Friday, April 19, 2013

BV Narayan Maharaja is a mayavadi (update)

PADA: There are some God brothers and associates of Srila Prabhupada who never  agreed with his idea -- that us jiva souls were -- originally -- in the SPIRITUAL WORLD and we fell down from the spiritual world -- to this mundane world. However, the idea that we "originally fell from the spiritual platform," is found all over Srila Prabhupada's writings and teachings. In fact that is the title of his flagship magazine "Back To Godhead," ... i.e. we have to GO BACK to our "original constitutional position" as Krishna's servants.

Yet people like BV Narayana Maharaja, BR Sridhara Maharaja, Gaura Govinda maharaja, BV Tripurari swami, and their dedicated followers like Uttama sloka prabhu and others think -- they have a better idea than Srila Prabhupada's. Their idea is -- that we originated somewhere else, for example BR Sridhara Maharaja says we originated in the brahmajyoti, therefore we have an impersonal origin. 

Hence BR Sridhara's followers like BV Tripurari swami  asked our associate "are you a brahmajyoti devotee"? (Do you agree with BR Sridhara that we came from the impersonal brahman?) Whereas Narayan Maharaja says we originated in the tatastha region, which is not a place or region at all. Rather tatastha describes how the souls can move from one region to another. We originated in -- moving? This does not even make sense from a grammatical point of view? We came from -- moving? These people lack even common sense? 

None of this was ever the idea of Srila Prabhupada, who commonly says -- that we have to return home back to Godhead (return home, back to home, back to Godhead etc. means -- we were once there). We also have to revive our dormant Krishna consciousness; That we have to remember our original relationship with Krishna (that was existing previously etc.); We have lost our connection to Krishna due to envy of Him (how could we become envious of God if we never knew who He was?) and so on and so forth. There are hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes that he made in this regard. Here is merely one of many similar examples:  

Srila Prabhupada, Bombay, January 1, 1975: ... originally we are all pure, Krishna conscious, but as we have got little independence -- because we are part and parcel of God, therefore -- God has got full independence -- so we have got independence according to the quantity. 

[PADA: There are many such citations, originally we are all pure and Krishna conscious beings,  in sum -- "originally" -- we are ALL serving Krishna in Vaikuntha, and so on and so forth. How can we be "conscious of Krishna," and indeed be serving Him, if we are not with Him directly? Srila Prabhupada also describes our original spiritual position (svarupa) as "nitya Krishna das." The idea of Srila Prabhupada is very clear, we were originally serving Krishna, and then we became envious of Krishna, and then -- we fell down to this mundane platform. The only factor that Narayana Maharaja identifies in our origin is that -- we were moving at our origin. Moving -- where?  

There is a further elaboration of these events by Srila Prabhupada, that just AFTER the living entities fall from their spiritual existence in the spiritual world, they first of all become demigods like Lord Brahma, and then they continue in a downward spiral to lower and lower species from there. The idea is: that we are still semi-pure when we originally fall, but as we become more and more entangled in the material existence, we become more contaminated into lower and lower births. Therefore, (a) we started out having a fully pure spiritual position, (b) we fell into a semi-pure state, and then (c) we degraded further as we entangled more and more into the material world. Therefore (d) we have to revive our original pure and spiritual condition.  

Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, our material contamination means that, when we desire to live without Krishna consciousness: “Why we shall be subservient to Krishna? We shall live independently."  That is going on.

[PADA: Notice, we were first of all serving Krishna in Vaikuntha, and then we decided to become independent. We MIS-USED our idependence. We were with Krishna and we decided to become INDEPENDENT of Him. We were living in a subservient position to God, as His servants. And THEN we decided to live independently. This is of course what happens in the material world when a married couple divorces, one party leaves and lives independent of the other. This is the same concept of: "living together" then "living independent." That means we did not originate in the tatastha region (which does not exist at all anyway), rather we originated in a post as Krishna's servants -- with Him. We were with Krishna and then we decided to be independent of Him.]

Srila Prabhupada: Material life means everyone is trying to become victorious in the struggle of existence without God consciousness. That is our material disease. Krishna-bahirmukha hasa bhoga vascha kare. We may revolt. That independence we have got, little independence, and we can misuse it, that "Why shall I serve Krishna? Let me serve myself." "Let me serve myself" means, "Let me serve my different propensities, kama, krodha, lobha, moha, matsarya," like that. My independence means "I will not serve God; I will serve my lusty desires." You cannot become independent.

This is a concoction only, that "I will not serve Krishna." But you have to serve. What is that? "Then I serve my lusty desires." Indriya-trpti, indriya-trpti. Yad indriya-pritaye. Simply to satisfy … Krishna consciousness means there is no such thing as indriya-trpti, or sense gratification. Everything for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Hrsika means the indriya, or the senses.

[PADA: Notice, we were serving but we decided "I shall not serve." The means we were serving and we gave up our service. We decided to serve ourselves (i.e. our own lusty desires). We also turned our face away from Krishna -- bahirmukha. How could we turn away our face away from Krishna -- if we were not there with Him?]

Narayana Maharaja is criticizing Srila Prabhupada, who says, we ALL originated in Krishna's lila or sport. NM said "no vaishnava will ever say that." That means NM does not even think Srila Prabhupada is a vaishnava? He is insulting the acharya. Srila Prabhupada told us NOT to read the Gaudiya Matha's version of "Jaiva Dharma" because it was re-edited by his God brothers after 1936, he said it is not authorized. 

He also said his God brothers are tinged with mayavada, so they have the idea we come from brahman and not Krishna's lila or sport. NM's clan are not answering any of these points, and neither could NM, so he left me sitting for 10 hours without seeing me, he has no answer. And now there is a woman groping fool posing as an acharya in their group, and nothing is being done, and we posted the letters from their groups' leaders in this regard on our blog. They are doing what the GBC gurus are doing, making debauchees into their messiahs. 

Notice in the video below that Jadurani is confused, she says we have to follow NM's idea that we do not originate with Krishna, at the same time, we need to try to "go back to God" (return home to where we came from). She is contradicting herself:

Srila Prabhupada says we come from "Krishna's lila or sport." But here we find people like Jadurani and Narayana Maharaja saying that these statements from Srila Prabhupada are bogus. Narayana Maharaja says we originated in "Tatastha sakti." Tatastha is not a place, it is a definition of how the jivas can move from one place to another.

NM says we started in the middle (brahmajyoti), and they can go to Krishna or Maya from there. This is bogus, we are with Krishna and we chose to defy His authority. Srila Prabhupada says we BECAME ENVIOUS of Krishna, and we fell. Narayana Maharaja says we came from brahman, because he is a mayavada. NM also has no explanation for how we fell here? How could the people who do not know who Krishna is, reject Him?]

We do not come from Goloka Vrindavan (11/13)

S Dasi: PADA your interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's words is false, anyone can (and has) used scripture in any which twisted way, for even the killing of animals. That you misinterpret having no submission to living spiritual guidance, is very understandable. There is nowhere where Srila Prabhupada states that we ALL (that is every single living entity in existence), come falling down from Sri Krishna's Lila pastimes in the spiritual world - the place from whence no-one ever falls - which are Sri Krishna's words of total assurance in Srimad Bhagavad Gita. 

[PADA: You are not quoting what Srila Prabhupada said? He said only those in the material world fell, not that all beings have fallen? Yes, after we return we do not generally fall back here again. Srila Prahbupada says we will have some faint recollection of being in the material world after we go back home, like having our hand burnt in a fire, so we will generally not come back here. So yes, after we return most likely we will very likely never come back here, this is all explained by Srila Prabhupada. You are avoiding his detailed instruction on this matter. NM has avoided the point that we originated in the lila or sport.] 

S Dasi: Of course you are the first to say that Maya is more attractive and stronger to draw living entities away from Sri Krishna. 

[PADA: Srila Prabhupada said that we become envious and fall. You are attacking his statements. NM has avoided the point that we originated in the lila or sport.

S Dasi: People like yourself also blasphemed my own Srila Gurudeva's love of the Bhagavad Gita - ie until his Bhagavad Gita was published and the truth could not be denied. Rather than criticising, Srila Narayana Maharaja was praising Srila Prabhupada with these words, but you like a small ignorant child have missed that, as all of our acaryas are saying the same thing, that the jivas who come into the material worlds appear from Tatastha region. 

You love to assign others as critical by your twisting and juxtaposing others words and their moods expressed through them, but, this does not alter the truth and this is obviously something that doesn't concern you due to extreme prejudices you have preconcieved, planted as seeds, watered as weeds, and grown fruits so bitter they cannot be eaten. These Weeds appear so so thick and strong that not even the Absolute Truth coming from the lotus lips of a bona fide spiritual master can penetrate nor cut them.

[PADA: Narayan Maharaja is the person who says that SRILA PRABHUPADA'S idea that we originated in "Krishna's lila or sport" is something that would not be said by any vaishnava. NM clearly says, Srila Prabhupad is not even a vaishnava? Sorry, that is what NM says. This is not praise? That is a direct attack on the pure devotee. NM has avoided the point that we originated in the lila or sport.]

S Dasi: the tatastha region is both the viraj river and a state of consciousness that we have never crossed, otherwise we would be permanently situated on the other side 'never to have to take birth in these material worlds again. Yes we can move from one to the other and in fact by one moments Honest association with a pure devotee of the Lord. Hare Krishna. Only the pure devotees of Sri Krishna are able to move at will in all the regions, those such as Narada Muni. They can even come down from the uttama adhikari state to the madhyama to preach!

[PADA: Srila Prabhupada states from the Bhagavatam, 2.3.19 in Los Angeles, June 15, 1972: "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha PLANET. He is fallen in this material world and he again trying to make progress."
 NM has avoided the point that we originated in the lila or sport. He is defying the acharya.]

Also consider:

Disciple: When the souls that were never conditioned at all…do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused.
Disciple: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupada: Yes they can misuse it also. That power is there.
Disciple: Well I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No there is a possibility.

(from a conversation after a lecture on Caitanya-caritamrita in San Francisco on February 18, 1967)

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.14.25:

Yathagnina hema malam jahati / Dhatam punah svam bhajate carupam
Atma ca karmanusayam vidhuya / Mad bhakti bhajaty yogena atho mam

"Just as gold, when smelted in fire, gives up its impurities and returns to its pure brilliant state, similarly, the spirit soul, absorbed in the fire of bhakti yoga, is purified of all contamination caused by previous fruitive activities and returns to its original position of serving Me in the spiritual world."

Srila Prabhupada - "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity" Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

SRILA PRABHUPADA: "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. Therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned . . . Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna." THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA?

Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada (Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982.) 

[PADA: There you also go again saying there is a tatastha "region." Sorry, the word tatastha means that the souls can move from the spiritual world to the material world and vice verse, its not a place, its a means of describing how we can move from one region to the other. We jiva souls are a place called tatastha? No, we are the souls who can move, we are not "a place." At all? The word tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. 

One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land. -- This means we can move from one world to the other, the banks of a river can move, and so can we, its not "a place," its a description of how we souls can move from one world to the other world, just like the banks of a river can move. In any case, Srila Prabhupada says we are going to "return home back to Godhead," return means -- we were once there. Srila Prabhupada says we fell from Vaikuntha, and now we have to return home, that is what he says. NM has no authority to challenge the acharya. Once again you are defying the statement of the acharya, he says we were formerly with Krishna in His lia or sport. For you to say that the tatatstha region (which does not even exist) is the lila or sport origin means, you do not even know what is the lila or sport? You are trying to say the Vaikuntha planets from where we originated is impersonal, this is called mayavada.] 

Srila Prabhupada: ". . . so the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there." Letter to Rayarama, 12.2.68

"So, there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God . . ." Room conversation, 9.19.73

"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

"When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

"When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord." Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.37

"Yes. The conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus were with Krishna before being conditioned . . . similarly, each soul has seen Krishna . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 2.25.70

"We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ." Address to large audience -- Srila Prabhupada on the Hare Krishna album.

"Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

[PADA: The relationship HAS TO BE REVIVED, it was existing previously.]

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

[PADA: OK I think by now you get the point, Srila Prabhupada is saying we were with Krishna and we became envious and that is how we have fallen. That is also the reason we fell. NM says this idea is not right, that means, he is defying the acharya. ys pd]

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

[PADA: Srila Prabhupada does says when we go back we generally do not return to here again "like a person who has burnt his hand in a fire wants to avoid fire." However, that is after we return. And now, since we agree with the acharya, NM says we are not even vaishnavas? That means he is not only attacking the acharya, he is attacking anyone who follows the acharya. He is mass attacking tens of thousands of devotees. This is very grevious! ys pd]

S Dasi SB 5.11.12 PURPORT "This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they NEVER fall into the material world.'

[PADA: You are taking a quote out of the context of other quotes.]

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation.'

[PADA: OK except, you are taking a few quotes out of the context of the quotes we cited, nor have you even explained the quotes we cited.]

S Dasi: Krishna Book, Chapter 28: Releasing Nanda Maharaja from the clutches of Varuna (p. 186)
'The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly.'

[PADA: Right, after being in the material world for billions of years, we have to be re-trained to associate with Krishna, and so we are going to see Him when He appears in the material world as our training. That will be the first time we see Him in a long time. This means you are ignoring the other citations. You are taking a quote out of the context of the other quotes.]   

SB 7.1.35 TRANSLATION "The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses, or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend."

[PADA: OK, so some of the living entities in the spiritual world were cursed to come here, that means people there can come here. Correct. You said that is not possible. Now you are contradicting yourself.] 

S. Dasi: Poor mundane PADA sees a mundane world in a mundane way, every which way you turn they are sooo mundane but you are the only one following everything properly and above question ie until I see with your mundane deficiency till then I cannot have a leg to stand on. And your speculations as to the standards of etiquette of muslim jewish and Christian meat-eaters is another of your whitewash or should I say black wash statements that still do not truly give the reasons you were ignored. Maybe this aggressive preconcieved offensiveness is the reason you find yourself floundering around without any faith that there is anyone higher than you on this planet at this moment.

[PADA: OK, so now you are saying your idea, that we originated in "moving" is the spiritual idea, whereas Srila Prabhupada's idea is the mundane idea. I am quoting Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja and his followers are saying the direct words of the acharya are "mundane meat eating Muslim, Jewish and Christian ideas." No, the idea that we did not have association with God, which is Narayan Maharaja's idea, is the same as the Christian, Muslim, Jewish idea. The jiva souls think we sort of landed here, we did not have previous association with God. Narayan Maharaja is preaching the Christian, Jewish, Muslim idea, of course his idea that we orignated in "moving" is laughable even to mundane religions.]

S Dasi: Tim, it appears you have some kind of a personality disorder that causes you to get a lot of energy from just plain hating people, it is offensive to hate any living entity for all are part and parcel of Krishna. That you seem to thrive on controversy with bad feelings to to the enth of hate in your being, so they come your way naturally. I just thank Sri Hari Guru and vaisnavas that I do not hate any other vaisnavas who spend their lives chanting Hare Krishna. It is sad how you reveal such misgivings that I thought only materialists felt about others due to the grossest kind of bodily conception producing the fool who reveals himself by his own words to be so asslike as to form prejudices against every single person who chooses to do things a little differently to their own concocted idea in a conception of what they think is The Absolute Truth.
[PADA: You and Jadurani and friends are spending your entire life trying to "prove" that Srila Prabhupada's jiva tattva is bogus.]

S. Dasi: PURPORT: The Hari-bhakti-vilasa cites the following quotation from Skanda Purana concerning the blaspheming of a Vaisnava:

In this conversation between Markandeya and Bhagiratha, it is said: "My dear King, if one derides an exalted devotee, he loses the results of his pious activities, his opulence, his reputation and his sons. Vaisnavas are all great souls. Whoever blasphemes them falls down to the hell known as Maharaurava. He is also accompanied by his forefathers. Whoever kills or blasphemes a Vaisnava and whoever is envious of a Vaisnava or angry with him, or whoever does not offer him obeisances or feel joy upon seeing a Vaisnava, certainly falls into a hellish condition."

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (10.314) also gives the following quotation from Dvaraka-mahatmya:

In a conversation between Prahlada Maharaja and Bali Maharaja, it is said, "Those sinful people who blaspheme Vaisnavas, who are all great souls, are subjected very severely to the punishment offered by Yamaraja."

In the Bhakti-sandarbha (313) there is a statement concerning the blaspheming of Lord Visnu.
"One who criticizes Lord Visnu and His devotees loses all the benefits accrued in a hundred pious births. Such a person rots in the Kumbhipaka hell and is bitten by worms as long as the sun and moon exist. One should
therefore not even see the face of a person who blasphemes Lord Visnu and His devotees. Never try to associate with such persons."

[PADA: Great, this is how Narayan Maharaja gets people killed, we have to disagree with Srila Prabhupada or we are offenders. This is how NM helped the GBC get people killed. And now one of his own sannyasas says he is in fear of violence because another NM program sannyasa is falling, and he might get beaten for exposing that. NM is creating violent cults with his type of preaching. 

S Dasi: Actually it is simple for the simple ones: if the living entities were coming from Krishna's abode then Krishna in Bhagavad gita 8-16 would have said: "but one who RETURNS to my abode will not take birth again" but He says "but one who ATTAINS my abode"

[PADA: OK so now you are saying the whole idea of BACK TO GODHEAD is bogus. You also said previously that the lila or sport might refer to the material world, since this is also Krishna's lila or sport, that is exactly the philosophy of the Mayavadas. In addition, you are saying some souls start out with Krishna -- and some do not because Krishna is biased against some souls (this is the same as the Christians who say some souls start out in heaven -- and are there with God all along -- and some of us "inferior souls" are put here by God's un-equal justice). In other words, God has un-equal justice. 

He gives some souls a free pass and others have to suffer to get their pass, if they get one at all. This means you think God is mundane and He pre-selects some of His children for the kingdom of heaven, while others are pre-selected for the kingdom of hell. In other words, you have the same identical problems the mayavada siddhanta has had all along, they cannot explain why some would have to fall and suffer. 

In any case, you have not explained things from the Vaishnava viewpoint? The Vaishnavas say that being in Krishna's lila or sport is -- being with Krishna direct, in His lila or sport means being with Him in the spiritual world. They do not consider (as the mayavadis do) that the material world is the Lila and sport of God, rather the Vaishnavas say -- those who are saying the material world is the Lila or sport of God are in severe illusion. And this begs questions like, why would God make His own Lila a Lila one of suffering and death? 

This is all the more proof that you folks are mayavadas, you do not even understand what is the Lila of the Lord. Srila Prabhupada says after we return its still possible we could come back here because we always have free will, although its unlikely because we will have some faint recollection of being in the material fire, so it is not likely we will be re-attracted. However, we will always have free will. You are also trying to strip away the "free will" element of the living entities and make us into robot zombies, basically saying all the residents of the spiritual world have no free will, they stay there forever because they cannot chose otherwise, its a mechanical arrangement, in other words, you have not understood, what to speak of explained, any or all of these matters at all.]

Notice that Narayana Maharaja calls the worst deviants of the Gaudiya Matha "Prabhupada," but he still refuses to call AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada with that title. He still calls our Prabhupada "swami mahararaja." NM was one of the people who attacked Srila Prabhupada for using the Prabhupada title in 1971. And notice that Tamal Krishna swami, the founder father and leader of introducing the Narayana Maharaja program into ISKCON, is not objecting to this serious aparadha, rather he is saying this is "most important work." ys pd

Srila BV Narayan Maharaja defends our parampara during a meeting with ISKCON GBC P1
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  1. The tiny jiva (or spirit soul) is the servant of God eternally, whether in mundane consciousness or spiritual consciousness. Spiritual existence as well as material existence are both generated from His Own individual existence. By the deployment of these energies a myriad of purposes are accomplished, which suitably accomodate, in turn, His sweet and unfathomable will. This transcendentally playful demeanor certainly and unequivocally involves the ultimate benediction to all living entities, either liberated or conditioned. Hence, it is only due to His deluding energy that one differentiates between the two. My humble obeisances to all. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Sri-Sri Gaura-Nitai! Hare Krsna!

  2. don`t be so simplistic; srila jiva goswami in his sat sandarba is also stating that we did not fall from spiritual world, and so is Bhaktivinode Takur in Jaiva dharma, and Srila Prabhupada did say both that we did and did not`t fall from goloka/vaikunta

  3. OK, so when Srila Prabhupada says, we all originated in Krishna's lila or sport, that is too simple for Narayana Maharaja to comprehend? He has no idea what is being discussed? Srila Prabhupada told us not to read the Gaudiya Matha's "Jaiva Dharma" because it was edited after 1936. Anyway, you are saying that you are so simple, you do not know what is Krishna or His lila and sport? Well even my children knew what that was when they were five years old? How come you cannot figure this out? Krishna and His lila -- and His lila and sport is something, you folks cannot comprehend? Why not? ys pd

    1. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

      Well here Srila Prabhupada conclude that we did not fall...and for your pleasure if you read ISKCON translation of Jaiva Dharma that is available on SP folio, it also states that we did not fall from the spiritual word....

      ...hence things are not as black and white (simplistic) as you would like to portrait the issue...

  4. OK apparently you are saying, when Srila Prabhupada says, we all originated in Krishna's lila or sport, Narayan Maharaja is baffled, NM has no idea what that means? You seem to be saying, either NM has no idea who is Krishna or what is His lila or sport? Or what is you point here? ISKCON translated some materials, and ISKCON leaders were also the entity that promoted Sridhar and Narayan Maharajas and their bogus jiva tattva from 1978-1993. Of course the same ISKCON leaders were working with Narayan Maharaja to promote deviants as acharyas, hence none of these people are reliable.

    That ISKCON leaders translated something proves nothing, except that ISKCON leaders are responsible for bringing all this bogus jiva tattva in, and entering into the movement. You keep avoiding the point, do you have any idea who is Krishna and what is His lila or sport, or not?

    And why doesn't Sridhara, Narayan, Tripurari, Gaura Govinda and other swamis know what that means either?

    We do know what that means, Krishna has a lila or sport, and we were originally in that lila or sport, and we fell from that place, because we became envious of Krishna.

    Srila Prabhupada says mayavada still have some envy of Krishna, and that the idea we did not originate with Krishna is mayavada, therefore, these swamis have still some tinge of envy because they are preaching mayavada. What is not black and white about this? ys pd

  5. No i`m saying that SP said both (that we did, and that we did not fall from the spiritual word) and all the previous acharyas says that we did not fall form the spiritual world.

    Yet it seems that you cannot see that....hence i said that your view on this matter is simplistic. (because your unwillingness to accept that SP said both things) Why did he? just for fun, or did he made the mistake,...oh wait the minute, it wasnt SP, it was those devious editors...

    Yet here i provide SP statement form SB whereas he says that the CONCLUSION IS;

    The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

    and if you are not willing to accept SP Conclusion, than what is the difference between you and the GBC when they claim that Henceforward does not really mean henceforward....

  6. Here is what Srila Prabhupada says, after we fall to this world and suffer -- we learn something from that. We will have some vague memory of this material world, like a person who one time burned his hand in the fire.

    So when that person sees fire again, he avoids it. So yes, FIRST we leave the spiritual world, and THEN come here, and THEN (hopefully) we become pure and "return home," THEN we generally do not come back here, because we have learned something from the experience.

    So everything is explained step by step, we fall from there, but after we return, we generally do not fall back here again. So yes, the conclusion is, we fall from there, but after we return, we generally do not come back to this world. Yes, so all the quotes need to be taken together, not cherry picking one or two out of context.

    As the NM people do.

    Narayan Maharaja also says we originate in the tatastha region, but that is not described by Srila Prabhupada anywhere.

    As for henceforward, yes we have to worship a pure devotee henceforward, and for all the time thereafter, eternally. This was another problem with NM, he said we have to cooperate with the 11 gurus, and he became their shiksha guru, rasika advisor etc. He thought Tamal was a guru and "Radha's dear Tamal tree." Really? So all these matters are quite simple, as Srila Prabhupada says, its simple for the simple and complicated for -- the crooked. The GBC for their part printed a paper with many quotes from Srila Prabhupada showing that NM's jiva tattva was wrong, but they forgot to explain, why they made NM their shiksha guru, advisor, and rasika acharya etc? So the GBC are not reliable people to quote. I agree. ys pd

  7. Incidently, Srila Prabhupada said this jiva tattva and other things were never understood by his God brothers because they are "tinged with mayavada." They almost all had this contamination, of course this is why they made bogus acharyas, they had no understanding of guru tattva either, ys pd

  8. SP said both things, however...

    "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)"

  9. That is why you have to look at all the quotes he gave on this matter. You cannot take one quote out of the context of thousands of others. Basically NM is preaching the Christian, Muslim, Jewish idea, the souls sort of land here, no reasonable explanation is given for how that happens. And to say we were not with Krishna is impersonal, Krishna is a person and we are also persons, and so we start out together, as persons. To deny the personal relationship we have with Krishna is called mayavada. NM's idea is that some souls are special, they get a free pass to stay in heaven, some souls do not, therefore God is biased against some souls, this is exactly the Christian idea. This is not a very advanced concept. You are not explaining any of these points either, you are presenting no reasonable explanation whatsoever. That is also what the Christians are doing. You have to advance past that limited concept if you want to have a clear idea of Krishna, and your relationship with Him. ys pd

  10. Bhaktivinode Takur explains nicely, that they are 3 types of jivas; one that manifests from Balarama (they go to Goloka) one that manifests from Shanakrasana (they enter into Vaikunta) and the ones that comes from Mahavishu, those jivas see the both words spiritual and material words and they choose where they want to go. hence the ones that chose the material words never fell from vaikunta...

    "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)"

  11. Almost all of India is mayavada, so of course they almost all have this idea we came from the bramajyoti, and the bramajyoti is where we shall return. Some say that Srila Prabhupada gave us the idea we came from Krsnaloka in order to encourage us even. But I don't see why he would have to do that. In either case he said not to spend time thinking about how or when we fell down, we should spend our time getting out of the material world.

  12. Srila Prabhupada told us not to read the Gaudiya Matha's editions of Bhaktivinode's writings, he said they were bogus-ly edited after 1936.

    He also said many of his God brothers are tinged with Mayavada, so they think we came from brahman or some form of impersonal origins.

    He also forbade us from reading any of these Gaudiya Matha books.

    He also said, whatever you want to learn about the past acharyas, you learn from me.

    He also said reading these books would cause confusion.

    In any case, we are not getting any clear answer to our original question, that Srila Prabhupada says we all originated with Krishna in His lila or sport?

    Where is the direct explanation of this from NM?

    We do not find NM or his people giving any reasonable explanation for these types of statements. As for NM's idea that some elite class of souls started off already in Vaikuntha, so they got a free pass and keys to the Kingdom of God, whereas others were prejudiced against -- (because God is not a just and equal God) and so they never there, this is called bias and injustice.

    God is by definition equal to all. Thus He does not pre-select and give the keys to His kingdom to this alleged elite class, while allowing another pre-selected class of souls to be in a state where its likely they will be falling.

    In sum, Narayan Maharaja is preaching that God is a biased, prejudiced, elitist, because He pre-selects some elite souls for heaven and some "lesser souls" for great possibility of going to hell, NM is basically saying -- God is a prejudiced elitist. That makes no sense? That is against all religious teachings everywhere ... ys pd

  13. what i find funny is how you use the exact same excuse for not accepting SP`s conclusion on this matter, just as the GBC is when it comes to Henceforward.

    You wrote;

    "That is why you have to look at all the quotes he gave on this matter. You cannot take one quote out of the context of thousands of others."

    ...and that is exactly GBC`s rationale for having their Guru system. Because SP said in soo many places that he wants them to become gurus.(and nowhere else about rittvic) besides the july 9...

    As with the GBC and (Henceforward) you too refuse to accept SP`s (Conclusion) just because it does not fit your preconception on this matter.

    "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)"

  14. SP did instruct us that we should read Jaiva Dharma and Brihad Bhagavatamrita, if you are so paranoid that all editions are bogus.
    e.g Kushakrata`s, Kesidamana/Sarvabhavana, gaudiya math translation, take the original text from JD on Jeeva Tattva and translate it with the people you trust and believe me the result will be the above quoted-three types of jivas...

  15. No Srila Prabhupada specifically told us that the Gaudiya Matha's Jaiva Dharma was not authorized. We never read this book while he was present for this reason, he in fact forbid ALL the Gaudiya Matha's books from his program. Ask anyone, were the Gaudiya Matha books in general, and their Jaiva Dharma in particular, ever circulated under Srila Prabhupada's authority? The answer is no, I know because I heard Srila Prabhupada saying that personally.

    All translation has to be done by a pure devotee, that is another point, and Srila Prabhupada did not consider any of these others as pure devotees.

    As for the GBC gurus mis-citing things, yes, and their mis-citing was also supported by the Gaudiya Matha folks like NM, the GBC were supported as gurus by mis-citing documents, and the Gaudiya Matha folks agreed to this mis-citing, because these folks did not study all the quotes from Srila Prabhupada.

    You are also not answering the original question once again, if we all originated in Krishna's lila or sport, why don't you know what that is? Why are you trying to target another origin? What is the purpose of defying Srila Prabhupada on this issue? And why did the Gaudiya Matha defy their guru and make false gurus? And why did they say the ritvik order was also bogus and "not found in shastra," so they promoted debauchees as acharyas in post-1936 and post-1977? They keep saying the jiva issue and the guru issue promoted by Srila Prabhupada is no in shastra, and the result is that they promoted fools as acharyas, and they seem to have a sort of Christian idea about the origin of the soul, which is not found in Srila Prabhupada's teachings? And how did you guess, Sridhara maharaja's idea of GBC "annual guru voting" is -- like the Vatican's voting for the Pope idea?

    So that is the problem, you folks know the shastra, except, the first point of shastra is, you are not allowed to challenge the statements of the acharya, and Srila Prabhupada is the acharya, and he certainly is for us the Western World, we never would have heard about the Gaudiya Matha without him. Yes, the GBC said we are gurus hencforward and some folks from the Gaudiya Math backed that because, none of them read all the citations. ys pd

  16. In any case, you have failed to explain why the Gaudiya Matha does not understand jiva tattva -- that ALL the jivas have a personal origin with Krishna, not just a pre-ordained and pre-selected elite few who are with Him -- and all the rest of us are not chosen to be with Him (aka the chosen ones); Nor have you explained why the Gaudiya Matha since 1936 promotes deviants and fools as acharyas, apparently because, they have never understood guru tattva either. Nor does it make sense that I would "find a translator" to defy the direct statements of my guru. This also makes no sense. Nor does the idea we did not originate with Krishna (the Christian idea that some souls are destined to come here) makes any sense either ... nor have you given and rational explanation for any of this. ys pd


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