The pure devotee is called "Vishnupada,"
Because he is a pure representative of Lord Vishnu.
By Surya Narayana das - A Blunt Crayon Production.
“Even one has taken sannyasa, he should remain always humble.
That was the instruction of my Guru Maharaj, that bada vaisnava - 'I am very big Vaisnava, everyone should come and obey my orders-' this is condemned position."
(Srila Prabhupada: SB 7:9:3 - Feb 10, 1976 Mayapur, India).
In Part One, we witnessed a clash of opinions over the position and place of Srila Prabhupada and the voted-in-guru within Iskcon. We open Part Two by joining another SB class, I believe also in LA, as the fallout from the controversy kicked off by sannyasa Jayadvaita continues.
Vijaya Prabhu is giving class and will speak a little later, but we’re cued up to the Q & A section where a devotee called Manavata Prabhu (if I’m hearing it correctly) has been given the floor:
“Although Srila Prabhupada may not be one’s diksa guru, he is the siksa guru for the whole movement.”
From this opening sentence, we hear the entrenched group-think within Iskcon that has its genesis in the Zonal Acarya deviation. When the 11 men and their supporters deviated (the GBC name it as such in their official 1999 Resolutions, Apology to Pradyumna Prabhu), they had to alter Srila Prabhupada’s status to fit with their design as so-called legitimate conquerors.
From this opening sentence, we hear the entrenched group-think within Iskcon that has its genesis in the Zonal Acarya deviation. When the 11 men and their supporters deviated (the GBC name it as such in their official 1999 Resolutions, Apology to Pradyumna Prabhu), they had to alter Srila Prabhupada’s status to fit with their design as so-called legitimate conquerors.
Evidently, an important element to the success of this coup de grace was to relegate His Divine Grace to an inferior position in the minds of the followers, thus rendering him of limited spiritual worth, unable to truly deliver the follower to Lord Krishna. Enter the Zonal Acaryas, the new gatekeepers to the kingdom of God. And so, almost overnight, Srila Prabhupada ceased to be the diksha guru for his society. This serious deviation has never been rectified.
Tamal Krishna Goswami: … Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He did not appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks [officiating priests].*
I’m always a little surprised to hear otherwise intelligent devotees like Manavata almost robotically spitting out this highly questionable sound bite as an absolute, casually explaining away the Founder-Acarya as of less importance and spiritual stature than that of his disciples.
So why do they say Srila Prabhupada is no longer the diksha guru of Iskcon? It seems these devotees fully bought into what the Zonals told them to believe. Then the "Guru Reformers" sang the same song, reinforcing the message until apparently now it’s just accepted as truth set in stone despite being born of a lie. That same untruth was preached to us when we joined too. Repetition communication at its worst!
Tamal Krishna Goswami: Myself and the other GBCs have done the greatest disservice to this movement….. we interpreted the appointment of rittviks as the appointment of gurus….
Before the Zonals nefarious interference in our Parampara, His Divine Grace was the undisputed diksa guru for everyone. It’s there in the Gita, his name's on the list, and I’ve never read or heard anywhere Srila Prabhupada says that should cease to be. Neither can we find when or where HDG ever authorised even a single disciple to replace him as diksha guru of Iskcon.
“Caitanya Mahaprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become siksa-guru on my order, not by his own order.”
(Srila Prabhupada’s room conversation, May 30, 1976. Honolulu, Hawaii.)
So to act even as siksa-guru, Prabhupada appears to indicate, requires his order, what to speak of the role of diksa. Note: this instruction given in Hawaii was in 1976 after Srila Prabhupada had ten years experience with the mindset of his leading men.
Tamal Krishna Goswami: You cannot show me anything on tape or in writing where Prabhupada says, “I appoint these eleven as gurus .” It does not exist, because he never appointed any gurus. This is a myth."
If Srila Prabhupada understood the Vedic laws of succession in the way devotees insist he must, then wasn’t he obliged to have publicly named, authorised, and officiated his Acarya successor into existence? And wouldn’t that person's name have been added to the disciplic succession on the next Gita print run?
Interviewer: “Do you have a successor to take your place when you die?”
Prabhupada: “Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.”
(Interview with Newsweek - July 14th, 1976, New York).
It seems clear from his exacting management style that His Divine Grace would have had this incredibly vital piece of ‘new guru lineage’ legislation drawn up, officiated and entered firmly into Iskcon law, added to his Will, and a letter sent out ‘To all Temple Presidents’, informing his entire society of this monumental change about to take place - the ushering in of the next Acarya!
Tamal Krishna Goswami: … Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He did not appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks [officiating priests].*
I’m always a little surprised to hear otherwise intelligent devotees like Manavata almost robotically spitting out this highly questionable sound bite as an absolute, casually explaining away the Founder-Acarya as of less importance and spiritual stature than that of his disciples.
So why do they say Srila Prabhupada is no longer the diksha guru of Iskcon? It seems these devotees fully bought into what the Zonals told them to believe. Then the "Guru Reformers" sang the same song, reinforcing the message until apparently now it’s just accepted as truth set in stone despite being born of a lie. That same untruth was preached to us when we joined too. Repetition communication at its worst!
Tamal Krishna Goswami: Myself and the other GBCs have done the greatest disservice to this movement….. we interpreted the appointment of rittviks as the appointment of gurus….
Before the Zonals nefarious interference in our Parampara, His Divine Grace was the undisputed diksa guru for everyone. It’s there in the Gita, his name's on the list, and I’ve never read or heard anywhere Srila Prabhupada says that should cease to be. Neither can we find when or where HDG ever authorised even a single disciple to replace him as diksha guru of Iskcon.
“Caitanya Mahaprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become siksa-guru on my order, not by his own order.”
(Srila Prabhupada’s room conversation, May 30, 1976. Honolulu, Hawaii.)
So to act even as siksa-guru, Prabhupada appears to indicate, requires his order, what to speak of the role of diksa. Note: this instruction given in Hawaii was in 1976 after Srila Prabhupada had ten years experience with the mindset of his leading men.
Tamal Krishna Goswami: You cannot show me anything on tape or in writing where Prabhupada says, “I appoint these eleven as gurus .” It does not exist, because he never appointed any gurus. This is a myth."
If Srila Prabhupada understood the Vedic laws of succession in the way devotees insist he must, then wasn’t he obliged to have publicly named, authorised, and officiated his Acarya successor into existence? And wouldn’t that person's name have been added to the disciplic succession on the next Gita print run?
Interviewer: “Do you have a successor to take your place when you die?”
Prabhupada: “Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.”
(Interview with Newsweek - July 14th, 1976, New York).
It seems clear from his exacting management style that His Divine Grace would have had this incredibly vital piece of ‘new guru lineage’ legislation drawn up, officiated and entered firmly into Iskcon law, added to his Will, and a letter sent out ‘To all Temple Presidents’, informing his entire society of this monumental change about to take place - the ushering in of the next Acarya!
No small thing by any means, right? Srila Prabhupada was a pure devotee who loved his Iskcon. He didn’t make a mistake or space out and forget to do it. There was a reason he never ‘settled up’ and named a successor to ‘take his place’ when he died.
Tamal Krishna Goswami: "If it had been more than that [officiating priests], you can bet your bottom dollar that Prabhupada would have spoken for days and hours and weeks on end about how to set up this thing with the gurus…. We made a great mistake…."
Srila Prabhupada, as we know, had been questioned by his disciples in the final days on how things would continue after he’d gone. He replied and gave his order. No successor’s name was forthcoming, try as his disciples may. Srila Prabhupada made a conscious choice to remain silent, not naming a single man amongst them to replace him as the initiating spiritual master / Acarya of Iskcon.
“Simply going and asking the spiritual master or guru, and not to accept his instruction, then don’t waste your time. Don’t waste your time.”
(Srila Prabhupada - SB class Bombay Nov 4th, 1974).
Like it or not, them’s the facts, and if some old TP out of Chicago or wherever who went along with the deviation and helped enforce the Zonal overthrow now tells us how ‘all the TPs understood’ that Prabhupada meant diksa when he said ritvik, well we treat such hearsay testimony as dubious at best, especially put side by side with documented evidence from those directly involved:
Tamal Krishna Goswami: “All right, I will appoint so many,” and he named them. He made it very clear that they [new members] were still to be his disciples.
Devotees make these bold statements that it’s the law of disciplic succession and Prabhupada should have chosen a successor, although they provide no evidence that Prabhupada himself ever agreed that “he must.” And although the “Anti-Jai Prabhupada” set will readily focus their anger on those followers who accept Prabhupada’s choices, we suggest their real gripe is with Bhaktivedanta Swami himself!
Tamal Krishna Goswami: "If it had been more than that [officiating priests], you can bet your bottom dollar that Prabhupada would have spoken for days and hours and weeks on end about how to set up this thing with the gurus…. We made a great mistake…."
Srila Prabhupada, as we know, had been questioned by his disciples in the final days on how things would continue after he’d gone. He replied and gave his order. No successor’s name was forthcoming, try as his disciples may. Srila Prabhupada made a conscious choice to remain silent, not naming a single man amongst them to replace him as the initiating spiritual master / Acarya of Iskcon.
“Simply going and asking the spiritual master or guru, and not to accept his instruction, then don’t waste your time. Don’t waste your time.”
(Srila Prabhupada - SB class Bombay Nov 4th, 1974).
Like it or not, them’s the facts, and if some old TP out of Chicago or wherever who went along with the deviation and helped enforce the Zonal overthrow now tells us how ‘all the TPs understood’ that Prabhupada meant diksa when he said ritvik, well we treat such hearsay testimony as dubious at best, especially put side by side with documented evidence from those directly involved:
Tamal Krishna Goswami: “All right, I will appoint so many,” and he named them. He made it very clear that they [new members] were still to be his disciples.
Devotees make these bold statements that it’s the law of disciplic succession and Prabhupada should have chosen a successor, although they provide no evidence that Prabhupada himself ever agreed that “he must.” And although the “Anti-Jai Prabhupada” set will readily focus their anger on those followers who accept Prabhupada’s choices, we suggest their real gripe is with Bhaktivedanta Swami himself!
He’s the one who chose not to name a successor diksa guru … their beef is with him. So if you’re now angry because Srila Prabhupada didn’t make the changes you think he should have made, well that’s between you and him. I personally have no such argument with HDG.
I question the legitimacy of labelling an unqualified guru -- voted - in -- by similarly unqualified godbrothers as, “diksa guru.” (After all, if they were qualified then wouldn’t they have known they were voting in the unqualified?) The post -Prabhupada system conjured up in the war rooms has seen many a kanistha ‘guru’ carried away by a weak mind and strong senses, blooping hard, and leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. So what qualifies them for the position of diksa guru, replacing Srila Prabhupada?
“With these four imperfections, one cannot deliver perfect information of all-pervading knowledge. Vedic knowledge is not imparted by such defective living entities.”
(Introduction, Bhagavad-Gītā As It Is).
Similarly, that person, the Founder-Acarya who can never, and will never fall or disappear back into the Maya, who can’t be black-listed or suspended by the GBC, and who remains forever in the sincere follower's heart as the one pure, truthful, transparent via medium linking us to the entire Parampara; Lord Caitanya’s most trusted Senapati Bhakta, Planet Earth’s contemporary and primary source of divya-jana, initiating all who want it into spiritual life with transcendental knowledge, and the most important spiritual being in recent history of Vaishnavisim, an heroic influencer for the next 10,000 years: What justifies stripping Srila Prabhupada of his superior rank as diksha guru for his entire Society?
“Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination”
(Madhya lila 4.111).
*All TKG quotes courtesy of taped conversation 1980, Topanga Canyon, California.
[PADA: Good points. Yup! There are so many contradictions in the GBC's guru system.
I question the legitimacy of labelling an unqualified guru -- voted - in -- by similarly unqualified godbrothers as, “diksa guru.” (After all, if they were qualified then wouldn’t they have known they were voting in the unqualified?) The post -Prabhupada system conjured up in the war rooms has seen many a kanistha ‘guru’ carried away by a weak mind and strong senses, blooping hard, and leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. So what qualifies them for the position of diksa guru, replacing Srila Prabhupada?
“With these four imperfections, one cannot deliver perfect information of all-pervading knowledge. Vedic knowledge is not imparted by such defective living entities.”
(Introduction, Bhagavad-Gītā As It Is).
Similarly, that person, the Founder-Acarya who can never, and will never fall or disappear back into the Maya, who can’t be black-listed or suspended by the GBC, and who remains forever in the sincere follower's heart as the one pure, truthful, transparent via medium linking us to the entire Parampara; Lord Caitanya’s most trusted Senapati Bhakta, Planet Earth’s contemporary and primary source of divya-jana, initiating all who want it into spiritual life with transcendental knowledge, and the most important spiritual being in recent history of Vaishnavisim, an heroic influencer for the next 10,000 years: What justifies stripping Srila Prabhupada of his superior rank as diksha guru for his entire Society?
“Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination”
(Madhya lila 4.111).
*All TKG quotes courtesy of taped conversation 1980, Topanga Canyon, California.
[PADA: Good points. Yup! There are so many contradictions in the GBC's guru system.
1) We were "appointed" as acharyas and therefore we have "pada" titles. We are officially pure devotees. Of course, if "appointing" someone as a pure devotee makes them a pure devotee, why weren't the whole 5,000 disciples appointed as pure devotees? Why only the 11?
BTW! Why wasn't I appointed to be a pure devotee? That would have made my whole life a lot simpler. No need to struggle to think of Krishna, I would have been in Vaikuntha already! Hee hee!
2) We were told in 1977 that Sridhara Maharaja will be ISKCON's shiksha guru. And he helped establish the ZONAL GURU idea "there is a guru for the zone," which is of course a nonsense idea. The guru is the guru for the entire jagat, not just a small area.
3) OK ooops in 1980, we were not appointed, rather we were voted in by the GBC. And some of the people who did the voting of our pure devotees later on fell down and blooped. And some of the people voted in as pure devotees also later on fell down and blooped.
And then our entire operation was sued for $400,000,000 for mass child abuse -- because we meanwhile did not even perform basic management of the society and its most vulnerable citizens.
4) OK it is now 1982. We now know the REAL truth! Sridhara Maharaja is a demon who is trying to take over ISKCON and we were told NOT to consult with him.
5) OK it is 1983 and Gaura Govinda Maharaja has to step up at the GBC meeting to stop Tamal from being removed from his guru post. We must save the founder father of pedophile pooja at all costs! How can we have a nice mass child molester program without keeping the leader in his post?
6) Never mind it is now 1984 and now we have a new advisor, BV Narayan Maharaja. And he is helping us write "The Guru Reform Notebook," because gurus are often demons who need to be reformed.
7) Ooops it is now 1997! BV Narayan is a demon who is trying to take over ISKCON. No one can visit him or distribute his books, or they will be banned!
And so on!
In other words, there has never been any clear instruction to make acharyas, even according to -- themselves. And there are so many other contradictions, no one could even count them, we just reviewed a few herein. The good news? People are catching on to their tricks. ys pd]
angel108b@yahoo.com
===============
DVD: Considering the outcome of the 11. It is no wonders so many devotees want to bring people to Srila Prabhupada the prevelent Acarya for the 10,000 year golden age. In the Gita Srila Prabhupada only listed 32 in the parampara from Brahma to himself. I can only recommend people to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada who iskcon parrots -- is the savior of the Whole world, except they ban people who take his shelter. I believe he is the savior. Since day one we brought people to Srila Prabhupada who can bring them back to godhead. Nothing has changed for me.
No GD, most of them fell down, did not chant 16 rounds, had sex & blooped after some time. They are not even basic kanisthas, who do follow.
VK: exactly. Most of their followers have also blooped in great anger. The changed books are a fraud to our disciplic succession.
KP Devi Dasi. It would be interesting to have a survey to find out what percentage of Srila Prabhupada's disciples think Srila Prabhupada left the ritvik system to contunue post samadhi
VK: Most godbrother’s are banished from Iskcon if they don’t go along with the elected guru system of the gbc. That’s the case of almost all the Prabhupada disciples. The business of the people that stay is to be operating in a compromised position with PRABHUPADA’S instructions.
DVD: Its kali yuga. Everyone is unlucky, misguided, unfortunate,.. always disturbed. Being born in kali yuga most have difficult karma.
L Devi Dasi: When Srila Prabbupada requests for us to cooperate, it is to be done under his instructions. How do you cooperate under constant change depending on who makes the rules, and the rules keep changing almost daily?
DD: The GBC changes the rules like a mother changes her baby's diapers, they say our previous idea was a sack of sh**, welcome to the new sack of sh**. They never actually get rid of the problem, they just make a new problem. They could not get rid of Jayatirtha, Bhavananda etc., and now they cannot get rid of Lokanath.
New day, same dirty diaper problem. ICC people are the worst, they think we need to have our children worshiping their pedophile acharyas. They are like Hiranyakasipu, no child should worship the right thing, they hate to see children who worship Krishna and His pure devotee.
Same demons have always been here. They are saying children need to worship pedophiles because they are disciples of Kali yuga. Why does ICC hate to see pure devotees like Yuddhisthira being worshiped, just like the demons in Krishna book? We need to worship -- Kamsa instead? They would rather people worship a diaper full of sh** than a pure devotee? And they are the best scholars ISKCON can find?
PADA: 1981? You mean when BCS's program was molesting hundreds of children wholesale, and we were being banned for protesting? Anyway! We agree. Bhakti Caru swami is not actually gone. He has taken birth on the planet of his molester messiah's lover's club pals. There he will have all the worship of illicit sex with men, women and children, and cats, that he can handle, without anyone like PADA interrupting! He will freely be able to worship his illicit sex acharya's pals without any impediments! Yes, not actually gone, but gone to where he belongs. ys pd
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