Sulochan VS GBC Folks "Who knew what and when"?

Problem? There is no problem! 

angel108b@yahoo.com

PADA: Thanks N Dasi for you question regarding child abuse: "Who knew what and when"? Well some of these cases are 40 years ongoing, so I would say lots of people knew, and knew all along.

Me and Sulochana were openly exposing the child molesting especially in 1985-6. Most devotees knew about that then, and in fact Sulochana was murdered for exposing the molesting. Sulochana used to call the GBC supporters (like Adikarta for example) the "boot lickers for the butt busters." Hundreds of people knew what he was saying, easily. 

He also said things like -- the GBC are teaching the ISKCON little children their ABCs, namely -- (A) A*s licking, (B) Butt f*cking and (C) C*ck sucking. And he said all kinds of things like that all the time -- and so on and so forth. Almost everyone knew Sulochana was murdered -- and just about everyone knew why, he was protesting their molesting regime. He said they are an ABC of children program, they could not defeat him, so they offed him. 

I am not sure how anyone can say they did not know about his murder, since everyone was discussing that murder all over ISKCON, and it was in all the mass media. So now we still have people like Adikarta defending the teaching the GBC  version of ABC to the children, at least that is what Sulochana would say now if they didn't have him murdered. 

There were also many photos and videos of Kirtanananda sitting on a big seat, covered with the hands of many little boys. And lots of people saw that, and in fact that photo was placed on the cover of "People Magazine." OK most devotees knew. And many devotees attended the 1980s Guru Reform meeting at New Vrndavana, where almost everyone saw that Kirtanananda was covered with the hands of many boys -- because CBS TV took a film of that and showed it to me in 1986. And CBS news lady said as soon as she saw Kirtanananda covered with little boys she knew "this is pedophile heaven." Therefore not only many devotees knew, many millions of CBS TV viewers knew, they saw the show.  

Bhavananda had the Gay-vinda's restaurant / and his boy's entourage and so on and so forth. Many people knew about these things. And in 1997 we had ISKCON sued for mass child abuse, and just about everyone knew about that. Meanwhile many devotees, leaders and even parents opposed me when I helped the molesting case, and that means they knew about the molesting, but they wanted to cover it up, self-evidently. And they still are covering it up because they never discuss this with me and add their testimony. 

Many parents also knew because after their kids were molested -- the kids told the parents, and basically none of them ever called the police. OK maybe one or two did, but not sufficient to change the regime. So I would have to say, thousands and thousands of people knew. Easily. 

And these thousands and thousands of people just sat on their thumbs and did nothing. And worse, many hundreds out of those thousands of by-standing onlookers to these crimes harassed and attacked me, called me names, and even the police and FBI said -- they want to kill you. So they were not just ignoring the problem, they were defending the problem. And many still are. They still worship pedophiles like Lokanath right now. 

Narayan Maharaja knew because he was in Texas with Tamal when we were in Texas having Tamal sued for $400,000,000. And NM was calling us poison etc, because he defended the regime. Later he was hugging Kirtanananda, after refusing to see me after he invited me to his ashram. He is another person who knew, because he was an active defender of the regime and he attacked us, thus he knew all about us protesting. 

And he opposed our efforts to clean it up, and he associated with all the big leaders of the regime. Sridhara Maharaja said "none should protest" as soon as we said the children are being victims. He also covered for them. And so on. 

And many of them still oppose me right now. So that is why I call them in essence, "the enforced cult ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophiles as messiahs project." If anyone could prove me wrong, why don't they? 

Sum it up, many knew, maybe most knew, maybe in some temples everyone knew, and self-evidently, they did not fix the issue, or they neglected the issue, or they opposed us because we addressed the issue, which means they defended the abuse regime. So it would be hard indeed for almost any people anywhere to argue they did not know. 

I would say many knew, most knew, and in some cases, everyone knew. I would think that is a fair assessment. At least now more people are discussing the issue. That is a good start. We will reform ISKCON from without. And yes, I believe that anyone who knew and did not act -- is some part responsible, even more responsible if they actively covered it up, and highly culpable if they defended the regime. 

And they will enjoy or suffer the results -- because none of them are above the laws of God. Neither am I, and that is why I follow God's law, oppose molesting, or be implicated in it, this life and the next. No one escapes God's laws, ever. That means, forever. And if they think they can, they are in illusion.

ys pd]

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Let's not listen to hush-hush rethorics, both from others as well as from our own mind. The truth is nectar - amrita. Speak the truth, even if your voice is shaking.

“A person who knows things as they are and still does not bear witness becomes involved in sinful activities.” – Caitanya-caritāmṛta 2.5.9.22h

RD: Please forgive me if I have ever offended you by unknowingly keeping company with people who back those abusers who evade apology and rectification. As the lesser informed people like myself are becoming more aware these days who out there are backing such abusers, I'm holding my breath and asking myself: How much was I also involved in such offenses, even unknowingly?

I am just imagening how painful it must be for abuse survivors to see members of their spiritual community keeping friendly company with abusers and their enablers. So far, as per my present knowledge, I was hardly involved in such company, and if, it was unknowingly. I feel sorry for the people I know who are more involved. I could be in their position too.

I feel compassion for the survivors who are faced with repeated offenses instead of support. I also feel sorry for those still involved in friendly association with abusers or with people backing abusers. It's a big test for them. And I feel sorry for those who are unable to understand that keeping friendly company with abusers who evade rectification or with their supporters is highly offensive and will not pass without karmic consequences.

I thank all those who have had the courage to speak up and take action and encourage everyone else to do the same. If there's a rotten tooth pull it out before it gets more ugly. The future generations will also want to know what we have done during this time. One thing is sure - you will never regret standing up for truth and justice!

SD: Well said, dear brother. Do you find these things weigh on you more now that you are a father? Investing so much care, prayer and hope in the benefit of the little Jiva I have been entrusted with makes me increasingly pained with how... comfortable ... so many are with those who have a well known, validated history of abuse, especially in a context of faithful trust and spiritual endeavor, and especially the unforgiven and the unrepentant.

Part of the problem is that we have very poor infrastructure for dealing with ambiguous or politically motivated cases. False accusations do happen, though they are very rare, and not having good processes for dealing with the element of doubt magnifies that possibility in many people's minds well beyond that rarity, functionally creating a huge amount of space and leeway for definite abusers, both unproven and well-documented. Combined with our community's specifically maximal horror of even accidentally slandering a devotee even in thought, it ...gives us problems.

EN: What you say is certainly correct. What I find very hard to deal with and accept as that abusers are repeatedly actively protected by the higher/est ranks of management. An organisation that does this, is actually criminal. The latest story of abuse has been going on for almost 1/2 a century. How can that be? This goes beyond the issues you are pointing out.

RD: I share your experience that becoming a parent makes one more caring. Your two points certainly are part of the equation. We are often given a completely wrong idea of vaisnava-aparadha, and this is then misused as a hush-hush rethoric. 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur clearly says that for vaisnava-aparadha to apply, the offence must be done (1) with envy and (2) to a pure vaisnava (a chanter of suddha-nama). So even if you rightfully criticise a pure devotee without envy, vaisnava-aparadha doesn't apply. Given the fact that there are very few devotees who chant suddha-nama and that most devotees in my experience critisize with love and not envy, vaisnava-aparadha is a rare occurence.

MG: We all got cheated prabhu. Simple.

TD: Just wondering where you got that idea. To cancel everyone implicated may not serve the end well. Staying open to communication is a better way to have an effect. I grudgingly have some respect for folks who i have had some really tough exchanges and they still haven't unfriended me and we go on for round two. That's free speech in action. The modern liberal idea of banning anyone who steps out of line is a retrograde in our public life.

RD: I specified that I am talking about those abusers who evade apology and rectification. I don't keep friendly company with them. I know one former abuser who repents and publicly apologised and I am in touch with him. Everyone deserves a second chance, but they need to deserve that also. Nothing comes for free, especially not for abusers.

I got the idea by empathically putting myself into the situation of an abuse survivor. It really felt very painful and offensive. Those who have lived through that have also given account of that sad experience

TD: I can see that. But you also said anyone who associates with abusers is also to be cancelled. That might even include disciples of gurus. That is a lot to lay on devotees. Better to have dialogue with those people. That is still an effective way to get your points across. Otherwise we are all in our small echo chambers and believe me that happens all by itself.

RD: I said friendly association (especially in public) with those who *enable* abusers is offensive to the victims. Dialogue yes, but not association that communicates support.

TD: These people you refer to, is everything about them the abuser for you? They have no existence other than that? They you aren't their friend anyways. Friends will help rectify friends. That's what dialogue is. And you can have that in public if you like.

I know people who hold terrible views on covid, free speech and war. I challenge them on those very important issues. I don't cancel too many. Racism is one i don't tolerate, but i still might not cancel. Better to fight!

RD: Exactly like you say, you have to draw the line somewhere. And it's not easy. Especially with people you love for most of what they do otherwise. Everyone needs to play their part in the healing, no matter how small. Together we can do this.

AB: Well said brother.

NB: Thanks.

MK: Why not hate the sin and not the sinner. Why do we have to pick who we can be friendly with based on political correctness? Every sadhu I've seen or heard of decided for themselves who they wanted to be kind to or friends with. From Lord Nityananda's mercy on Jagai and Madhai, to Srila Prabhupada's long-term friendship with the Mayavadi Dr Mishra and his compassion and kindness on so many of his fallen and debauched disciples, our line is full of examples of saints who were "politically incorrect" in their friendship. 

I for one am very shy about following mob rule. In my humble opinion, this would not be an issue if devotees showed zero tolerance for child abuse and as soon as it was spotted immediately called the police and let them deal with it. 

In general, Hare Krishna devotees are not qualified to deal with such issues. Better that the person who does the crime do the time in prison. If they have some saintly qualities let them preach to the criminals in jail. I think that would solve most of these issues. Socially in the society of devotees such abusers would have the permanent stigma, both in their own individual consciousness and socially of being a abuser who was punished by the penal system. 

If they can overcome that hurdle and show their genuine remorse, reform, and saintly qualities then they will be more easily accepted in the general society of devotees. There should be zero tolerance for crimes, but let's not try to institute mechanical rules for friendship and relationships. Hate the sin and not the sinner. 

NJ: This is such a quaint, theoretical perspective from someone on the sidelines. Your ignorance shows when you mention political correctness. Not liking someone because they epitomize hypocrisy and molest, beat, or rape children… that is not political correctness. It’s humanity before it’s been distorted and weakened by theory and “detachment”.

You wish it was as easy as letting the cops handle it because then you could be justified in being this morally and intellectually lazy… And since you acknowledge most devotees aren’t equipped to deal with such things, maybe you should rightfully include yourself in that category and stay quiet on matters you don’t understand. Novel concept for many preachers.

RD: I'm not establishing rules here. I'm just saying it's offensive to the victims. Regarding Srila Prabhupada, he never kept friendly association with evasive abusers. When he heard of the abuse of children in the Gurukula in France, he at once cancelled the ongoing meeting, ordered the school to be closed and the offenders to be severely punished.

When the justice system sleeps, others need to fill in that gap. In the case of most abuses, the justice system on all levels of society is not stepping in. The least thing we can do is to support the healing with public disapproval, and definitely not anything that comes across like approval.

Hate the sin not the sinner doesn't mean to rub shoulders with offenders who don't repent. It means to wish the best for the sinner, which is rectification.

NJ: I really do think this dismissive political correctness comment is telling. What it says is not only does he not agree with or care about holding child molesters, beaters, and rapists (lest we get too abstract with “abuse”) accountable, he sees it so conclusively philosophically unimportant, that his only framework for why someone would disagree is “political correctness”. He can’t even conceptualize for the sake of argument the genuine emotion and conviction people have about this issue, nor the logic that supports it.

And people wonder why the society is so fertile for child abuse when these are the attitudes of influential preachers.

MD: I also wonder why child abuse and rape in spiritual organizations such as ours and the Church don’t immediately get reported to the police? These are crimes punishable under the law leading to jail time, as you stated.

This latest fiasco should open our eyes to how incipient this disease of child abuse is. A sannyasi in the Holiest of places on earth is engaged in the most heinous of activities…. covered up for decades! How can this be? Were others complicit?

Some persons have this disease, even though they might wear saffron. Under proper circumstances, hidden from view, that disease will manifest.

Living and worshiping together, we must remain vigilant to protect our women and children. Perhaps we need a Temple class on a regular basis given by a professional that deals with rape and child abuse prevention? I think we will need even more then that. Prosecution and jail time must be there for the perpetrators.

SRD: There are many child abuse cases that cannot be handled by the police. Most developing countries the police force is often easily corruptible and not generally responsive to child abuse matters.

Did you get the impression that Lord Chaitanya would have considered fraternizing and chilling with Jagai and Madhai, before they begged for forgiveness from Lord Nityananda?

... Because he wasn't bothered with political correctness?

In reading this comment of yours I get the sense that you're attempting to excuse or justify your public friendships with people like Dhanurdhara and Bhurijan, who have perpetrated and enabled the abuse of so many Vaishnava children.

I get the sense that you're unwilling to even begin to consider how their victims are affected by seeing you and other senior devotees 'blissfully' unconcerned. World you fraternize and give hugs to a man that had caused grevious offence to your wife?