Thursday, July 5, 2018

PADA Reply to Makhanchora das (BLISS)

By: Makhancora dasa

The root cause of the “book changes “ controversy is that on the 22nd of June 1977 Srila Prabhupada spots a book change in the first (also known as original) edition of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. An exchange follows on the topic of “rascal editors,“ where Srila Prabhupada claims that:

1. He cannot check the editorial work and they are editing without any authority: “It is not possible for me to check, and they are doing all nonsense, freedom.” (Conversation, “Rascal Editors,” and Morning Talk — June 22, 1977, Vrndavana)

2. That Hayagriva “has changed so many things“ in the original edition of Easy Journey to Other Planets: “That Easy Journey, original, this (indistinct) Hayagriva has changed so many things.” (Conversation, “Rascal Editors,” and Morning Talk — June 22, 1977, Vrndavana)

3. Devotees with philosophical grounding should be appointed to supervise future editing: 

Prabhupada: So on the whole, these dangerous things are going on. How to check it?
Tamala Krsna: There has to be strong philosophical leaders who can check this, like Satsvarupa and Jayadvaita.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: They have to also be included in the decisions of the BBT. It can’t simply be that managers make decisions.
Prabhupada: Yes. Without their sanction, there will be… Let them… These all rascals… (Conversation, “Rascal Editors,” and Morning Talk — June 22, 1977, Vrndavana)

4. Next printing should be again to the original way:

“You write one letter that “Why you have made so many changes?” And whom to write? Who will care? All rascals are there. Write to Satsvarupa that “This is the position. They are doing anything and everything at their whim.” The next printing should be again to the original way.”

(Conversation, “Rascal Editors,” and Morning Talk — June 22, 1977, Vrndavana)

It is very clear from this conversation that Srila Prabhupada complains about unauthorized changes in the first editions of his books. The question is: should these books be printed and distributed anyway as they are the books Srila Prabhupada himself used in his lila for preaching and the editing is done by devotees Srila Prabhupada himself approved of at certain time? Or should the changes be corrected with the original words of Srila Prabhupada put back in place despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada is not here physically to approve such new editions?

[PADA: The first question is, even if some corrections are agreed to, who has a license to print ANY version of ANY re-edited books? The next question is, who is the editor that can be agreed to? As we see already, Purujit created a big controversy when he declared himself the superior editor to the books already approved for preaching use and printing. 

These same books have ALREADY been used by Srila Prabhupada extensively. And these same books have ALREADY been used to make thousands of devotees, and still are being used NOW to make MORE devotees. And these same books are being read personally by perhaps tens of thousands of devotees around the world TODAY. So, chopping the legs of credibility for these books is seen as an attack on what Srila Prabhupada (and his devotees) have been doing.

Also! Assuming that the books used in the early 1970s are defective, and a new edit is required, we cannot print a new edit without a NEW license for that edition in any case? We have already had many legal battles in obtaining the current use we have of these books, and we individually (or as a group) are not prepared to launch into another legal battle at this point.  

Nor are you BLISS folks prepared such an endeavor either, rather -- you folks would be immediately swamped in any form of legal battle. Of course, if you can somehow get a NEW use license, that would be interesting to see, but we are pretty sure that is NEVER going to happen, at least not anytime soon. OK probably you'll never have any form of license. Ever! It seems to be all bluff and fluff? 

Neither do you have resources for that endeavor. So its a mute point to argue whether we can go forward using your "no license needed" idea or not, since some folks already tried going forward with no license and it does not work over the long haul. Its not practical. Its also not practical to start printing our own Stephen King novels in our basement and start selling them, its simply not legal and / or practical to do so.  

And its ALREADY proven to be very expensive to print books and then have them frozen at the printers by the courts. You guys are not ready for such a legal battle, period. Nor have you helped us with ANY these legal battles ever, and I mean EVER. Period. Nor could you help us even if you wanted to, you have no ability for that, period. You simply do not have ANY PLAN nor the capacity for such a battle. Its all bluff and bluster.   

And its like saying, you PADA friends are driving a faulty Volkswagen, we have a nice new Cadillac, you should drive our newly edited car. Fine except, our Volkswagen has legal license plates and your Cadillac does not? We cannot sail off driving in an un-licensed car, or we will eventually get pulled over, as happened in India recently, where our books were confiscated. Why do we want to drive a car that has no license plates?  

So you BLISS folks want us to drive a car that at any time can be confiscated, and maybe have some of the people we sold these cars to engaged in EXPENSIVE legal imbroglios. This is totally not practical. Again! Nor do we want to encourage people to assist illegal un-licensed actions, because it might end up costing them big problems and big money, as it has for some folks already. Why should we encourage illegal and un-licensed action among our friends, knowing it has already got some of them into EXPENSIVE troubles already? Why not use our valuable time distributing the books we ALREADY have being printed? 

The next question? 

Srila Prabhupada used these books and he had perhaps millions of them printed, and he also had them translated into many languages. These are the books he used and all of ISKCON used for his preaching work. So it does appear that he authorized certain people to edit and he accepted their work overall, of course since these editors are not perfected beings some apparent discrepancies may have appeared. 

And that is why Srila Prabhupada said that the transcendental message is available in his books even if irregularly composed. This was the same thing as the Delhi editions, there were various apparent grammar and punctuation problems, but the books were fully potent for a sincere reader. So perhaps our licensed books are the exclusive BOOKS Krishna wanted us to have and to use! Maybe this is all His transcendental arrangement? If Krishna wanted us to use your book, He could have arranged that. He didn't. Maybe the books He already used are the books He wanted used the whole while?   

Now if Srila Prabhupada had wanted all the book printing to grind to a halt and have the books re-edited, he would have ordered that to be done in specific detail, naming the specific people to be used and giving a specific time table for these re-edits to be done. Yep! Some specific editor or panel of editors would have been named and used at the time for that purpose, but no specific plan was ever fully detailed or executed for that task? Because it was never a priority issue, self evidently. 

Fast forward to now, and Purujit suddenly claims he is being named as the new editor. OK, where is the proof of that? And if the manuscripts were typed by various people, how do we know they were typed exactly and so on and so forth? So the books he used are the books we know were approved overall, and they have been very effective. And we have a license to distribute them, so its working out practically. We now have no proof Purujit has been named as the new editor, and the only thing we do have proof is -- he has no license? 

However you really answered your own question, Srila Prabhupada approved of using the early edition, and he cited from them himself, and printed them and gave numerous classes from them, but as you say yourself, he is not here to approve another edition. Therefore its speculation to assume he wanted another edit to be done after the fact. Nor could another edition be printed large scale with no license, so its a waste of time to try to promote something that cannot be promoted in any event?  

So, another editor or a panel of editors would have been named if he had wanted that to be done then. Then he could have approved or not approved these new edits. In other words, some plan would have been made to go back to the original manuscripts and make the books closer to that version if that was his clear order. Its not clear that is what he ordered, no major outline was ever made, and he is not here to approve in any case.

To sum! No detailed plan was ever executed for these re-edits, and no one was named to be the "better re-editor," and moreover he authorized the EXISTING books being translated, printed and used in literally the millions. If the product was that defective, he would have ordered an immediate new system with new people to correct the product, he never did.]  

Srila Prabhupada suggested on various occasions concrete examples on how to correct his books. For example he stated that the word “cattle raising “ (raising cows for slaughter) should be replaced for “cow protection“ in the Bhagavad-gita As It Is, in the verse where Krsna prescribes the occupational duty of a vaisya in the varnasrama system (Bg 18.44). Some devotees claim that only these corrections should be made and nothing else. They claim that correcting anything more than this would be surpassing Srila Prabhupada’s authorization of the early editors. 

Thus an offense would be made to the early editors and to Srila Prabhupada as well. They also interpret Srila Prabhupada’s statement: “The next printing should be again to the original way“ as referring to the already published editions. All these theories break apart when examined on the basis of the Rascal editors conversation and Srila Prabhupada’s own statements and we would like to highlight this for the benefit of advancing this controversy into a resolution.

[PADA: The BLISS program has so far provided zero evidence that a new editing was specifically ordered by a specific "new editor," or that Purujit was named as that new editor? As far as controversy is concerned, Purujit made the whole controversy himself? For example, Jagganath Balaram said that Hansadutta sorted all this out, and he said we have to use Purujit to re-edit the books. Not true. Hansadutta advertises the 1972, and more importantly, Hansadutta has no licence to produce another version even if he wanted to. 

Nor does BLISS / Purujit have any licence to produce a new edit either. 

So even if we assume another edit is a good idea, its not legal to produce in large quantity. We already have examples of people getting into legal trouble with the GBC over various trade mark issues, why would we tell people to go ahead and use a non-licensed book which might get them into legal trouble? 

Of course if we assume that the EXISTING books Srila Prabhupada personally used are like our Bibles, as many devotees do, how many of these people are going to accept that Purujit's new Bible is the better one? OK, hardly anyone. Rather many / most people are now poking holes in his attempt and making jokes and worse, COMPARING Purujit's ideas to to Jayadvaita's ideas!  

So this is coming down to (A) Purujit is attacking the integrity of the 1972, meanwhile (B) he has no license authority to make another edition. Therefore under the Purujit scheme, we have no usable books AT ALL to use for larger scale printing. I am not sure how having no usable (licensed) books is a good idea? You keep saying we are silent on this, nope, we asked about this all along and you blocked us when we asked.] 

Therefore devotees who oppose our B.L.I.S.S. book-editing project are invited to answer the following:

1: If Prabhupada wants to reprint the 1972 Bhagavatam edition and only fix a few typos like "of the sages“ to "oh, sages," why is he agreeing on setting up an editing board of philosophically erudite devotees like Satsvarupa and Jayadvaita? What is there to philosophize?

[PADA: This was never set up? Nor were Satvarupa and Jayadvaita proven to be reliable people for editing over the long haul. The fall back position is the books he used at the time.]

Prabhupada: So you… What you are going… It is very serious situation. You write one letter that “Why you have made so many changes?” And whom to write? Who will care? All rascals are there. Write to Satsvarupa that “This is the position. They are doing anything and everything at their whim.” The next printing should be again to the original way.
Tamala Krsna: They should have a board of Satsvarupa and Jayadvaita.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: Those two men are both in Los Angeles now.
Prabhupada: So write them immediately that “The rascal editors, they are doing havoc, and they are being maintained by Ramesvara and party.”
(Conversation, “Rascal Editors,” and Morning Talk — June 22, 1977, Vrndavana)

2: Why Prabhupada doesn’t protest when Tamal Krsna suggests to go through all the books and re-edit them? Prabhupada simply concludes: "They cannot change anything."

Prabhupada: So WHAT TO DO?
Tamala Krsna: So I think we just have to be slow but sure. We have to GO OVER ALL OF THE BOOKS and make sure that they’re perfect before they’re printed again. Not be in such a rush, print, print, and print all nonsense.

Svarupa Damodara: One time I had a strong talk with Ramesvara Maharaja about our article for printing in the Back to Godhead. I didn’t want them to be printed in Back to Godhead because they made so many changes…
Prabhupada: Oh, he has dared to change yours also?

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes. They change so many things in our article. And it was on the telephone. I was speaking to him in Atlanta from Los Angeles. And I told him that “This article should not be printed because they have made so many changes.” And I didn’t like that. Then they answered that “It has already been offset, and BBT policy is always to be rushing. It’s always BBT policy.” Then I told him that “If you sacrifice quality on the strength of rushing, then it is your business, but that’s not my way, so please don’t print it.” But in any case, they have printed anyway that article. And we all had a bad reaction.
Prabhupada: So you bring this to Satsvarupa. They cannot change anything.”
(Conversation, “Rascal Editors,” and Morning Talk — June 22, 1977, Vrndavana)

Here Tamal clearly suggests to go over ALL THE BOOKS (including the Bhagavad-gita As It Is). Can anyone with a sane mind think that Srila Prabhupada would calmly let this suggestion pass if it was such an offense? He clearly asks for a solution. Tamal gives the solution: Go over all the books and fix whatever changes have been done by the editors. The fact that Srila Prabhupada does not protest, does not reject, does not in any way disprove such an idea means it is at least a good idea to consider. 

[PADA: It may or may not be a good idea, but if there is no license to make further edited books, they cannot be used large scale in any case? A good idea has to have practical application. The only reason we got a license at all was because these early 1970s books had already been made, so the court agreed that these are the original editions. Will the court agree that you are the original edition? Well maybe if you are ready to spend a few hundred thousand on a court case to prove that. Are you? Nope. Its all bluff and bluster. 

A brand new edition would require another court case, and lets be honest, you guys will never put anything like that together. So you are attacking the 1972 books, and have no ability to mass print any other edition, so again we come back to your plan -- we will have no 1972 -- and your edition will not be usable, so we have no books to use at all. I am not sure why you guys keep telling us that is the better plan? No usable books at all is the better plan?] 

There is also a follow-up correspondence between Tamal Krsna and Radha-Vallabha (who is being criticized by Prabhupada in the conversation), where Tamal paraphrases Srila Prabhupada on who is authorized to edit the books (the one who does not make mistakes a.k.a. change things) and that the editing process should continue ("all the corrections in the new editions" "without unnecessary changes"):

So far as who is “authorized” and “unauthorized”, it is the same as when the GBC spoke with Srila Prabhupada about “legal” and “illegal” distribution. Srila Prabhupada’s definition of what is legal is “whatever sells my books.” In the same way, as long as the editors edit everything perfectly they are “authorized” and when they make mistakes, whatever the reason is then they become “unauthorized.” When you do everything nicely you are praised and when some mistake is there, you are a “rascal.” This is true for all of us.

[PADA: Well what is true is that Purujit is also going to be making mistakes in his editing because he too is another conditioned soul editor. Why are his mistakes superior to other people's mistakes? And if his book has no license, we cannot use it even if it is free of mistakes? You guys keep going around in the same big circle, going nowhere?]  

"In any case His Divine Grace has not thought about this editing matter since the day of that conversation which was nearly a month ago. Please just try to make all the corrections in the new editions and everything will be alright, and of course don’t make any unnecessary changes. Please take Yasodanandan’s letter in a constructive way.” (From: Tamal Krishna to Radha-Vallabha, July 22nd, 1977)

Note: someone may argue that letters from Tamal are no argument or evidence, cuz he is a demon or what not. Mind, that the July 9th Letter was also written by Tamal… the letter from Tamal to Radha-Vallabha makes perfect sense in the light of what was discussed in the “Rascal editors” conversation and has to be taken into account as Tamal is a direct witness to conversations that took place off the record on this topic and Srila Prabhupada’s secretary at that time. The editing is to continue but in a proper manner – no changes and correct all the nonsense that has been printed previously.

[PADA: Corrected by whom?]

3. In an instance before ordering the next printing to the original way by Prabhupada, Yasodanandana Prabhu mentions that the word "caricature" was left out from the text in that Srimad Bhagavatam:
Yasodanandana points out the change, saying that it was unnecessary indicating that it should be there in the text. Prabhupada doesn’t approve or disapprove, he doesn’t address the point directly. Let’s say, theoretically, that you are now in charge of the BBT; would you print the new Bhagavatam with the “caricature“ or without it? And why?

[PADA: OK but even the changes Srila Prabhupada wanted cannot be made with our current license agreement? So even if we made an edition with a bunch of changes, we cannot sell it widely? Its of no use to tell people they need to purchase a book that cannot be produced and sold widely in the first place? You need our Cadillac, but it has no license plates. OK we cannot use it, and its going to get us into trouble using your car with no license plates?]

4. What about the Sri Isopanisad?

[PADA: Same point, we cannot produce and sell a book that has no license agreement. And neither will you BLISS people be able to either over the long haul. You do not have the resources for a large scale court case to sue the BBT to get the rights to change -- even a comma.]

Please let us know which one is the correct version:

[PADA: Ditto as above.] 

One significant change made by Hayagriva against what Prabhupada originally wrote in the Easy Journey is that in the version printed by Srila Prabhupada in India there is the following description of one of the five essential items preparing one for the journey back home, back to Godhead:

3. One should hear the transcendental topics enunciated in the Bhagwat. This hearing is made possible through platform lectures as well as through press propaganda. And this item includes the other two items as above mentioned.”
(EJtOP Delhi edition)

The “above mentioned” items are associating with devotees and chanting of the holy name of the Lord. However, in the 1972 first western printing, it says:

3. One should hear the transcendental topics enunciated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. This hearing is made possible through platform lectures by bona fide devotees and by authorized translations of the Bhagavatam.
(EJtOP 1: Antimaterial Worlds, 1972)

In other words Srila Prabhupada clearly writes here that one can associate with devotees through hearing and reading. This information has been removed by Hayagriva for no reason!

[PADA: So you keep not answering the first question, how are you going to get a license to re-edit any or all of the books? I see you guys having zero plan to do that? All you are doing is attacking the books in use, but you have zero plan to make a court case to get a license to produce any other edited version, including yours? Its a waste of time to attack the books in use when you have no ability to make an edited version wide scale of your own?]

Srila Prabhupada wants his books to be perfect:

Prabhupada: We have to edit in such a way, present our literature in such a way that it will be gospel truth.
Devotee: Oh!
Prabhupada: Authorized. That people will refer to our books. So we have to very cautiously print our literatures. It is not ordinary literature, fiction, or something, story. Just like Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavata. They are not ordinary. literature. Without any four defects of human frailties. Bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, also… We are following those literatures. So our writing should be so authorized that in future one may not find any fault, contradiction.
(Conversation with the GBC — May 25, 1972, Los Angeles)

Vidura Mahatma dasa, after being asked these questions fell silent, neither Tim Lee has any answer. I challenge the opponents and critics of our B.L.I.S.S. project to answer these questions and thus prove their grounded position in understanding the desire of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada regarding his transcendental books.

Your lowly servant
Makhancora dasa
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

[PADA: No we did not fall silent, we said hardly no one we know of accepts that Purujit will make a better edition, he will also make mistakes. We also said that we do know what Srila Prabhupada used and approved for mass printing, for his classes and lectures, and for mass re-translations. We do not know of any other edition that meets that criteria.

And we said even if Purujit produces a so-called better version, we cannot use it in any event, it has no license. So its not usable. Why should we fight over something that cannot be used wide scale by us in any case? It cannot be used, so it does not matter if it is better car than the car we have now, we cannot drive your car, it has no license. No we are not silent, we asked you this from the get go.   

You could not answer, so you blocked us. Why else would you block us? Its simple, you have no reply this whole time. You said you wanted to drop this, then you wrote a whole big new thing attacking me as a silent person that you defeated. You have failed to address any of the points we raised from the get go. That also means you cannot even keep your word about dropping the issue. You are not honest people, that is plain as day here. You blocked me, then you defeated me? Please try to act like mature people here. ys pd]


  1. Yes I have seen where Purujit is now saying he is the authorized ritvik agent of Hansadutta. OK, wait a minute, Hansadutta has little to no credibility in the devotee community. Why would anyone want to be advertised as Hansadutta's empowered and authorized co-opted agent? As one devotee says recently, every time the Purujit folks speak, they dig their hole deeper. I agree.

    Again, this shows the result of their not communicating. We could have told them they would look very foolish advertising themselves as the subordinated agents of Hansadutta, but they have had to learn the hard way.

    Oh well! Meanwhile, I see no evidence Hansadutta can give them a license to print their re-edition of the books, or even that Hansadutta has approved them re-editing the books? They are advertising as the authorized co-opted agents of Hansadutta, but apparently they do not listen to him either, where is he advertising their editing?

    There is no evidence Hansadutta is now advertising their edits on his sites that we know of? Are they not subordinated to the person they claim they are subordinated to? Yep, digging their hole deeper. To be advertising oneself as the subordinated agent of Hansadutta is not going to be accepted widely either. Most of the things they are doing are not going to be accepted widely, ever, and this is simply yet another example.

    And Purujit says the ritviks have their own disciples, nope, they do not. They are agents of the acharya, the disciples are his and not the ritviks. What happens when the ritviks bloop, as they do? The disciples remain as property of the acharya and not the ritviks, as we have said four thousand times already. OK, not consulting, again! Yep, they are speculating their way down the road, and running into the same pot holes others ran into, 35 years ago. They have not even learned from the mistakes other ritvik wanna-bes made already. You got it! ys pd

  2. a few words about Hansadutta:

  3. Yes its very silly to say we BLISS folks are operating under the authority of Hansadutta, when his credibility is about zero, or less than that among the greater devotee's community. The BLISS folks do not care what the other devotees think, and Makhanchora even told me that, "we don't care what others think." OK well there is your first problem, you folks have fallen into a ditch of claiming to be operating under the authority of Hansadutta, which is never going to be accepted widely. Hansadutta was kicked out of the temple here for some time, for stealing a drum that was supposed to be a present to a child. He still thinks that whatever is Krishna's property is his property. In the past he has also stolen a temple's 7 foot tall Krishna deities, that he moved to be living under a carport, and he said we can have these deities returned if we give him a million dollars. He has stolen Krishna, and he wants a millions dollars kidnapping fees? And so on and so forth! He is a crook. And this is the person we need to make as our BLISS authority? He kidnaps Krishna, and he is our new authority? This shows how the BLISS people do not even know very much about how to treat the Krishna deity because they even make Krishna's kidnapper their authority. In sum! They love the Krishna kidnappers and they are proud of it. And now they want to re-write the books? Purujit came all the way to Berkeley and he spends days hanging out with Hansadutta, and video taping his talks etc., but he has not even got two minutes to talk to us? So he wants to be associated with Hansadutta's agenda, and that is simply not going to be accepted here or almost anywhere else? No, we don't want changed books, we don't want to appoint Purujit as our new editor, we do not want to operate under the authority of deity thieves, and so on and so forth. And they never reply to any of these points? ys pd

  4. Anatha dasa: The 1972 Bhagavad-gita was also read by Srila Prabhupada, featured in his lectures, and has many readers and devotees. Srila Prabhupada also said that if one reads “Bhagavad-gita as it is”, he fully understands the science of Krsna consciousness. I have a very old Hungarian translation from the original. For me it’s perfectly perfect and if I just read that, it’s quite enough. Purujit would be better if he were looking at another job. I think they’re bored there. There is no such attention, popularity for their project. Purujit and his team say that they serve Prabhupada, but my opinion is that service can be overdone. I serve the guru so much that I’m too pushy, then it’s not good again. To overthrow the 1972 Bhagavad-gita, it is in itself nonsense.

    Who is this Makancora who teaches the old Prabhupadanugas? How do they take the courage to be such ultra reformers?

    [PADA: Yep. ys pd]

  5. Makhancora dasa says: When there is a need to blaspheme devotees, oh, you are immediately enthusiastic. But when there is need to use the brain and come up with solutions according to Prabhupada's instructions, then this is the only thing you can say. flapping corpse. You have no answers, right? you cant say anything. its beyond your capacity to comprehend. You feel like a lost child. I see. so, just be silent and don't make a bigger nonsense out of yourself. you are ridiculous.

    [PADA: Sorry Makhanchora prabhu, but Purujit says he is working under the authority of Hansadutta, who has made Purujit a ritvik under his authority. OK, but even recently Hansadutta has to be kicked out of the local temple here for stealing items from the temple, because he STILL thinks everything that belongs to Krishna also belongs to him. This is your authority, a crook?

    Hansadutta has been a thief and a crook for decades now, and he still is. He also removed marble 7 ft tall Radha and Krishna deities from the devotees, ok he kidnapped them, and he moved the deities to be living in a small dirty shed with him along with his dirty underwear piled on the floor, bottles of alcohol, and a room full of all sorts of karmi movie DVDs and karmi books etc.

    This is your authority?

    After that, Hansadutta parked these deities under a carport. And then he says, we can have these deities back when we pay him $1,000,000. Why is the BLISS society claiming they are operating under the authority of Hansadutta when all this deviation is going on left, right and center?

    Why are you folks supporting persons who are placing Krishna in a dirty shed along with dirty underwear and alcohol, and karmi books and DVD movies? And when Purujit comes here, he spends days associating with Hansadutta, and making videos with him, and he spends zero time with us? Why is that? What agenda are you guys still supporting here? Its looking more and more like you folks are still in the pockets of the good ole GBC boys club and not the resistance? When are you guys going to quit being part of this agenda? When are you going to embrace the Prabhupadanugas and not the trouble makers? Why are you supporting the Krishna kidnapper club? And yes, why do you never answer any of these points, are you a corpse (as you said we are)? It look more and more, you have no answer, you support the corrupt and that is why you attack us. ys pd


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