Can the layman be a brain surgeon?
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-18/editorials16369.htm
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-18/editorials16369.htm
[PADA: Wait? Normally, shastra says that an acharya is a pure devotee and "diksha guru" -- which means "one who able to give pure divyam jnanam and absorb sins" (aka diksha). Now Rocana says nope, shastra is not correct! Why?Because: there are now -- all of a sudden -- two levels of diksha gurus.
There are: (A) the pure devotee diksha guru acharyas (aka Srila Prabhupada) -- those who can give pure divyam jnanam and absorb sins (give diksha); And now there is another level of diksha guru namely -- (B) the ordinary "regular Joe devotee" diksha guru.
Yes, there are pure devotee diksha gurus and the ordinary man "regular Joe" diksha gurus. Ooops, shastra says it is a severe offense to say that the guru is an ordinary man aka "regular guy" and "ordinary Joe" level of devotee. Srila Prabhupada said to us, "When a layman tries to perform the brain surgery operation he will cause chaos, and people will die. And guru is way beyond brain surgeon." Sorry, we do not want the ordinary "regular Joe guy" to perform our brain surgery operation?
Where does Srila Prabhupada say there are (A) pure devotee diksha gurus, and (B) regular Joe devotee diksha gurus? And where was this process ever implemented in Vaishnavism? Where do we find any examples of the "pure devotee diksha gurus" and the "regular Joe devotee" diksha gurus? Isn't Rocana concocting this whole idea? And haven't Rocana's "regular Joe / ordinary guy gurus" created a whole lot of bad surgery operations?
Yes, there is Jesus -- a person who can absorb sins, and now (according to Rocana at least) there is the regular guy, ordinary Joe neophyte who can also absorb sins like Jesus is doing. Rocana is telescoping these levels together, just like his Gaudiya Matha and GBC mentors have done.
What exactly is an ordinary "regular Joe devotee diksha guru" in the first place? No one can even find such an idea in Srila Prabhupada's books? And how does this work in real life, there is (A) the real brain surgeon, and (B) there is the ordinary guy, regular Joe hospital janitor -- who can also perform the brain surgery? This will result in people dying, that's all!
Sorry, there is no such thing as the regular guy, ordinary Joe, i.e. conditioned soul diksha guru. Srila Prabhupada has said this many times, when a drowning man tries to save another drowning man, they both drown. The conditioned neophyte "regular Joe devotee" cannot absorb the sins of another conditioned soul, it will cause both of them to fail.]
There are: (A) the pure devotee diksha guru acharyas (aka Srila Prabhupada) -- those who can give pure divyam jnanam and absorb sins (give diksha); And now there is another level of diksha guru namely -- (B) the ordinary "regular Joe devotee" diksha guru.
Yes, there are pure devotee diksha gurus and the ordinary man "regular Joe" diksha gurus. Ooops, shastra says it is a severe offense to say that the guru is an ordinary man aka "regular guy" and "ordinary Joe" level of devotee. Srila Prabhupada said to us, "When a layman tries to perform the brain surgery operation he will cause chaos, and people will die. And guru is way beyond brain surgeon." Sorry, we do not want the ordinary "regular Joe guy" to perform our brain surgery operation?
Where does Srila Prabhupada say there are (A) pure devotee diksha gurus, and (B) regular Joe devotee diksha gurus? And where was this process ever implemented in Vaishnavism? Where do we find any examples of the "pure devotee diksha gurus" and the "regular Joe devotee" diksha gurus? Isn't Rocana concocting this whole idea? And haven't Rocana's "regular Joe / ordinary guy gurus" created a whole lot of bad surgery operations?
Yes, there is Jesus -- a person who can absorb sins, and now (according to Rocana at least) there is the regular guy, ordinary Joe neophyte who can also absorb sins like Jesus is doing. Rocana is telescoping these levels together, just like his Gaudiya Matha and GBC mentors have done.
What exactly is an ordinary "regular Joe devotee diksha guru" in the first place? No one can even find such an idea in Srila Prabhupada's books? And how does this work in real life, there is (A) the real brain surgeon, and (B) there is the ordinary guy, regular Joe hospital janitor -- who can also perform the brain surgery? This will result in people dying, that's all!
Sorry, there is no such thing as the regular guy, ordinary Joe, i.e. conditioned soul diksha guru. Srila Prabhupada has said this many times, when a drowning man tries to save another drowning man, they both drown. The conditioned neophyte "regular Joe devotee" cannot absorb the sins of another conditioned soul, it will cause both of them to fail.]
RD: They do not recognize Srila Prabhupada to be of equal stature with his predecessor Sampradaya Acaryas, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.
[PADA: Correct, for the Gaudiya Matha folks and Rocana to say that the "regular Joe devotee" can act in the same diksha guru capacity and status as the acharyas has minimized the status of actual acharyas. Why does Rocana keep saying that the regular Joe devotee can be a diksha guru and absorb sins like Jesus, which is what Sridhara Maharaja and the bogus Gaudiya Matha folks established after 1936? Did I forget to mention that there has been an epidemic of sickness, madness, criminality, scandals, lawsuits, police raids, fall downs, murders, porno swamis buried in samadhis -- and so and and so forth ad infinitum -- all of which emanates from Rocana's "ordinary Joe" guru parampara?
Yes, no one we know of has ever heard of the "ordinary Joe guru parampara" from Srila Prabhupada's works?
And aren't these ordinary man "regular Joe devotee diksha gurus" getting sick, falling down, going insane and dying prematurely from absorbing sins without authority? Never mind Rocana's "regular Joe messiahs" often are getting bogged down with many other offenses in general, because Srila Prabhupada says when the neophytes or "regular Joe devotees" take the post of acharya, they put on cement boots that takes them (and their followers) to the most hellish planets?
Why does Rocana want to place cement boots on his fellow devotees, and send them packing off to the hellish planets?
Srila Prabhupada says that when the ordinary Joe neophytes pose as acharyas they go to hell, and their followers go to hell with them. And that means -- if this policy is implemented in ISKCON -- then the whole society too also goes to hell. Why does Rocana keep saying he wants everyone to go to hell by artificially juxtaposing acharyas with his regular Joe / ordinary citizen devotees?]
Yes, no one we know of has ever heard of the "ordinary Joe guru parampara" from Srila Prabhupada's works?
And aren't these ordinary man "regular Joe devotee diksha gurus" getting sick, falling down, going insane and dying prematurely from absorbing sins without authority? Never mind Rocana's "regular Joe messiahs" often are getting bogged down with many other offenses in general, because Srila Prabhupada says when the neophytes or "regular Joe devotees" take the post of acharya, they put on cement boots that takes them (and their followers) to the most hellish planets?
Why does Rocana want to place cement boots on his fellow devotees, and send them packing off to the hellish planets?
Isn't Rocana killing neophytes by telling them they can absorb sins?
Srila Prabhupada says that when the ordinary Joe neophytes pose as acharyas they go to hell, and their followers go to hell with them. And that means -- if this policy is implemented in ISKCON -- then the whole society too also goes to hell. Why does Rocana keep saying he wants everyone to go to hell by artificially juxtaposing acharyas with his regular Joe / ordinary citizen devotees?]
RD: The Gaudiya Matha leadership's practice of actively seeking and encouraging siksa relationships with the Sampradaya Acarya's own disciples is a practice that clearly ignores Srila Prabhupada's elevated spiritual status.
[PADA: Yep, Rocana preaches exactly what the Gaudiya Matha preaches, that diksha gurus aka acharyas are sometimes regular Joe guys who fall down into scandals and so on. Sridhara Maharaja says, acharyas can go mad after money, women and followers, and how did you guess -- so do the GBC's and Rocana's.]
RD: The Gaudiya Matha does not differentiate between the potency of the disciple's direct connection to the Sampradaya through a Sampradaya Acarya, as opposed to the connection made through any other diksa or siksa guru.
[PADA: That is right, the Gaudiya Matha and Rocana think (A) the acharyas are diksha gurus and so are (B) the regular Joe devotees, who are also diksha gurus. They do not differentiate that -- the regular Joe janitor cannot be a brain surgeon. This is not possible. Rather there are tons of warnings in shastra, do not juxtapose the regular Joe devotees with the diksha guru acharyas.]
RD: Srila Prabhupada possessed extraordinary powers of personal perception. This was evident when he shared his realizations about the unfortunate events following His Spiritual Master's disappearance. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati requested the appointment of a GBC to maintain the preaching mission upon his departure, but he was silent as to the appointment of a successor Acarya.
[PADA: No he was not silent? He said none of you are qualified to be diksha gurus, and none of my Gaudiya Matha brothers were qualified in 1936 either. And he also established a system where he was going to be worshiped as the acharya after he departed. Thus the bhogha, the disciples, the money and everything else was going to be offered to him. And furthermore he said (countless times) -- do not change anything.
And furthermore he said many things like -- we neophytes cannot even allow people to touch our feet or we will be acting as diksha gurus, thus we will be absorbing sins, and this will take us down. He never said us regular Joe devotees can absorb sins as diksha gurus? He said the exact opposite -- and often. Of course this is called insanity, the regular Joe ordinary guy can pilot a 747, can do brain surgery, and can take the post of Jesus. These people end up in Bellevue mental home.]
RD: History has repeatedly demonstrated that both Acaryas placed the burden of responsibility squarely upon their respective GBC appointees, without precise instructions as to how their tasks should be accomplished.
[PADA: There are no precise instructions? What? There are tons of instructions! He said: the regular Joe devotee cannot absorb sins. Do not artificially make the regular Joe devotee into a diksha guru. We have to offer our bhogha to the pure devotee EXCLUSIVELY. Do not change anything. Only accept an uttama as the guru, and so on -- ad infinitum? Why is Rocana never reading any of these quotes, they are clear as daylight!]
RD: The onus was on them to come to the proper conclusion that their guru was much more than a "regular" spiritual master, but was rather a rare Sampradaya Acarya. As such, the normal course of events did not apply. During his lila, Lord Caitanya choose not to provide a nitya-siddha, maha-bhagavata, parampara-Acarya to replace him.
By purposefully sidestepping the succession issue, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's final instruction was for a cooperative effort.
[PADA: The issue of succession is clear, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta will remain as the acharya and there will only be a managerial board to manage the mission. There are hundreds of Churches in San Francisco and that is what they do also, they worship the acharya and have a managerial board to manage the mission. A priest reads from the words of Jesus, but he does not assume the post of Jesus?
There are also many people who still worship Ramanuja, Madhva and other acharyas in India and they also have managers to keep their temples functioning. Cooperating means, keeping the acharya in the center and not declaring that the ordinary Joe devotees can also give diksha like the acharyas.]
RD: This was also the case with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers were left with the same dilemma faced by Srila Prabhupada's GBC. Both GBC's (1937 - 1977) had to ponder the question of whether they should simply revert back to the traditional process of allowing disciples to assume diksa guru responsibilities, or work together to come up with a practical alternative that would maintain the momentum within the surcharged mission established by a shaktavesa avatara.
[PADA: Making the ordinary Joe devotees into diksha gurus is not found anywhere in the tradition? We also do not "allow" the ordinary Joe devotees to be diksha gurus, that means allowing deviation. Allowing the regular Joe neophyte devotee to "assume" the post of Jesus and tell people he can absorb sins as a diksha guru is also never found in the tradition?
We "assume" the post of Jesus, and take the responsibility of being Jesus, fine, what happens if we are not on the level Jesus? Notice Rocana's word "assume." That means we are not on that level, we are "assuming" we can be brain surgeons, but we are not actually qualified for that post.
That means, the patients will die ... and we will be arrested for manslaughter if not homicide for artificially "assuming" the post of brain surgery.
We hear this all the time, well Jayatirtha "assumed" the post of acharya, and he failed. Well yes, if I assume I am another Jesus, that will be the cause of my failure. We do not "assume" these levels. Of course the prakrita sahajiyas also assume they are pure devotees, gopis, manjaris, gurus, acharyas, and so on -- that is why Srila Prabhupada says, they are gliding to hell. We do not assume these positions, we have to be qualified first.]
RD: Common sense and historical memory indicates that taking the traditional direction would likely cause the Acarya's organization to self-destruct, which they both undoubtedly did.
[PADA: Making the ordinary Joe devotee into a diksha guru or an acharya is what causes mission to self-destruct. And Rocana has been among the biggest cheer leader of making ordinary men into acharyas, which is why Srila Prabhupada says -- gurusuh narah matih -- narakah sah, anyone who thinks the guru is an ordinary regular Joe guy is -- a resident of hell. No wonder then that Ajit Krishna / Torben / Kim Moller / Hanuman Croatia etc. cannot explain their support for Rocana's apa-siddhanta.
A "regular devotee" has to act as the street sweeper / temple pot washer / agent / deputy / preacher / at best priest (ritvik) representative of the acharya. Nothing more than that!
ys pd]
[PADA: That is right, the Gaudiya Matha and Rocana think (A) the acharyas are diksha gurus and so are (B) the regular Joe devotees, who are also diksha gurus. They do not differentiate that -- the regular Joe janitor cannot be a brain surgeon. This is not possible. Rather there are tons of warnings in shastra, do not juxtapose the regular Joe devotees with the diksha guru acharyas.]
RD: Srila Prabhupada possessed extraordinary powers of personal perception. This was evident when he shared his realizations about the unfortunate events following His Spiritual Master's disappearance. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati requested the appointment of a GBC to maintain the preaching mission upon his departure, but he was silent as to the appointment of a successor Acarya.
[PADA: No he was not silent? He said none of you are qualified to be diksha gurus, and none of my Gaudiya Matha brothers were qualified in 1936 either. And he also established a system where he was going to be worshiped as the acharya after he departed. Thus the bhogha, the disciples, the money and everything else was going to be offered to him. And furthermore he said (countless times) -- do not change anything.
And furthermore he said many things like -- we neophytes cannot even allow people to touch our feet or we will be acting as diksha gurus, thus we will be absorbing sins, and this will take us down. He never said us regular Joe devotees can absorb sins as diksha gurus? He said the exact opposite -- and often. Of course this is called insanity, the regular Joe ordinary guy can pilot a 747, can do brain surgery, and can take the post of Jesus. These people end up in Bellevue mental home.]
RD: History has repeatedly demonstrated that both Acaryas placed the burden of responsibility squarely upon their respective GBC appointees, without precise instructions as to how their tasks should be accomplished.
[PADA: There are no precise instructions? What? There are tons of instructions! He said: the regular Joe devotee cannot absorb sins. Do not artificially make the regular Joe devotee into a diksha guru. We have to offer our bhogha to the pure devotee EXCLUSIVELY. Do not change anything. Only accept an uttama as the guru, and so on -- ad infinitum? Why is Rocana never reading any of these quotes, they are clear as daylight!]
RD: The onus was on them to come to the proper conclusion that their guru was much more than a "regular" spiritual master, but was rather a rare Sampradaya Acarya. As such, the normal course of events did not apply. During his lila, Lord Caitanya choose not to provide a nitya-siddha, maha-bhagavata, parampara-Acarya to replace him.
By purposefully sidestepping the succession issue, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's final instruction was for a cooperative effort.
[PADA: The issue of succession is clear, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta will remain as the acharya and there will only be a managerial board to manage the mission. There are hundreds of Churches in San Francisco and that is what they do also, they worship the acharya and have a managerial board to manage the mission. A priest reads from the words of Jesus, but he does not assume the post of Jesus?
There are also many people who still worship Ramanuja, Madhva and other acharyas in India and they also have managers to keep their temples functioning. Cooperating means, keeping the acharya in the center and not declaring that the ordinary Joe devotees can also give diksha like the acharyas.]
RD: This was also the case with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers were left with the same dilemma faced by Srila Prabhupada's GBC. Both GBC's (1937 - 1977) had to ponder the question of whether they should simply revert back to the traditional process of allowing disciples to assume diksa guru responsibilities, or work together to come up with a practical alternative that would maintain the momentum within the surcharged mission established by a shaktavesa avatara.
[PADA: Making the ordinary Joe devotees into diksha gurus is not found anywhere in the tradition? We also do not "allow" the ordinary Joe devotees to be diksha gurus, that means allowing deviation. Allowing the regular Joe neophyte devotee to "assume" the post of Jesus and tell people he can absorb sins as a diksha guru is also never found in the tradition?
We "assume" the post of Jesus, and take the responsibility of being Jesus, fine, what happens if we are not on the level Jesus? Notice Rocana's word "assume." That means we are not on that level, we are "assuming" we can be brain surgeons, but we are not actually qualified for that post.
That means, the patients will die ... and we will be arrested for manslaughter if not homicide for artificially "assuming" the post of brain surgery.
We hear this all the time, well Jayatirtha "assumed" the post of acharya, and he failed. Well yes, if I assume I am another Jesus, that will be the cause of my failure. We do not "assume" these levels. Of course the prakrita sahajiyas also assume they are pure devotees, gopis, manjaris, gurus, acharyas, and so on -- that is why Srila Prabhupada says, they are gliding to hell. We do not assume these positions, we have to be qualified first.]
RD: Common sense and historical memory indicates that taking the traditional direction would likely cause the Acarya's organization to self-destruct, which they both undoubtedly did.
[PADA: Making the ordinary Joe devotee into a diksha guru or an acharya is what causes mission to self-destruct. And Rocana has been among the biggest cheer leader of making ordinary men into acharyas, which is why Srila Prabhupada says -- gurusuh narah matih -- narakah sah, anyone who thinks the guru is an ordinary regular Joe guy is -- a resident of hell. No wonder then that Ajit Krishna / Torben / Kim Moller / Hanuman Croatia etc. cannot explain their support for Rocana's apa-siddhanta.
A "regular devotee" has to act as the street sweeper / temple pot washer / agent / deputy / preacher / at best priest (ritvik) representative of the acharya. Nothing more than that!
ys pd]
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