Srila Prabhupada told those disciples to use the ritvik system under the circumstances because he said (and you can find the quotes in other places) that they are not qualified to be guru. Srila Prabhupada DID NOT intend the ritvik system to be used for the rest of time, rather it is clearly stated in many places that the intention is ALWAYS that the sampradaya must go on as it has always done and as it is coming directly from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
The real reason the ritviks are somewhat shunned is because they undermine the very core principle of the continuation of the sampradaya, and this is completely against shastra and against Prabhupada and even against common sense. So there is a very good reason why the ritvik idea IS ONLY EVER MEANT TO BE A TEMPORARY MEASURE. The ritvik system IS NOT the system for the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, and that is just a FACT. Shastra, Sadhu and Guru all confirm this to be true.
So then who is genuine Acarya guru after Prabhupada?? Well, it is a fact that Srila Prabhupada directly instructed two of his disciples to become guru and accept disciples. That instruction was given to Gour Govinda Swami and to Radha Govinda Swami. This is confirmed by many sources, and their own life stories and exemplary actions and teachings are evidence of their qualification to be genuine gurus. As far as I know, these two personalities are qualified to be the next Acarya after Srila Prabhupada, that is my humble observation, and it is also the observation of others who much more senior and well-informed than me.
So the Sampradaya IS GOING ON. Whether or not people are aware that it is going, it is nonetheless definitely going on. And still nothing much has changed, it is simply our responsibility to completely surrender our lives to the service of the Holy Name and to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. That responsibility is OURS and no amount of amazing gurus is ever going to solve that problem for us, we have to take the initiative to surrender ourselves, and then Krishna will reciprocate and send us the Sadhu Sanga that we require to advance, according to our adhikar. Simply we must cry and cry for Krishna and His genuine pure devotee to help us. That is ALL.
LC: But the July 9,1977 Directive was the FINAL INSTRUCTIONS ON INITIATION,THUS RULING OUT GOUR GOVINDA AND RADHA GOVINDA SWAMI.WHAT WAS GIVEN IN WRITING OVERRULES ANYTHING PRIOR TO THAT.WHY DID GOUR GOVINDA COME TEN YEARS LATER TO CLAIM THAT GOUR GOVINDA IS SRILA PRABHUPADA'S SUCCESSOR.ONE WOULD STICK TO THE JULY 9, 1977 DIRECTIVE AS SRILA PRABHUPADA'S FINAL INSTRUCTIONS ON INITIATION IN ISKCON FOR THE NEXT TEN THOUSAND YEARS....NO ADDITION OR SUBTRACTION.DEPEND ON SRILA PRABHUPADA'S LEGAL DOCUMENTS AND NOT ON "HEARSAY"AND SPECULATION.
A Dasa: There is ALWAYS guru! tad vidhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya ... BG 4.34 You are taking the position of guru by giving these directions to people. And anyone who accepts your directions is acting as your disciple. And you are all cheaters only.
You should either surrender to a genuine sadhu guru, a pure devotee who has Prema Bhakti in his heart and who is fully surrendered unto Guru and Krishna, and who is chanting the pure Holy Name, or you should just shut your big mouth and get lost. Grow up.
[PADA: Notice that the genuine sadhu that we all need to surrender to has no name, no form, no books, no temples, no devotees, no proof said person exists. This is called mayavada. Whereas we are giving people specific direction, that is called shiksha guru and does not require full self realization. "There is a sadhu somewhere" is speculation, and it diverts people away from worship of the actual acharya going on some bogus guru hunting goose chase. "The parampara continues ... but there is no evidence it continues with us ... because we cannot identify how and where and with whom it continues." Bluff.
Of course when Gaura Govinda maharaja tells people to go out find a sadhu somewhere, he is really telling people to leave and seek associations outside of ISKCON. And that is how his policy has made ISKCON into a ghost town. Everyone left to go look for the phantasm "other guru." And it is for that reason many /most of his own followers went over to Narayan Maharaja after he departed.]
LC: Where is the PARAMPARA from Gour Govinda and other frauds in ISKCON. So much big talk about PARAMPARA.Srila Srila Prabhupada is the ONLY (SOLE) LINK TO KRISHNA.PERIOD...
[PADA: Right, Gaura Govinda was a link in the parampara, but who is his successor link? They cannot say? So their parampara ends with GGM?]
ZP: A Dasa, it is simple, name one proven gbc guru or any other that is Uttama adhikari without question.
[PADA: First of all, Gaura Govinda maharaja says sabda brahman does not descend from books and tapes, then his followers made a "tapes and books library" after he departed? These people are arguing with their own shadow. ys pd]
A Dasa: Podilchuk I've already named two. Gour Govinda Swami and Radha Govinda Swami. Uttama adhikaris without question. Fact.
[PADA: Gaura Govinda maharaja is not presently alive, so if he is the current pure devotee they are worshiping a departed person.]
A Dasa: PADA! You are another nonsense rascal, I've seen your work on the internet, it is only fake cheating in the name of upholding the truth. Yes you make some good points and yes evil things have been done in the name of ISKCON, but you are still a stupid fool nonetheless because you are committing Vaisnava aparadha. Your statement about Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja Archives (of which I am the current manager and caretaker) is so baseless and idiotic that it is not even worth a reply. Nonetheless, for the sake of defending Gurudev against offensive morons, I must give an answer.
Yes it is a fact that sabda brahma ONLY descends via the transparent via medium who is the personality Bhagavat, and this is confirmed numerous times in shastra. This is a fact! There is the book Bhagavat and there is the person Bhagavat, and sabda brahma descends via the person Bhagavat, which is exactly the reason why Sukadev Goswami SPOKE Bhagavatam, and then later Suta Goswami also SPOKE Bhagavatam, because it must be SPOKEN by the PERSON BHAGAVAT, who is 100% fully self realised pure devotee of Krishna.
This is confirmed by the Bhagavatam itself. You MUST surrender to the PERSON Bhagavat and hear from them. Nigama kalpatarau galitam phalam suka mukha ...... you all ought to know this basic simple self-evident fact.
Does this mean that the preservation of the teachings of previous Acaryas is a worthless endeavour?? Absolute not! You would have to be a blithering idiotic buffoon to conclude that the keeping of Archives for previous Acaryas is futile. Rather, it is a most noble and important endeavor, and I am blessed to have the good fortune to be given this service. And there is absolutely no doubt at all that Gour Govinda Swami is fully qualified as a genuine Acarya.
Actually this whole discussion is very good, and I am very happy that all the stupid ritviks have jumped onboard with trying to defend their hopeless position. Because it is has fully highlighted and revealed the blatant flaws and outright offensiveness of the ritvik mentality. Thank you for continuing to undermine yourselves, please do continue.
[PADA: Thanks but I am quoting GGM? He says sabda brahman does not descend from tapes and books, the same books and tapes our own Prabhupadanuga families and children are hearing and reading from. Why would he tell our families and children etc. not to bother listening to the acharyas, because there is no sabda brahman therein? Can you guys just answer a simple question for a change?
Our people should NOT bother listening to the tapes and read the books of the acharyas to get sabda brahman, they are wasting their time, there is no potency there, so they should listen to -- whom or what? And why not just answer the question?
I am sorry, but even when I met GGM he told me there is no living person in my scheme. Ummm, there are thousands of living people in my scheme, including me? Not sure why none of us can be considered as living? Again, makes no sense to me at all. We have temples, devotees, deities, programs, all being made with living people, and evidently, these people are not living? Makes no sense at all? Why not answer these points? Sorry, we are making new people all the time and yes, as a matter of fact, these people are all living. How can we say none of them are living? Really, if you guys make some sense, there would be no need to analyse your contrary statements. Sorry, the reason Srila Prabhupada made these books is, they are sabda brahman, that is the whole reason for their existence. ys pd
A Dasa: Tapes and books are very valuable. But they are never a replacement for the act of surrendering to a pure devotee Vaisnava Sadhu Guru. That process of surrender is mandated in many shastras and it is the basic principle of our entire Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. Your children (and everyone else) SHOULD listen to the tapes and read books, and hopefully that will bring them to the point of surrender to a living genuine Sadhu Guru, who can personally guide them and give them instructions, according to their own individual needs.
[PADA: The Gaura Govinda maharaja people never tell us who this alleged sadhu successor to GGM is, or even if he exists at all.]
Please put aside your anger against so many fake leaders in ISKCON. I also have great anger within me against fake gurus and fake leaders, but I do not allow that anger to cloud my proper judgement. Rather, we should make judgement based on Shastra, Sadhu AND GURU.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada says we need to name the guru, or else it is mayavada.]
Those three sources of spiritual authority TOGETHER constitute our guiding light and reveal the path towards Krishna Prema. If we only take Shastra and Sadhu, but do not accept GURU, then we are actually committing offenses against Shastra and against the Sadhus, because we are ignoring one of the key foundational principles given in the Shastra itself.
Now, to any ritvik who is chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regulative principles and reading Prabhupada's books and doing regular Harinam Sankirtan.... I humbly bow at your feet and beg for your forgiveness. I do not want to call you all morons and idiots actually. Please do not take offense.
Rather, it is the IDEA itself that is completely flawed and stupid. I am attacking the IDEA, because actually I am trying to help those who may read this, to consider the crucial importance of seeking out and accepting a genuine Sadhu Guru. We should encourage people to do so, because Shastra also encourages us to do so! Because it is very very valuable.
We MUST seek Sadhu, and we must take shelter from Sadhu. Otherwise everything will deteriorate into theoretical book-knowledge only, and that will be a great shame. So therefore, I beseech anyone who reads this; SEEK SADHU GURU. I know it may seem difficult, but nonetheless we must at least try!
PADA: We are giving them instructions, and then they are giving other people instructions. That is how we have now got thousands of people involved. Why would Gaura Govinda tell people that their reading the books of the acharya has no potency? That is discouraging people from following the whole process given by the acharya.
When Srila Prabhupada was here, many of his disciples never even met him, or they might see him give a lecture at their temple rarely. Few people were allowed into his room. I had to hassle to get to see him myself and that was also rare. So the main association with the acharya is by the vani, and to say there is no sabda brahman in the vani -- defeats everything Srila Prabhupada was doing. He was writing the books, then someone says, the books have no potency. Why would anyone do that? And why would we say his whole idea, you preach for two minutes, then let them read my books, be discouraged?
So as soon as people seek a sad guru, and they find one, and they read the books of the sad guru, they are not getting sabda brahman? That is the way I got the sabda brahman, I got a Bhagavad Gita, and that book literally saved my life. How can we say it has no potency, it is Krishna's own words? Our program is working. We have nice new people in China, Russia, Taiwan, Singapore, and so on and so forth. I really do not see hardly any new GGM temples anywhere? ys pd
A Dasa: Books and tapes definitely have potency. We all agree on this. Sabda brahma means spiritual sound vibration which is non-different from Krishna Himself i.e. Suddha Nama, which is purna suddha nitya mukhta abhinatvam nama-naminoh (Padma Purana) the Holy Name is Krishna Himself. That pure sound vibration comes only from the person who is chanting Suddha Nama. That is fact! My friend, please consider this carefully, this is a FACT!
Now consider this: you met Srila Prabhupada, you saw him and you saw his activities and the effect that he had and you personally were impacted directly by his influence. And subsequently you took shelter of him via books and tapes. Now compare that against someone who has NEVER met a pure Sadhu Guru, and simply they get given the same books and tapes.
Obviously the effect is not the same!!! The only reason why your preaching has been successful, as you say, is because of that influence from Srila Prabhupada directly, you were blessed in that way. It is by his potency only that you have been able to have any kind of success. And that potency came in PERSON. That is the point! Is it not?
SO WHY WOULD YOU DENY OTHERS THE SIMILAR OPPORTUNITY THAT YOU HAD?????
Please do not do this. Rather, please encourage people to seek genuine Sadhu Guru. Even if such a person is difficult to find (Krsna says in BG sa mahatma sudurlabha, very very rare indeed) nonetheless the endeavor to find Sadhu Guru and take shelter from that great personality is WORTHWHILE. Actually it is mandatory to try! We must at least try! And even if we fail in our search for Sadhu Guru, simply the act of trying will purify us greatly, because it means that we will be forced to completely surrender to Krishna and cry for His mercy. And that is a very great thing, in fact to cry for this mercy from Krishna is our goal! We must cry like this.
ZP: Your problem is that : He reasons ill who tell that Vaishnavas die, When thou are living still in sound! The Vaishnavas die to live, and living try To spread the holy name around!" Another problem is that GGS is not here and RGS is very reclusive and does those Bhagavat shapta things.
Prabhupāda is fully present in his books and audio and are as good as any personal association of an Uttama. Neither sadhu you mentioned were named as gurus by SP either tho. And why did the GBC want to censor GGS shortly before he passed away?
PADA: yep
ZP: GGS said that books and audio were passive.
A Dasa: Actually the only problem is that ritviks are not willing to surrender. In truth, that is actually the only problem. Pure Sadhus are always there. Seek and ye shall find. Krishna knows your heart. If He sees that you actually want to surrender to His direct personal representative, He will send you to meet that person. From my experience with every single ritvik I have ever had the misfortune to deal with, the fact is that they simply do not want this. And so Krishna does not give it to them. Simple.
And yes Gour Govinda Swami is correct to say that books and audio are passive ways of acquiring spiritual knowledge, because that pure sound vibration which is non-different from Krishna is not coming directly from the pure source himself, and so obviously the potency is not exactly the same. It's like eating an icecream vs watching a video of someone eating an icecream.
[PADA: Krishna knows their hearts, so He is leading people to the vani of the pure devotee. Agreed. I already said many direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada never even met him in person, they read his books. For Gaura Govinda maharaja to say all those disciples of Prabhupada have no connection him or to sabda brahman -- because they did not meet him physically in person -- is simply false.
Pretty simple really. Our Prabhupadanugas are numbering in the thousands, and they are making more and more temples, programs and so on. So there will be thousands more over time. In fact, thousands of people come just to the local Milpitas Prabhupadanugas program on festival days. And therefore, the Prabhupadanugas are making more devotees now. Whereas most of the Gaura Govinda Maharaja people are not making any new temples, programs devotees that we ever hear of.
So, which program has potency? The one that is expanding worldwide, or the one that seems to be stuck in 1980 and it is not hardly progressing? How many new centers and new devotees is the Gaura Govinda maharaj program making, and why do we not hear of much progress there? Where is it? I was just talking to some devotees in Russia, they are preaching, they are expanding, and they are explaining all this to others, how can we say it is not connected to sabda brahman? ys pd
A Dasa: If numbers of followers is the measure of spiritual advancement then the Ayatolla Khomenei of Iran was much much more successful than you or any of your friends. Your logic, and all the logic of the ritvik philosophy, is fundamentally flawed. The only reason you are holding onto a sinking ship is because you have personal investment in the power that it affords to you and your friends.
Anyway, I actually have a Harinam Sankirtan and preaching program scheduled in 30 minutes. Whenever I go and preach, I will tell people that surrendering to a genuine Sadhu Guru is MANDATORY and anyone who tells you otherwise is just a cheater only. And I don't care if I have a sum total of zero followers. The truth is still the truth, and no amount of name, fame, followers, prestige or reputation is a replacement for the truth.
PADA: So we are making devotees, deity programs, cow protection, temples, book printing etc. and this proves we have no sabda brahman, but the GGM program is making hardly anything, because they have the sabda brahman? Really? Well if you folks are not making followers -- then you are not following the whole process given by Srila Prabhupada.
He said he wanted us to make followers, and that is his truth and not mine. Now, making followers is not the truth? If you do not care if there are zero followers, you are not a follower yourself. We also have folks preaching and doing harinama in S. Africa, Sacramento etc. so they need to just fold up their program, and quit preaching? Because they have no sabda brahman? Why would you want that? Everyone needs to stop their program because there is no sabda brahman, meanwhile, we cannot find much sabda brahman life in the GGM program, it is for the most part disbanded in the USA except for a few hold outs. And who is your current living acharya anyway? Name please! ys pd
A Dasa: If you are doing all these things, then that means that you are acting as guru. You are acting as representative of Srila Prabhupada and you are giving these directions and people are following them. Therefore you are acting as guru. So you should not claim that there is no living guru, because you yourself are doing it!
You can go on with all these preaching programs, that is fine, but you must accept that living guru is always there. Whoever is leading the preaching, making devotees, training them, etc, that person is acting as guru. So you should not deny it, rather you should simply take responsibility for the truth of the matter. Your denial of this fact is simply a blatant lie only. That is obvious to everyone.
And you are making grave offense against Gour Govinda Swami, you should be very careful what you are doing. How can you claim to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and at the same criticize and blaspheme one of his most advanced and amazing disciples, who is a devotee from birth and who displayed genuinely transcendental symptoms and activities that only someone from the spiritual world can do?
Before you criticize him, perhaps try to follow the same things that he did, try and do it even for a few weeks, and you will completely fail. Because you are a cheater only. You criticize someone who is coming directly from the spiritual world because of envy only, and you would never in a million lifetimes be able to do the things that he did. That is a fact, but because of your arrogance you will not admit this fact.
Regarding your baseless and hysterical argument that numbers of followers is a determination of spiritual success, once again I must admit that you ritviks do a brilliant job of making yourselves look like proper idiots. What about Gaur Kishor Das Babaji? He only had one disciple, and that is our dear Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada. So according to your measure, he must have been a complete failure, because what kind of loser guru would only make one disciple??
You are such a fool, I do not even need to say anything to insult you. Rather, you do a perfectly good job of insulting yourself. And I am only saying these things because you are blaspheming Gurudev, and so it is my duty to destroy your futile arguments.
ZP: To what or whom should the rtviks surrender? They have surrendered to Prabhupāda but cannot surrender to a society that claims tons of so called maha Bhagavats who actually aren’t. Your GGS said iskcon was a kanistha society.
[PADA: There is a basis for criticizing some who says the words of the acharyas and Krishna are bereft of Sabda Brahman. And we see practically their program is the program without potency. Apart from that, you folks fail to tell us who is the current living successor to Gaura govinda maharaja, so it looks like a dead “living” link in any case. That is what Gaura govinda maharaja told me, there is no living person in my system. Wrong. There are thousands of them, including me and many others. To say all of us Prabhupadanugas are not living is simply denial of reality. Many disciples never met Srila prabhupada in person, to say none of them got the Sabda Brahman defies the whole process given by the acharya. Ys pd
A Dasa: Gour Govinda Swami never said that ISKCON is a Kanishta society. He always preached that we must uphold the prestige and reputation of ISKCON and that we must serve Srila Prabhupada by remaining within his society. You ritviks are liars and committers of great Vaisnava aparadha. This will be your downfall only.
[PADA: Gaura Govinda Maharaja told me iskcon appoints known homosexuals as their vishnupada acharyas and Kali Yuga has entered the highest places of iskcon. That is way LESS THAN KANISTHA. He also told me he has to cooperate, tolerate and work with the gbc. That is why we had to help have their program sued for $400,000,000 for child abuse. Even the courts know we are not supposed to cooperate with Kali. Meanwhile we still do not know who is the living successor to Gaura govinda maharaja. How can we tell people to surrender to a living person ... who has not been identified.]
A Dasa: PADA! You are nothing but an offender against your own guru because you have disobeyed his direct instructions. Srila Prabhupada directly instructed that we must stay within ISKCON and he directly instructed in his books such as Nectar of Devotion that we must surrender to sadhu guru, inquire from them, render service and serve them directly.
[PADA: A society that worships homosexual pedophilea and sexual predators as its acharyas ... is not ISKCON?]
Those are direct instructions from Prabhupada, which you and your friends have disobeyed. And yet you dare to compare yourself against a Mahabhagavat who has descended from the spiritual world such as Gour Govinda Swami. Therefore you are not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and none of the other ritviks are disciples of Srila Prabhupada, you are all liars and cheaters.
No one should accept you as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. You are not his disciple, and unless you beg forgiveness at the feet of all the Vaisnavas to whom you have made so many offenses, you will never be accepted by Srila Prabhupada. That is a fact. You can rant and rave about so many other ludicrous things. But unless you face this one single blatantly obvious truth, everyone will always know that you are all nothing but liars and cheaters.
[PADA: You have identified no living successor to Gaura govinda maharaja, We have to surrender to ... nobody? This is mayavada, we have to identify the person ... this is bluffing. There does not appear to be any successor? How can we preach to surrender to no one? Where is the succession?]
A Dasa: I cannot tell you whom to surrender to. Nor can anyone else. That is between you and God.
[PADA: So Srila Prabhupada made a huge mistake telling us we have to surrender to the proper guru parampara? He cannot tell us, nor can anyone, the end result is a rudderless free for all. Makes an open field for cheaters, no one should criticize -- then false gurus thrive.]
When He sees that you have given up your duplicity and are sincerely crying for Sadhu Guru, He will make the arrangement Himself. Otherwise you will only be cheated, and thus cheat others also.
[PADA: Why does Gaura Govinda Maharaja keep saying the people who worship Prabhupada are being cheated? Oh I forgot, he has a pocketful of pedophiles and deviants for us to worship instead.]
Yes that GGM society without envy lecture is a most wonderful lecture and it proves my point very nicely. You should all listen to that lecture, and you should all pray to Gour Govinda Swami and beg for his forgiveness for committing offenses against him. Otherwise your bhakti will be completely destroyed. You must do this, it is a very serious thing, you must all make sincere apology to Gour Govinda Swami, and do not repeat anymore offenses against him. How can you do such things? He is an amazing Sadhu Vaisnava. You must all give up this envious attitude that you have against him.
ZP: No one is offending him. There is no envy directed at him either. I met him at his last visit to the manor. He was a very advanced devotee. But the point stands that Prabhupāda would not be pleased with what has happened since his disappearance. Even your guru was banned from some temples and about to be censured shortly before he died. Abhirama Dasa the first and last point of surrender is to Srila Prabhupāda. He is the founder/ Acharya. Everyone else is siksa guru at best.
A Dasa: I am absolutely furious about the nonsense that has happened since Prabhupada's departure. Have no doubt about that. But what is my solution? Will I become a ritvik? Absolutely not, that is stupid. My solution is that I have quit my job, left my family, given away all my material possessions, and I am staying in Sri Puri Dham and I am doing Harinam Sankirtan every single day, and I am preserving and distributing the teachings of Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami freely online.
I am not waiting for someone else to provide the leadership and provide the facilities for positive change. Because if we wait, it will NEVER HAPPEN. Therefore my solution is that I am just stepping up and getting the job done. And my advice to anyone who might read this is to do the same. Aindra Prabhu also instructed me in this way when I stayed with him in Vrindavan. We must just surrender and do the needful. And we must cry and cry for pure Sadhu sanga.
We must not have this arrogant attitude that we think that we deserve pure Sadhu. We must not think that we can see Sadhu or that we can know Sadhu by our own efforts. That is just puffed up arrogance. We must completely surrender our lives to the Holy Name and cry and cry for Krishna to give us whatever He thinks is best for us, and we must depend completely on Him only. And then naturally, the Sadhu sanga will manifest. Otherwise it will never manifest. That is the process.
PADA: Srila Prabhupada says "all glories to Sri Guru" is mayavada. I was listening to another GGM fellow and he was saying the same thing, we have to surrender to guru --- a guru with no name, no books, no temples, no proof he even exists. Srila Prabhupada says -- We have to identify the guru -- by name -- or else we are mayavadas. We already know that when I was putting together the child molesting lawsuit against Tamal, Gaura Govinda Maharaja stood up at the GBC meeting and told the GBC not to remove Tamal because he is doing great service. Gaura Govinda Maharaja gave the name of the person he wanted to be worshiped as the acharya of ISKCON (Tamal), the person we are suing. We give the specific name of the specific guru we want people to worship, and it is not Tamal. ys pd
ZP: Prabhupāda is founder / Acharya. Primary. It’s not about ritvik. It’s about surrendering to the highest vaishnava possible.
PADA: Again! "All glories to Sri Guru," Srila Prabhupada specifically said we Vaishnavas cannot say that, because that is what the Mayavadas do. We have to name the specific guru, or else we are preaching mayavada. Our Prabhupadanuga process is a shiksha succession, everyone preaches on behalf of the acharya, and in that way they become shiksha gurus. I even had a terrible time with a follower of Gaura Govinda Maharaja when I asked him, who do we offer the bhogha to? He would not answer, but he said we cannot offer to Srila Prabhupada. We cannot offer bhogha to the acharya? ys pd
A Dasa: You are both missing the point entirely. I am not convinced that any of you ritviks actually have the genuine desire to surrender to anyone. I think that is really the problem here. There is just duplicity only. Even if Krsna sent a pure devotee to you, would you even want to surrender? Why should He send His direct representative to you?
First you must give up duplicity and become simple. Second you must genuinely cry for Krsna to send Sadhu to help you. And only then can you even begin to talk honestly about any of these matters.
PADA: All glories to Sri Guru is mayavada. It does not matter what we think or not think, it is mayavada, we have to name the guru. We also cannot cry to Krishna direct, that is sahajiya, we have to approach Krishna via the acharyas. A follower of Gaura Govinda Maharaja told me we cannot offer bhogha to Srila Prabhupada, we have to offer to the living person.
No name for this person? We offer bhogha to nobody? How will that work as a religion? Sorry, we have to offer to the acharya, that is the first principle of the Krishna religion. He refused to name the person we offer to, again, that is called mayavada. We cannot make offerings to the non-existing, it is not our siddhanta. ys pd
A Dasa: For me personally, I say "all glories to Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja and to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada". That is my personal choice. I name the Acaryas directly in this way, and that is my free choice to do so. I cannot force anyone to do the same, I can only try to do the best I can and give a good example.
In my childhood, Gour Govinda Swami told me to chant the Holy Name purely, and so I accept that instruction. That is all there is to it. But that is my own personal situation. Everyone is different, that is why it is a personal thing, and guru is a personal relationship. Each individual must take the responsibility to surrender themselves, no one can surrender on your behalf.
So I ask you all sincerely to please stop committing offenses against Gour Govinda Swami. Please stop this nonsense at least. And whomever you take spiritual instructions from is your business.
[PADA: It is personal, so our thousands of persons are reading Srila Prabhupada's books, and to say they are therefore not getting sabda brahman is attacking the process of vani seva. You also forgot to tell us who we offer the bhogha to? We cannot offer the bhogha to "the guru," that is phantasm. Why should I agree with people who say we cannot get sabda brahman from the acharya?]
A Dasa: I have already answered this argument of yours. Sabda Brahma means that person who is chanting Suddha Nama. If you are not chanting Suddha Nama, there is no Sabda Brahma. And Suddha Nama means free from offense, so therefore you are not chanting Suddha Nama because you have made so many offenses, therefore you cannot impart Sabda Brahma.
Suddha Nama is CHANTED BY A PERSON. Suddha Nama is not chanted by an electronic machine. Suddha Nama is the direct offering of Prema unto Sri Krishna by the soul. It comes from pure Sadhu Vaisnava only.
If you do not serve the Vaisnavas who are chanting Suddha Nama, you can never chant Suddha Nama. If you are committing offenses, you can go on chanting and reading books for millions of lifetimes, but you will never achieve Prema.
That is the unfortunate position of the foolish ritvik. They go on and on and on chanting and reading, but because of aparadha, and because of disobeying the orders of the spiritual master, they can never chant the Pure Holy Name. Therefore they will never get Krsna Prema.
ZP: Krsna sent Prabhupāda to save everyone. It’s his books that got us convinced. No one else’s books. And we keep it simple. Surrendering to Prabhupāda. Krsna already sent a sadhu. Prabhupāda. Is he not helping everyone already ? You are trying to get us to accept GGS whereas we are getting people to accept ACBSP.
A Dasa: If you are getting people to accept ACBSP, then you are acting as guru, because you are giving such spiritual instructions. By accepting your instructions, they are accepting YOU, because YOU are the one giving those instructions!
Similarly, if someone accepts my instructions, then they are accepting me. Or if they accept somebody else's instructions, then they are accepting that person.
That is each and everyone's own free will. Whomever you accept, and you follow their instructions, that person is like guru to you, because you are following them! That is what guru means!
It is not anybody's business to interfere with each person's free choice. You must CHOOSE whom to follow. And whoever is telling you that the ritvik system is the thing that you should follow, if you follow that person's ritvik system, then that person is your guru. So actually your guru is not Srila Prabhupada, rather the ritvik gurus are the leaders of the ritvik deviation, it is them whom the ritvik members are actually following. It is them who make propaganda for the ritvik movement. So they are acting as guru. And whoever accepts the ritvik system is their follower.
I do not accept the ritvik system, that is my free choice. I am searching for a living diksha guru, and Krsna will make the necessary arrangements when the time is right. I have full faith in that. And I would strongly advise everyone to also surrender to a living Sadhu guru and accept initiation, because this is directly instructed in shastra, and so if we disobey this instruction, we can never chant the Pure Holy Name! Sanatana Goswami instructs us in Hari Bhakti Vilasa that there should be a one year testing period and the guru should test the disciple and the disciple should also test the guru. We should not accept blindly. We should act according to shastra.
The ritvik system is a deviation because it blatantly disobeys shastra. Anyone who preaches the ritvik system is not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, rather they are outcastes from the sampradaya. That is a fact.
[PADA: So there is no actually named guru now? Srila Prabhupada's whole mission is to get people to choose the right guru. He never said we should allow people to go find any guru everywhere and anywhere, rather he said we have to direct the ignorant people to the proper parampara and the proper system given by Krishna. When I told Gaura Govinda maharaja we are promoting Srila Prabhupada, he said that is bogus because there is no living person in our system.
How could he say none of our people are living? That makes no sense. Yes, people who accept our idea are accepting us as their shiksha guru, and that is why we are expanding, we are engaging thousands of people as shiksha gurus. Gaura Govinda does interfere with people's choices? The GBC chose to get rid of Tamal, and they should have, because we were organizing a lawsuit against him at that time. So "keeping Tamal" means, now the whole ISKCON will be sued -- and it was.
GGM's Keeping Tamal is how ISKCON was bankrupted, Gaura Govinda maharaja interfered and that caused the whole ISKCON society to be taken down in court. Meanwhile, you have not explained how the people reading Srila Prabhupada's books are not getting sabda brahman? And yes, no name for the guru is mayavada, you still have not explained why it is not mayavada? ys pd]
A Dasa: I've already answered all your arguments. And you have actually defeated your own arguments because your logic is self-contradictory. Enough said.
[PADA: Yet you have not even told me why a Gaura Govinda maharaja person says we cannot offer bhogha to Srila Prabhupada, because we need to offer to the live person, whom he could not name? Srila Prabhupada made a specific system for offering bhogha and it is strange that some of the followers of Gaura Govinda maharaja do not even know what that system is, whereas our newer people are trained in that from the early stages.
If we are not even training people in the most basic points, I have no idea how you plan to conduct an institution? In an institution, everyone offers the bhogha according to the instructions of the acharya, we do not have people offering bhogha to whomever they want to with whatever prayers they want to, how can we manage a society on the platform? ys pd]
A Dasa: Gour Govinda Swami never said we cannot offer bhoga to Srila Prabhupada. He himself offered everything to Srila Prabhupada. You are a moron.
[PADA: Sorry, Gaura Govinda maharaja was one of the people who vociferously defended Tamal Krishna swami, whose photo was on the altars and people were offering their bhogha to Tamal. I am amazed you are unaware that the Gaura Govinda maharaja / GBC guru parampara places photos of conditioned souls on the altars and offers bhogha to these photos. We should accept Srila Prabhupada as our acharya, but offer our bhogha to people like Tamal?
A Dasa: that is all a bunch of manipulated lies and misrepresentation of the facts. You do not have a leg to stand on and so you are grasping at straws. It is really quite pathetic. It is plainly obvious that you have lost everything here. And so I will leave this conversation and get on with my seva for Guru and Gauranga. Maybe the rest of you should do the same.
PADA: No, Gaura Govinda Maharaja personally told me he has to "tolerate, cooperate and work with" the GBC gurus. And he was well known to be speaking in defense of keeping various people to "keep the unity." His followers told me that when we met, GGM was trying to keep the GBC unified.
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