Kadamba Kanana Maharaj's reply...
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: "Paul Kok" <kkswami@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Bhaktividyapurna case
Dear SRD,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
I am grateful to you for your support when I got shot in 1995. Since then we went separate ways. You specialized in child abuse in the Gurukulas, something I have left to the GBC and the CPO and others like yourself.
When I responded to the BVPS situation some time ago, I had less information about what transpired then I have now. Currently I am more aware of the systematic, premeditated sexual abuse of minors BVPS has been involved in.
[PADA: Not sure how someone can be an ISKCON leader and not know about the
systematic abuse, the child abuse lawsuit and etc.]
Meanwhile here is my opinion about the situation … for what it’s worth. It is extremely sad that once again there has been abuse in our schools and especially that the principal was the perpetrator in a pre-meditated way over a prolonged period of time. Another dark episode.
I pray that all the victims get proper support and care and over time can heal from these traumatic events and continue in spiritual life. As far as BVPS Is concerned he will have to face the consequences of his actions, in this world and in the next.
It also sad that yet another spiritual leader has fallen down in an ugly way. It will once again rock the faith in Srila Prabhupada’s movement. I have seen many strong reactions from many people, understandably so.
[PADA: But gurus and acharyas are not falling down left, right and center. And it is very offensive to say gurus are "another fallen spiritual leader.]
As far as the ‘api cet sudaracaro’ verse, to debate whether it’s applicable or not in this situation, is not very important. The bottom line is, that in any case punishment is inevitable.
[PADA: Punishment needs to be immediate when it concerns children, because waiting causes them considerable trauma, if not taking their own lives. Many of the victims left ISKCON for life. Some have already taken their lives, so lets us wait -- for more and more lives to be gone from ISKCON, or to be gone from the planet.]
Whether deep down in the heart of BVPS, there is a devotee, who will now begin a process of repentance for his grievous mistakes, helped by punishment; or whether there has been a demon or a kali chela at work, as some have said in the Mayapur open forum, that is a matter relevant, to each of you individually, to BVPS himself, to judges and to Krsna.
[PADA: No, it is relevant to the victims. Are we saying he is a repenting and apologizing Vaishnava, at all, which victimizes the victims -- again. He should not be classified as a Vaishnava. The judgement should not be left to Krishna, he should have been judged as a danger to children -- ages ago.]
I hope this presents a more balanced and complete response to the situation. I would like to return to my own business, of dealing with terminal cancer and preparing to leave this world. Praying for the blessings of the vaisnavas.
Your servant,
Kadamba Kanana Swami
[PADA: Well yep, Jayadvaita says he has taken too much karma, and he appointed you to take it. So many devotees have fallen down, got sick and died from taking karma because NONE OF YOU ARE AS GOOD AS JESUS and so you have no authority to take sins from others. And Srila Prabhupada says if we do take karma we will have to suffer. And you are, because you violated the orders of the acharya. You and Jesus are not interchange-able entities.]
AD: That’s all he wishes to say or do before kicking the bucket? What about helping clean up the house he benefited from while it was still abusing children?
AK: To be honest, I felt that Kadamba Kanan Mhj original reference to api cet in the discourse was limited to an ontological position, how the jiva has an ultimate connection with Krishna that supersedes any connection with illusion, ignorance, sin or aparadha. This is how things look from Krishna's perspective.
Commonly it appears in certain oligarchical circles there is an attitude of "If they are good enough for Krishna, they are good enough for the institution. And if they are good enough for the institution, they are good enough for Krishna." I feel that when api cet is used to blur the distinction between the operational imperatives of Krishna and the institution, then it becomes a cause for concern. I feel it is on this point, there is an essential difference between how KKS and SRS used this verse.
These may seem like a belaboured tirade, but I think this specific point warrants pause for thought. A unique contribution of vaisnava theology is a radically different vision of the living entity's ultimate relationship with the world and God.
Frequently when I hear narratives represented in terms of "asuras and devas", I hear trickle down representations of doctrines of original sin and theologies of grace applied to populations of the eternally damned (admittedly stepping free from such representations would be easier if they weren't fumbled on the GBC level).
We forget the example of Vrtasura, and who Hiranyakasipu actually was. On the ground, both religious frameworks may warrant a similar workable outcome (lifetime restrictions on the perp, etc). Perhaps its inevitable that the pervasiveness of Christianity bears a substantial mark on how we think through such problems, but if vaisnavism is bringing with it something more than a fine tuning of the protestant world view, we will have to rely more on vaisnavism to do our heavy lifting.
[PADA: What is a restricted guru? But the GBC people never forgive those of us they ban, beat, sue and kill.]
KM: I think your points will perhaps be missed but I did agree on that same level. My view was it was a bit like showing up at a burning house and worrying about the property and the landlord and thinking about the insurance. While a few people were burning alive inside. Or like showing up at a funeral and telling the widow, well it's all karma... We too often get to the end rather than the beginning and context and order do matter. I do really appreciate your elaboration though.
AK: Yes, interesting to note how both had at least one foot in a private audience. It is unfortunate that the leaders don't really have forums for discussing these things .... it gives the impression of a lack of agency, which is the direct opposite of leadership. Personally I felt, however, that there was literally a world of difference between how the verses were used.
KM: Philosophically a world of difference, in effect I don't see the distinction. Both made the case that because of the verse any activity could not stain the abuser and remove their category as Vaishnava (and Saint in one case). The mechanism was different and the source different, but curious if you see a different intended outcome from the verse.
AK: I thought KKS clearly pointed out despite whatever may or may not be the internal state of affairs with BVP, the only remedial course were akin to the Britisher's lifelong exile of Napoleon to St. Helena Island. He described that as "nature running it's course". He even resisted push back on this from someone in the audience, who suggested that after some period of incarceration, a criminal can reenter society with a clean slate, having paid their dues.
Maharaj reiterated that it was the nature of the institution and the nature of bhakti that makes such a scenario of reintegration untenable in this lifetime for BVP. SRS (Sivarama swami), on the otherhand, suggested that it's somehow morally incumbent on the institution to financially facilitate BVP in his fallen state.
Both maharaja's cited 9.30, but it seems that SRS was playing on this blurred distinction between the institution and the spiritual world, whereas KKS was adamant that Krsna's project in redeeming a leader fallen from mercy is distinct from the job description of an institution. KKS suggests that the jurisprudence of Krishna is not the jurisprudence of ISKCON. SRS is, at best, unclear about that distinction. That is the world of difference between the use of 9.30 in both these cases, imho.
SRD: The Vaishnava siddhanta is clear and conclusive. There is no redemption and no mercy from Krsna for the offence of a Vaishnava aparada unless and until the perpetrator begs for the forgiveness of the aggrieved party!
BG 9.30 does not apply to Vaishnava aparada. Conflating the two suggests either dishonesty or a serious misunderstanding of the philosophy or both!
PADA: BG 9.30 also does not apply to gurus and acharyas, it is an offense to consider gurus are ordinary and fallen.]
KP: That's a fair differentiation. I do think SRD has a coallescing point.
SRD: Didn't you notice that KKS appeared to show more compassion for the perpetrator than for his victims? If you look at the historical abuse of 9.30 and the timing of KKS's intervention you may be able to recognize the problem...
Is it true that the eternal nature of the jiva is sat cit ananda? Absolutely! Is it helpful to highlight this point whilst there is a cultural and generational clash taking place in ISKCON where a number of senior devotees have weaponized bg 9.30 as part of campaign to exonerate BVP? Not so much!
Is it philosophically accurate to equate the abuse of a Vaishnava child (egregious Vaishnava aparada) with a fall mere down? I don't think so!
V Devi: I agree. It is said that people become deeply understanding, regretful, or realized when nearing death. I wish that KKS did something more towards supporting child protection in any way before he leaves his body.
AK: I missed your response and addressed quite a bit of this in my reply to KM, just above ... don't know if you feel a need to respond to that. I agree that there has been in the past, will be in the future and is being in the present moment, quite a bit of garbage being pushed through in the name of BG 9.30.
When things become political (or perhaps its more correct to say, "when things demand a political response"), it brings with it the necessity of group identity, staying on message, a strong "utility is the principle" ethic. "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Kind of like when you become a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail (BTW, I and many others are personally highly appreciative of your hammering).
As I say this, it may sound incomprehensible or even belittling, but that is not my intention. My point is that politics is a "game" within the arena. It is not the arena. At the end of the day, we all put down our balls and bats and jerseys and go home. A lot of BG 9.30 is directed at this post-game rendezvous .... that said, the misuse of BG 9.30, particularly in regards to victims, may be a talking point in its own right.
It's misuse, however, is not its salient talking point. It really depends on who is asking the question and in what context. In the name of mollifying their consumer base in a politically surcharged world, many corporations wax lyrical on the latest PC soundbite.... it doesn't solve anything political, but it sells a lot of sneakers. In other words, the demands of communication cast a broader net than the tools of politics can fix. The arena is bigger than the game.
Is KKS part of some big concerted effort to misapply 9.30 to protect abusers? I really don't know him well enough to answer that Q accurately, but based on that vid, it didn't appear so to me.
AK Yes, but there is a caveat, that when that is not possible, then by extreme contrition and immersion in the holy name, one can surmount aparadha. That was the case with Jagai and Madhai, whose offenses were so numerous that they were incapable of remembering who they offended, much less begging their forgiveness.
I just point to that as but an example that in the endgame of eternal things within infinite time, there is a redemption from aparadha. If it was otherwise, bhakti would be close to meaningless or our ignorance would have to be divine.
If you took the largest number you can think of, and multiplied that by lives of brahma in which a living entity takes repeated birth as a fungus on the backside of a deep sea lobster, that number would still be closer to zero than infinity. You could literally wake up in the spiritual world, and that entire "thing" you experienced in the material world would have less resonance than a retinal after image.
So when Krsna has infinite time to solve a problem, its ultimately just a tale of the hero's journey with a tremendous curve on the U shape. Of course, as mentioned in a previous post, we are not properly equipped to integrate with such grand scale designs as the orbits of aparadha, so our problem solving is better suited to more "where the rubber meets the road scenarios", no matter how chirpy and "glass half full" we might be about our imminent arrival in the spiritual world.
A Das: I wish Maharaj would stop using the term 'grievous mistakes', these were not 'mistakes', they were intentional, premeditated, repeated, egregious acts of child abuse carried out by BVP. There were no 'mistakes' - rather there were only willful and sinful acts.
RE: Crimes!
GV: That is so sick, BVP ENJOYED abusing boys, it was giving him a pleasure, it is not grievous mistakes, it is a lifestyle Maharaj.
JM: A couple of things that stood out from KK's response: KK: "You specialized in child abuse in the Gurukulas, something I have left to the GBC and the CPO and others like yourself." This statement in and of itself is disturbing, and completely disqualifies him from being in any sort of management position, what to speak of acting as guru. Why would he "leave it to the GBC"? He doesn't care about children? Or if they might be abused in ISKCON? These guys are a very dangerous breed and should be banned from being anywhere near children at all. NOT just the BVPs of this world.
KK: "When I responded to the BVPS situation some time ago, I had less information about what transpired then I have now."
Absolute bollocks. We've all been aware of BVP's situation for decades. KK has been specifically aware of the current situation for years as well.
KK: "I pray that all the victims get proper support and care and over time can heal from these traumatic events and continue in spiritual life."
And? What specific action will KK take now? Will he fund trauma counselling? Employ qualified child protection agencies? Do some child protection course HIMSELF, or for his followers, so he can play his own part? Leave a good legacy? Call for zero tolerance for child abuse in ISKCON, at minimum? Wear an armband (at least)?
Like, what's he GOING TO DO? It seems like he'll do....absolutely nothing!!
KK: "As far as BVPS Is concerned he will have to face the consequences of his actions, in this world and in the next."
And what will KK do, as someone who enabled the situation to go on for so long, as GBC member, sannyasi associate, senior leader? Will he also have to face the consequences for his own failings in this regard?
KK: "It also sad that yet another spiritual leader has fallen down in an ugly way."
What "spiritual leader"? Why do these guys keep calling these types, "spiritual leaders"? They are just trying to scam us. Word jugglery. BVP was a liar, thief, child abuser, cheater, etc., etc. The fact that KK allegedly didn't see that is another disqualification for him.
KK: "It will once again rock the faith in Srila Prabhupada’s movement."
That's people like KK's fault. Who is responsible? The GBC is also very much responsible.
KK: "As far as the ‘api cet sudaracaro’ verse, to debate whether it’s applicable or not in this situation, is not very important."
In other words, he thinks it IS applicable, and should be.
KK: "I hope this presents a more balanced and complete response to the situation."
No, it doesn't. It simply tries to absolve KK of his own inactions and helpful facilitation of the entire corrupt system that led to the mess in the first place. Turn a blind eye to your mates, and all that.
KK: "I would like to return to my own business, of dealing with terminal cancer and preparing to leave this world."
An attempt to play the sympathy card to get out of getting in any trouble, or being held in any way reponsible or accountable for his past letter, or for anything he has ever done to enable child abuse to run rampant through ISKCON schools whilst he has been sitting at the helm of the ship for the past 30-40 years or whatever.
You can see he never acknowledges any fault or responsibility of his own. Zero instrospection here. He should have been HIMSELF contrite and remorseful, what with his impending death. Beg forgiveness for any role he may have played willingly or unintentionally.
But no. Kali Yuga rolls on, and all that. All glories to Lord Caitanya.
SD: Wear an armband. Hah! I really appreciate your comments. I look forward to more in the future.
SC: Someone has written that for him ... his words in the class were his own feelings and he has not addressed all the points in your letter. This I take as a PR damage control ... in the hope that people forget what he said and focus on his cancer (which pure devotees will never suffer from but thats a different discussion).
SV: Agreed. And People’s faiths are never rocked if it is on target. If it is placed in falsity it will be rocked and they will be practising a mirage of spiritual life. It’s KKS damage control and white wash.
SC: 100%
SV: And save playing the cancer card. It’s designed to elicit sentimentality and emotion. To serve as a diversion.
SC: "Everyone forget he was defending and minimising BVPS's crimes and feel sorry for him as he has cancer." Fake swamis and pedo defenders are the cancer of ISKCON.
ND: c'est pathétique !
PA: Maharaj's response is better than nothing. He did not know all the facts. One lesson here, we need to make informed opinion, with facts and figures. HE finally did despite his health conditions.
His use of the word " mistake" is probably for want of a word. Definitely " mistake" is unintentional. To err is human . One didn't set out to err but it happened. That's what mistake is. Accidental...
Premeditation, in my personal opinion, is evil. I have no sympathy for Premeditators.
SC: Would have been better to be silent. He knew the facts, don't kid yourself and KKS has known for a long time. Can you imagine the response if he did not know?? Would not a pure devotee be crying for those poor souls who suffered??
GF: Yes it was in the open for years, it was just IGNORED for over 30 years by KKS and everyone else. How many more years we are all need to react to a children abuse? Or even notice it? SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING.
MB: KKS was the temple president in Vrindavan. The gurukula was in the same complex.
KM: I appreciate the answer. I'm glad he read S's letter and responded without trying to justify further. Steps in a positive direction are always ones I'll support without reservation.
BH: Srila Prabhupada's movement is rocking us all ...faith is only in Srila Prabhupada...
VH: He gave a nice answer, and I wish him the best.
SK Devi: The whole GBC and everyone involved in this should give an apology to anyone who has been abused within ISKCON to date. That would help to start the healing process.
K.D. Another "thoughts and wishes" letter from an ISKCON leader...
SC: He let too much slip in that class first time round. This is all damage control.
JS: For the great work you have done so far, please also make sure that monetary support provided by other GBC's in the past to BVP or even in the present is actually wrong... aiding and betting him is as wrong as turning a blind eye.. Please make sure that any money transferred by GBC's from their personal accounts or their disciples to support BVP is gross violation!
As we say Follow the $$$ trail and if the GBC is truly interested to stop this problem forever, they or any past GBC's who have given him $$$ or will now thru direct or indirect means thru their disciples etc... should also be strongly put out as a statement! In the normal world, aiding an offender by providing him monetary or any kind of aid thru shell companies etc.. etc...also is considered an equal partner in the crime... Please pursue this avenue for this case so that in future no one is ever inclined to even misuse the verse 9.30...
YD: To dedicate the end of his life for this purpose would maybe cure his cancer and if not for sure it will please Krishna, which is even better ..
RR: So this replay is really a pity. The words that make me angry are. " I did not know, perpretated mistakes, another leader fall down, make Srila Prabhupada movement look bad, he will suffer his karma. Does he know that he and all the leaders are involved in his karma at 100%?
MM Dasi: KKS is very "compassionate" towards his friends and very ruthless towards his opponents whom he wants to destroy. In the year 2003 KKS had a position of power in the New Vrajamandala farm in Spain. In Spain there was a highly respected devotee who disagreed with KKS about a certain decision that could cause irreversible damage to this project. KKS could not carry out this decision due to legal impediments promoted by this devotee.
KKS sanctioned this devotee and his whole family, a big family of 9 children, that they could not visit the farm even to see the deities for several years. KKS did not care about the devotional damage of the unjustified sanction to the 11 members of this family. His only interest was to eliminate any opposition to his absolute power.
KKS acted despotically and told the community of devotees of the farm that this was an example to be taken into account by all. When a person disagrees with an absolute authority then one can really know the authentic personality of that so-called spiritual leader. A lot of compassion for friends and desire to destroy those who disagree even if they do it in a polite and correct way. This is KKS and so are most ISKCON leaders.
They are extremely hypocritical and consciously manipulate all those who feel admiration for them. It is easy to be "compassionate" with friends or with those who worship him.
MD Dasi: KKS destroyed the faith and lives of these eleven people just as KKS's goal was. He was never sorry for his unjust revenge.
MM Dasi: This is the quality of this type of false leaders who are in the lowest modes of material nature but who are very adept at manipulating others and creating a false image of being a saintly person. Certainly all of them without exception are masters of hypocrisy. This is a fact.
RG: If you see past all the fuzzywuzzies such as "oh show compassion to the pedos" or "give the guy a pension for his years of service" or "Abuse Aside, he was an excellent man" you cannot unsee the fact that the only reason psychos and lunatics are running amok is they are well sheltered by their cronies. The enablers.
MM: Outrageous how he plays the cancer card !
YD: He admits that bvp’s going down to hell in the next life or I’m dreaming?
ND: And BVP supporters like him too!
SD Dasi: Very disappointing.
NDasi: The word is -- weak!
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