Hanuman das Croatia: Making Corrupt Guru Regimes Great Again?
----- Forwarded message -----
From: Mahatma das
To: Hanuman das
Sent: Monday, 27 August 2018, 19:23:14 GMT+1
Subject: Re: 108 List
Hare Krishna prabhu. Thanks for taking the time. I got the quotes I sent you, as they are from another devotee. I did not edit them. Some edit was made to show important parts and make mistakes on dates too. I which I was more PC savvy, but older PC illiterate here. We all have challenges. Thanks for the corrections. I assume they are right. Srila Prabhupada wanted this type of Istagosthi. It helps put things into perspective and gives opportunity for a future of more mutual respect.
From my view and those of others. it is obvious that we could agree on that Srila Prabhupada said 'it is said" Veda Vyas is living. We can agree he said, "I will never die. I will live for ever in my books and you will utilize." Said, "spiritual master is eternal." So if we read Srila Prabhupada's books, we are following the eternal Srila Prabhupada and his instructions as he said about those who read the Bible are following the eternal guru Jesus Christ and his instructions.
2. Krishna says the parampara is sometime lost, and He has to constantly re-appear to re-establish it -- age after age -- "Yuge Yuge." That means there are not always "living pure persons" continuing the system. Otherwise the system would never be lost?
There is of course scope for us neophyte people, those who are not liberated souls, to "pick up from the prominent acharyas" and follow them. Why is Hanuman implying that Krishna has no idea what He is talking about when He says, the system becomes lost, because there are at various time NO "living persons" to carry on the system?
Of course -- if Krishna says He has to come often and repeatedly to re-establish the parampara system, that means there are NO living persons available to properly represent that parampara occurring repeatedly and constantly throughout time. Hanuman says, this never happens? Why is he not reading the books?
Sorry! That means no, there are not always "living persons" present to represent the parampara. And that means the neophytes have to take shelter of the last link in the parampara during that gap. And that means we need to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada as the guru for the present time.
Hare Krishna prabhu. Thanks for taking the time. I got the quotes I sent you, as they are from another devotee. I did not edit them. Some edit was made to show important parts and make mistakes on dates too. I which I was more PC savvy, but older PC illiterate here. We all have challenges. Thanks for the corrections. I assume they are right. Srila Prabhupada wanted this type of Istagosthi. It helps put things into perspective and gives opportunity for a future of more mutual respect.
From my view and those of others. it is obvious that we could agree on that Srila Prabhupada said 'it is said" Veda Vyas is living. We can agree he said, "I will never die. I will live for ever in my books and you will utilize." Said, "spiritual master is eternal." So if we read Srila Prabhupada's books, we are following the eternal Srila Prabhupada and his instructions as he said about those who read the Bible are following the eternal guru Jesus Christ and his instructions.
What Srila Prabhupada is saying here, is that Jesus Christ is not dead, but lives in the Bible and gives instructions from the Bible. Of course, Srila Prabhupada is saying the same about himself, that he is not dead, he is living in his books and that whoever reads his books is accepting the eternal living guru Srila Prabhupada and his instructions.
Based on this and your stand, many will say that it is obvious that you don't understand or accept, or maybe you question if Srila Prabhupada in fact taught these things .At least it appears that this is what you believe.
Based on this and your stand, many will say that it is obvious that you don't understand or accept, or maybe you question if Srila Prabhupada in fact taught these things .At least it appears that this is what you believe.
My original idea was not to change your views, but to help you understand why ritvik Prabhupadanugas think as we do. Regarding Srila Prabhupada not giving an order for priests as practiced in the Christian religion as taught by Srila Prabhupada himself representing the eternal guru, who lives in and instructs from his writings as the Bible in the case of Jesus and Srila Prabhupada's books in the case of Srila Prabhupada, first of all, Srila Prabhupada did teach about priests or ritviks in the Vedic culture.
The Mahabharata teaches that Veda Vyas the author of the theistic system, is the Supreme ritvik. Various other Vedic literatures like the Bhagavatamas translated by Srila Prabhupada, do teach about ritvik (Ritualistic priest.)
Srila Prabhupada used ritviks for the initiation ceremonies of most of his disciples, who never met the original body of Srila Prabhupada. So we know of an order and practical use or application of ritviks before Srila Prabhupada left his body and we also have the signed July 9 1977 order on Initiations. where he states ritviks will conduct the ceremony and three times states that the devotees in the ceremony will be his initiated disciples. So you appear to not have known about ritvik or priest order from Srila Prabhupada.
I won't burden you any more, but I must add that the reason why we rirvik Prabhupadanugas believe that the ritvik order stands still for after Srila Prabhupada left his body, is because the original question on May 28 1977, about initiations was for "AFTER" you are no longer with us. Also, because his last will and testament states that only his initiated disciples can be executive directors of the ISKCON properties. Also,Srila Prabhupada teaches that the guru can not be selected by and eclectic vote as is done in ISKCON.
Srila Prabhupada used ritviks for the initiation ceremonies of most of his disciples, who never met the original body of Srila Prabhupada. So we know of an order and practical use or application of ritviks before Srila Prabhupada left his body and we also have the signed July 9 1977 order on Initiations. where he states ritviks will conduct the ceremony and three times states that the devotees in the ceremony will be his initiated disciples. So you appear to not have known about ritvik or priest order from Srila Prabhupada.
I won't burden you any more, but I must add that the reason why we rirvik Prabhupadanugas believe that the ritvik order stands still for after Srila Prabhupada left his body, is because the original question on May 28 1977, about initiations was for "AFTER" you are no longer with us. Also, because his last will and testament states that only his initiated disciples can be executive directors of the ISKCON properties. Also,Srila Prabhupada teaches that the guru can not be selected by and eclectic vote as is done in ISKCON.
Also, the original 11 are devotees who disobeyed Srila Prabhupada in various orders like the Direction of Management in 1970 and 1974, no more sannyas order after that, etc, and because of their dark characters. Three are suspects in poisoning Srila Prabhupada, at least other three are suspects in other murders, two in Sulocan prabhus and one in the murder of a devotee in Nepal. Practically all of them were court ordered to pay 26 million for child abuse. Practically all of them also, were ordered by a court, that Srila Prabhupada was not a ghost writer of his books as they claimed, but was the author of his books and the same court gave authority for Krishna books Inc, to print the original books, while ISKCON keeps changing Srila Prabhupada's books.
Again. This is only for you to learn why, there is a growing ritvik Prabhupadanuga culture. Thanks for the inter-action and reception.
Sincerely,
MD
========================
From Hanuman Das (Croatia)
Hare Krishna prabhu. The Prabhupada only paradigm or POP on Jesus and Christianity in part says, (I added two related quotes below).
TKG: Can a Christian in this age, without a spiritual master, but by reading the Bible and following Jesus words, preach the...
Again. This is only for you to learn why, there is a growing ritvik Prabhupadanuga culture. Thanks for the inter-action and reception.
Sincerely,
MD
========================
From Hanuman Das (Croatia)
Hare Krishna prabhu. The Prabhupada only paradigm or POP on Jesus and Christianity in part says, (I added two related quotes below).
TKG: Can a Christian in this age, without a spiritual master, but by reading the Bible and following Jesus words, preach the...
SP: When you read the Bible you follow the spiritual master. How can you say without? As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instructions of Jesus Christ. That means you are following the spiritual master. So where is the opportunity of being without spiritual master?
Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living spiritual master.
SP: Spiritual master is eternal... so your question is, without a spiritual master. Without a spiritual master, you can not be at any stage of your spiritual life. When you read the Bible, you are following spiritual master represented by some clergyman, in the line of Jesus Christ. (July 21 1975. Room conversation.)
So such thing was said on July 21 1975 Check your sources, this is conversation from October 2, 1968, Seattle. Also, when you put three dots ... you are actually removing important parts to suit your agenda, full quote:
Prabhupada: Spiritual master is not the question of... Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal. So your question is without spiritual master. Without spiritual master you cannot be, at any stage of your life. You may accept this spiritual master or that spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept.
Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living spiritual master.
SP: Spiritual master is eternal... so your question is, without a spiritual master. Without a spiritual master, you can not be at any stage of your spiritual life. When you read the Bible, you are following spiritual master represented by some clergyman, in the line of Jesus Christ. (July 21 1975. Room conversation.)
So such thing was said on July 21 1975 Check your sources, this is conversation from October 2, 1968, Seattle. Also, when you put three dots ... you are actually removing important parts to suit your agenda, full quote:
Prabhupada: Spiritual master is not the question of... Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal. So your question is without spiritual master. Without spiritual master you cannot be, at any stage of your life. You may accept this spiritual master or that spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept.
As you say that "by reading Bible," when you read Bible that means you are following the spiritual master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. So any case, you have to follow a spiritual master. There cannot be the question without spiritual master. Is that clear?
So, Jesus Christ is represented by some priest in line of Jesus Christ. but Prabhupada never instructed his disciples to follow this system from pseudo, meat-eating parampara.
Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?
SP: I will never die. I will live forever in my books and you will utilize. Berkeley California 1975
Regarding the parampara system. There is nothing to wonder for big gaps. We have to pick up from the prominent acarya and follow from him. (4/12/1968 Letter)
You are cheating again, removing part of the quote to fit your retarded agenda.
So, Jesus Christ is represented by some priest in line of Jesus Christ. but Prabhupada never instructed his disciples to follow this system from pseudo, meat-eating parampara.
Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?
SP: I will never die. I will live forever in my books and you will utilize. Berkeley California 1975
Regarding the parampara system. There is nothing to wonder for big gaps. We have to pick up from the prominent acarya and follow from him. (4/12/1968 Letter)
You are cheating again, removing part of the quote to fit your retarded agenda.
Real quote:
Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system—namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system.
Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system—namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system.
We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.
As you can see from the quote, big gap doesn't mean that spiritual master is dead. When Madhva took initiation from Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva was alive and well.
SP: Just like Krishna can be simultaneously in millions of places, similarly, the spiritual master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. The spiritual master is the principle, not the body. (May 28-1968. Letter)
Yes, spiritual master is the principle, because all spiritual masters are preaching the same message, Krishna's message.
But, if you open Bhagavad-gita, Srila Prabhupada said that Bhagavad-gita is received in disciplic succession, and he listed all the gurus from him to Krishna. All the gurus in that line accepted initiation from the living spiritual master, not following the rtvik concoction.
ys Hanuman das
As you can see from the quote, big gap doesn't mean that spiritual master is dead. When Madhva took initiation from Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva was alive and well.
SP: Just like Krishna can be simultaneously in millions of places, similarly, the spiritual master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. The spiritual master is the principle, not the body. (May 28-1968. Letter)
Yes, spiritual master is the principle, because all spiritual masters are preaching the same message, Krishna's message.
But, if you open Bhagavad-gita, Srila Prabhupada said that Bhagavad-gita is received in disciplic succession, and he listed all the gurus from him to Krishna. All the gurus in that line accepted initiation from the living spiritual master, not following the rtvik concoction.
ys Hanuman das
=================
[PADA: A few problems with Hanuman's ideas.
1. The list of 32 gurus covering 5,000 years would mean, there are time gaps. Apparently Hanuman cannot do the math? In Hanuman's guru parampara, they worship Bhakti Vikas Swami as their guru. Why does Hanuman have to point out all the defects of the GBC's guru parampara, while Bhakti Vikas Swami is compromised and voted into the GBC's guru parampara?
Why isn't Bhakti Vikas Swami leading the charge to fight the GBC's deviations, and where has he been all this time as all these deviations have been piling up? Right, he has been hanging out with the GBC's gurus and acting as their best pal / supporter / voted in co-member.
Why isn't Bhakti Vikas Swami leading the charge to fight the GBC's deviations, and where has he been all this time as all these deviations have been piling up? Right, he has been hanging out with the GBC's gurus and acting as their best pal / supporter / voted in co-member.
Me and my guru bhai pals
2. Krishna says the parampara is sometime lost, and He has to constantly re-appear to re-establish it -- age after age -- "Yuge Yuge." That means there are not always "living pure persons" continuing the system. Otherwise the system would never be lost?
There is of course scope for us neophyte people, those who are not liberated souls, to "pick up from the prominent acharyas" and follow them. Why is Hanuman implying that Krishna has no idea what He is talking about when He says, the system becomes lost, because there are at various time NO "living persons" to carry on the system?
Of course -- if Krishna says He has to come often and repeatedly to re-establish the parampara system, that means there are NO living persons available to properly represent that parampara occurring repeatedly and constantly throughout time. Hanuman says, this never happens? Why is he not reading the books?
Sorry! That means no, there are not always "living persons" present to represent the parampara. And that means the neophytes have to take shelter of the last link in the parampara during that gap. And that means we need to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada as the guru for the present time.
Yep! Krishna Himself says that the guru chain system is lost over time, and He has to come personally and fix that. Hanuman says that is wrong, it is never lost because there is always a living person. Who is right? And again, why has Hanuman never studied these points, or even asked any of us, or read in Srila Prabhupada's books about these points? And why has Bhakti Vikas Swami never instructed Hanuman on these issues?
3. Visvanath accepted Narottama, but they were not living on the planet at the same time. I am not sure why Hanuman is implying that the system of accepting a so-called departed guru is a deviation, that would mean Hanuman Croatia is saying the entire parampara principle is a deviation. Why is Hanuman saying the Vaishnava parampara is a deviation, because there are gaps? That is what the smartas say, there is always a living person, and the Vaishnavas are bogus for having gaps. Why is Hanuman always taking the side of the atheists and pasandis? And why is he saying the acharyas are bogus people, at all?
4. How does Hanuman apparently propose that people can take initiation from Srila Vyasadeva, because he is living (but not manifest to us) somewhere in the Himalayas? That is the plan, we have to go find him? This is not practical, nor was this ordered.
5. Hanuman says that "2/3 show of hands voted in" Bhakti Vikas swami is a diksha guru, because he only says what Srila Prabhupada says. However, Bhakti Vikas swami is "voted in" to the GBC's deviated guru parampara. When was this guru voting process established by Srila Prabhupada? And why doesn't Hanuman know this is bogus?
What if some / many of the "2/3 show of hands voters" who voted in BVKS as the next acharya were watching football, or even watching porno, and then they went over to vote in Bhakti Vikas swami as the next guru in the parampara? How does Hanuman even know if some -- or even one -- of the GBC's persons who voted in BVKS as a guru are authorized to vote for acharyas in the first place?
And again, when and where does Srila Prabhupada order this guru voting system? And why does Hanuman think a guru is a person who is subordinated to the votes, authority and restrictions of -- a committee? In short, how do we know that some -- or any -- of "the 2/3 show of hands guru voters" are even qualified to vote for "best bag of peanuts in the store" much less -- vote for acharyas?
Did we forget to mention many / most devotees no longer accept that the GBC's guru parampara system as bona fide, including one of its top most critics -- Hanuman das of Croatia. How can we simultaneously accept a bogus guru parampara, and reject it?
What if some / many of the "2/3 show of hands voters" who voted in BVKS as the next acharya were watching football, or even watching porno, and then they went over to vote in Bhakti Vikas swami as the next guru in the parampara? How does Hanuman even know if some -- or even one -- of the GBC's persons who voted in BVKS as a guru are authorized to vote for acharyas in the first place?
And again, when and where does Srila Prabhupada order this guru voting system? And why does Hanuman think a guru is a person who is subordinated to the votes, authority and restrictions of -- a committee? In short, how do we know that some -- or any -- of "the 2/3 show of hands guru voters" are even qualified to vote for "best bag of peanuts in the store" much less -- vote for acharyas?
Did we forget to mention many / most devotees no longer accept that the GBC's guru parampara system as bona fide, including one of its top most critics -- Hanuman das of Croatia. How can we simultaneously accept a bogus guru parampara, and reject it?
6. Bhakti Vikas Swami is the sannyasa disciple of Jayapataka swami, and some of his followers say he is suffering from taking their sins. Ooops! Srila Prabhupada says we neophytes cannot absorb sins. Why is BVKS encouraging neophytes to take sins, and suffer, go mad, get sick, fall down, and die?
Sorry! Neophytes are ordered to NOT take the post of diksha guru and absorb sins, or they will have to SUFFER. Why doesn't Hanuman das know any of these facts? And why does he not even see the results going on right before his eyes, these people are suffering from taking sins, and they were told NOT to do so.
Conditioned souls cannot absorb sins, and if they artificially attempt to do so, they have to suffer.
Sorry! Neophytes are ordered to NOT take the post of diksha guru and absorb sins, or they will have to SUFFER. Why doesn't Hanuman das know any of these facts? And why does he not even see the results going on right before his eyes, these people are suffering from taking sins, and they were told NOT to do so.
Did I forget to mention that in the BVKS guru parampara, those of us who point to the banning, beating, molesting and murders program -- are shunned, vilified, exiled, beaten and murdered and so on? Srila Prabhupada says we should not make ISKCON into another Gaudiya Matha or Catholic Church.
Why is Hanuman supporting the BVKS guru program, which has us folks shunned (if not beaten and murdered) for opposing corruption? Did I forget to mention that the Hanuman / BVKS program of having us exiled and repressed is how all this banning, beating, molesting, lawsuits and murders were enabled? And why does Hanuman never address any of this, neither does BVKS? ys pd
Why is Hanuman supporting the BVKS guru program, which has us folks shunned (if not beaten and murdered) for opposing corruption? Did I forget to mention that the Hanuman / BVKS program of having us exiled and repressed is how all this banning, beating, molesting, lawsuits and murders were enabled? And why does Hanuman never address any of this, neither does BVKS? ys pd
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