GEORGE A. SMITH: "Self Realization begins at home” and “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink” or “you cannot wake up a person pretending to be sleeping” are all sayings that come to mind when I think about Rocana dasa.
“Yes, clearly the Ritvik influence should be routed out of ISKCON. Ritvik-vada is apa-siddhantic. It goes against Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and sastra. Those who support Ritvik-vada should certainly not be singled out, and in biased fashion be given facility that other devotees have long been prevented from having: access to important documents,” says Rocana dasa.
Since the publication of DOR -- "The Defeat of Rocana Dasa" upon his site, Rocana dasa until quite recently published nothing under his name upon his own site. I was hoping that the conclusions that I had presented, both on how he could never defeat Rtvik Vada, because Srila Prabhupada validated the principle of guru-tattva -- that it was founded upon his acceptance of a disciplic succession from Jesus Christ, passed down over the ages by a very Rtvik type of initiation.
GEORGE: As far as to Rocana’s claim that he and The Sampradaya Sun champion Freedom of Speech, that’s a line of b.s. that I doubt that even Rocana dasa, as prone to self delusion as he is, as long as it masks his own character flaws, can actually swallow.
“Yes, clearly the Ritvik influence should be routed out of ISKCON. Ritvik-vada is apa-siddhantic. It goes against Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and sastra. Those who support Ritvik-vada should certainly not be singled out, and in biased fashion be given facility that other devotees have long been prevented from having: access to important documents,” says Rocana dasa.
Since the publication of DOR -- "The Defeat of Rocana Dasa" upon his site, Rocana dasa until quite recently published nothing under his name upon his own site. I was hoping that the conclusions that I had presented, both on how he could never defeat Rtvik Vada, because Srila Prabhupada validated the principle of guru-tattva -- that it was founded upon his acceptance of a disciplic succession from Jesus Christ, passed down over the ages by a very Rtvik type of initiation.
And the fact that I pointed out to him, in DOR, is how he had failed to support his chief contention -- here made again, that Rtvik is apa-siddhanta and that therefore that his own DOR, titled The Defeat Of Rtvik amounted to very little more than an exercise on wishful thinking -- might have gotten through to him. Sigh -- no such luck.
[PADA: Correct, Srila Prabhupada says that worship of Jesus even today is bona fide. He also says that Jesus is accepting the sins of his sincere followers -- even today. He also says, me and Jesus are brothers, and so on and so forth. So yes, based on the simplest arguments from Srila Prabhupada -- worship of Jesus today is bona fide, and that defeats Rocana from square one. This also means Rocana is a severe offender to Jesus and Srila Prabhupada by his saying their worship is bogus and apa-siddhanta.
Oddly the GBC gurus say the same thing as Rocana, "The Prabhupadanugas want to make Srila Prabhupada into another Jesus." Perhaps we do, but then again they want to make illicit sex with men, women and children into their "next Jesus." Of course this begs the question, why is Rocana always giving the GBC's guru arguments, saying Srila Prabhupada is post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem and so on, as the GBC gurus are doing all the time? Rocana is simply a parrot of Narayan Maharaja and Tamal, lets face it.
George prabhu is right, Rocana is really arguing with Srila Prabhupada when he says worship of pure devotees like Jesus is bogus and "apa-siddhanta." Meanwhile Rocana never says, whom else should be worshiped if not Srila Prabhupada?]
Oddly the GBC gurus say the same thing as Rocana, "The Prabhupadanugas want to make Srila Prabhupada into another Jesus." Perhaps we do, but then again they want to make illicit sex with men, women and children into their "next Jesus." Of course this begs the question, why is Rocana always giving the GBC's guru arguments, saying Srila Prabhupada is post samadhi, posthumous, postmortem and so on, as the GBC gurus are doing all the time? Rocana is simply a parrot of Narayan Maharaja and Tamal, lets face it.
George prabhu is right, Rocana is really arguing with Srila Prabhupada when he says worship of pure devotees like Jesus is bogus and "apa-siddhanta." Meanwhile Rocana never says, whom else should be worshiped if not Srila Prabhupada?]
GEORGE: As far as to Rocana’s claim that he and The Sampradaya Sun champion Freedom of Speech, that’s a line of b.s. that I doubt that even Rocana dasa, as prone to self delusion as he is, as long as it masks his own character flaws, can actually swallow.
[PADA: Right, it seems only a small handful of people are allowed to post their writings at all on the Sampradaya Sun, and the mass of devotees are screened out. And the circle of posters is getting smaller all the time. For example, Rocana never publishes anything we write, or any of our responses that we provide for his questions about the ritvik issue. Its a closed shop. He also does not allow posts from somewhat neutral people like Praghosha das. He keeps saying he has "won the debate," without allowing any comments from his opponents? "I won the fight, ... with my own shadow"?
Worse, he seems to be writing articles himself and then making up fictional names of alleged devotees as the writers, names that no one has ever heard of like -- Balavidya das, Hasya Mukhi dasi, and so on. These are writers that no one has ever heard of. We therefore do not even know if ANY of Rocana's writers -- exist at all? Are they active devotees? What siddhanta they do support? What guru do they worship if any, and so on. Rocana also does not allow any comments on his site. So, where is the freedom of expression he advertises? George says -- its all B.S.]
Worse, he seems to be writing articles himself and then making up fictional names of alleged devotees as the writers, names that no one has ever heard of like -- Balavidya das, Hasya Mukhi dasi, and so on. These are writers that no one has ever heard of. We therefore do not even know if ANY of Rocana's writers -- exist at all? Are they active devotees? What siddhanta they do support? What guru do they worship if any, and so on. Rocana also does not allow any comments on his site. So, where is the freedom of expression he advertises? George says -- its all B.S.]
GEORGE: Every once in a while he lets his intolerance of positions that he doesn’t agree with show to such a degree that even the less sophisticated (which is predominantly his target audience) will go “hey, wait a minute,” and they begin to waken to the reality of just how bigoted the Sampradaya Sun's position is, at which point Rocana dasa has to do a little bit of damage control, consisting mainly of writing a bunch of gobble-de-gook or work jugglery, that ends up getting his audience to scratch their heads and nodding off.
[PADA: Correct, everyone who asks us about Rocana's Sampradaya Sun web site asks us the same thing, what program does Rocana support? He writes reams and reams of documents, but there is no conclusion i.e. what siddhanta are we supposed to follow then?]
[PADA: Correct, everyone who asks us about Rocana's Sampradaya Sun web site asks us the same thing, what program does Rocana support? He writes reams and reams of documents, but there is no conclusion i.e. what siddhanta are we supposed to follow then?]
GEORGE: Rocana dasa doesn’t like the Rtvik influence within and over ISKCON, TOO BAD, he had better get used to it for one day ISKCON is going to realize that the acceptance of Rtvik makes a whole lot more since than continuing to rubber stamp a bunch of gurus who are continually falling down and making them look ridiculous.
[PADA: Good! Yes, the real question is, how are the Hare Krishna / ISKCON devotees going to progress from where we are now? We already tried Rocana's 1986 "reformed" idea of worship of the GBC gurus, where the "reformers" glorified Kirtanananda, reinstated Bhavananda, excommunicated me and Sulochana, and they started having more gurus voted in and so on, and it has not worked, plain and simple. Rocana was one of the 50 man committee to reform ISKCON, where they decided to vote in more acharyas, and re-instate a known molester as their messiah. Their scheme has not worked, never mind no one had ever heard of a "guru reform" before Rocana's team came down the pike.
So our idea, lets worship the pure devotee Srila Prabhuipada, is gaining traction because, as George points out, our idea makes a whole lot more sense. Shastra says: acarya-upasanam, one has to take shelter of the acharya. That is what our idea is, and that is the same idea we find in the shastra. There is no "other idea" as it turns out.]
GEORGE: Had Srila Prabhupada never validated Christianity and with it the principle of Guru Tattva that sustains both it and the Rtviks, there would indeed then be this cause for enmity towards the Rtviks that Rocana expresses for it would in fact then be api-siddhantic, but that is not the case. Rocana is basically accusing Srila Prabhupada of being api-siddhantic with his contentions since it was Srila Prabhupada, not the Rtviks who first validated the position of guru tattva that supports such an initiation process, this is the uncomfortable truth that Rocana dasa is refusing to face -- for whatever reason.
[PADA: The reason Rocana cannot admit he was wrong is simple, his support of the GBC gurus through the 1980s would make him karma connected / responsible for all kinds banning, beating, children molesting and murders. He cannot face the fact that he put his faith in the GBC's guru program, and he was even trying to repair it in 1986 when he became so foolish he self-advertised himself as an acharya repair man (reformer).
And that means, Rocana backed the wrong horse, and his horse came in dead last in the race. Now he has lost all his spiritual money and credibility by supporting the worship of the GBC's illicit sex messiah's program, so he has to attack those of us who all along were pointing out his huge mistake. The Bible says, at the time of judgement there will so much grief and knashing of teeth, yep, these people will be judged for supporting the molester messiahs program, and it ain't gonna be pretty, so they are desperately trying to paper over their HUGE mistakes, by making worse mistakes and offenses. Calling Srila Prabhupada a siddhanta deviant is just Rocana's way of digging his hole into a lower life much deeper. He is going down and he is digging his own way there. And just as people will be gleeful when the GBC gurus go down, they will be gleeful when the people who are spending their every waking moment attacking the pure devotee as a deviant also go down. ys pd]
[PADA: Good! Yes, the real question is, how are the Hare Krishna / ISKCON devotees going to progress from where we are now? We already tried Rocana's 1986 "reformed" idea of worship of the GBC gurus, where the "reformers" glorified Kirtanananda, reinstated Bhavananda, excommunicated me and Sulochana, and they started having more gurus voted in and so on, and it has not worked, plain and simple. Rocana was one of the 50 man committee to reform ISKCON, where they decided to vote in more acharyas, and re-instate a known molester as their messiah. Their scheme has not worked, never mind no one had ever heard of a "guru reform" before Rocana's team came down the pike.
So our idea, lets worship the pure devotee Srila Prabhuipada, is gaining traction because, as George points out, our idea makes a whole lot more sense. Shastra says: acarya-upasanam, one has to take shelter of the acharya. That is what our idea is, and that is the same idea we find in the shastra. There is no "other idea" as it turns out.]
GEORGE: Had Srila Prabhupada never validated Christianity and with it the principle of Guru Tattva that sustains both it and the Rtviks, there would indeed then be this cause for enmity towards the Rtviks that Rocana expresses for it would in fact then be api-siddhantic, but that is not the case. Rocana is basically accusing Srila Prabhupada of being api-siddhantic with his contentions since it was Srila Prabhupada, not the Rtviks who first validated the position of guru tattva that supports such an initiation process, this is the uncomfortable truth that Rocana dasa is refusing to face -- for whatever reason.
[PADA: The reason Rocana cannot admit he was wrong is simple, his support of the GBC gurus through the 1980s would make him karma connected / responsible for all kinds banning, beating, children molesting and murders. He cannot face the fact that he put his faith in the GBC's guru program, and he was even trying to repair it in 1986 when he became so foolish he self-advertised himself as an acharya repair man (reformer).
And that means, Rocana backed the wrong horse, and his horse came in dead last in the race. Now he has lost all his spiritual money and credibility by supporting the worship of the GBC's illicit sex messiah's program, so he has to attack those of us who all along were pointing out his huge mistake. The Bible says, at the time of judgement there will so much grief and knashing of teeth, yep, these people will be judged for supporting the molester messiahs program, and it ain't gonna be pretty, so they are desperately trying to paper over their HUGE mistakes, by making worse mistakes and offenses. Calling Srila Prabhupada a siddhanta deviant is just Rocana's way of digging his hole into a lower life much deeper. He is going down and he is digging his own way there. And just as people will be gleeful when the GBC gurus go down, they will be gleeful when the people who are spending their every waking moment attacking the pure devotee as a deviant also go down. ys pd]
Excellent!
ReplyDeleteAmazing, Rocana just got TKO'd and is down for the count, that's gotta hurt!
ReplyDelete