Sunday, June 30, 2013

RE: Uttama Sloka's (Ron Marinelli) "Realization of Your Eternal Identity" (jeeva tattva mash-up)

The Realization and Manifestation of Your Eternal Identity 

by Ron Marinelli (Uttama sloka das)

Let me state for the record that my purpose in writing this book is not to make money from book sales, which is why I have made this book freely available to all Vaisnavas. I also have no intentions of using this book as a platform to establish myself as a diksa-guru and accept disciples. Nor am I trying to surpass any acaryas and their presentations, nor to improve upon them. There is no Vaisnava aparadha, guru aparadha, or ISKCON bashing in this book. It is my sincere Vaisnava seva and guru seva.

[PADA: OK fine except, when you claim in this book that we do not originate with Krishna in His lila or sport, you are trying to surpass the commentary given by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada on this very topic. You are writing a book which confutes the statements of our acharya? Why?

You are also confusing the whole topic (jeeva tattva) of our having an original PERSONAL connection to Krishna in His lila or sport; Our having an original personal rasa or loving relationship with Krishna; And our having an original position of service to Krishna (jivera swarupa haya -- nitya Krishna das) where we originated in the spiritual kingdom. 

And you also fail to explain -- how we fell to here (as the mayavadis do as well)? Even the Christians have some better idea than yours. They at least know that Satan was once an important "leading angel" in the Kingdom of God. So we were all like that, we were all formerly important angels in the Kingdom of God, and we became envious of God, and thus fell from His Kingdom to become Satans. 

There has to be some explanation for the cause for our fall down? And the cause of our fall is, envy of God. This is explained over and over by Srila Prabhupada, we became envious of Krishna, and that is the root cause of all our suffering. How did we become envious if we were not aware of who He is? This makes no sense.   

You are confusing the whole topic of our relationship with Krishna, while advertising that you are clearing it up? How can we clear up our relationship -- if we do not know what went wrong in our relationship with Krishna? Krishna loves us, full time and all the time, so who broke down that relationship? And then the falling process explained further, from our original envy of God, we deteriorated further into lust, anger, greed, loss of intelligence, loss of discrimination and so forth. "Buddhi nasa" -- loss of intelligence. How did all this get started in the first place? You have failed to give a reasoned explanation. 

Anyway, goody for you, you are also not engaged in ISKCON bashing. OK, so does that mean you are one of the acquiesced people who has been compliant with the criminal take over of ISKCON? And were you one of those who acquiesced with the molester messiah's program? If people are going to "realize their eternal identity," the vehicle for that is supposed to be the ISKCON society. What happened to that vehicle? I am not seeing a track record of your protest of the regime that broke down ISKCON, albeit -- it may exist, but where is the paper trail of your protest of these criminals posing as ISKCON's messiahs? Please forward that to us if you have it. 

Where have you been while ISKCON has been burnt to toast and made into a criminal enterprise? How can people re-establish their link to Krishna without the ISKCON society, the very vehicle that the acharya made for the process of advancing to Krishna? You are discussing linking to Krishna. Good! Apparently however -- you forgot how that was supposed to be done? We were supposed to do that con-jointly in our guru's society, not to allow Krishna's society hi-jacked by the molester messiahs project? 

We were just interviewed for a TV show and that was one of the issues they wanted us to tell them about, how come only a few people were protesting the criminal take over? In short, where were were the "back up" people? Where were all the Uttamaslokas to help the protest? Well, apparently, our back up was too busy writing books about rasika-ness, while us devotees were being banned, beaten, molested and killed? And now the Narayan Maharaja people are printing their "Gopi Gita." Yes, after Narayana Maharaja supported the molester messiahs program, which had us banned, beat, molested and killed, these gopi-rasika people are now experts on gopi-ness? Really? The servants of the gopis are part of a support group of the criminal acharyas program, by omision or commission, as Narayana Maharaja was doing?]   


Brahmananda Puri Dasa: the cheaters fool themselves into thinking they are sincere....they are incapable of seeing the truth of their cheating desires. this applies to both cheaters and cheated.

PADA: Right, the Gaudiya Matha started the cheating guru business, and then people like Uttama Sloka went there and he decided they are higher authorities than Srila Prabhupada. So now he can challenge statements from Srila Prabhupada. ys pd

Brahmananda Puri Dasa: I'm not sure who you are referring to. Are you referring to Uttamasloka Dasa? What statements are you referring to, Tim?

Uttamasloka Dasa: Are you talking about me? I never went to anyone in the Gaudiya Matha - not Srila Narayana Maharaja nor Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja nor anyone else. Stop spreading lies. I never challenged any of Srila Prabhupada's statements in my book. I explained and validated them in their proper context related to the previous acaryas' teachings.

My book is based 100% on our Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, whose books Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to study after studying his books, which I have done.

Every assertion I've made is fully backed up by these acaryas. If you have a problem with what is written by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Ramananda Raya, Lord Caitanya, Narottama Dasa Thakur, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur or Bhaktivinoda Thakur, then that's something you'll have to come to terms with.

Mayesa Dasa Tim Lee you have misunderstood this verse. When Krsna appears on the core of heart one sees Him. He is sat-cit-ananda-so that is shared with the individual soul.

PADA: Dear Uttamasloka, ok Srila Prabhupada says we are all going "Back Home, Back to Godhead," and that we were originally in Krishna's lila or sport, you said that is not correct. That is also what the Gaudiya Matha says. And when me and Brahmananda Puri were discussing Uttamasloka's idea, I presented a whole bunch of quotes from Srila Prabhupada where he says the soul originates in Krishna's lila or sport, and he erased all of those quotes? If we are following Srila Prabhupada's ideas, why are we erasing his quotes? ys pd

Brahmananda Puri Dasa Because you are twisting them to suit your understanding, which, considering the WHOLE of Prabhupada's writings say otherwise. Well, I unblocked you to give you another chance Tim Lee, but it appears all you want to do is argue and hopefully not commit offenses against the devotees calling them names, etc. as you have done in many of your other posts.

Sila Salagram: SP Quotes:Srila Prabhupada: "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are
covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. Therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. ...Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. 

Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna."

(Part of a paper made by the GBC) "THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA", taken from an Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as "Nectar of the Month," BBT Report, January, 1982.

"We have come from the spiritual world into this material world. We have forgotten our Father. So we have to revive this relationship with our Father, or God--or Krishna." Lecture, 10.07.75

"So, there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God..." Room conversation, 9.19.73

"Yes. The conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus were with Krishna before being conditioned ...similarly, each soul has seen Krishna..." Letter to Jagadish, 2.25.70

Uttamasloka Dasa: Srila Prabhupada made many conflicting statements, so you can't just choose the one's you want and ignore the rest. That is not how we understand things properly. Plus, I did NOT say SP was incorrect. Do NOT distort my statements - that is dishonest and shows the weakness of your position. In that section of my book, I offered dozens of statements from our acaryas - not the Gaudiya Matha - whom SP represents, so we could objectively examine their statements as well. 

Their statements contradict SP, not mine.

[PADA: OK, so you admit, you are in the business of finding quotes from some source or another to contradict Srila Prabhupada's statements.]

Uttamasloka: Sila Salagram: Here are some examples from my book, along with statements by SP that contradict what you presented.

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that “no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planets, for it is the eternal abode”. SB, 3.16.26, Purport

Srila Prabhupada did make several rather conclusive statements in his purports to Sri Isopanisad, with no mention of being in the lila.

The all-pervading feature of the Lord-which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls - is known as Brahman." SI, 16


As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. SI, 17, Purport

Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 16, Jivas Possessed by Maya:

Babaji: …Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Våndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Våndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky.

Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-sakti, they are always strong.

They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called maya or not. Because they reside in the spiritual world, maya is very far away from them and does not affect them at all.

Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.

There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jivas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Maha-Visnu’s glance upon His maya-sakti. Because these jivas are situated next to maya, they perceive her wonderful workings.

Although they have all the qualities of the jivas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jiva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship (seva-vastu).

Among these unlimited jivas, those who want to enjoy maya become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha. On the other hand, the jivas who perform cid-anusilanam of Bhagavan receive spiritual sakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. JD, Chapter 16, Page 377-378

In Krsna Book, Srila Prabhupada also confirms the truth of a new beginning:

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their “first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly”. KB, Chapter 28, 6th paragraph

So it is not so cut and dried, and if you study the statements of the previous acaryas, you will not find one single confirming statement that we were with Krsna in His lila. There is absolutely no possibility of any material contamination existing in Vraja lila, so it is not possible for anyone there to become envious.

Brahmananda Puri Dasa: Also, it couldn't be any clearer than the prayer to the Spiritual Master, "I WAS BORN IN THE DARKNESS OF IGNORANCE".... can't argue with that.

PADA: OK, we all came from Krishna's lila or sport, whats to twist there? And that we do not originate there, that is the Gaudiya Matha's idea. And Srila Prabhupada says they are tinged with mayavada. Srila Prabhupada says we are GOING BACK TO HOME, Back To Godhead, ok that means -- we were once there. If I am going back to San Francisco, I was there before? Not going back home, bogus Gaudiya Matha said that, they criticized Srila Prabhupada, this Back To Godhead idea is bogus, yes, bogus Gaudiya Matha ideas. Why are we with them? 

Vidura: Uttamasloka Dasa, why do you say Srila Prabhupada made many conflicting statements? And why do you say that our previous acharyas contradict some of Srila Prabhupada's statements? These are both very offensive things to say. There are no contradictions, maybe APPARENT contradictions, but no real contradictions. 

And Srila Prabhupada cannot contradict Himself. That is not possible. He is above the three modes of material nature, and He is above the four defects. Perhaps you have not yet been able to comprehend all of the statements that Srila Prabhupada has made, or those of the previous acharyas for that matter. 

Why do you all of a sudden think that you are on the level of spiritual realization as Srila Prabhupada? A submissive student may not understand everything at the time, but the student accepts the conclusion of the spiritual master in whatever subject matter. The conclusion that Srila Prabhupada gave us regarding our original position is that "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport." (Letter to: Madhudvisa -- Los Angeles 16 May, 1972) 

And another simple but strong point made by PADA is that we are going BACK to Godhead. How can you therefore say that we were not once in Godhead? So it is easier to just accept the conclusions that Srila Prabhupada gave us instead of jumping all over the place and wasting our time and making offenses in the process.

Srila Prabhupada says:

" thing is that one should know he is in conditioned life and try to cure it. When a man is in diseased condition he should try to get out of diseased condition without harassing his brain when the disease has begun. But it is to be understood that the disease is not our constant companion, it is temporary. So the best thing is to cure the disease, and not waste our time to find out the date when it began. Forgetfulness of Krishna is the disease, so let us keep ourselves always in Krishna Consciousness, and get out of the disease, that is healthy life."

(Letter to: Aniruddha -- Los Angeles 14 November, 1968)

PADA: Uttama Sloka says: In that section of my book, I offered dozens of statements from our acaryas - not the Gaudiya Matha - whom SP represents, so we could objectively examine their statements as well. Their statements contradict SP, not mine. 

[PD: So you are saying you are finding quotes to contradict the acharya? Writing a book with the purpose of contradicting what Srila Prabhupada says? That is what I thought you were saying. Srila Prabhupada said, we need to listen to the current acharya. You are finding "scholarly writings" to defeat Srila Prabhupada? Thats what Nitai was doing. 

The Gaudiya Matha objected to the BACK TO GODHEAD idea of Srila Prabhupada, and so does Uttama das. Thats what I said at the start of all this, he is influenced by the Gaudiya Matha. And Srila Prabhupada said they do not believe in his Back To God idea because they are COVERT MAYAVADIS, they are "tinged with mayavada," that is what he told us in India. Good job Vidura, you are correct, this is an offense. ys pd]


PADA: Incidently, the Gaudiya Matha's Jaiva Dharam is one of the books we were told not to read because it was "edited after 1936 by my devious God brothers." Yep, bogus Gaudiya Matha ki jaya! ys pd

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