Discussing "National Child Abuse Prevention Month"

[PADA: Interesting, just at the same time we got a question about Prithu's and Rambhouru's (Brinkman) support of their pedophile / child molesting guru process, other folks are discussing the same exact issue elsewhere. I was talking with another devotee who said, "When Sri Isopanisad says -- these people are the most dangerous elements in human society, that is no joke. 

"No other human beings on earth -- teach their own religion's children to worship an illicit sex and pedophile guru lineage program -- except these hellish people. Very dangerous for all of the children all over the world. They need to be exposed and I am going to help you do that. They should not be allowed to get even one more child caught in the net of their program of worshiping a pedophile guru lineage, this is very dangerous for ALL children EVERYWHERE." 

Very nice sentiment. We need to get all the warriors we can get at this stage. Expose this Prithu and Rambouru program, agreed! Anyway, it looks like lots of other people are getting on board opposing the "most dangerous elements in human society." Bravo! 

This person also said, Rambhouru is like the arsonist fire man who starts buildings on fire, then runs over to act like the hero who is putting it out. She is promoting the trauma making program, then making pretend she is here to "help" save you from her own co-creation. Except, she fails to explain -- she tossed on the gasoline and lighted the matches. Hee hee, good analysis. Every day, more people are catching on!] 

pada @ [angel108b@yahoo.com]

CMD: During this National Child Abuse Prevention Month, let's make it crystal clear: CHILD ABUSE IS VAISHNAVA APARADHA. It is not an "accidental falldown." The precept of "chant away sins” is not sufficient to offset a mad elephant offense of crushing and crippling a young, tender bhakti seedling.

Too often, in ISKCON (and other related Gaudiya Vaishnava groups), Bhagavad Gita verse 9.30 is misquoted, or at least quoted out of context, and misapplied. In Sanskrit, this is the “api cet su-duracaro” verse.

Here’s the English translation: “Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.” In his purport, Srila Prabhupada offers an important caution: “this verse only refers to an accident due to the strong power of material connections.” 

There are clear instructions on the difference between what one can do in the event of an accidental fall down and what one must do in the case of Vaishnava-aparadha. For instance, consider the stories of Hiranyakasipu and Prahlad Maharaj; Saubhari Muni and Garuda; Sacimata and Advaita Acarya; Jagai, Madhai, and Lord Nityananda; as well as Durvasa Muni and Ambarisa Maharaja.

In all of these situations, the Supreme Lord says amnesty is not His to give. That has to come from the offended devotee. It’s important to keep in mind, while the offenders may still be considered Vaishnavas, they will not have properly atoned, or be able to fully revitalize their Krishna consciousness, until they have pleased – and are forgiven by – the offended Vaishnava.

Who says so? Our Scriptures say so.

For example, in the purport of Srimad Bhagavatam 4.26.24, Srila Prabhupada writes: “The conclusion is that if Krsna consciousness is covered by material sins, one can eliminate the sins simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, but if one pollutes his Krsna consciousness by offending a brahmana or Vaishnava, one cannot revive it until one properly atones for the sin by pleasing the offended Vaishnava or brahmana.”

The final sentence of this purport is crystal clear: “A Vaishnava-aparadha cannot be atoned by any means other than by begging the pardon of the offended Vaishnava.”

https://seekingtheessence.wordpress.com/.../i-beg-your.../

I Beg Your Pardon – The Only Way to Atone for Vaishnava Aparadha

SEEKINGTHEESSENCE.WORDPRESS.COM

I Beg Your Pardon – The Only Way to Atone for Vaishnava Aparadha

There is a long standing misconception in ISKCON that "forgiveness" comes from the institution and that it should include allowing a serious offender to keep his or her institutional positions. That justification often comes from a selective retelling of the Jagai and Madhai story.

To clarify: Both brothers had committed all kinds of sins before their dramatic confrontation with Lord Caitanya. Both brothers begged Lord Caitanya for mercy. Jagai was immediately forgiven by Caitanya, because he hadn't offended a Vaishnava (and had stopped Madhai from striking Nityananda again).

Madhai was not, because he had committed Vaishnava aparadha (by striking Nityananda). Lord Caitanya told Madhai that forgiveness, and subsequent mercy, could only come from Nityananda, the person Madhai had offended. Madhai sincerely begged Nityananda for forgiveness, and Nityananda voluntarily gave it.

AFTER the brothers had properly atoned, Nityananda encouraged them to establish a bathing ghat on the bank of the Ganges, daily serve the pilgrims, tell all visitors of their previous sins and offenses, and to humbly beg the pilgrims for their mercy, over and over, year after year, so as to never take up those shameful activities again.

Bottom line: Even though Jagai and Madhai had redeemed themselves, and both became glorious servants of the Lord, Caitanya and Nityananda DID NOT put them in charge of one of Their Sankirtan parties.

PADA: Rationalizing criminal behavior is what happens in many personality cults. It is the behavior of cults and not bona Fide religion. Ys pd

BCD: They can be forgiven when in the next life, after being beaten to death by Yama duttas, they are resuscitated and repeat.

TD: According to Manu Samhita the proper punishment is to cut the perpetrators genitals OFF and let them hold them and walk into to sun until they drop dead. Yet, they usually get protected by mismanagement. That's how far we are from taking child abuse seriously in the movement. It's the highest form of demonic idiocy I've ever witnessed.

CMD: It took me years, decades really, to understand what ISKCON collectively did to the pioneer gurukulis was organized, sustained, Vaishnava-aparadha. For some scriptural comparisons: Madhai physically hit Nityananda. One time! Sacimata had unkind thoughts about Advaita Acarya. Thoughts! Saubhari Muni forbid Garuda from eating a fish. Words! 

If those offenses are considered Vaishnava-aparadha, then the systemic physical, mental, emotional, psychological, sexual and spiritual abuse of a generation of young, vulnerable devotees, who Srila Prabhupada affectionately called his "Vaikuntha Children," is also Vaishnava-aparadha.

BWD: CM, I thought of the aparadha angle when the abuse was happening. I even told ND that one time prior to getting the chalkboard pointer upside the head.

CMD: Clever!

BWD: CMD, I tried laying a Brahmin style curse or two also. lol

NS: It's inconsistent to use Jagai and Madai as examples of Bhagavan Kripa with regard to child abuse in ISKCON. Whoever keeps using it as defense is using red herring logic. Really, all followers at the time in Iskcon had plenty of consultation, correction and direction from their spiritual master, as well as plenty of access to the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness.

A more appropriate example to draw from was that of Chota Haridas, who took the position of a renounced devotee of God while at the same time acted in such a way as to bring doubt to his sincerity. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, once hearing of Haridas' dealings had restricted Haridas from association.

Chota Haridas showed remorse and was ultimately able to obtain service position again.

CMD: NS, I hear you. Tell that to the powers that be. They're the ones who, since the late 80s / early 90s, regularly trot out Bhagavad Gita 9.30, followed by Jagai and Madhai, as their go to spiritual bypassing justifications.

K Dasi: Looking at your reference to Chota Haridas, you note that he showed remorse AND had restrictions placed up him. It seems like many of the offenders think a public letter is enough remorse to remain on the vyasasan. Also, Chota Haridas returned to the association of devotees... but did he sit on a throne for worship?

BD: All these examples are rubbish. No where in our scriptures does it describe what should happen to anyone who molests devotee children. We have and example of abuse, and that ended with Narasringa ripping his guts out and using them as a garland.

K Dasi: He returned in his next avatar.

CMD: My point being, Chota Haridas gave up his body because of his remorse. Some folks wont even give up their position [as gurus]. 

BD: Correct.

NS: After being told that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu would have nothing more to do with him, Chota Haridas considered his life no longer worth living. After giving up his life, he returned to service.

Where Jagai and Madai had no information or inspiration to learn on, they were forgiven, but instructed (and accepted) to no longer commit heinous acts; Chota Haridas had already taken up a senior position amongst his congregation and was found to have continued forbidden activities. For Gaudiyas, these two stories show the differences of response given time, place and circumstance (kala, desh, patra)

BD: Ye, but none of these people were molesting Vaishnav children. That is high crimes and not misdemeanors.

NS: No, Jagai and Madai and Chota Haridas were not child abusers or molesters. If the society leaders and their followers are using the forgiveness of Jagai and Madai as the basis for their call to forgive, they're either sorely mistaken or misguided. The example which more closely portrays what the correct response (at minimum) should be to a person - who, having once been corrected, reverted to either their past undesirable behavior or worse would be Chota Haridas' story.

Of course, I'm not suggesting the offenses are the same. I'm suggesting the example they're using is wrong. At least Chota Haridas' story is one of the -reversion - toward illicit behavior and the appropriate -response- (even if the illicit behavior discussed is far more benign than what has recently occured).

It is a logical fallacy to use the forgiveness of Jagai Madai as guidelines for how to respond to child abuse, because Jagai Madai were already at their lowest point. Chota Haridas was at his most reformed point and reverted. He was disbarred, excommunicated, disassociated, disallowed, etc. Even though many begged for his forgiveness, there was no relenting.

One example is less applicable than the other, and while both are nowhere near what had occurred, they each show completely different responses.

K Dasi: I think the GBC can also be compared to the Kaurava court full of men who sat silently, while Draupadi was dragged in to be disrobed in front of them. Duryodhan had his thighs smashed to death, just for slapping his thigh gesturing to Draupadi. Krishna protected her, and instructed the smashing of the thighs. She washed her long hair in the blood of Duryodhan!

NS: Sure, but that was Dwapara Yuga, and this is Kali. yada yada hi dharmasya...

krsna varnam tvisakrsnam... These two will surely be used in rebuttal. One example is "old testament" one is "new testament". Just so it's clear, my main purpose in posting anything on this subject is to show that Jagai and Madai's forgiveness is not a valid reference.

What should be done will always be a point of contention, but using Chaitanya Lila as basis, Chota Haridas' offense was minor in comparison, and he was summarily dismissed from the community. This should have been the premise to start deliberation.

K Dasi: I'm not suggesting this action! I am making the point about how Krishna protected Draupadi from sexual harassment, assault and attempted rape, in front of all the male leaders who sat silently. They were all killed in the battle of Kurukshetra to defend Dharma!

NS: Yes, Krsna gives no quarter for offenders.

BD: One more example that doesn’t match the circumstances in my opinion we’re talking about the molestation of children -- not the disrobing of a woman. We’re talking about sodomizing little boys and raping little girls who are Devotee‘s of Krishna. None of these things compare ... not even close ... boils my blood Devotee‘s try to compare this sh*t ... but trying to pick on you KD.

Also there are admitted child molesters on the GBC which makes them all guilty by association and their silence. 

BD: There is only one good response in my opinion, that is the garland of their intestines around their own neck as was done by Narasimgha when He dealt with child abuse.

That’s the only example you can find for child abuse of a Devotee, what to speak of other things like molesting, raping, sodomizing. This was just repeating, poisoning devotee children, trying to kill them by killing their spirit. These are worse things, and that ended in some deaths. And no one was able to appease Narasimgha -- only punishing the offender was able to calm His anger. 

This is the only reference to any of our Scriptures what should happen to one abuses Devotee children ... it’s the death penalty along with all of their followers anything less goes against Sastra and our founders teachings

K Dasi: I used that reference because one of the cases currently being discussed pertains to an 11 year old girl (at the time) which was justified by adultifying her (which is a form of psychological abuse, often used to justify sexualizing a child in her development). For me it’s also relatable as a girl / woman of any age, because there are attempts to “disrobe” us at all ages!

BD: By men, yes that is biological and nature. But grown men and women trying to sexualize children absolutely is absolutely unacceptable and then try to justify it with scripture afterwards.

K Dasi: Do you think it's biological and natural for men to harass and rape women?

R Dasi: CM, I appreciate your studied and logical approach to this and how clearly and concisely you identify the issues and attack them with scriptural evidence and deep humanity. Thank you for being such a strong voice.

CM: Thank you for your encouragement!

GD: Forgiveness is not a cheap thing, and forgiveness for abusers of the women and the children? Minor offences maybe, but not major offence. Major offence means major defense!! I may not be able to punish, but I am able to protect..!! That I can do! We can all protect..!

KC: Deep pain needs to be released many times. I am not done releasing either. Every leader in Iskcon is complicit in all the criminal activities.

PADA: When the GBC's "guru" touched the 11 year old girl, their family was told by the GBC that the molester would never hold a post of authority again. And yet shortly after that, the family saw the molester initiating more disciples. I know the victim personally, and she and her family are shocked to the core that this would happen. There is no remorse. 

They told me, the leaders just double down on promoting deviants as gurus at every step. This is called re-victimizing the victim. And when a devotee in Alachua was complaining about all this, he was kicked out of his service. That means the family is right, doubling down. Of course when I said Jayatirtha is not an acharya because he is engaged in illicit sex and offering LSD to the shalagram, they booted me out -- and kept him in the post of guru. It is what they do. ys pd

Related previous article:

http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2021/04/rambhoru-and-bogus-jesus-program.html