaisnavas, it is simply the reality that the GV community has grown beyond the domain of a single opinion.

[PADA: Kirtananda also tried to make "new preaching styles." This has been the problem all along. They stop the standard system approved and provided by the acharyas, and they make a new system. Harikesh made a new system, Jayatirtha made a news sytem, Hansadutta made a news system, that is not the process. The process is that we follow the system established by the acharya. And now we find,  acharyas do not even have to agree on basic points of siddhanta, there can now be "many opinions." Srila Prabhupada said guru is one, there are not separate camps and opinions.] 

BA: I would be surprised to find that GV Krsna bhaktas agree on very much at all, save the "basics," and perhaps that in itself is all they really need to be able to agree on. Isn't there any freedom in being a devotee? I'm really not certain I understand why every action of the devotee has to proceed from an explicit precedent; in other words, where does it say in all of the sastras, "Let the practitioner not be the the first to try something out."?

[PADA: Hrdayananda did try out making deviants into acharyas, and it failed. We are not supposed to be trying things out, we are supposed to follow the acharyas. Trying things out, this is called speculation.]

Is it really unethical to preach in a way that seeks to blend itself in with common culture so as not to induce culture shock? I'm really not impressed with the standards of conservativism in the GV community. It seems to me that it has become so much focused on externalities. How, of all things, does a dress-code determine the ability of a devotee to achieve freedom from birth and death, or in any way tell us about the purity of their love for Kṛṣṇa? Etc.

I don't mean to offend anyone here. I'm just a little bit shocked at how far from homebase we seem to have gotten. Whatever happened to the universal simplicity of practicing sadhana-/raganuga-bhakti? When did it become a cultural contest, to "look and feel" authentically Hindu? And really, what does any of that have to do with Krishna consciousness? Can anyone explain this to me?

KEF: I think this subject is for iskcon members only, other societies do not have this problem because we have a Sevaite/Acharya, let's iskcon people solve their issues, on top of that, iskcon gbc do not care what we think about the subject, they already pass a resolution regarding "opinions and comments" form "non-iskcon members".

In the other hand, it is interesting to see how many years later, HS is getting a blowback on a policy that he himself favors: zonal guru. So now he is restricted to visit Israel and France because the gbc (the body he was member and created the zonal guru system) is now telling him: that is not your zone so you should not go.

[PADA: Correct. Hrdayananda was one of the master minds behind the "Zonal guru" idea, and now he is himself being banished from other's "zones." How ironic.] 

BA: By HS, I take it you mean "Hridayananda [Go]Swami"?

KEF: Yes Benjamin.

BA: Thank you for clarifying. But in response to your above statement, I'm pretty sure that HDG does not favor the Zonal Acarya system anymore. I'm also pretty sure that he grew out of that about 30 years ago or so, when he was still relatively young. Unless you meant "favored", because I'm not really sure whether he "favored" that system in opposition to any other viable alternative which was being presented. I do know that he was one of the early adopters of the "post-zonal" system, and acknowledged the many problems with the system at the time. At least, according to his account of the history, which he related to me personally.

[PADA: Fine except, every single year at Mayapura, the GBC designates geographical areas for their gurus.]

EW: I think its applicable outside of ISKCON as if it is found to be effective and not against GV principles then it might be something we want to experiment with as well.

DC: BA, KEF is simply pointing out that in ISKCON the GBC mandates such details of devotional practice and we could talk till we are all blue in the face, but it would neither have an effect, nor advance our understanding of GVism. That said, you point is valid, but I would say you are preaching to the choir in this sanga when it comes to adjusting details to effectively preach in any contemporary social setting. Some may feel that HDG is going to far, but as they say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating," let the implementation of Krishna West proves is validity by practical application. If it is successful you can be sure the leadership of ISKCON will rewrite any "laws" enacted to restrict it that are currently being considered.

BA: "you think?" Without question, it is so; such is the nature of guru-parampara. But if you take it to be a deviation, I suppose you are entitled to such an opinion. In saying that It is a a constituent of the GV tradition, I'm more concerned with its promotion of Caitanya's specific brand of Krishna bhakti than with its tendency to promote something looking like Gaudiya Matha. I can't imagine why GM would be the prama against which to measure ISKCON's GV-ness. Again, for me, I'm identifying with the "basics"; i.e., chant the mahāmantra, follow regulative principles, read GV śāstra...

BA: I think we are in full agreement on that matter.

LD: ISKCON is not a conservative institution. So many many things have changed Since Srila Prabhupada entered nitya-lila. Rather than try to name those things that have changed, try to name a few things that haven't changed since Srila Prabhupada entered nitya-lila. Hrdayananda m is a person who has a certain vision of what Krsna consciousness should look like. If he really believes that Krsna west is the appropriate vision for Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement ... Hrdayananda m should take his Krsna west movement public. Hrdayananda m should leave ISKCON and devote all his energy to his Krsna west society,

If Hrdayananda m is a pure devotee and he received this instruction from Krsna, all of this will become apparent and so many will be benefited. If not, then someone got some explaining to do.

BA: Just to clarify my prior statements: I'm not promoting an anti-Indian stance, like some Western Vaiṣṇavas appear to do. I'm all for India being what it is, and doing what it does when it is at its best (it should go without saying excepting matters such as the rampant noise/air/water/land pollution, litterbugs, corrupt police/politicians, crass misogyny, bald-face liars, pervasive poverty, widespread illiteracy, rampant censorship, draconian socio-economic hierarchies, small-minded racism, and so on). I just don't believe that authentic KC actually involves attempts at transforming any other country INTO India.

KEF: LP, iskcon is divided in two, the conservative members and the liberal / reformist members, and Krishna West is the clear example between the two branches inside iskcon, so lets them solve their issues with their laws and resolutions. I feel fortunate to have my Acharya who gives me clarity on the way I share Gaudiya Vaishnavism with my friends and people in general. What a relief to have a Mahanta who can tell you what to do and please Sriman Mahaprabhu instead of pleasing rules and regulations of an organization. Gaura Hari Bol!

[PADA: This is a good analysis. There is the camp of folks like Bhakti Vikas swami who is complaining about ISKCON's "Hindu-ization, over modernization etc.," and then there are the "liberal reformers" who want to have devotee wear Western clothes, have women gurus and etc.] 

BA: LD, the direction you have suggested is quite simply not feasible for HDG, who regards himself to be a loyal follower of ŚP, and hence, loyal member of ISKCON. To take your suggestion would involve, on HDG's part, a serious violation of ŚP's instructions to him, to work with ISKCON and the GBC in spreading KC around the world.

BA: YN, for better or worse, this is the institution which ŚP created, and I sincerely believe HDG to be doing his best to follow suit. His vision for KW is simply an attempt to deal with the realities of institutional integrity while promoting a distinctly Western style of KC. I'm not sure why one has to leave the institution in order to pursue a Western mode of KC. It seems to me that trying to produce such a wedge is only a polemic focused on externals, rather than one appreciating the internal spirit of expanding the Vaiṣṇava community in a practical, cooperative fashion.

KEF: BP by saying: "loyal follower of SP and hence loyal member of iskcon" you mean that senior and dedicated disciples of SP who are serving as spiritual masters outside of the iskcon institution (but under the umbrella of the trascendental iskcon) are not qualified as loyal followers of SP? I would like to know your answer on that matter. Thank you Prabhu.

BA: KP, Perhaps it would help if you understand that I myself do not live within any ISKCON community. I work independently, and my work is of value to a broader umbrella than even GV, but I do consider it to be a contribution to KC, in my own way. As for your question, I will simply clarify that this is the opinion which HDG has himself related to me. That is HIS understanding of the matter, and therefore, HE does not wish to operate outside of ISKCON.

KEF: BP, I got that, thank you. Can you please tell me if you personally accept that senior disciples of SP can serve as spiritual masters outside of the jurisdiction of the GBC (hence iskcon institution)? do you consider this senior disciples also loyal followers of SP?

BA: Y, I am aware of how the guru-śiśya-paramparā works. It is pretty well established as a tradition, so that there is nothing shocking about that. The problem, as I see it, and as I believe HDG sees it, is that the tradition works well in a situation like classical India, where one isn't concerned with such matters as saving the world from the brink of destruction, but is only concerned to save a small group of people who basically already have the same set of beliefs and practices that oneself does. To promote a system intended to transform the "hearts and minds of humanity at large", one needs more than parampara; one needs institutional programs, agendas, reforms, etc.

I can appreciate that maybe there are very many GVs who are content to promote their individual spiritual welfare, or maybe that of their own small communities, but who do not care about the fate of the world at large; such a renunciatory attitude reflects an element I have seen often enough even in ISKCON.

But that is not why ŚP established ISKCON.

BA: K, I am aware, for example, that Swami Tripurari serves outside the jurisdiction of ISKCON. And I am fine with that. But I do not personally understand that to be ŚP's wish for HDG. Indeed, I'm not sure why it matters whether I believe such or not. I thought we were concerned to establish why HDG does not wish to serve outside of ISKCON?

BA: Y, Ah, right. sorry, now I get what you mean.

KPL: Quoting from the mission statement: "We do this by offering the essential spiritual teaching and practice in its entirety, without requiring students and practitioners to embrace a new ethnicity composed of non-essential Eastern dress, cuisine, music etc. People in the West need and deserve the chance to practice genuine bhakti-yoga within an external culture that is comfortable and natural for them."

First question is, what would Prabhupada have said about this, when it was he who introduced Indian dress, cusine, music etc.? Second question is, is not gaudiya vaisnavism specifically about attaining braja-bhakti? So how is braja-bhakti going to introduced? Perhaps like a inner secret, as the scientologists do, by giving their inner secret first in their most advanced courses? Braja-bhakti is an open secret then, since it is mentioned as the ultimate goal in Bhagavad gita. Meaning then that there is no such thing as western krishna-bhakti.

KPL: Who then introduced Indian dress as 'uniform'? All stories I have heard even tells that Prabhupada was very specific in which style to wrap the dress. Prabhupada also taught a specific cooking style.

KEF: B Prabhu, it does matter your answer in order to know your roots and vision on matters related to iskcon and non-iskcon subjects. I would like to know your answer, if you consider loyal to SP the disciples who are serving as spiritual master outside of the iskcon institution? thank you.

EW: I'm very interested in the answer to Prisni's second question and am not sure how Hridayananda Maharaj deals with this issue.

SYG: Mmmmmmm....interesting..... And yes the kurta is an Islamic invention......lord Krishna never wore a kurta....... And the architecture of most of the temples of vrindavan have their inspiration from shah jajan who first promulgated this form of design after his term.as governor of Bengal....

SYG: Islam.has.this.same dilemma......is.saudi culture.of.1400 years ago to be adopted today....in dress.and eating etc.....well.there are some isloc conservatives.who say yes.. The prophets life style is called sunnah
.....and accepted as an ideal.....

SYG: As Hrydayanand correctly asserts....many aspects of so called vedic culture which islkcon as embraced is actually not vedic at all but Islamic....the kurta came to India from Iran......and has been adapted .....but does not originate in bharat.......

SYG: And most Anglo Saxons look bizaare in a dhoti.........

BSK: PL, you may also find people criticizing GV for taking sannyasa and wearing saffron clothes as not traditional. Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to be accepted as Vaishnavas by people in India. therefore he promoted certain style of dress and behaviour. But for preaching in West it is not essential and sometimes maybe even an obstacle. Srila Prabhupada was also boldly claiming "We are not Hindus". I think many devotees repeat these words but act completely opposite. HG approach could be good way to overcome stagnation in Iskcon`s preaching in West. Srila Prabhupada bhatisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura experimented with dressing his sannyasis in such a way that modern people would want to hear from them. There is a place for such things.

KPL: I searched, and it appears true. Does that mean then that iskcon is false, is not Prabhupada's design? That is mind-blowing.

SYG Personally I prefer wearing kurta pyjama.........very indoislamic

DGD nice reference to the forest fire D prabhu! was just revisiting that ch.19 in Bhagavatam while thinking about Vyas Puja. i thought its interesting how Krsna requests his friends to close their eyes and not be afraid, then upon opening them again, not only had He swallowed the fire, but the boys found themselves back at the Bhandira tree. Maybe a sub lesson in the lila is to be blind to the apparent differences in spiritual circles (especially if they cause out of control, burning conflict!) and underscore the ideal of full dependence on Krishna for shelter. anyhow, maybe not the direction of this forum but I follow HDG a bit, and saw you quoting BVT and couldn't resist! look forward to seeing you soon.

JD Thank you so much, prabhus, for giving your input and scholarship to this issue - I cannot thank you enough for your invaluable insights and devotional seriousness. Just one bit of minutia: the dress point. Maharaja not only preaches abandoning the dhoti/ sari style in public venues, but inside the temple as well, so that if all were said and done in his KW style, deity worship is to be conducted in "Western wear" as well

DGD Jaya, i stumbled into your forum so please forgive me for not having read all the posts. but i had a though from your last comment. I got to put Nitai Gaurachandra to sleep one night in my casual 'yoga' pants at Murari sevaka farm (i was there under the guidance of HH Hrdayananda Maharaj). my attire was clean, and my mind focused on the opportunity . I spent the whole winter chopping wood to keep the temple warm, and carrying water to take care of Tulasi Devi. So i felt close to Them. but in this case, there were only 4 devotees there and we were in the middle of the forest in southern TN! for the Gaura Purnima festival, when a congregational audience was visiting, we dressed in the finest dhotis I've ever seen! as the TP was a very brahminical devotee who was expert in fire yajnas and Diety worship. we took the ( super heavy!) Deities off the alter and let everyone bath them (they are so beautiful and kind!) and a sweet devotee made Them new outfits. so based on the circumstances we related with the Deity in a different way. I have had this kind of experience at every temple i have gone to or lived at. based on the local standard of worship there are certain guidelines to follow...just some experience from a person who learned about Krishna after growing up in the west.

Krishna Kirtan BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT SANNYASI "The next point is that you should dress just like perfect American gentlemen, but the sikha and tilak must be very prominent. Coat, pants, necktie, and everything, Brahmacari and Grhasthas, they can put on, because you are not Sannyasi."
[Srila Prabhupada, Letter, 68-10-06]

Swami Tripurari: JD -- If that is true it would be a departure from religious norms, not only from those of our tradition. Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, etc. all embrace ritualistic attire when engaging in the realm of ritual. Of course there are plenty of New Age churches where this attire is dispensed with, as is ritual itself. But ritual is very important to Gaudiya Vaisnavism it would seem. It provides a very practical way in which one can love God.

It is not my experience that the Western public is put off but such ritualistic attire, at least not in the performance of ritual itself. If what you say is true, KW appears very Protestant. Also Mahaprabhu did identify a form of Vaisnava dress when instructing Sanatana Goswami. Thakura Bhaktivinoda teaches that adopting this dress is anukula within the culture of saranagati. I don't think devotees should go to work in dhoties, nor necessarily attend temple programs in saris. But I think there is very much a place for such Vaisnava attire while engaging in seva-puja. And it is also very much appropriate and not at all off-putting for monastics to don the religious cloth even in public life.

Krishna Kirtan THE DRESS OF A SANNYASI: "According to the Vedic system, a sannyasi, a person in the renounced order of life, is dressed in saffron-colored garments. This saffron dress is practically a passport for the mendicant and sannyasi to go anywhere. The sannyasi’s duty is to enlighten people in Krsna consciousness. Those in the renounced order of life have no other business but preaching the glories and supremacy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." [Srimad-Bhagavatam, 3.15.31, Purport]

"The saffron dress worn by a sannyasī announces to the world that he has renounced all worldly affairs and is simply engaged in the service of the Lord. Such a devotee is actually a sannyasi, or liberated person." [Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.19.12, Purport]

RCH: Hare Krishna, please accept my obeisances. HDG is not advocating for only western clothes in the temple and he is not pushing for pujaris to wear western clothes while worshiping the deity, that point is inaccurate. I don't know if he spoke that way in the past, but that is not his current position on those issues. He does advocate proper dress according to time and circumstance.

He is simply trying to allow an opening into Krishna Consciousness for the average western person who is not comfortable with some of the cultural aspects of our practices. I, for one, am really praying for the success of Krishna West as it is something that will benefit my spiritual life. I am one of those folks who, somehow or another cannot fully adapt to the "vedic lifestyle" but I certainly would never want to be separate from ISKCON. I would like a place within our movement to practice Bhakti Yoga and not have to spend so much time and energy trying to get all of the cultural aspects right, not to feel so uncomfortable and out of place.

I think there must be others like me who would love Srila Prabhupada's books and can understand that bhakti yoga is the best path, but find the external aspects of our faith beautiful, yet exhausting to try and fully adapt to. That is my humble take on the matter and I hope that HH HDG's project will at least be given a chance to succeed. Thank you for letting me be part of this group and forgive any offenses I may have committed, communication through the comp is not my strong suit, but I felt the need to share my thoughts on this matter. Hare Krishna


[PADA: As usual, everything else caused the collapse, except the bogus gurus who made it collapse, ok like Hrdayananda. This is like the old saying, "The heirs to the king are always the people who kill the king." ys pd]


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