Sunday, October 28, 2018

Jayapataka folks vs PADA: A very wonky discussion

PADA: Its odd, many GBC's folks think all the banning, beating, molesting, murders, police raids, lawsuits, bankrupting of ISKCON, empty ghost town temples, terrible publicity -- and all the rest of the mess created by their regime -- is some sort of divine leela. They are ignorant, that's all. 

These people are very aggressive when it comes to defending their false messiah's program. Now they are burying sexual predators and porno swamis in the holy dham, thus some residents of Vrndavana have been asking me about that topic. I said yes, they have been worshiping sexual predators as acharyas and anyone who objects can be treated badly, or even killed, that is who they are. And these resident people thanked me for helping them figure this out. 

As for the idea that gurus need "reform" (Rocana's 1986 "guru reform" movement), sorry, gurus do not need reform and rectification. That is called the mad elephant offense or guru avajna aparadha, to say that gurus are ordinary men (those who need rectification). Gurushu narah matih, narakah sah, anyone who says gurus are ordinary men (who need rectification) are residents of naraka.

AD: You are being offensive. There can always be rectification. Srila Prabhupada forgave sanyasi fall down. You underestimate the mercy of Gaura Nitai.

PADA: They are saying they are gurus in Krishna's guru parampara, not merely aspiring sannyasas? And Srila Prabhupada said suspend sannyasa, but then they made maybe 100 more? Sannyasa is still a conditioned soul, he can fail. To telescope that potentially failing position with parampara and guru is a deviation.

"One who thinks the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, who thinks of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession as an ordinary man, who thinks the Vaiṣṇava in the Acyuta-gotra to belong to a certain caste or creed or who thinks of caraṇāmṛta or Ganges water as ordinary water is taken to be a resident of hell." SB 4.21.12, Purport

One who thinks the guru is ordinary is a resident of hell, its that simple, we 

have to follow the shastra. ys pd

AD: It's a purification process. What does Krishna say in Bhagavad Gita? Have you forgotten that verse? To be considered saintly if fixed in their determination

PADA: Yes an ordinary neophyte needs purification, not the guru? They are saying they are diksha gurus in the parampara, not kanisthas or neophytes?

AD: Everyone needs purification, it's the material world. Unless nitya siddha.

PADA: Gurus in Krishna's guru parampara are laymen or ordinary men who need purification? If a person is conditioned, he needs purification. However if he declares he is a parampara guru, then he needs to be fully pure first of all, not after the fact.

"One who thinks the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, who thinks of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession as an ordinary man, who thinks the Vaiṣṇava in the Acyuta-gotra to belong to a certain caste or creed or who thinks of caraṇāmṛta or Ganges water as ordinary water is taken to be a resident of hell." SB 4.21.12, Purport

AD: Srila Prabhupada said even if not perfect, if following perfectly, they can be Guru. This means they are still being purified. Even Bharat Maharaj fell down.

PADA: Bharat Maharaja is not an acharya? Srila Prabhupada said that we cannot allow neophytes to pose as gurus like the Gaudiya Matha did? Srila Prabhupada says Bharat Maharaja was not consulting a bona fide guru, that is what lead to his failure.

AD: There you you are calling a Guru a resident of hell. Another way to look at it.

PADA: Srila Prabhupada said -- none of you can be diksha gurus (and absorb the sins of others) and if you do you will have to suffer, and they are suffering. The GBC says gurus are not just ordinary, they say gurus fall into illicit sex with men, women and children, i.e. gurus are commonly severe deviants.

AD: This is cruel mindset..not Srila Prabhupada's mood

PADA: Srila Prabhupada is cruel when he says neophytes will suffer if they become diksha gurus?

AD: Then they forfeit their position ... but they can still be forgiven. They are already suffering, they don't need your condemnation

PADA: And they are suffering from offenses and taking sins, just as Srila Prabhupada said they would. Srila Prabhupada says when a neophyte takes sins he will get sick, fall down or both, and a number of them died early. That means Srila Prabhupada is correct, they will suffer. Why is that cruel to say that? Its a fact, and we see it daily. A neophyte cannot even absorb his own sins, nevermind take the sins of others?

AD: I would not pose yourself as judge. We should work on mending our own defects. We don't know God's plan or who these individuals are.

PADA: Shasta is the judge? Anyone who says guru is like an ordinary man is -- a resident of narakah? I did not write the shastra? How can people mend their defects if they worship the defective? And why were we banned for citing shastra?

AD: I'm not debating that, you are condemning great souls. Rectification is always available for sincere Devotees.

PADA: Gurus in the parampara are deviating and need rectification? Rectification means they have to quit saying they are gurus, or that gurus are ordinary men? We cannot rectify being a drunk by buying a bottle of Vodka, we have to change the offense and stop doing it.

AD: I'm not, you're saying that. Do you know who Hiranyakasipu was? Gatekeeper of Vaikuntha

PADA: The gate keepers are not acharyas, nor are they saying acharyas are often deviants? Srila Prabhupada says, we cannot say guru is an ordinary man, its also called the mad elephant offense or guru avajna. And as long as people are being offensive, and they are not accepting Srila Prabhupada's statements, they cannot be rectified. Srila Prabhupada says, its guru avajna, its the mad elephant offense to say guru is ordinary, therefore -- it is.

AD: You are using sastra to judge the hearts of others. It's not your place.

PADA: But the GBC's say gurus fall down, its in their GBC reports?

AD: Guru is certainly not ordinary man.

PADA: Then you are arguing with yourself? You cannot say that acharyas are not ordinary men, while the GBC reports say guru is deviating and being monitored for said deviations, and also being suspended, removed, excommunicated and so on? I am quoting them? Only an ordinary man is in need of being chastised for deviating, not guru?

AD: Yes, because it's a dangerous environment. Krishna sees beyond externals.

PADA: And that is why so many of them fell down, got sick and died, they were told not to take sins and they did anyway, so they are being punished by Krishna. Correct.

AD: The diksha Gurus in ISKCON are warriors. Yes, they suffer. They link devotees to Srila Prabhupada and Parampara.

PADA: You just said that the parampara is not ordinary, at the same time its dangerous because they may fall down. If they are in danger of falling, they are not liberated beings.

If the spiritual master is considered an ordinary man, the disciple surely loses his chance to advance further.

SB 5.12.14, Purport: If one always follows the orders of the spiritual master, there is no question of falling down. As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. 

If the spiritual master is considered an ordinary man, the disciple surely loses his chance to advance further. Despite a very rigid life in devotional service, Bharata Mahārāja did not consult a spiritual master when he became overly attached to a deer. Consequently he became strongly attached to the deer, and, forgetting his spiritual routine, he fell down.

The spiritual master is the direct representative of the Lord, and no one should consider him an ordinary human being.

AD: Some shouldn't have become Gurus, that is certain. God has a plan.

PADA: Yes, God's plan is that their false gurus are getting sick, falling down and dying from being offensive / taking sins. They are warriors for the wrong side, they are saying neophytes can absorb sins, when Srila Prabhupada says they cannot. They are fighting with the orders of the acharya. God's plan is working well, they are getting sick, falling down and dying, God is clearing up their mess.

And they were also sued for $400,000,000 for orchestrating child abuse. And the courts ruled for the victims. So yes, God is helping expose what their program really is: They worship sexual predators as their gurus -- and therefore they created a society of webs and nests of sexual predators. 

And so God helped expose and sue that program. So God is exposing them, and bankrupting them. Yes, that is God's work, that is God's plan, yes you are correct. It is God's plan to have them sued and bankrupted and exposed as deviants. And now more of them are falling down, getting sick and dying, that is all God's arrangement.

If God says -- you neophytes cannot absorb sins or you will suffer, then that means, do not take sins -- or you will suffer. That is God's law, not mine.

AD: That is blasphemous. That is incorrect understanding. These souls are NOT neophyte. They are exalted beyond measure. You are neophyte for criticizing great souls.

PADA: No, Srila Prabhupada told ALL of us (includes Jayapataka) that you are ALL neophytes, you cannot allow people to even touch your feet at the pandal programs, because you will be taking karma and that will make you get sick, fall down or both. He also said that we neophytes cannot be diksha gurus, we will take sins and that will make us get sick, fall down or both and so forth. So among the 100 some gurus they made, most of them got sick, fell down or died? 

Why do you keep saying Srila Prabhupada made a mistake when he said ALL of you are not qualified to take sins? Now you are attacking Prabhupada's statements? And since the JPS guru program contains illicit sex with men, women and children, according to their own documents, that is called gurusuh narah matih .. narakah sah, saying guru is ordinary. Worse than ordinary.

That is not only an offense, Srila Prabhupada said the people saying that are residents of narakah ALREADY. He said they do not have to go to narakah, they are ALREADY there when they say gurus are ordinary and falling. And when I said there is a bogus guru program and even child molesting problem in 1979, JPS kicked me out of ISKCON and he kept the molester program in. What kind of great souls kick out the protest of child molesting and they keep the molesting program? 

JPS had to plead "no contest" in court. Great souls are protecting mass child abuse? Even bona fide kanistha neophytes do not protect child molesting guru projects? Meanwhile, you forgot to tell me what kind of guru parampara contains illicit sex with men, women and children -- from shastra? Where is this parampara mentioned in shastra, or is this not -- the quality of the demons and not the parampara? Your guru does not even know that illicit sex with men, women and children is not part of the guru parampara from Krishna? What guru is that? ys pd

AD: You're in an alternative reality. Jayapataka Maharaj is an associate of Lord Chaitanya. Did you forget Srila Prabhupada said that? Anyone can skew the truth to for their propaganda. No one who is a sincere devotee in ISKCON supports abuse, deviants or criminals.

PADA: Srila Prabhupada also said Jayatirtha is my tirtha. So that means, I should offer LSD and hash hish to the shalagram? Srila Prabhupada said encouraging things, fine. He also said that people who make illicit sex guru programs are going to hell. 

ISKCON "gurus": Srila Jayatirtha Tirthapada…

AD: Focus on your devotion, not on fault finding campaign and smearing the image of the Glorious ISKCON society. Deviation comes to a head and is exposed. The Lord is the judge and punisher.

PADA: Well yes hee hee, the bogus appointment issue, the changed books issue, the molesting issue, the criminality issue, and of course the poison issue (and many other deviations) all came to a head and surfaced, because Krishna's devotees exposed and promoted these issues. The Lord also works by using His jeevas to do things for Him. And the Lord judged -- the GBC program is wrong, and thus most people agree with us on these deviations.

The Lord says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāva-manyeta karhicit: one should not treat the spiritual master as an ordinary human being, for he is the substitute for the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 4.20.13, Purport: The word baddha-sauhṛdāḥ in the previous verse is explained herewith. One can fully remain in intimate connection with the Supreme Lord directly or receive orders from His bona fide representative the spiritual master and execute the orders sincerely when one keeps aloof from the activities of the body. The Lord helps us by giving us directions how to act in devotional service and thus advance on the path back home, back to Godhead. He instructs us outwardly in the form of the spiritual master. 

Therefore, one should not accept the spiritual master as an ordinary human being. The Lord says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāva-manyeta karhicit: one should not treat the spiritual master as an ordinary human being, for he is the substitute for the Supreme Personality of Godhead (SB 11.17.27). One should treat the spiritual master as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and never be envious of him or consider him to be an ordinary human being. If we follow the instruction of the spiritual master and execute devotional service to the Lord, we will remain always free from the contamination of bodily and material activities, and our life will be successful.

AD: Although Jayapataka Maharaja's character is spotless, here's a nice quote to remember. WE ARE NOT THE ULTIMATE JUDGE. We should certainly not criticize someone who has dedicated their life to Srila Prabhupada, even if there are perceivable spots. Sometimes there are imposters, that's a different thing and they are exposed in time. 

"The meaning is that even if one fully engaged in the devotional service of the Lord is sometimes found engaged in abominable activities, these activities should be considered to be like the spots that resemble the mark of a rabbit on the moon. Such spots do not become an impediment to the diffusion of moonlight. Similarly, the accidental fall down of a devotee from the path of saintly character does not make him abominable."

PADA: OK but when we said there is a deviant guru issue, an abuse issue etc., JPS kicked us out. That is not an accidental fall down, that is his intent -- to check us from protesting. Besides, Krishna judged all of the original 11 gurus already. Every single one of them either got sick, fell down or died? 

Jayapataka crammed Jayatirtha into the guru seat, and JT was having illicit sex with the wife of a follower -- and his head was then chopped off. Kirtanananda, Satsvarupa, Harikesha, Bhagavan and others got sick, fell down and so forth. So that means Krishna judged them already. Srila Prabhupada said if you neophytes take sins you will get sick, fall down, and as we see many of them died. 

There have always been deviants in the material world saying that gurus in Krishna's guru parampara are acting abominably. And shastra says -- those people have to stay in the material world for endless kalpas. They cannot be liberated by attacking Krishna and His guru parampara as abominable. And that is why they came to the material world in the first place, they thought Krishna and His parampara are acting abominably. That means, they have learned nothing in all these kalpas of being here already. 

They still have the same root disease that brought them here from square one. And that is why Srila Prabhupada 's shastra says, anyone who says Krishna's saksat hari tvena guru parampara is acting abominable, has to go to naraka, they cannot become liberated. Yes, its all part of the battle of the demons and the demigods going on since time began, the demigods worship the parampara, the demons declare the parampara as acting abominable, this is always going on. ys pd

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