Sunday, April 30, 2017

Torben Nielsen Flip Flops on Guru Issue

[PADA: First of all, Torben, Ajit Krishna, Kim Moller and many others argued with PADA that "any initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada who chants their rounds can be a diksha guru." What? Anyone who chants their rounds is equal to Jesus and he can accept sins like Jesus? Where did Srila Prabhupada say that anyone who "chants their rounds" can take the post of a parampara acharya or messiah and absorb sins etc.? 

Torben was never able to show us quotes to that effect, because none exist! Torben was actually quoting Jayadvaita swami, who says "anyone who chants their rounds" can be a diksha guru. Probably same problem we have with Hanuman das, he thinks someone ELSE is going to be the diksha guru other than Srila Prabhupada. "Someone" who is chanting their rounds? 

Worse! This idea simply drags these ersatz messiahs down, they absorb sins and then they fall down, get sick, or die. That is the way forward, people should fall down, get sick and die? Toben has never explained why he wanted all of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada to become ersatz messiahs and fall down, get sick -- and die, by being imitation messiahs?  

And worse, Torben's program has had the entire ISKCON society offering their bhogha to Torben's conditioned soul gurus, so under the Torben plan, everyone is eating BHOGHA because we cannot offer bhogha to conditioned souls, whether they are chanting their rounds or not. Of course the GBC has made an executive order to have people monitor Jayapataka because, he was not chanting his rounds. How do we even know if Torben's messiahs are chanting their rounds? We don't! Rather we know in many cases, they are not!

Wow, so Torben, and not Krishna, has been the one "giving the order" that anyone of the disciples can be a diksha guru! Now he says, only the previous acharyas or Krishna can give this order. OK wait a minute, how did Torben previously take the place of Krishna, because he was ordering people to become diksha gurus, and he was by-passing God? 

Anyway, he is now right, and this is what PADA said all along, the previous acharyas and / or Krishna gives the order for people to become diksha gurus, not the GBC or Bhakta Torben! So Torben appears to have woke up to the fact, he is not Krishna, and so he cannot give anyone the order to become a diksha guru, never mind he was previously giving the order to thousands of people to become diksha gurus up to now! He finally realized, he is not Krishna?   

Anyway, we are glad he has started to do some research on this topic! Yes, the previous acharyas and / or Krishna are the persons who give the order for a person to be guru, NOT TORBEN or the GBC, or the Gaudiya Matha or etc. Good progress! This means, Torben agrees with the ritviks, all of these people were never diksha gurus because they did not have the order, and he was a complete fool to give thousands of people the order to become diksha gurus because he thought he was Krishna and he could give this order. He has finally realized, he is not Krishna! Goody! ys pd

Torben Nielsen — DENMARK —

"Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru-parampara.
Indian: Did it...
Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
Indian woman 2: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sadhi mam prapannam. "I am surrendered to You. Whatever You say, I shall carry out." That's all.
Indian man: When did he tell you to...?
Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?
Indian man: No, I am just curious when...
Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much." (Srila Prabhupada Bg Lecture - Nairobi, 1975)

So we can understand from this exchange that Srila Prabhupada is not referring to the general order from Mahaprabhu to become guru:

yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa
āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa

"Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land."
(Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 7.128)

Srila Prabhupada in the above conversation is talking about becoming initiating guru, diksa guru, because the order from Mahaprabhu is public knowledge. It is written in many places. That is the order of becoming a siksa guru. And Srila Prabhupada mentions it in innumerable places.

Srila Prabhupada says that his order from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was significant and confidential, 'Why I shall disclose to you?'

Therefore by logic, Srila Prabhupada must be referring to the order of him taking disciples personally. Otherwise he could easily have answered the question referring to the Mahaprabhu order. He did not.

This sheds light to the ongoing guru / Ritvik/ GBC controversy of who is a bona fide guru. The order must be there. Either the general order to become guru (siksa) or the specific order to take disciples (diksa).

This will raise a natural question, 'How can Srila Prabhupada order a disciple to become initiating guru after Srila Prabhupada has departed?' The answer is quite obvious and can best be illustrated by a personal experience I had five years back: "Torben!".

Hope this will clear some of the many misunderstandings which have marred ISKCON since His Divine Grace´s departure in 1977.

[PADA: Right the general order is for people to become shiksha gurus, and for Torben to say he (or the GBC?) can order people to be diksha gurus is bogus and wrong. So the only person who has this order is Srila Prabhupada, so he is still the current diksha guru. Great progress Torben! ys pd]

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