[PADA: A few interesting points. Some "senior Prabhupada men" -- sometimes middle aged -- were "hitting on" much younger female devotees. In some cases these men were already married, or they had been married previously and divorced. Meanwhile, some of these "seniors" were promoting polygamy, knowing that Srila Prabhupada had said it is illegal -- and we cannot allow it.
And there has been a pattern of younger females being married off to older men in places like New Vrndavana. In other words, various "senior devotees" have been using their positions as "respected senior Prabhupada disciples" to exploit the ladies, often younger than themselves. And these senior devotees generally had to "go along to get along" with the GBC's guru process after 1978 in order to have this "female acquiring" (exploiting) situation.
And a number of the other "senior Prabhupada devotees" knew this odious exploiting situation was going on -- in and around ISKCON -- and they did not ring the alarm, protest, or try to check this exploiting process. For example, one guru was "dating" a young female, and really, nothing substantial was done to correct this.
So all of this is part of the whole overall situation of "senior Prabhupada devotees" using their positions to exploit others, either as gurus, or as a means of picking up younger women for affairs, marriages and -- increased sex life in general. And this lack of -- containing -- the exploiting was being spread to exploiting the children. In other words -- a loose goose if not exploiting atmosphere was being generated -- and it was spreading / filtering into many other areas of the society, including to the children.
I have heard many other reports of younger women getting pressured into having relations with some "senior devotees, so it does look like this was known to be going on by a large group of folks. And as we see below, nothing much was ever done to correct this process. OK so a lot of the senior devotees are responsible for either commission or omission of generating this problem. In the end, Srila Prabhupada said polygamy is illegal and we cannot do it. ys pd]
This man was also one of the main proponents of polygamy in ISKCON. I was kind to his children, and I guess he took that as a sign I wanted to be his second wife, and wrote me a 10-page letter saying that I should marry him. He commented on how I got along with his children so nicely. Did I mention I was engaged at the time? He also told me that my fiance was not good enough for me as he was not initiated. (By his logic, I was not good enough either as I was not initiated.)
At the time, I showed this letter to my dad who was living in the community. My dad told me recently he had strong words with this man, and I believe he still has the letter.
KE: I’m completely 100% in support of polygamy for those who choose it. but this is a perfect example of how toxic so many men who make that choice truly are.
SD: I am only as supportive as I am of polyandry.
KE: I’m equally supportive of both. I don’t care what other people choose to do with their private life, so long as it’s truly a choice and they’re not causing harm. Because some women make that choice for themselves, for various reasons and I’m not going to police other peoples personal lives? They’re no more hurting the world than anyone else having kids. but polygamy doesn’t require children anyway.
Modern polygamy looks quite different to what you’re talking about, which we traditionally see in fundamentalist mormon families.
S Dasi: It’s illegal in the United States.
KD: Not in Utah.
SD: Sorry, it's *illegal* in Utah. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Actually, I think Utah prosecuted more than it's neighboring states which is why it's more common in those ones.
KD: That was a joke.
KE: There are plenty of polygamists who are not affiliated with mormonism or any other religion. I said i’m in support of it, not that i have any desire to practice it. i think many marriage laws are stupid and based on Christian morals.
SD: I am only as supportive as I am of polyandry.
KE: I’m equally supportive of both. I don’t care what other people choose to do with their private life, so long as it’s truly a choice and they’re not causing harm. Because some women make that choice for themselves, for various reasons and I’m not going to police other peoples personal lives? They’re no more hurting the world than anyone else having kids. but polygamy doesn’t require children anyway.
Modern polygamy looks quite different to what you’re talking about, which we traditionally see in fundamentalist mormon families.
S Dasi: It’s illegal in the United States.
KD: Not in Utah.
SD: Sorry, it's *illegal* in Utah. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Actually, I think Utah prosecuted more than it's neighboring states which is why it's more common in those ones.
KD: That was a joke.
KE: There are plenty of polygamists who are not affiliated with mormonism or any other religion. I said i’m in support of it, not that i have any desire to practice it. i think many marriage laws are stupid and based on Christian morals.
ME: Since May, 2020 Utah no longer considers it a felony, only an infraction, which is apparently about the same as a traffic ticket.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/us/utah-bigamy-law.html
Utah Lowers Penalty for Polygamy, No Longer a Felony (Published 2020)
NYTIMES.COM
S Dasi: So, does one keep getting infractions until one gets divorced from the polygamous marriage?
ME: I have no idea, but my guess is that enforcement is not a priority unless someone reports it. The state still prohibits someone from having two valid marriage licences at the same time. Also, it's still a felony if there's any force or coercion. (according to the article)
KE: Age of consent laws exist outside of marriage laws, these are also two different things. There are crap parents everywhere, every religion, every country, every lifestyle. i don’t even know why i’m saying this though. it’s incredibly obvious.
SS: Such egos some of these men have. Trade in the old wife and get a nice young one. Just like the melecchas and no one says anything. DISGUSTING.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/us/utah-bigamy-law.html
Utah Lowers Penalty for Polygamy, No Longer a Felony (Published 2020)
NYTIMES.COM
S Dasi: So, does one keep getting infractions until one gets divorced from the polygamous marriage?
ME: I have no idea, but my guess is that enforcement is not a priority unless someone reports it. The state still prohibits someone from having two valid marriage licences at the same time. Also, it's still a felony if there's any force or coercion. (according to the article)
KE: Age of consent laws exist outside of marriage laws, these are also two different things. There are crap parents everywhere, every religion, every country, every lifestyle. i don’t even know why i’m saying this though. it’s incredibly obvious.
SS: Such egos some of these men have. Trade in the old wife and get a nice young one. Just like the melecchas and no one says anything. DISGUSTING.
VD: I know that person!
S Dasi: Yep.
B Dasa: The second wife has to be approved by the first wife, silly. Leave out all the rules in the Varna Ashrama system.
S Dasi: The first wife did not seem into it. I don’t blame her.
B Dasa: Makes sense. The purpose of multiple wives is to protect the woman and to propogate saintly children and a saintly family life. In the modern age most can't even maintain one wife properly. Stick with one, and if the guru instructs it and all the rules are followed you can take another. But the many wives are not for gratifying the male ego.
I'm not a part of ISKCON so I agree a lot of gurus are fake there, clearly from the Shastra the women are protected and seen as a form of God. All that other stuff is your own projection, the woman is to be protected at all costs, she has the right to a God seeking life if she is sincere about that path. I raised the most beautiful angel of a girl who loved God with all her heart, from experience these kids are going to be the saving grace of our earth. I think you take me the wrong way in my sentiments. Krishna is very clear in Uddhava Gita how to protect woman and children.
ISKCON may be far from the Shastric conclusion but it's still a pure and real thing. My guru is from the Rudra Sampradaya and is the most pure soul I've ever encountered. I can't speak on any others. Please be careful of strawmaning on a topic such as Shastra and its conclusions on life, it may give people the wrong idea.
MM: Sorry not sorry but so disgusting.
S Dasi: I felt pretty uncomfortable living in the same house with them after that.
MM: OMG, that’s just on another level of audacity! Sorry you have to go through that.
BW Dasa: Ah the old Iskcon pickup line #12. “Prabhu, I’m initiated care to become my second wife?”
BB Dasi: "I am a Prabhupada disciple care to ...."
MM Dasi: When I was a teenager in vrndavana the Prabhupada disciple thing was a real thing. They were all in their 50s and we were all 18 or 19. One of my friends once pretended that she only spoke Russian to stop a "Prabhupada disciple" hitting on her. (She is Canadian and we blew her cover by coming up and speaking English to her in the middle of it).
S Dasi: He *was* a Prabhupada disciple.
BB Dasi: How'd I guess?
VK Devi Dasi: Living in the brahmacarini ashram was like being on display in a shop window ….. dysfunctional males both married and not take it as an opportunity to do their twisted relationships shopping on you ….. defs can relate to this post.
S Dasi: He *was* a Prabhupada disciple.
BB Dasi: How'd I guess?
VK Devi Dasi: Living in the brahmacarini ashram was like being on display in a shop window ….. dysfunctional males both married and not take it as an opportunity to do their twisted relationships shopping on you ….. defs can relate to this post.
S Dasi: Sounds like you’ve thought about this topic for a while.
B Dasa: The Bhagavad Gita is not a metaphor. The accounts from Shastra actually happened as they are described. Please stop talking about the Vedic teachings in this way. Yes there are many pretenders in the spiritual school as a result of this fallen age, that is not the fault of Shastra.
ASD: Jai Prabhupada !!! Hmmmm .........
AL Dasi: I have read that there is a correlation between communities that support polygamy and child abuse. There was another article that talks about the increase risk factors in polygamous marriages. Still looking for the first article, but here is the second.
https://link.springer.com/.../10.1023/A:1020925123016.pdf
It seems to also point to the idea that the cultural reasoning for polygamy is important. I just don’t believe that our culture (and the intentions of the those in it) support a model of polygamy that is healthy for women and children. The purpose has to extend outside of personal desire and sense gratification for it not to take a toll on the children caught in it.
I’m glad your dad shared his mind with the guy.
AC Dasi: Very interesting point. i was a child bride in a polygamous so called marriage. Today we'd call it human trafficking. Wild times! lol!
AL Dasi: I’m sorry you experienced that. You should not have had to.
S Dasi: Terrible!
AC Dasi: Sorry guys, i wasn't trying to make anyone sad, it just suddenly struck me how accurate that was.
It seems to also point to the idea that the cultural reasoning for polygamy is important. I just don’t believe that our culture (and the intentions of the those in it) support a model of polygamy that is healthy for women and children. The purpose has to extend outside of personal desire and sense gratification for it not to take a toll on the children caught in it.
I’m glad your dad shared his mind with the guy.
AC Dasi: Very interesting point. i was a child bride in a polygamous so called marriage. Today we'd call it human trafficking. Wild times! lol!
AL Dasi: I’m sorry you experienced that. You should not have had to.
S Dasi: Terrible!
AC Dasi: Sorry guys, i wasn't trying to make anyone sad, it just suddenly struck me how accurate that was.
AJ Dasi: Oh yes I remember this.
S Dasi: You’ve had some unusual proposals yourself.
AJ Dasi: Yep!
AC Dasi: What is it with these old "Prabhupada" guys that think teenagers will be interested in them?
TB Dasa: The polygamous people in ISKCON just want to have more sex with more women from what I've noticed. None of them are Kshatriyas or Brahmanas truly.
AS Dasa: LOL !!!
AC Dasi: What is it with these old "Prabhupada" guys that think teenagers will be interested in them?
TB Dasa: The polygamous people in ISKCON just want to have more sex with more women from what I've noticed. None of them are Kshatriyas or Brahmanas truly.
AS Dasa: LOL !!!
B Dasa: Agreed, most are not. The sincere ones usually leave.
MM: So gross. They think far too much of themselves... Why would a 17 year old want to hook up with a middle aged man with a wife and kids? Clearly lacking in capacity for critical thought
S Dasi: And I was engaged to another man! He wanted me to break off my engagement so he could "protect" me.
MM: Narcissist.
AC Dasi: And he couldn't even take good care of the wife he already had!
PADA: Yep, when we helped with the Windle Turley lawsuit several young ladies later on wrote to me -- thanks a lot! This lawsuit forced my parents to leave ISKCON. And that saved me from being a victim of my parents plans -- of arranging to get me married to a much older man. Some of these old men were already previously married and divorced. One of these ladies told me -- she was going to commit suicide if that process had gone forward. ISKCON as an overall society has had a pretty free wheeling attitude on a lot of these issues. Of course, a number of those of us who were only married once, got booted out ... ys pd
DS Dasa: I've always observed older lusty "devotee" men giving way too much attention to younger ladies, both temple matajis and even college students visiting the temple. The men's infatuation is sickeningly visible on plain sight, yet no temple authority notices or intervenes with the blatant sniffing.
BB Dasi: Just to clarify, in general I don't ethically have a problem with polyamory. But for cloistered youth in a New Religious movement, I think the risk is way too high for it to be unhealthy and exploitive. Especially in a sex negative environment.
B Das: Well put.
AL Dasi: This is not polyamory. Polyamory is when all the people involved have the freedom to engage in a relationship outside of their primary relationship. Do you really think that this dude's wife was allowed to seek attention and sensuality elsewhere? I mean...come on!
PD: Disgusting to say the least at all levels...
KD: Lust in action!
DK Das: Some people even sanyasis get stuck in ahamgra upasana instead of Krishna service. They thing all should serve them because they are pure devotees. It's how they get cheated maya.
K Dasi: Remember also that devotee from Indiana whose name I can't remember was so chasing you for a wife and you were just a kid. He was telling everyone he was going to marry you. Creepy!
==============================
MM: So gross. They think far too much of themselves... Why would a 17 year old want to hook up with a middle aged man with a wife and kids? Clearly lacking in capacity for critical thought
S Dasi: And I was engaged to another man! He wanted me to break off my engagement so he could "protect" me.
MM: Narcissist.
AC Dasi: And he couldn't even take good care of the wife he already had!
PADA: Yep, when we helped with the Windle Turley lawsuit several young ladies later on wrote to me -- thanks a lot! This lawsuit forced my parents to leave ISKCON. And that saved me from being a victim of my parents plans -- of arranging to get me married to a much older man. Some of these old men were already previously married and divorced. One of these ladies told me -- she was going to commit suicide if that process had gone forward. ISKCON as an overall society has had a pretty free wheeling attitude on a lot of these issues. Of course, a number of those of us who were only married once, got booted out ... ys pd
DS Dasa: I've always observed older lusty "devotee" men giving way too much attention to younger ladies, both temple matajis and even college students visiting the temple. The men's infatuation is sickeningly visible on plain sight, yet no temple authority notices or intervenes with the blatant sniffing.
BB Dasi: Just to clarify, in general I don't ethically have a problem with polyamory. But for cloistered youth in a New Religious movement, I think the risk is way too high for it to be unhealthy and exploitive. Especially in a sex negative environment.
B Das: Well put.
AL Dasi: This is not polyamory. Polyamory is when all the people involved have the freedom to engage in a relationship outside of their primary relationship. Do you really think that this dude's wife was allowed to seek attention and sensuality elsewhere? I mean...come on!
PD: Disgusting to say the least at all levels...
KD: Lust in action!
DK Das: Some people even sanyasis get stuck in ahamgra upasana instead of Krishna service. They thing all should serve them because they are pure devotees. It's how they get cheated maya.
K Dasi: Remember also that devotee from Indiana whose name I can't remember was so chasing you for a wife and you were just a kid. He was telling everyone he was going to marry you. Creepy!
==============================
PRABHUPĀDA: “This incident with the president of our Washington temple is not good. He can’t even maintain one wife. Just see how lusty he is. Now he’ll dare to take another. Anyway he cannot live in the temple. If he wants two wives it must be done outside. He should maintain his family by working and give 50% to the temple. He may not live off temple funds. Temple president is generally meant for sannyasi, but a grhastha may be if he is restrained. It is not good if he remains as president.”
ReplyDelete>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Rupanuga — Vrindaban 8 November, 1976
JD: The only polygamy situations that I have ever heard of inside the movement were either in order to justify lusty desires that somehow could not be satisfied with one wife, or to extend the scope of the husband's male ego... Why would a sincere, goal-minded devotee need a second wife when one is already too entangling at times? Aren't we supposed to be putting Krsna in the center? How can we engage in these further complications and expect to make spiritual advancement? I can't believe the hype...
ReplyDeleteC Dasi: Yes I noticed As soon as I came to temple ... the frustrated Brahmacaris or some Lusty Married Men .. I have Close devotee friend In Australia who had Several married men try to Squire her attention & A Temple President Also .. As she was very young & attractive as Most of us were.. Yet the Women were told to cover there Heads while these men walked around in Gumshers ..that they bathe in .. I felt like many of men were looking straight through you like Exray- Vision... And women were called 7 times more Lusty ... Hmm very hypocritical...
K Dasi: Men!
SD: some men.
P Dasa: All of this fanaticism, all of this nonsense.
PT Dasa: When, in 1973, I decided that I wanted to marry my wife, I had to compete with a married TP because of all of this crazy polygamy nonsense! His lust, if anything, probably drove her to marry me just to escape from the possibility of being a co-wife in 1973's crazy state that ISKCON was in.