Kailash Chandra Folks: Books Give Diksha / Don't Give Diksha Simultaneously

PADA: (EJ) You said that the people have to meet the guru in person, but hundreds of disciples of Prabhupada never met him, physically? They connected through the books and tapes. Why would anyone say that the disciples of the acharya are not connected? Kailash says these people have an "artificial connection." 

Yet Srila Prabhupada said, they are connected to him through his books. Why aren't our people who are following the same system of reading the books also connected? Are why would people be saying there is no divyam jnanam that destroys sins (diksha) in the books? 

And as you said, Krishna can deliver who He likes, why can't He deliver our people who are reading the same books Srila Prabhupada's disciples read in the 1970s? Wait! Now you are agreeing that they got divyam jnanam that destroys sins from the books! That is what we said the whole time? 

Why are the books any less potent now, does Krishna's potency get dead and dying and withdrawn like material objects that get old and die, or is it eternal? Krishna can deliver whomever He likes, but he cannot deliver the people who are getting divyam jnanam from the books? You are making no sense. ys pd

EJ: What "you folks" are doing, saying Srila Prabhupada is still granting wholesale diksa, is not, however, the self-evident arrangement of the pure devotee. You can't throw out all his countervailing orders because you feel like. A sincere person will follow the orders in the books not what you or other rittvik advocates screw out of the last conversations and letters.

PADA: The books are giving wholesale diksha? All of the books contain divyam jnanam that destroys sins. Yes, these books were distributed wholesale. Or are you not aware the books were distributed wholesale, and to millions of people?

We said that divyam jananam that destroys sins is in the books, you just said that is correct. There never was any order that people had to meet the acharya in person, he said people would get his association from the books. 

I never screwed anything out of anything, I always believed the books contained divyam jnanam that destroys sins the whole time, I never cared much for the so-called final order or any other specific document, because the books themselves speak for themselves. There is no counter order, he said distribute my books because my books contain my divyam jnanam, that it what their destroys sins, that was always the order and still is. No counter order was ever given nor have you cited any. ys pd

EJ: You don't read what I write but just launch into your aggression. You don't know if people are sincere enough to be delivered from sin and receive lasting divyam jnanam. 

[PADA: You do not know if our people either are, or are not, getting divyam jnanam that destroys sins. You are speculating. How do you know all of our people either are, or are not, sincere? And you are sincere because you are saying they are bogus, while they are the people making web sites for original books, and Kailash never even steers people to our program. He does not even do the required service of making original books sites, nor advertising ours. And he attacks anyone who does make original book sites as "not connected." He is aggressing our people.]

EJ: I already said some will and some won't. The standard physical spiritual master arrangement is better, especially in kali yuga when everyone is so fallen, especially in the West where they are worse. People need to feel the weight of a real physical guru. You can be accused of killing people spiritually. If the person who could have developed the sincerity to contact an physically manifest uttama adhikari believes what you are preaching the whole world suffers.

PADA: Our people need to surrender to an uttama -- who has no name? That is mayavada. You do not even have an uttama for them to surrender to? We cannot tell people to surrender to a person whom we cannot prove -- even exists? 

Sorry! I read what you wrote, you said that the divyam janam which destroys sins comes from the books, exactly what I said. And you cited no quote where that system was to be changed. Nor has Kailash ever quoted anything where that system was to be changed, nor has anyone else. 

There is no order to change that system. People are feeling the weight of these books, that is -- except perhaps -- yourself? Our people are writing nice testimonies from reading the books, why don't you folks do that as well? Yes telling people that they cannot get divyam jnanam that destroys sins -- is killing them, I would say I agree. ys pd

 EJ: We're not having a civilized meaningful discussion here. You're not interested in discussing reality. Your constantly twist what I write into something else. Call it what you will, Srila Prabhupada never said he wanted to accept the hundreds of people as diksa disciples that "you people" are convincing he is. Didn't we have the first of these obnoxious interchanges by mail in the 90's. I'm done with this prabhu. your servant.

PADA: Srila Prabhupada said he wanted millions of followers and that is why he wanted millions of books distributed. He never said he wanted only hundreds, he wanted millions.

And you yourself just said that the disciples who do not meet the guru physically can still get the divyam jnaman which destroys sins, from the books. That has never changed, it was being used then and is being used now. I am saying, you are correct. The books are giving the diksha. 

He never said that would change -- nor have you cited where he said that would change. And for Kailash to have his papers being circulated by Tamal's best bud Trivrikrama tells me all I need to know about his writings, he is in league with them, that is why they love and promote what he says. 

Srila Prabhupada gave out millions of books, he was giving divyam jnanam that destroys sins to millions of people, you are right he never said we should make hundreds of disciples, he said -- make millions. You finally answered my point, the books are giving the diksha, thanks for that, it is an big improvement from our prior discussions. ys pd

Torben Nielson: The books gives knowledge, that is 'initiation', granted. But OBVIOUSLY not the initiation that Srila Prabhupada talks about when he explains about his OFFICIAL initiation:

"So anyway, from 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression of preaching Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And that was the initiation by my Guru Mahārāja. Then officially I was initiated in 1933, because in 1923 I left Calcutta."

(Srila Prabhupada, 10th December, 1976, Hyderabad.)

Obviously we are not officially initiated by the books.
What nonsense. What utter nonsense.

[PADA: The books are giving our people divyam jnamam that destroys sins. That is called diksha. I am sorry you have no idea what the term "diksha" is. It is divyam jnanam that destroys sins. 

To say that our people are not getting divyam jnanam that is destroying their sins, is what the GBC says. We do not follow them? If you have no process to give people divyam jnanam that destroys sins, that is the same as the GBC, they do not either. 

Did I forget to mention your telling people to never mind Srila Prabhupada and go out find another guru is sending them to the GBC gurus, Narayan Maharaja, Gaudiya Matha, Babajis programs? You are their best recruiters, and that is why they cite Kailash. To say the books give diksha and don't give diksha at the same time is a contradiction. Srila Prabhupada says contradiction means mayavada. And that is also why you cannot name your diksha guru, you have no one for people to worhsip as their diksha guru. 

I am glad that you want people to worship a guru who has no name, no books, no body, no temples, no proof of existing. That makes it easy for us to expose your program, it is clear mayavada -- the guru -- who does not exist. 

ys pd]