Saturday, February 10, 2018

RE: The soul's independent nature

KD: Now we need to force Krishna to allow us back by persisting on it. Then of course, devotees naturally ask what desire was not being fulfilled with Krishna that would inspire such insistence? Our relationship with Krishna being factually all satisfying of course. That is where discussions get really deep. And then devotees naturally then ask, if some desire was not being fully fulfilled with Krishna in Goloka, then how can our relationship with Krishna in Goloka be said to be literally and factually all-satisfying instead of only figuratively so? A very good question. That is where discussions get really, really deep and where most do not understand the answers even when given.

PADA: Srila Prabhupada also says that one of the definitions of a materialistic person is, one is never satisfied. In sum, without Krishna, one's ability to be fully satisfied is always incomplete, if not blocked etc.

KD: Then of course the next natural question is how is it possible to be unsatisfied in Krishna's transcendental association (pre-fall to material existence) if in that association everything is factually all-satisfying and if that statement is not simply a figurative exaggeration. The statement I am referring to "Krishna's association is all-blissful and all-satisfying." If there is not a solid, clear answer to that question given then it will simply leave people who are coming in to KC with the wrong idea that no matter what there will always be in the depths of the consciousness the desire to do something other than serve Krishna, even once we return to Goloka. It will leave people mistaking the inherent potential to fall into illusion with the living being never being satisfied; but rather with the idea that we are eternally compromising in our relationship with Krishna even in the state of total perfection. It will also lead to people mistaking surrender for compromise regarding what we actually desire. If not answered in full detail that is.

PADA: There are no other known explanations, we desire to serve Krishna and we are in His association, we desire not to serve, we are removed. Srila Prabhupada says when we return we will not remember being here directly, but we will have some idea that we were once burned by the stove (coming to the material world) and we will want to avoid stoves ... ys pd

KD: There are definitely deeper answers, which I always preach and relay, but I am certain Prabhupada chose not to discuss them openly because he knew practically everyone would misunderstand said answers and / or abuse said partial realizations. Which has proven to be true.

MB: No no... UNLESS ONE IS IN Kriahna Conciseness, even Krishna's Company isnt pleasing. Just as with Duryodhana ... he never liked Krishna ... So Krishna's association isn't the main important ... service attitude is the main important...

PADA: Familiarity breeds contempt, not always, but its possible. Same thing happened in ISKCON, some people around Prabhupada decided, they wanted to be Prabhupada ...

MB: Prabhupada says We all insisted Krishna To come here and even though Krishna didnt wish us to ... but since we are partially independent he did allow us... Just like a child insists his father that he wants to go somewhere ... the father knows that it will hurt him but after repeteated crying and pleading ... the father lets go.."Go go see what happens.." Same with us .. we insisted and insisted, and then Krishna Allowed... but is always waiting for us to realise our wrong path ... and go back to him. Just like the father says after he lets his child go and the child falls down..."SEE I TOLD U...NOW COME BACK...COME TO ME.."

PADA: Even the Berkeley police told me, there was Prabhupada, and then there were people who wanted to become Prabhupada. Same thing: there is Krishna, and there are those who wanted to become Krishna, same disease ... enviousness. Envy is possible as an alternate to loving Krishna, and then envy leads us to conditioned life where we have to fight for existence among all the other envious souls ...

MB: Exactly...i am to Blame for all my problems...ONLY myself.

KD: But in that case Duryodhana was already conditioned prior to said interactions. I'm talking there are deeper answers for how such illusion occurs "originally". I understand why Prabhupada usually chose no to go so deep into the topic because the fuller answers tend to confuse most devotees more, that is why, even though those fuller answers do exist he chose not to relay them more in depth and instead allowed each devotee to realize said topic individually for their particular cases via the devotional process. 

So then the next question I hope devotees asked Prabhupada is why would we insist? What would be the driving force of such ignorant insistence? How would such insistence be possible in a being who already is happy with Krishna in knowledge and in truth and who already knows about material illusions distinguished from transcendental joy? Unless Krishna originally kept us ignorance of material existence altogether, then in that case the issue would rest on Krishna and not on us.

MB: Krishna is LUST ONLY o Arjuna that compells one to do so. Actually even as soul we are not fully Sad Chid Ananda like Krishna.. We are not as complete ... and hence we always have a tendency to fall down. Prabhupada says even from Vaikuntha can one fall down when he starts to envy Krishna. So Vaikuntha doesnt save one, the service attitude does. If we ever fall in a drain.. we will always be curious never to fall again...similarly when one falls to this material world and goes to Vaikuntha... he finally knows that there isnt any happiness outside. And one realises that Serving KRISHNA is the only source of Happiness.... Since we are independent... we have the option...

PADA: It seems to all boil down to, we became envious of Krishna. Even if we knew that material life is suffering, that would not have convinced us to drop our envious? An envious person is sometimes severely punished for that consciousness, but that does not guarantee he will give it up? It might make him more envious ... 

Yes, Krishna is the cause of our having independence, but then we take charge of our minute independence, He gives us that ability. That is why Srila Prabhupada said, you are flying your own airplane, some of you will fly back to Krishna, some of you will crash and stay here ... Krishna is not flying your airplane, you are, and you can fly back to him or crash and burn here. And we see this all the time, some devotees are sincere, many have started to go back to their old ways ... Krishna did not order the sincere to remain sincere and the crash and burn people to crash and burn, they made these choices ... and they are making these choices every day, they have independence.
No one can refuse Krishna's policy. Anyway! If Krishna causes us to fail, and say for example rob banks, why do we have police then? The robber could argue that Krishna caused him to rob the bank (and some robbers do say Jesus makes me rob banks) hee hee hee! If Krishna is making everyone fail, then why would anyone try to become pure? If God is making us either love Him or not, then we are robots.

KD: Precisely, that is why Krishna does not admit such things openly. To leave us thinking that we have minute independence eternally.

PADA: There was a comedian once named Flip Wilson, and that was his punch line "the Devil made me do it." Unfortunately, it looks like KD thinks Krishna is making people rob banks, because He causes them to be crooks. There is no free will, they are operating badly under the direction of God, in this case, God is Satan, He makes people rob banks.

MB: ONLY DEVOTEES STAY WITH HIM ... so if u decide not to do as he says? Maybe u are day dreaming... cause u cant be there. KRISHNA also does not exactly give us independence. WE, being His PARTS and parcels... already have that quality. So Krishna didnt give it to us....we alredy have we are His parts... just like a drop of sea water is also salty... u dont have to mix salt with the drop... its already salty... So its up to us to stay or not..

PADA: Right. There is only partial independence, we cannot separate ourselves from the whole, we are infinitesimal parts of the whole. The part cannot ever be independent from the whole, its always at least partly dependent, therefore not fully independent. In any case, it does not matter what we think Krishna should or should not do, He created the existing system and we either surrender ... or suffer, i.e. we are dependent, our independence only allows us to function either here or in Vaikuntha, that is our classification, marginal, we can operate here or operate there, no other options exist, except we can stay for a time in Brahmana, our posiiton is minute independence, either we serve here or serve there -- this never changes, we are dependent on being placed in either field by the superior autho

That is also why we came here, we wanted to challenge His authority. As long as we want to do that, we have to stay here ... and that can go on for trillions of kalpas if we chose to have it that way ...


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