NT: The jiva is always with Krsna in love. This is the Reality. An Eternal Reality. Anything else is simply insignificant temporary and illusionary. From the knowledge of that sambandha tattva, we have learned that the jiva, having forgotten his eternal relation with Krsna, has fallen in to the sea of samsara . . .". -Sri Caitanya-siksamrtam, p.43.
Even in his unalloyed spiritual state, the jiva is infinitesimal. He is liable to undergo change of condition . . . The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the jiva's loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krsna". - Jaiva Dharma, Chapter One
"In his true nature, the jiva is the devoted servant of Krsna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs -- due to their seeking after their own pleasure--turned away from Krsna and, as such, became punishable". - Jaiva Dharma.
"Jiva is the proprietor of an eternal identity that is extremely esoteric and subtle". - Jaiva Dharma.
"This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant." -- Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.
PT Dasa: When these topics came while Srila Prabhupada was personally present with us he said the discussion is like crow and Tal fruit. Some say the Tal fruit fell by the crow landing on the branch, and others say the fruit was just about to fall the same exact moment the crow landed. This kind of discussion can go on eternally and I have personally seen at least for 40 yrs
PADA: That is why we have to stick with what Srila Prabhupada said: a) We were all originally in Krishna's leela or sport; b) We became envious of Krishna c) Thus we fell to the material world, d) We have to re-establish our lost connection to Krishna and GO BACK HOME to our original constitutional position, e) The God brothers who challenged this idea are tinged with Mayavada. Nuff said! That solves the whole issue. ys pd
V Dasa Right. The discussion is like crow and tal. But it shouldn't be like that amongst devotees who actually accept what Srila Prabhupada said. GM people claim they are Prabhupada's successors. Then why do they disagree with him? This is why we are having the discussion too. Because at this point, its about accepting Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and THAT is not like crow and tal talk.
CP Das: WHAT DOES IT SAY? Srila Prabhupada About the IMPORTANCE OF THE ISSUE OF THE ORIGINAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY? IT IS NOT IMPORTANT OR IT IS VERY IMPORTANT? "- FROM THE STATUS OF PURE CONSCIOUSNESS, - THE FALSE EGO IS BORN - BECAUSE OF MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE. - WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT WHY FALSE EGO ARISES FROM PURE CONSCIOUSNESS."
SB 3.26.23-24, Purport.
-THE LIVING ENTITY EXIST IN THE NATURAL STATE OF KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS,
-THE LIVING ENTITY EXIST IN THE NATURAL STATE OF KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS,
-BUT HE HAS MARGINAL INDEPENDENCE, AND THIS ALLOWS HIM TO FORGET KRSNA.
U Dasa: What a bunch of speculation... of course there is a conclusion. And it can easily be proven by sastra. Just that you don't want to listen. Just read Jaiva-dharma.
PADA: Srila Prabhupada told us not to read the Gaudiya Matha's version of the Jaiva Dharma, he said it had been edited by his bogus God brothers after 1936. Why does U dasa always do -- the exact opposite -- of what the acharya orders? Srila Prabhupada said that the God brothers did not agree with his back to Godhead idea, and these are probably the same brothers who edited these books. Srila Prabhupada said, they are tinged with mayavada for not understanding we were all with Krishna originally. The conclusion is simple, do not read books that were edited by persons tinged with mayavada!
Srila Prabhupada thus did not allow the Gaudiya Matha's version of Jaiva Dharma to be distributed in his ISKCON, nor did he ever say "here is the authorized version," rather he said we need to hear from him to understand all these issues. Nor has U Dasa shown us a quote where an authorized version has been approved by Srila Prabhupada. Nor has he shown us how God creates two tiered system of some souls starting with Krishna and some not, the Vatican's jeeva tattva. ys pd
PT Dasa: Very near Srila Prabhupadas last days with us in Vrindaban His Divine Grace expressed "I have given you everything,everything I have placed in my books there is no need for you to separately study the writings of Srila Bhaktiviode or Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana all their important conclusions I have placed in my books. " I am quoting Srila Prabhupada as I heard him say so far I have never heard any recording of this but I assure you all it was recorded
PADA: Srila Prabhupada specifically said the Gaudiya Matha version of Jaiva dharama is spurious. He told us not to distribute this version in his movement. And none of this explains how we all originated in Krishna's leela or sport? Nor does U dasa explain why he is saying some souls originate with Krishna and some do not, Vatican idea? Nor does he show us where his version of Jaiva dharma was approved by Srila Prabhupada?
U Dasa also seems to agree with us? -- Having forgotten our devotion and service to Sri Krsna, we are held as the captives of maya, and thus, in lieu of our original transcendental status, we are in this miserable situation." Right, having forgotten we were with Krishna, good, that is what we said the whole time.
This is making some sense now, U Dasa is saying we all forgot our service to Sri Krishna, so if we forgot, we were once doing that service to Krishna. We are not taking this out of context, forgetting our service is only possible if we were once engaged in it. I cannot remember being in San Francisco, if I was never there?
U Dasa is arguing with his own shadow? He just said we forgot our original devotion and service to Krishna. How can we forget something that never existed? If I forget where my car is parked, that means, it never existed? To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada – “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada – ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee – “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada – “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning we are forever fresh and youthful in our nitya-siddha body.
Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!
This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
U Dasa says we all forgot our service to Krishna. How can we forget our service and devotion to Krishna, if it never existed? This is not making any sense even from logical point of view, he is fighting his own shadow? Anyway, we cannot rely on your version of Jaiva dharma because it was never approved by Srila Prabhupada. What we can rely on is, we all originated in Krishna's leela or sport, its that simple. ys pd
NT Dasa Even in his unalloyed spiritual state, the jiva is infinitesimal. He is liable to undergo change of condition . . . The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the jiva's loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krsna". - Jaiva Dharma
C Dasa: Does U dasa follow BV Puri?
NT Dasa: This is what I mean. Utilises, has to uphold the no-fall position because his GM Gurus say so. Otherwise, their Gurus would be revealed as ordinary people who make mistakes. It's all politics.
Actually,Srila Prabhupada reveals them as ordinary persons with 4 defects who are contaminated with this impersonal misinterpretation. Utilises,you yourself are selectively quoting The Thakur words in JD.
Utilises,the point is that you have a cognitive bias and are not viewing the issue objectively free from that GM bias. You understand prabhu?
C Dasa: Of course one must first be clear about THE ONLY MEANING OF THE VERB RETURN according to the dictionary, and not imagine any different meaning to the dictionary meaning.
PADA: BV Puri was a big cheer leader of Gopal Krishna swami and the GBC's guru program, along with other supporters from the Gaudiya Matha like Sridhara Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada said, among my God brothers no one is qualified to be acharya. Anyway, as we said earlier, Srila Prabhupada said their idea that we do not originate with Krishna is tinged with mayavada.
And their idea that conditioned souls can be acharyas is simply another defect. These Gaudiya Matha folks simply rubber stamped a pile of conditioned souls as acharyas, thus their acharyas have been falling down left, right and center, that means, they have no idea what is an acharya in the first place. They do not even know that when a conditioned soul acts as a diksha guru, he gets overwhelmed by the karma, which is basic ABC idea. ys pd
C Dasa: One never RETURNS means that we were in the material world. In no way means that we can not fall from Vaikuntha.This is not the basic meaning of the verb RETURN. Use this verb to mean this is completely ignoring the most basic meaning of the verb return.
The question is before coming to this material world where we were?
PADA: They already said we have forgot our original service to Krishna, they are spinning in contradictions .... Srila Prabhupada says: contradiction means mayavada ... There is also the idea of nitya mukta and nitya baddha, the souls are either eternally liberated or eternally conditioned. That means, the souls in the spiritual world are generally staying there, Srila Prabhupada 90 percent never leave. Gaura Govinda Maharaja was another person who confused the jeeva tattva issue, guru tattva issue, etc.
Anyway, U Dasa is confusing Krishna's expansion called Mahavishnu with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada says, -- the first form to appear within the material creation is Mahavishnu. We only originate from Mahavishnu's body AFTER we fall here. The jeevas do not originate from Mahavishnu originally, the conditioned souls are in His realm in the material universe AFTER THEY FALL, and when the universe is dissolved they are returned to His body, where they rest with Mahavishnu, and they come back out from Him at the next material creation.
Fine, but that now means U Dasa is saying the souls originate here in the material world, exactly what the Catholic church teaches. The souls that are coming from Mahavishnu are already in the material world because Mahavishnu is the creator of the material universes. And this is another problem, U Dasa already said we fell because we forgot serving Krishna. Fine!
Except being in the realm of Mahavishnu is not serving Krishna, its called the conditioned state of existence. We fell because we forgot Krishna, but we were already in the material world with Mahavishnu? Ulises is mixing apples and oranges, again. No, we were in the realm of Krishna, we wanted to forget Krishna, and we then fell here, to the realm of Mahavishnu.
We have already read what the acharya has said about this topic, he simply does not agree with your theories that Mahavishnu is the source of the jeevas, and that Krishna starts out his children un-equally. Srila Prabhupada also said, there is no bona fide edition of Jaiva dharma now available, you have not proven otherwise.
Of course, even in the version you yourself cited, you cited that we have fallen due to forgetting Krishna, which means you are going around in a big circle of confusion. You also failed to explain how we can forget something we never had knowledge of. You forgot to explain how come -- when these GM God brothers (ok folks like BV Puri) complained about the Back to Godhead idea, Srila Prabhupada said they are tinged with mayavada.
You have not provided any quote where Srila Prabhupada said any current version of Jaiva Dharma and its commentaries are bona fide. Srila Prabhupada also said gurus are not appointed, or voted in, and BV Puri helped promote the GBC's gurus like Gopal Krishna and he said we were wrong to promote Srila Prabhupada as the diksha guru, and we hate to have to tell you the odious history of how that theory brought down the GM and ISKCON and created a huge sahajiya cult problem. BV Puri thus supported the theory that conditioned souls can be worshiped as acharyas, which is not found in any shastra anywhere. In sum, your guru tattva, jeeva tattva, and not doubt other tattvas, are contaminated.
First of all, you have no proof that is what Srila Bhaktivinode actually said or intended because you have no verified shastra or commentaries on such shastra. You have also said that (A) we forgot Krishna, and (B) we originated with Mahavishnu, which means, your Krishna tattva is totally scrambled and not authentic. Anyone who juxtaposes Krishna with His Mahavishnu expansions in the material world has not even understood the ABC principles of Krishna and His incarnations. Srila Prabhupada says we originated in Krishna's lila or sport, you say this is Mahavishnu, you have everything mixed up. Krishna's leela is not Mahavishnu's, which is known to the most ABC level of bhaktas under Srila Prabhupada's direction.
You also have no explanation for why BV Puri supported conditioned souls as gurus, ... because there is none. A sober devotee knows that Krishna's leela or sport is not Mahavishnu's pastimes, that is a separate function, creating the material world, this has nothing to do with Krishna's leela or sport in the spiritual world. No, you have not shown is any quote to support that your version of Jaiva Dharma is authentic, and the way you have everything else scrambled, its no wonder, you are not reading authentic materials or you would not have all of these things so badly confused. Mahavishnu is creating the material world, for you to say that is our origin means, you are simply spouting the same idea as the Catholic Church, we originated here. We are not members of that organization? ys pd
V Dasa: Superexcellent
C Dasa: MEANING OF SPECIFICALLY TO FORGET A PERSON,TO FORGET SOMEONE:
-TO LOSE THE DEAL OR AFFECTION WITH A PERSON
NT Dasa Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 8.18-19): "When Brahma's day is manifest, this multitude of living entities comes into being, and at the arrival of Brahma's night they are all annihilated." (Bg. 8.18)
Not from Maha Vishnu when He creates the material world. As said before, this "From Maha-Vishnu theory" is just wishful thinking. "
PADA: Yes, the Mahavishnu expansion takes care of the fallen jeevas who wanted to forget Krishna, its not the original status of the jeevas. Even U Dasa admits the jeevas who fell here wanted to forget Krishna. Of course this begs the question, how could the jeevas forget their relationship with Krishna, if this relationship did not exist previously?
And if no one can choose to NOT serve Krishna in the spiritual world, isn't that a robot zombie land? This also makes no sense, that the jeevas in the spiritual world have no ability to choose whether to serve or not to serve. This erases their independence. The jeevas there are not robot zombies, they are given the choice to either serve or not to serve, and some choose not to serve. Then again we have mixed servants, like the demigods, they wanted to serve Krishna and also enjoy materially, so their status is all a result of their independent desires.
We have to come to the point of recognizing that everyone is placed wherever they are by their desires and actions, its not that some people are placed in heaven and some are placed here by some whimsical process, its all going on exactly as per the desires of the jeevas. Unless we can understand this point clearly, it will be harder to desire the right thing. This is why Srila Prabhupada emphasized this point, that we are where we are by our desires, because this gives us an impetus to control and focus those desires. Its part of the process of returning home, back to God.
The "no fall" people make it look like there is no independent desires for the jeevas, nope, there is, and every being has their position as a result of those desires. Krishna gives us a particular spiritual body at the start of our existence to suggest to us what He would like us to do, but its not a fixed robot situation, we are allowed to decide if we want to perform that service, or not, because otherwise the whole thing would be mechanical robots. If Krishna starts off some people in a no fall post, and some of us in a possible fall post, that makes Him biased. He isn't, He loves all jeevas equally. ys pd