Friday, December 25, 2015

Origins of the Jeeva Soul pt.2

Patita Pavana dasa with PADA comments ...

Scriptures and Tattva-darsinas on Fall-vada

The following is a reply to Av. dasa's article, "The Characteristics of Goloka-Envy-Fall-vada" -- He quotes Srila Prabhupada on Srimad Bhagavatam 3.15.33 to proof his non fall-vada:

"…complete harmony in Vaikuntha…", but see Srila Prabhupada in 4.28.54 purport explaining this:

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world.

"However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world ... Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. … Although the
Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him."

[PADA: Correct, the people who claim that the souls in Vaikuntha never fall are making it sound like the souls there are some sort of mechanized robots who have no free will. Srila Prabhupada says that we need to desire to love and serve Krishna. And when that desire is lost, and we want to serve ourselves and not Krishna (even if we are in Vaikuntha) -- we fall down. 

That means, the people in the spiritual world stay there because they are desiring to serve the Lord, and that also means, they can change that desire, and desire NOT to serve (and hence fall down). The people who say the souls in the spiritual world never fall also have no good explanation for how the souls that are fallen here -- got here? Where do they fall from?]

Next point, reply on Av. dasa quoting SB 7.1.34: "How can someone fall down? It is unbelievable." 

We are part and parcel of the Supreme Inconceivable. So we have a spark of His inconceivability and can do something inconceivably foolish … and fall down. Similarly, souls fall away from the presence and association of a pure devotee? Why? He is perfect. Why abandon him? So, one can also turn away from the perfect spiritual world. Is it that maya is more powerful than the pure soul?

[PADA: Yes, Srila Prabhupada also compared these two ideas, just as the souls can associate with Krishna -- or leave, similarly -- sometimes people associate with pure devotees and leave their company to go back to the world of MAYA. Its the same principle, and we have seen hundreds of examples of devotees who left the Krishna consciousness program to go back to mundane things like -- watching TV football cheer leaders while drinking beer. That means they desired to leave the process of attaining Krishna. And we did the same thing when we desired to leave the Krishna seva process.]  

If Yogamaya can be active in the material world (as Mahamaya or as Yogamaya; naham prakasa sarvasya yoga-maya samavrtah), why can't maya be active in the spiritual world (and take the rebel jiva out). After all, Mahamaya is an eternal associate and amsa of Yogamaya.

[PADA: Correct, the root foundation of MAYA is our desire to be independent from Krishna. Krishna has to allow us to have that choice -- to serve of not to serve, otherwise there is no free will. 

Thus, as soon as the desire NOT to serve manifests, we are ALREADY fallen into maya's illusion, because the souls cannot function independently of Krishna, this is called illusion. This illusion could start in the spiritual world, just like criminals start their desire to misbehave while they are in the freedom of regular society, but as soon as they are discovered to be criminals -- they are removed from the society and they end up in jail.]

Can we say Mahamaya is some kind of a devi, demigoddess, who is in Maha-maya? Yogamaya is the almighty Lord's energy. She can call her servants or amsa, Mahamaya or another of her agents into action at any time, as the police can enter the king's palace to seize an envious servant. True, Maya is generally not in the spiritual world (SB 2.9.10), but there can be exceptions; it is also rare that a soul falls down: “The population of the prison house is *nothing* in comparison to the whole population of the state.”

[PADA: Yes, it almost appears there are too many fallen souls here, including the grass, the trees, the insects and so on, so how could there be such a numerous minority? Well that means, we have no idea how large the spiritual world is where most of the jivas are.] 

On this also see Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura on SB 3.15.25 Sarartha Darsini commentary that even materialists can enter the spiritual world, by the will of the Lord. "In Puranas and other scriptures, one sometimes hears that there is some momentary appearance of demons in the spiritual world, but this should not be considered actually entrance into the spiritual world, since they lack realization of spiritual happiness. However, an example may be given. 

Sometimes tigers or bears enter into the jewel-covered palace of the king endowed with various fragrances, since for amusement, the king desires that the populace see those animals. Similarly, the Supreme Lord, for fun, by his will brings material objects, ferocious demons, saintly persons like Bhrgu, or persons beyond the three gunas such as the Kumaras to Vaikuntha, to show to them the inhabitants of the spiritual world, and then quickly takes them away as is suitable for his purpose."

Also in Sri Brihad Bhagavatamrta we see that there are armies and army commanders in the spiritual world. They can put a criminal into the Durga or prison of the material world: Brihad Bhagavatamrta 2.1.18: "The many kinds of Vaikuntha perfections… such as being posted as a commander of the Lord's army"

Brihad Bhagavatamrta 2.4.29: "These Vaikuntha residents whom Gopa-kumara saw entering the gateway last were army commanders and other important authorities, returning late because they had been busy with various responsibilities outside."

There is scriptural evidence of eternal associates turning against the Lord, in the Puranas: Skanda purana "Mahesvara to Parvati: "An excellent gana (His associates, body of followers or attendants under the superintendence of lord Ganesa), proficient in music, named Ghanta was my favorite. During the period of Caksusa Manu, once, out of curiosity, he proceeded to Brahma's abode to see Brahma to show his musical proficiency. "I will propitiate Brahma, the
Lord of the worlds, with my songs". 

Narada told this to Lord Siva. Siva angrily cursed the gana: " O Ghanta, as you have left Me and have gone to another abode for service, be fallen on the earth" .......... he became a Gana once again and attained the greatest position at My
side with no cause for further rebirths." and "A brahmana did tapa to Lord Siva for a son not born of a womb. Lord Siva called the gana's and asked: "Who among you will offer himself as his son". All stood with faces turned downwards. Pushpadanta spoke: "The gana's will not leave You and go off to the earth. They will stay here forever in Your vicinity enjoying excellent joy and not enter the despicable human womb in the greatest hell". 

Lord Siva answered: "Displeasing Me, do fall into the mortal world".......... Again attained the eternal position. I (Lord Siva) embraced him and placed him on My lap.”

Next point of Av. Dasa: “Considering the Brahma Samhita quote 5.11 that Maha Vishnu is the creator of souls, just in the karana-samudra or causal ocean.” That is wrong. Maha-Visnu is creator of universes and souls. The translation used is of a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, HH Bhanu Maharaja, the translator of Jiva Gosvamis commentary on Brahma samhita, wrote: “sahasra-suu literally means "giving birth to thousands" without specifying what thousands. Therefore this cannot be used as a definite proof of Mahavisnu giving rise to all the jivas as tatastha sakti.”

[PADA: Once the jivas fall to the material world -- then they are under the jurisdiction of Mahavishnu. They have no connection to Mahavishnu prior to falling. The jivas sleep in His body when the universes are withdrawn, and then they are re-impregnated back into the universe when it is re-manifest. 

A number of Gaudiya Matha folks have argued with me over the years that the conditioned souls here were never with Krishna, they started out with Mahavishnu. Why weren't they ALL started out with Krishna? That means Krishna is placing the conditioned souls here by design, which takes away our free will, and which makes Krishna look like a bully for placing some people with Him and some in suffering.]

One Bhakta wrote "Please note that this does not refer to the unlimited nitya-baddha jivas who are sleeping within Maha Vishnu after the dissolution of the previous universe. Those jivas are referred to separately in verse 20 of

We asked the translator: "I don’t see two classes of souls from Maha-visnu. Is that true, are there two classes? One the conditioned souls, the other, souls just dropping from the brahmayjoti?"

Answer. “Nothing in the text or commentaries makes such a distinction.
Of course, repeatedly all the conditioned souls enter the material universes from Mahavisnu. A more decisive statement of what he is trying to prove is in Paramatma sandarbha. However, there it states that baddhas and nitya muktas arise from tatastha sakti, while he says something different in his article.” 

Here the texts from Paramatma sandarbha.

37. Thus, though jiva is a sakti, it is different from the material shakti, since it is called tatastha. It is called tatastha because it cannot be classed as maya since it surpasses maya - shakti (being conscious) and it cannot be classed as Paramatma since Paramatma is not subject to jiva's fault of being overcome by ignorance. Though it is the sakti of Paramatma, Paramatma is not tinged by jiva's faults just as the sun is not covered, although one ray of the sun (the jiva) can be covered by shadow.

47. Thus the jivas or tatastha-saktis are unlimited (ananta). There are two classes of these saktis. One is favorable to the Lord without beginning (anaditah) since these jivas have knowledge of the Lord by their nature. The other jivas are averse to the Lord without beginning (anaditah) since they lack knowledge of the Lord by their nature. 

The first type of tatastha-sakti is endowed with the manifestation of the antaranga - sakti and consists of the eternal associates of the Lord like Garuda. These are described in Padma Purana, Uttarakhanda, which is quoted in Bhagavat-sandarbha, starting with the phrase tripad-vibhuter lokas tu. 

These jivas of the first type are tatastha in nature since they do not enter into the category of the Lord (Isvara): they are fixed as jivas.”

Our comment. Thus, it is not that the jivas in the spiritual world are not tatastha, and cannot fall down. It is not that only Maha-Visnu’s emanations are tatastha jivas, who can fall or rise. The jivas are everywhere, always tatastha.

Brahma samhita 5.11 is thus:

sahasra-sirsa purusah sahasraksah sahasra-pat
sahasra-bahur visvatma sahasramsah sahasra-suh

"This form of Maha-visnu, the soul of the universe, creates countless universes and souls. Because he has countless avatara forms within the universes, he is said to have countless heads, countless eyes, countless feet and countless arms."

[PADA: Souls are not actually being created in this instance, the souls are already eternally existing and they can exist in the spiritual world or here. They are dormant in the body of Mahavishnu when the universes are retracted, and they are active when Mahavishnu re-generates the universes.]

Next point: The Bhagavad Gita verses quoted, Krishna stating that once you go back to Him, you will never return to this material world, are not about the original fall down, but about not falling again after going back to Godhead. But Srila Prabhupada states: 

“Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns.
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return. 
Acyutananda: He can return. 
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.” (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb. 19, 1976)

[PADA: This is important, the souls can always go where they want because they always have minute independence. Of course once souls go back to Krishna from here they tend to stay there with Krishna, having learned a lesson from being here.]

Lastly, we have had many quotes and logic in our discussions with Av. dasa. This could go on forever. Another approach is to consult the enlightened sages.

tarko 'pratishthah srutayo vibhinna nasav rishir yasya matam na bhinnam dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah:

"'Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate.'"

mahajano yena gatha sa pantha

So, in your next article we want to hear how a tattva-darsinah in your camp in a similar way can confirm your Brahman-kaka-vada (brahmayjoti-Kara Visnu karana-samudra patita-vada). 

"We fall from Srimati Radharani originally", not from Sri Maha-Visnu --

[PADA: We fall from our post as servants of Krishna, of which Radharani is the emblematic representative.]

"Sri Radhika is the Source of all individual souls whose function is to be employed in the service of Sri Krishna by the alternative methods [of] loyal conscious submission, neutrality or actual opposition. The individual souls serve Sri Krishna as constituents of Sri Radhika. When they forget that they are constituents of Sri Radhika they forget the nature of their own selves, and engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane."

So says Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura in Sri Caitanya's Teaching p. 615.

In this passage, we learn that the original position of the soul is to serve Krishna as a constituent of Sri Radhika. The ‘three alternative methods’ means the different positions or roles servants take in the pastimes or lila's of the Lord. Only when they forget this do they "engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane.”

We come from Radha- means eternally dependent - We fell from Radha and should go back to home, Radha. Srila Prabhupada explains the same:
"living entities, we also belong to the spiritual prakriti, we are expansion of spiritual prakriti. Just like Srimati Radharani is always engaged in the service of the Lord, anaradhyate."

[PADA: Correct, both Srimate Radharani (Krishna's internal energy) and the jivas are described as female or prakriti, whereas Krishna is designated as purusha or male.]

Aradhyate, it is Radharani. The Radharani, the name has come from the word aradhyate. Aradhana. Aradhana means worshiping. So everyone is meant, beginning from Radharani and her expansion, Lakshmi, in Vaikuntha, lakshmi sahasra sata sambhrama sevyamanam govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.29]... Here we worship mother Lakshmiji, goddess of fortune, to receive some favor. But in the Vaikuntha world there are many hundred thousands of Lakshmi, lakshmi sahasra sata, and they are sambhrama sevyamanam:

With great respect, they are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord. So we being expansion of the spiritual Lakshmi, or Radharani, our duty is to serve Radharani, and through Radharani to serve Krishna. This is Krishna consciousness movement. We are missing this point, that instead of learning from Radharani how to serve Krishna, we are being controlled by the another prakriti, material energy, Durga…… Kirtanad eva Krishnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]: 

If one takes to chanting this Hare Krishna mantra, then he becomes
relieved or freed from the all contamination of this age, and param mukta-sangah, he becomes liberated and he goes back to home, back to Godhead, simply by chanting….. Just like if you become honest, if you are not criminal, then there is no police control—police may be there. 

But as soon as you become criminal, you come under the control of police."
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.1, December 16, 1975, Bombay)

On the way down from Goloka, the falling soul gets another chance at the border between matter and spirit. Srila Prabhupada writes that the falling soul gets a warning of protection.

Then there is gazing at matter and spirit, as Av. dasa proposes. Erroneous Brahman-Kaka-patita-vada or Kaka-vada Kaka = Karanabdhisaya or Karanadakasayi (or Maha) Visnu karana-samudra or causal ocean, patita or fall-vada vada = theory.

Kaka-vada, as presented by Av. dasa, is the theory of falling from Karanabdhisaya Visnu in the causal ocean or karana-samudra. His theory says that the soul emanates from Lord Sri Maha-Visnu after a literal beginningless- anadir- eternal, dreamless sleep or susupti in the Brahmayjoti. And, while flying or swimming out from Maha-Visnu, the soul sees for the first time the material and the spiritual world.

This is wrong. Kaka is also the sound the crows make. To have a fair choice the soul should be fully Krishna conscious and see the whole of the spiritual and material worlds. If the soul would not be fully enlightened, but dozy after the anadi-susupti he would make the wrong choice - for the hell of the material world, for many mahakalpas (lifetimes of Brahma). 

One life of Brahma and the in-between period to the next Brahma is 622 trillion 80 billion years), that wouldn't be righteous. The soul should at that moment clearly see the Supreme Enjoyer and Controller with all His servants and decide not to surrender and be envious based on some knowledge.

Seeing the Lord and the spiritual world is on the absolute platform and non-different from being there. Thus, in this Kaka-vada all the souls in the material world have fallen down from the spiritual world, after having seen it. If, as Kaka-vada teaches, that the soul can fall from the border, at the beginning of his awakened life, having seen Krishna, the soul can fall from Krishna’s association in the spiritual world. It is the same Krishna.

[PADA: Right, to say that the souls see Krishna from the border region is the same as seeing Him in person in the spiritual region, because that would be absolute anyway. So these people are splitting hairs for no good cause.]

Thus, using the same logic, the soul can also originally fall from the free state in RadhaKrishna’s lila. 

[PADA: Right, seeing Krishna in the border region is the same as seeing Him in his original state, its absolute. So it really does not make sense that they only see Him from the border region, because it would not matter, they are seeing Him in either case.]

The idea that a short gaze from the border can give pure love of Godhead is another story; conditioned souls must struggle in rituals for many many lifetimes and that soul in a few seconds gets the mercy of Krishna-consciousness– only , all krpa-siddhas there– why?

Kaka-vada is also wrong because why would the Lord lay down souls in empty sleep forever.

[PADA: Again, makes no sense that we were born in a sleeping state in the body of Maha Vishnu, that means we did not have a chance to make a choice.]

He is lilamaya, anandamaya'bhyasat. He wants everyone in His pastimes always. Sat-vada. The question on a real life example of fall down becomes easily answered. Whether you choose for kaka-vada or sat-vada, the soul's relation with Krishna is eternal : nitya siddha.

Krishna prema sadhya kabu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya (Caitanya-caritamrta 2.22.107) -- every soul has been with Krishna in his or her eternal relationship (svarupa). All the sadhana - and krpa-siddhas here, had their nitya- svarupa with the Lord before they came down. 

[PADA: Jivera swarupa haya, nitya Krishna dasa, our original form is the servant of Krishna (swa-rupa).]

Knowing their eternal relation with Lord Sri Krishna after perfecting their
sadhana or after the krpa they received, we can know from which position they descended. Both are the same– generally.

Thus, wherever we read of devotees becoming liberated to their nitya-svarupa; that was their original position. One example is in the Brhad Bhagavatamrta 2.4.81-87, When the gopa, Svarupa or Gopa kumara, came back in the spiritual world, Lord Narayana says to him: "For so long I have been eager to see you… hope had Me dancing like a fool, thinking "perhaps in this lifetime, or this, or this, or this… "

Here Srila Sanatana Gosvami comments: "The Lord had been waiting a long time for Gopa Kumara to come back to Vaikuntha. The gopa had forgotten the Lord for many life times". This also refutes the anadi-patita vada, the philosophy that all souls in the material world are since time eternal, without beginning, in the material world. 

All the other souls are eternally in the spiritual world. These eternally liberated souls will never fall. According to that idea the soul in the material world has been nowhere else ever, can get liberated and then will never return here. The souls are in the material world for no reason. All the souls could be in ecstatic love in the spiritual world, but somehow matter is there eternally and needs some residents. So they say.

But, Srila Sanatana Gosvami says: "the gopa had forgotten the Lord". That means he knew the Lord from before, from the spiritual world, because Srila Sanatana Gosvami comments: "In previous [material] lives Gopa Kumara had never chanted the names of the Lord, not even namabhasa", for which the Lord could have given him a birth near Govardhana.

But, one may counter, when Gopa Kumara comes to Krishna loka he is called "nutna", newcomer. This is because Krishna loka is the place of the Lord's nara-lila or human like pastimes. For example, Krishna again and again goes to Mathura to kill Kamsa etc., but this is forgotten again and again. The Brihad Bhagavatamrta 2.6.356/357/361 and commentary describes:

"Krishna subdues Kaliya time and again, in the same way, and time and again lifts Govardhana Hill. And again and yet again He performs His many other wonderful pastimes. Thus the Lord enchants the hearts of His devotees.”

Commentary (Srila Sanatana Gosvami): Since all of Krishna's pastimes, beginning with the killing of Putana, are eternal, Krishna enjoys them with His devotees in Goloka as often as they like. Yet each time a pastime is repeated, it seems completely new, as if never seen or heard of before.

“But the residents of Vraja, completely bewildered by the kalakuta poison of their supreme love for Sri Krishna, never think that any of these events has ever occurred before.” Commentary: Because the Vraja-vasis are never aware that Krishna's pastimes are repeat performances, the attraction they feel for those pastimes is never impeded. The highest states of Krishnaprema have the power to create such bewilderment. 

“And, oh, the most glorious thing is that the foremost of enlightened persons, the Lord Himself, while drowning in an ocean of love for His dear devotees, cannot always remember what He has done and what He is going to do.”
Commentary: Isn't perfect knowledge an automatic byproduct of love of God? 

Why then are the pure devotees of Goloka so forgetful? Yes, to one who has prema omniscience comes naturally, but prema, being all-powerful, can redefine what is knowledge and what is ignorance.

“The Personality of Godhead Himself, by the influence of His Yogamaya, also forgets what He did before. But though He often forgets, He sometimes remembers, if it serves the purpose of His pastimes."

Misconceptions on Jiva-origin and Fall

In this article, we will counter some of the points made by Kb. dasa in his article, "Fall of the Jiva ….”

On ‘how can an eternal associate fall from bhakti and become a worm in the dirt’. The Purana's describe that once Lord Indra was cursed by Brhaspati to become a hog in the dirt. Lord Brahma wanted to bring him back to heaven, but Indra refused because he was enjoying family life or hog romance. According to the Taittiriya Upanisad 2.8.1 the happiness on Indra-loka is 10^14 better then the highest happiness on Earth. So if you stretch this 10^14 a little more you can understand the fall from the spiritual world.

This is also understood from Srila Prabhupada: 

Devotee: But if our love for Krishna originally is perfect why should we have left?
Prabhupada: Just like somebody is daily eating puris and halava, and he wants to eat puffed rice. So that tendency is there. That is also a side of enjoyment. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that.” (Srila Prabhupada’s
lecture in New Mayapur on Bg 15.15)

On ‘Perfect jiva's being as perfect as Krishna’, and ‘how the jiva can fall from perfection’. The spiritual world is perfect, but the living entity is not perfect (or purna). Bhaktivinoda Thakur's Jaiva Dharma describes the living entity, jiva as apurna-sakti. The jiva is limited in knowledge and bliss and can therefore do something imperfect (apurna), the jiva is not a svarupa sakti living entity who is full of knowledge and bliss and who is always perfect (purna). The jiva is tatastha or marginal. Tatastha means as the line between land and water;
it is always close to both matter and spirit

On "Radharani does not manifest jiva's".

Srila Prabhupada says in a lecture, on Srimad Bhagavatam 7.6.1 in Bombay December-17-1975: "We are expansions of Radharani". Alternatively, if jivas are not directly expanded, then indirectly, is also an expansion.

Nor is the spectrum of female consorts of Srimati Radharani only svarupa sakti, because the Bhaktirasamrta Sindhu describes kamarupa-ragatmika bhakti sadhana in 1.2.283 by which the jiva sakti living entity can become a gopi.
Alternatively, the main associates are sakti-tattva.

The all powerful original mother, mula- or adi-sakti can manifest all types of living beings on behalf of Krishna (mamaivamso' jiva loke Bg 15.7) as a queen does the household duties of a king. A ksatriya queen can do all the duties of the king, and the king can sit back and enjoy.

According to Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 20.165 Krishna expands the Visnu-tattva's (Gods) and Saktyavesa-avatara's to dominate (these are the purusa functions, male or enjoyer).

Similarly, CC Adi-lila 4.76 states that Radharani expands all the sakti's, energies, beginning with the milkmaids in Vraja and then the queens in Dvaraka and Vaikuntha (the prakrti functions, the enjoyed and controlled).

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti comments on SB 6.16.57: “Some jivas, with desires for dasya etc., who have perfected themselves by pure bhakti, or by the mercy of nitya-mukti bhaktas, are included among the the eternal associates as dasas. They are also considered to be nondifferent from the svarupa of the Lord, since they are empowered by the svarupa-sakti.”

This is also written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. Not in an "emotional outburst", as Kb. dasa says, but in a philosophical book, Sri Caitanya's Teachings.

The context does not indicate that he is emotional and making a hyperbole.
"Sri Radhika is the Source of all individual souls whose function is to be employed in the service of Sri Krishna ... The individual souls serve Sri Krishna as constituents of Sri Radhika. When they forget that they are constituents of Sri Radhika they forget the nature of their own selves, and engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane."

He writes three pages later: "Siva and mahamaya are closely connected with the jiva. The connection of jiva with Siva and mahamaya is established only when he is disassociated from the service of Sri Sri Radha Krishna."

When saints are emotional, they still speak absolute truth under the direction of yogamaya. Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (antya 5.97) gives the standard: no rasabhasa, overlapping of transcendental mellows and no siddhanta-viroddha or apa-siddhanta, theories contrary to the principles of the bhakti cult.

On Kb dasa stating, "Lord Krishna and his lost servant unite again in Vraja".
This is right. Some light in the darkness. It was meant to be some darkness; Suddha-sarasvati enlightened him. "Lost Servant" means Krishna had that servant but then Krishna lost him. Now Krishna regained his lost servant. “Unite again in Vrndavana” means they were united in Vrndavana then the servant got lost and then came back again to unite with the master.

On "The lord and devotee speak incomprehensible and mad in ecstasy".
This is when it is said: "no one falls from Goloka". In ecstasy they speak "who can leave us, it is so nice here". Another point on this; according to Skanda Purana 2.2.27 this material world has 3½ crores or 35 million brahmandas or universes. But the spiritual world is unlimited. The material world, the souls here and the chance that a soul falls to maya are thus ‘nothing’ compared to
the spiritual world. Because in mathematics any event that has just one chance in 10^50 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening, therefore the conclusion can be made that no one or hardly anyone falls from Goloka, which is the infinite world.

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