Pratyatosa: Gopal Bhatta Das says -- Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books. If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
Dear Gopal Bhatta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Thank you very much for your valuable comments.
But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades. They are obviously just pretending because real gurus do not fall down, and real gurus are not subject to the dictates of a "GBC." So, let them continue pretending, but the GBC body itself should stop forcing all of ISKCON to live a lie (like they have been doing ever since early 1978).
Therefore, the GBC should:
1. Admit that they, as a body, ignored part of Srila Prabhupada’s 1970 DOM order (the part which states that TPs should vote devotees on and off of the GBC body).
2. Point out that Srila Prabhupada did not condemn them for this, and neither did a vast majority of the devotees.
3. Admit that they ignored Srila Prabhupada’s July 9, 1977 "ritvik henceforward" order, and beg the devotees to be merciful, to follow Srila Prabhupada’s example, and to not condemn them for this either.
4. Allow the current “gurus” to go on being “gurus.”
5. Not approve any new “gurus.”
6. Begin approving “ritvik representatives of the Acharya,” as Srila Prabhupada clearly prescribed in his July 9th letter.
7. Allow the “gurus” to request that their “guruship” positions be switched to ritviks, subject to GBC approval on an individual basis.
8. Allow the “gurus” to give up their “guruship” positions in exchange for a “golden parachute.” (Guaranteed retirement benefits for life.)
9. Order all TPs to, from now on, recommend qualified new bhaktas and bhaktins for initiation, and to request whichever ritvik is nearest to come and perform the ceremony.
In my humble opinion, if the above 9 points were actually carried out by the GBC body, it would satisfy most of the Ritviks and most of the ISKCONites as well.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
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Gopal Bhatta Das says: @”But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades”
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Basically it is happening already, gradually, step by step. Cause of the delay is that ISKCON’s original rank&file was completely replaced with those who support fallen gurus.
If we look inside of ISKCON there are presently 70% Indians, 10% Russians, 19% Asians and 1% Westerners. So these devotees who improve materially by joining ISKCON naturally fight like mad not to have anything changed.
So far ISKCONites only learn when there is damage.
Prabhupada: “Of all the processes for receiving knowledge, the least reliable is direct sense perception.” In other words, we have to be patient, unless there are events of damage or loss -- direct sense perception -- GBC won’t change anything. On the other hand the Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any idea?
ys Gopal Bhatta Das
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Praghosa Das says:
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu
Obeisances. all glories to Srila Prabhupada
You write: “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same. Same with my comments in 2005. I rely upon Srila Prabhupada’s own simple definition of the term: one who is singled out from amongst his happy servants and “selected, empowered and authorized” by him or his representatives -- to act “on behalf of Srila Prabhupada” as guru and assume full responsibility in the matter of who can and cannot be accepted as a bonafide initiated disciple in Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON mission.
This is the publicly recorded arrangement of Srila Prabhupada. Beginning with his conversations on May 27th and then the 28th -- he informed us as to what he planned to do. Then -- in June he did it and in July he informed us all what he did.
Once again -- for no apparent reason you again try to slight me. This time with the above pithy nonsense:
“”Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)”
But it’s not “GBC / TP / Ritvik Acharya.” It’s “GBC / TP/ Ritvik representative of the Acharya,” or simply “GBC / TP / Ritvik.” On May 28, 1977, when Tamal Krishna asked “Is that called ritvik-acharya?” Srila Prabhupada immediately corrected him and stated that the correct terminology is simply “ritvik.” 1½ months later, in his July 9, 1977 directive to all GBC men/temple presidents, Prabhupada further refined the terminology to “ritvik representative of the Acharya.” After that, he never again changed the terminology.
You again take liberties with what is said and give your meaning or interpretation to what is being said or was said by someone. In this case Srila Prabhupada. He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming.
The word ritvik means empowered representative. TKG used term ritvik. Ritivik was not a word known to anyone at that time. There had been conversations on the subject initiated by Srila Prabhupada during that period and according to Gauri Das Pandit prabhu -- this was the only reason TKG even knew of the term to ask about it.
ISKCON has ALWAYS worked with the only realistic system that could work within the context of a formal worldwide mission if it was to the sanctity and importance of its 7 (stated) Purposes: ie a system that insisted those acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf -- as his agents -- were sworn to his Oath of Allegiance and committed to working hand and glove with HIS Governing Body. This is the very essence of the true meaning of “ritivik representative” or “officiating acharya”.
I will waste no more time haggling with you over the terms or how they are placed. Ritivik Representative does not mean Priest in the context of Srila Prabhupada’s arrangements. The priest is the one who lights the fire and performs the ceremony The Ritivik Acharya takes personal responsibility in determining the legitimacy of a man’s professed “sincerity”. He is authorized to chant upon the man’s beads FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA.
He is responsible for eliciting this man’s commitment to reciting with reverence and affection -- at least 16 rounds of the Lord’s Holy Name and to abide by the simple 4 proscriptions to which we are all familiar. He gives the initiate his new name. He himself -- (many do not realize this) is held accountable to Srila Prabhupada -- IF he -- the ritvik acharya -- fails to do all in his power to ensure the disicple’s LIFELONG commitment to these simple actions. He is doing all this on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. BUT HE -- is doing that. His doing so -- on behalf of Srila Prabhupada -- does not mean he is not actually doing this. Anymore than a mother’s doing all she does -- on behalf of the father -- means actually the father is doing everything.
“For the book distributors to go on strike is just one possibility to motivate the GBC to finally come clean and start telling the truth. Another possibility would be for Ambarish Prabhu to temporarily stop giving any money. Another possibility is for the Supreme Court of India to get on their case.”
This is all mundane conception. As if who gains or loses money is or even should be factored in as a means to resolve this issue. Were that the case -- then the 30 million and counting that has been already lost -- would have long ago served to move people back to the correct and simple solution.
You have not distributed any books in years. So technically -- you have been on the very strike you call for.
The BBT has botched things themselves. The GBC has botched that also. And most of us who were hard core book distributors -- also got married and were forced to do other than full time daily direct book distribution. To me -- in the end -- this is all of us -- in one way or the other -- going on strike so to speak. The only real reason books were ever distributed in the mass quantities of that period -- was because Srila Prabhupada wanted it to be done -- and most of us in ISKCON at that time -- took his desire as our own -- and WANTED to do that.
After he left us -- each of us -- in our own way -- chose or were obliged -- to do something else. We all essentially -- went on strike. all that without any formal declaration of intent as you suggest. Now -- how has the above mentioned “strike” worked out for us? For Iskcon? In resolving this tenaciously contentious “guru issue”? Ahh…. I believe we all have an answer or two for that one.
“For their own good, the GBC has got to realize that the truth always wins out in the end, and that the longer they delay the inevitable, the more that they are going to have to suffer. Do they want to do down in history as the biggest fools/rascals in the history of Vaisnavism, or what?”
As I said -- the whole thing could be easily resolved within perhaps 1 Hour -- if all parties at the table are honest and sincere. From the day Srila Prabhupada “selected” some men -- to the exclusion of all other disciples -- we have had the exact system he left us. There are now some 10-12 thousand men and women whose initiating ritivik acharya himself -- either retired or fell away -- and the bulk of these men and women -- never saw it necessary to again search out another to RE- initiate them. Neither has any ISKCON leader of note -- insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position.
Why not stop with the subtle slights you keep tossing my way and initiate a direct discussion that can bring about full resolution to this ultimately simple problem?
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Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: …Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any ideas?
The Prabhupadanugas are united behind the fact that the July 9, 1977 letter clearly prescribes “ritvik henceforward” for all future initiations within ISKCON, and that’s all that really matters. If a majority of the GBC could be persuaded to admit that the Prabhupadanugas are right about this one point, and a GBC resolution to that effect succeeded in getting passed, then it should be downhill from that point on.
Ambarish Prabhu has recently expressed sympathy for the cause of the ISKCON Bangalore devotees. (See Ambarish Das writes to GBC on ISKCON-Bangalore dispute.) If you, Ambarish Prabhu, and Madhu Pandit Prabhu, would get together and put pressure on the GBC to admit that they, as a body, decided, at the Mayapur meetings in 1978, to simply ignore the July 9th letter, then it would be a great step forward.
Perhaps Naveen Krishna Prabhu still has some influence on Ambarish. Bhusaya Prabhu and his wife, Mother Lekhasravanti Prabhu (the daughter of world famous labor leader Walter Reuther), could also potentially influence him in the right direction.
If we all agree to give the GBC “immunity from prosecution,” perhaps they could be persuaded to finally come clean and admit to the truth. Then ISKCON would no longer be living a lie, and this first step could potentially lead to putting an end to the millions of dollars being wasted on legal fees! It could also potentially generate a lot of good publicity for ISKCON and for Srila Prabhupada’s glorious “Hare Krishna Movement.”
What do you think, Prabhu?
==============================
one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Praghosa das said "Neither has any ISKCON leader of note — insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position."
NOT TRUE!!!
After the fall down of Probably Vishnu swami at the next GBC meeting in Mayapur, Jayapataka maharaja brought up this very thing, saying that PV’s disciples had to be re-initiated -- so that they could be connected to a “living guru” (as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada?????). So re-initiation may not be as openly promoted as in the past -- but IT IS PROMOTED behind closed doors and it appears to be alive and well.
In regards to book dist. i’m of the same opinion as Gopal Bhatta. I’m very careful,very,very careful who I give a book to (unchanged of course). In the end more likely than not the recipient will go to a iskcon center and then become deceived and mislead (the old iskcon change up, remember?). Then more than likely, like Gopal Bhatta said they will then “bloop” and go away discouraged and burned out. I have seen it happen. One that I still see in the stores once in awhile has turned into a atheist!
I refuse to be part of this bait and switch game that the gbc/gurus/tp’s and iskcon is playing.
yhs,ofs.
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Shubham says: one FALLEN SOUL SAYS:”as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada”
This shows two points. You are not Krsna conscious even initially because soul never dies. And Acharyas are liberated souls. They guide us forever. it is very serious offense to Guru. This is what iskcon has created. Simply blaspheming indirectly or directly.
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Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Praghosa Das says: You write : “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-) ” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same.
NOT TRUE!!!
1. In “the essay you cited in your original questions to myself” (early 1998, not 1999), you don’t use the word “ritvik” even once!
2. On this website, you never used the word “ritvik” even once until I pointed out to everyone, “But of course, since you want to continue to associate with members of ISKCON, you are not allowed to even say the word ‘ritvik! This is obviously because, according to those offensive ISKCON ritvik-bashers, who are actually far worse association than karmis, Srila Prabhupada’s own terminology is a dirty word! Then you accepted the “dare” and immediately used the word for the first time just to prove me wrong! :-)
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one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Shubham.
Obviously you didn’t get the sarcasm. That is how the iskcon vapuvadis think of Srila Prabhupada, dead. Allegedly Jps made the now famous statement (when referring to Srila Prabhupada and his still being able to still give diksa) that “dead men don’t have sons”.
I’m a Prabhupada disciple and would never say anything as offensive as that about my guru maharaja, although that is how present day iskcon thinks of HDG. They (and you???) are vapuvadis.
===========================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
In response to Gopal Bhatta Prabhu’s insightful remarks, I was inspired to write comments then re-published twice under the title, “How to fix ISKCON in 9 easy steps,” the ensuing discussion of which might also be of interest:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/istagosthi/wgBBef2ePOk
==================================
Mahesh Raja says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
Mahesh: The ONLY WAY to FIX it is THE Srila Prabhupada way: EXPOSE THE JACKALS:
730503mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: No, it is Sanskrit. And in Bengal it is called vane asiya raja.(?) “In the forest a jackal has become king.” They are like that. Nila-varna-srigalavat.(?) When… There is big story about this jackal. I will tell you some. A jackal came in the village and he fell in the tub where, what is called, the water? No, no. The water man keeps the water for dipping, making little bluish. For coloring.
That blue, blue. So the washerman kept the dye water in a big tub, and the jackal fell in it. So jackal fell in it; he became blue, all blue. So he fled away, and all the animals said, “What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?” All, even lion became surprised. “We have not seen this.” “So who are you, sir?” “I AM SENT BY GOD TO RULE OVER YOU.” “OH?” SO THEY BEGAN TO WORSHIP HIM AS GOD, AS LEADER. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, “Wa, wa,” but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to “Wa, wa.” Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yavat kincin na bhasate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense.
We can detect that “Here is a jackal.” SO WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THEM. THEY ARE NOT LEADER; THEY ARE JACKALS. SO JACKALS CANNOT ANYMORE RULE OVER. THAT SHOULD BE OUR PROPAGANDA. NOT ONLY SCIENTIFIC, ALL POLITICAL THINGS, SOCIAL THINGS, EVERYTHING. THEY SHOULD BE ALL KICKED OUT. THEY SHOULD BE REPLACED BY KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN PEOPLE WILL BE HAPPY. THIS SHOULD BE OUR PROGRAM.
Our, this propaganda means to make people happy. It is not a business, to make business and take some money. And so many jackals have been arrested and resigned in your… You know that? Many jackals have been obliged to resign their post in the government.
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PD says:
You can download Aindra’s book for free from http://www.Krishnapath.org/aindras-book-the-heart-of-transcendental-book-distribution in both PDF ePub and the AudioBook
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Bhakta Joe says:
Praghosa says:
“He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming. The word ritvik means empowered representative.”
1) If he was confirming as claimed by Praghosa, then he would have agreed by saying, ““Yes Ritivik acharya”. However the fact is recorded as “Yes Ritivik”. Thus a change in terminology, thus a correction.
(btw: There is no such thing as Ritivik acharya)
2) The word ‘ritvik’ (meaning priest) can be referenced in Srila Prabhupada’s books, the use of ritvik priests to assist in ceremonies is a concept fully sanctioned in Srila Prabhupada’s books:
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 . (all these references are from the Srimad-Bhagavatam)
There is no such reference which means, “empowered representative,” as claimed by Praghosa.
=================================
Janaka Das says:
Aindra’s book ‘The Heart of Transcendental Book Distribution’ can be found here:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/documents/The_Heart_of_Transcendental_Book_Distribution_Aindra.pdf
Dear Gopal Bhatta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Thank you very much for your valuable comments.
But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades. They are obviously just pretending because real gurus do not fall down, and real gurus are not subject to the dictates of a "GBC." So, let them continue pretending, but the GBC body itself should stop forcing all of ISKCON to live a lie (like they have been doing ever since early 1978).
Therefore, the GBC should:
1. Admit that they, as a body, ignored part of Srila Prabhupada’s 1970 DOM order (the part which states that TPs should vote devotees on and off of the GBC body).
2. Point out that Srila Prabhupada did not condemn them for this, and neither did a vast majority of the devotees.
3. Admit that they ignored Srila Prabhupada’s July 9, 1977 "ritvik henceforward" order, and beg the devotees to be merciful, to follow Srila Prabhupada’s example, and to not condemn them for this either.
4. Allow the current “gurus” to go on being “gurus.”
5. Not approve any new “gurus.”
6. Begin approving “ritvik representatives of the Acharya,” as Srila Prabhupada clearly prescribed in his July 9th letter.
7. Allow the “gurus” to request that their “guruship” positions be switched to ritviks, subject to GBC approval on an individual basis.
8. Allow the “gurus” to give up their “guruship” positions in exchange for a “golden parachute.” (Guaranteed retirement benefits for life.)
9. Order all TPs to, from now on, recommend qualified new bhaktas and bhaktins for initiation, and to request whichever ritvik is nearest to come and perform the ceremony.
In my humble opinion, if the above 9 points were actually carried out by the GBC body, it would satisfy most of the Ritviks and most of the ISKCONites as well.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
==============================
Gopal Bhatta Das says: @”But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades”
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Basically it is happening already, gradually, step by step. Cause of the delay is that ISKCON’s original rank&file was completely replaced with those who support fallen gurus.
If we look inside of ISKCON there are presently 70% Indians, 10% Russians, 19% Asians and 1% Westerners. So these devotees who improve materially by joining ISKCON naturally fight like mad not to have anything changed.
So far ISKCONites only learn when there is damage.
Prabhupada: “Of all the processes for receiving knowledge, the least reliable is direct sense perception.” In other words, we have to be patient, unless there are events of damage or loss -- direct sense perception -- GBC won’t change anything. On the other hand the Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any idea?
ys Gopal Bhatta Das
================================
Praghosa Das says:
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu
Obeisances. all glories to Srila Prabhupada
You write: “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same. Same with my comments in 2005. I rely upon Srila Prabhupada’s own simple definition of the term: one who is singled out from amongst his happy servants and “selected, empowered and authorized” by him or his representatives -- to act “on behalf of Srila Prabhupada” as guru and assume full responsibility in the matter of who can and cannot be accepted as a bonafide initiated disciple in Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON mission.
This is the publicly recorded arrangement of Srila Prabhupada. Beginning with his conversations on May 27th and then the 28th -- he informed us as to what he planned to do. Then -- in June he did it and in July he informed us all what he did.
Once again -- for no apparent reason you again try to slight me. This time with the above pithy nonsense:
“”Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)”
But it’s not “GBC / TP / Ritvik Acharya.” It’s “GBC / TP/ Ritvik representative of the Acharya,” or simply “GBC / TP / Ritvik.” On May 28, 1977, when Tamal Krishna asked “Is that called ritvik-acharya?” Srila Prabhupada immediately corrected him and stated that the correct terminology is simply “ritvik.” 1½ months later, in his July 9, 1977 directive to all GBC men/temple presidents, Prabhupada further refined the terminology to “ritvik representative of the Acharya.” After that, he never again changed the terminology.
You again take liberties with what is said and give your meaning or interpretation to what is being said or was said by someone. In this case Srila Prabhupada. He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming.
The word ritvik means empowered representative. TKG used term ritvik. Ritivik was not a word known to anyone at that time. There had been conversations on the subject initiated by Srila Prabhupada during that period and according to Gauri Das Pandit prabhu -- this was the only reason TKG even knew of the term to ask about it.
ISKCON has ALWAYS worked with the only realistic system that could work within the context of a formal worldwide mission if it was to the sanctity and importance of its 7 (stated) Purposes: ie a system that insisted those acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf -- as his agents -- were sworn to his Oath of Allegiance and committed to working hand and glove with HIS Governing Body. This is the very essence of the true meaning of “ritivik representative” or “officiating acharya”.
I will waste no more time haggling with you over the terms or how they are placed. Ritivik Representative does not mean Priest in the context of Srila Prabhupada’s arrangements. The priest is the one who lights the fire and performs the ceremony The Ritivik Acharya takes personal responsibility in determining the legitimacy of a man’s professed “sincerity”. He is authorized to chant upon the man’s beads FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA.
He is responsible for eliciting this man’s commitment to reciting with reverence and affection -- at least 16 rounds of the Lord’s Holy Name and to abide by the simple 4 proscriptions to which we are all familiar. He gives the initiate his new name. He himself -- (many do not realize this) is held accountable to Srila Prabhupada -- IF he -- the ritvik acharya -- fails to do all in his power to ensure the disicple’s LIFELONG commitment to these simple actions. He is doing all this on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. BUT HE -- is doing that. His doing so -- on behalf of Srila Prabhupada -- does not mean he is not actually doing this. Anymore than a mother’s doing all she does -- on behalf of the father -- means actually the father is doing everything.
“For the book distributors to go on strike is just one possibility to motivate the GBC to finally come clean and start telling the truth. Another possibility would be for Ambarish Prabhu to temporarily stop giving any money. Another possibility is for the Supreme Court of India to get on their case.”
This is all mundane conception. As if who gains or loses money is or even should be factored in as a means to resolve this issue. Were that the case -- then the 30 million and counting that has been already lost -- would have long ago served to move people back to the correct and simple solution.
You have not distributed any books in years. So technically -- you have been on the very strike you call for.
The BBT has botched things themselves. The GBC has botched that also. And most of us who were hard core book distributors -- also got married and were forced to do other than full time daily direct book distribution. To me -- in the end -- this is all of us -- in one way or the other -- going on strike so to speak. The only real reason books were ever distributed in the mass quantities of that period -- was because Srila Prabhupada wanted it to be done -- and most of us in ISKCON at that time -- took his desire as our own -- and WANTED to do that.
After he left us -- each of us -- in our own way -- chose or were obliged -- to do something else. We all essentially -- went on strike. all that without any formal declaration of intent as you suggest. Now -- how has the above mentioned “strike” worked out for us? For Iskcon? In resolving this tenaciously contentious “guru issue”? Ahh…. I believe we all have an answer or two for that one.
“For their own good, the GBC has got to realize that the truth always wins out in the end, and that the longer they delay the inevitable, the more that they are going to have to suffer. Do they want to do down in history as the biggest fools/rascals in the history of Vaisnavism, or what?”
As I said -- the whole thing could be easily resolved within perhaps 1 Hour -- if all parties at the table are honest and sincere. From the day Srila Prabhupada “selected” some men -- to the exclusion of all other disciples -- we have had the exact system he left us. There are now some 10-12 thousand men and women whose initiating ritivik acharya himself -- either retired or fell away -- and the bulk of these men and women -- never saw it necessary to again search out another to RE- initiate them. Neither has any ISKCON leader of note -- insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position.
Why not stop with the subtle slights you keep tossing my way and initiate a direct discussion that can bring about full resolution to this ultimately simple problem?
=======================================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: …Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any ideas?
The Prabhupadanugas are united behind the fact that the July 9, 1977 letter clearly prescribes “ritvik henceforward” for all future initiations within ISKCON, and that’s all that really matters. If a majority of the GBC could be persuaded to admit that the Prabhupadanugas are right about this one point, and a GBC resolution to that effect succeeded in getting passed, then it should be downhill from that point on.
Ambarish Prabhu has recently expressed sympathy for the cause of the ISKCON Bangalore devotees. (See Ambarish Das writes to GBC on ISKCON-Bangalore dispute.) If you, Ambarish Prabhu, and Madhu Pandit Prabhu, would get together and put pressure on the GBC to admit that they, as a body, decided, at the Mayapur meetings in 1978, to simply ignore the July 9th letter, then it would be a great step forward.
Perhaps Naveen Krishna Prabhu still has some influence on Ambarish. Bhusaya Prabhu and his wife, Mother Lekhasravanti Prabhu (the daughter of world famous labor leader Walter Reuther), could also potentially influence him in the right direction.
If we all agree to give the GBC “immunity from prosecution,” perhaps they could be persuaded to finally come clean and admit to the truth. Then ISKCON would no longer be living a lie, and this first step could potentially lead to putting an end to the millions of dollars being wasted on legal fees! It could also potentially generate a lot of good publicity for ISKCON and for Srila Prabhupada’s glorious “Hare Krishna Movement.”
What do you think, Prabhu?
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one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Praghosa das said "Neither has any ISKCON leader of note — insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position."
NOT TRUE!!!
After the fall down of Probably Vishnu swami at the next GBC meeting in Mayapur, Jayapataka maharaja brought up this very thing, saying that PV’s disciples had to be re-initiated -- so that they could be connected to a “living guru” (as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada?????). So re-initiation may not be as openly promoted as in the past -- but IT IS PROMOTED behind closed doors and it appears to be alive and well.
In regards to book dist. i’m of the same opinion as Gopal Bhatta. I’m very careful,very,very careful who I give a book to (unchanged of course). In the end more likely than not the recipient will go to a iskcon center and then become deceived and mislead (the old iskcon change up, remember?). Then more than likely, like Gopal Bhatta said they will then “bloop” and go away discouraged and burned out. I have seen it happen. One that I still see in the stores once in awhile has turned into a atheist!
I refuse to be part of this bait and switch game that the gbc/gurus/tp’s and iskcon is playing.
yhs,ofs.
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Shubham says: one FALLEN SOUL SAYS:”as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada”
This shows two points. You are not Krsna conscious even initially because soul never dies. And Acharyas are liberated souls. They guide us forever. it is very serious offense to Guru. This is what iskcon has created. Simply blaspheming indirectly or directly.
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Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Praghosa Das says: You write : “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-) ” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same.
NOT TRUE!!!
1. In “the essay you cited in your original questions to myself” (early 1998, not 1999), you don’t use the word “ritvik” even once!
2. On this website, you never used the word “ritvik” even once until I pointed out to everyone, “But of course, since you want to continue to associate with members of ISKCON, you are not allowed to even say the word ‘ritvik! This is obviously because, according to those offensive ISKCON ritvik-bashers, who are actually far worse association than karmis, Srila Prabhupada’s own terminology is a dirty word! Then you accepted the “dare” and immediately used the word for the first time just to prove me wrong! :-)
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one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Shubham.
Obviously you didn’t get the sarcasm. That is how the iskcon vapuvadis think of Srila Prabhupada, dead. Allegedly Jps made the now famous statement (when referring to Srila Prabhupada and his still being able to still give diksa) that “dead men don’t have sons”.
I’m a Prabhupada disciple and would never say anything as offensive as that about my guru maharaja, although that is how present day iskcon thinks of HDG. They (and you???) are vapuvadis.
===========================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
In response to Gopal Bhatta Prabhu’s insightful remarks, I was inspired to write comments then re-published twice under the title, “How to fix ISKCON in 9 easy steps,” the ensuing discussion of which might also be of interest:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/istagosthi/wgBBef2ePOk
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Mahesh Raja says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
Mahesh: The ONLY WAY to FIX it is THE Srila Prabhupada way: EXPOSE THE JACKALS:
730503mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: No, it is Sanskrit. And in Bengal it is called vane asiya raja.(?) “In the forest a jackal has become king.” They are like that. Nila-varna-srigalavat.(?) When… There is big story about this jackal. I will tell you some. A jackal came in the village and he fell in the tub where, what is called, the water? No, no. The water man keeps the water for dipping, making little bluish. For coloring.
That blue, blue. So the washerman kept the dye water in a big tub, and the jackal fell in it. So jackal fell in it; he became blue, all blue. So he fled away, and all the animals said, “What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?” All, even lion became surprised. “We have not seen this.” “So who are you, sir?” “I AM SENT BY GOD TO RULE OVER YOU.” “OH?” SO THEY BEGAN TO WORSHIP HIM AS GOD, AS LEADER. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, “Wa, wa,” but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to “Wa, wa.” Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yavat kincin na bhasate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense.
We can detect that “Here is a jackal.” SO WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THEM. THEY ARE NOT LEADER; THEY ARE JACKALS. SO JACKALS CANNOT ANYMORE RULE OVER. THAT SHOULD BE OUR PROPAGANDA. NOT ONLY SCIENTIFIC, ALL POLITICAL THINGS, SOCIAL THINGS, EVERYTHING. THEY SHOULD BE ALL KICKED OUT. THEY SHOULD BE REPLACED BY KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN PEOPLE WILL BE HAPPY. THIS SHOULD BE OUR PROGRAM.
Our, this propaganda means to make people happy. It is not a business, to make business and take some money. And so many jackals have been arrested and resigned in your… You know that? Many jackals have been obliged to resign their post in the government.
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PD says:
You can download Aindra’s book for free from http://www.Krishnapath.org/aindras-book-the-heart-of-transcendental-book-distribution in both PDF ePub and the AudioBook
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Bhakta Joe says:
Praghosa says:
“He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming. The word ritvik means empowered representative.”
1) If he was confirming as claimed by Praghosa, then he would have agreed by saying, ““Yes Ritivik acharya”. However the fact is recorded as “Yes Ritivik”. Thus a change in terminology, thus a correction.
(btw: There is no such thing as Ritivik acharya)
2) The word ‘ritvik’ (meaning priest) can be referenced in Srila Prabhupada’s books, the use of ritvik priests to assist in ceremonies is a concept fully sanctioned in Srila Prabhupada’s books:
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 . (all these references are from the Srimad-Bhagavatam)
There is no such reference which means, “empowered representative,” as claimed by Praghosa.
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Janaka Das says:
Aindra’s book ‘The Heart of Transcendental Book Distribution’ can be found here:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/documents/The_Heart_of_Transcendental_Book_Distribution_Aindra.pdf
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