Roco: A ritvik ‘guru’ allowed to have their own disciples makes a mockery out of the guru parampara system of pure devotees.
[PADA: A ritvik is a merely priest, he does not have any "disciples of his own." For example, the priest in the Church does not have any disciples either, he makes disciples of Jesus. The priest is simply acting as an agent for the pure devotees. And this is confirmed on the May 28th tape where we find that when these priests deviate they have to be replaced (just as they are replaced in the church when they deviate. Yes, for the GBC to say these 11 ritviks had their own disciples is a mockery of pure devotees. Agreed.]
ROCO: Nowhere has Srila Prabhupada said that a spiritual master or a guru can be impure.
[PADA: Right, this is the entire thesis of the post 1977 GBC: they say gurus fall down; Gurus have illicit sex with men, women and children; Gurus shoot four loaded guns at occupied buildings in downtown areas; Gurus drink peppermint schnops; Gurus get certificates from Las Vegas Casinos for being their favored customers, etc.]
ROCO: I can accept that we all must be gurus and make devotees in the sense of being a teacher but making them our formal disciples means that we must be pure whether we are a proper guru or a ritvik guru it makes no difference but guru in the bonafide spiritual master sense is easy to accept and understand.
[PADA: No, the priest is not a pure devotee, he is at best a kanistha. That is why the kanistha is only a fallible agent who has to be replaced when he deviates too far, and so all of us are kanistha agents. We can thus only preach on behalf of the pure devotee, but we have to surrender the people we preach to -- at the Lotus feet of the pure devotee and not claim them as our own disciples. That is the ritvik process. Of course that is the whole system of many religions.]
ROCO: You say initiator must be pure, instructor need not be pure.
[PADA: Correct, the instructor (shiksha guru) is us, the neophytes, we can only preach to our level of realization which is not yet Krishna prema, we are only at best a shadow of that prema. We thus have to surrender people to the actual Krishna prema acharya and plug them into his process. That is what we did all along from 1965-1977 and it worked perfectly.]
ROCO: It is quite the opposite really. You speak as if initiation is what gives perfection, and instructions are somewhat secondary.
For example, Caitanya Mahaprabhu was formally initiated in sannyasa by mayavadi. But that meant nothing.
[PADA: Initiation means to accept the pure devotee as one's guru, and that means people will be reading his books and following his instructions. That was the system we had all along up to 1977 and it worked perfectly, as such ISKCON was expanding because we were all preaching on his behalf, and its also a fact that many people deviated, left, and blooped, and some even started eating beef steaks again, but the people they had previously preached to remained because they were now connected to the pure devotee, so that is the system that works.]
ROCO: For myself, I wouldn’t (don’t) mind being initiated by Bozo guru, as long as I don’t have to follow his instructions, but can follow pure Sampradaya acaryas. Problem is, when Bozo guru demands, that you take his nonsense ideas seriously. But that’s because he is Bozo, and will stay Bozo until he gets off his imaginary throne. You just don’t take seriously such screaming sociopath Bozo guru, you just let him be. You give your energy to instructions given by Sampradaya Acaryas, in ISKCON that meaning Srila Prabhupada in the first place.
[PADA: Bozos are not gurus.]
ROCO: Initiator can be official representative, officiating acarya. But spiritual master, instructor, must be pure. Therefore Srila Prabhupada put so much energy into his instructions, and not much into initiations.
[PADA: The instruction is the initiation, diksha means: divyam jnanam (di) which destroys sins (ksha), so by reading his books and following his instructions, that is diksha.]
ROCO: When we preach (give instructions, if you please), we must repeat what Srila Prabhupada said, otherwise we spoil everything. So, actually Srila prabhupada is speaking, through us. If we deviate from this, we become useless, because purity of instructions is what counts.
[PADA: Good! ys pd]
[PADA: A ritvik is a merely priest, he does not have any "disciples of his own." For example, the priest in the Church does not have any disciples either, he makes disciples of Jesus. The priest is simply acting as an agent for the pure devotees. And this is confirmed on the May 28th tape where we find that when these priests deviate they have to be replaced (just as they are replaced in the church when they deviate. Yes, for the GBC to say these 11 ritviks had their own disciples is a mockery of pure devotees. Agreed.]
ROCO: Nowhere has Srila Prabhupada said that a spiritual master or a guru can be impure.
[PADA: Right, this is the entire thesis of the post 1977 GBC: they say gurus fall down; Gurus have illicit sex with men, women and children; Gurus shoot four loaded guns at occupied buildings in downtown areas; Gurus drink peppermint schnops; Gurus get certificates from Las Vegas Casinos for being their favored customers, etc.]
ROCO: I can accept that we all must be gurus and make devotees in the sense of being a teacher but making them our formal disciples means that we must be pure whether we are a proper guru or a ritvik guru it makes no difference but guru in the bonafide spiritual master sense is easy to accept and understand.
[PADA: No, the priest is not a pure devotee, he is at best a kanistha. That is why the kanistha is only a fallible agent who has to be replaced when he deviates too far, and so all of us are kanistha agents. We can thus only preach on behalf of the pure devotee, but we have to surrender the people we preach to -- at the Lotus feet of the pure devotee and not claim them as our own disciples. That is the ritvik process. Of course that is the whole system of many religions.]
ROCO: You say initiator must be pure, instructor need not be pure.
[PADA: Correct, the instructor (shiksha guru) is us, the neophytes, we can only preach to our level of realization which is not yet Krishna prema, we are only at best a shadow of that prema. We thus have to surrender people to the actual Krishna prema acharya and plug them into his process. That is what we did all along from 1965-1977 and it worked perfectly.]
ROCO: It is quite the opposite really. You speak as if initiation is what gives perfection, and instructions are somewhat secondary.
For example, Caitanya Mahaprabhu was formally initiated in sannyasa by mayavadi. But that meant nothing.
[PADA: Initiation means to accept the pure devotee as one's guru, and that means people will be reading his books and following his instructions. That was the system we had all along up to 1977 and it worked perfectly, as such ISKCON was expanding because we were all preaching on his behalf, and its also a fact that many people deviated, left, and blooped, and some even started eating beef steaks again, but the people they had previously preached to remained because they were now connected to the pure devotee, so that is the system that works.]
ROCO: For myself, I wouldn’t (don’t) mind being initiated by Bozo guru, as long as I don’t have to follow his instructions, but can follow pure Sampradaya acaryas. Problem is, when Bozo guru demands, that you take his nonsense ideas seriously. But that’s because he is Bozo, and will stay Bozo until he gets off his imaginary throne. You just don’t take seriously such screaming sociopath Bozo guru, you just let him be. You give your energy to instructions given by Sampradaya Acaryas, in ISKCON that meaning Srila Prabhupada in the first place.
[PADA: Bozos are not gurus.]
ROCO: Initiator can be official representative, officiating acarya. But spiritual master, instructor, must be pure. Therefore Srila Prabhupada put so much energy into his instructions, and not much into initiations.
[PADA: The instruction is the initiation, diksha means: divyam jnanam (di) which destroys sins (ksha), so by reading his books and following his instructions, that is diksha.]
ROCO: When we preach (give instructions, if you please), we must repeat what Srila Prabhupada said, otherwise we spoil everything. So, actually Srila prabhupada is speaking, through us. If we deviate from this, we become useless, because purity of instructions is what counts.
[PADA: Good! ys pd]
No comments:
Post a Comment
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.