[Patita Pavana dasa with a few PADA comments --]
This blog is about the original position of the soul.
Was the soul originally in love with Sri Sri Radha Krishna in the Goloka Vrndavana planet, or with one of Their Sri Sri Laksmi-Narayana expansions on a Vaikuntha planet? Or were we eternally in the Brahmajyoti, Krishna’s effulgence and then on coming out we had the choice to either fall down to the clouds of illusion, the material world or rise up to Krishna seva, Krishna consciousness, the spiritual world?-brahman-tatastha-patita-vada.
Or are we eternally here?-anadi-patita-vada.
Or are we still in the spiritual world with a pastime expansion going around through the prison cells, the material bodies, of Durga-devi dhama? -svapna-matra -patita-vada or dream-vada.
This last theory is explained in the section “dream vada”.
The conclusion: we were originally in the love of Sri Sri Radha Krishna in Their planet. Srila Prabhupada said: “So the Mayavadi philosopher, their spiritual life means to merge into the Brahman effulgence, and the Vaisnava philosopher to go back to Goloka Vrndavana, Vaikuntha, where God is situated, and become His associate person.” (Philosophy, Srila Prabhupada discussions with Hayagriva, on Arthur Schopenhauer)
The book is in the form of debates.
The different chapters treat the various aspects of the subject, and can be read independently; you don’t have to read from 1 to 2 to 3 etc.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare
and go back to Sri Sri Radha Krishna’s planet.
1. Fall-vada in the Mahabharata, the Puranas and Upanisads
2. Three latest acaryas on fall of the jiva
3. Scriptures and tattva-darsinas on fall-vada
4. We fell from Srimati Radharani originally, not from Sri Maha-Visnu
5. Misconceptions on jiva-origin and fall
6. We tried to be tatastha...
7. Maha-Visnu-envy-fall-vada (mef) is 94% Goloka-envy-fall-vada (gef)
8. "From Vaikuntha no one falls" is not a categorical absolute
9. Soul falling from brahmajyoti is rejected by Srila Prabhupada
10. Margin is always in contact with matter and spirit
11. From Radha-Syama to Maya-devi dhama
12. A servant of the lord cannot fall from Vaikuntha
13. Goloka Fall-down is confirmed by Srila Prabhupada
14. Bona-fide study rests the case; we fell from love
15. Back to Godhead means back to the Head God, Krishna
16. Lost paradise football
17. We fell from the rasa-lila
18. Jiva dance back to rasa-lila
19. The point has no length, no breadth, Essay on sakhalAnAm: no unsteadiness
20. Displeasing Me, do fall into the mortal world
21. Back to home is the oasis, not the desert
22. Come back to Me and dance with Me. Why rot in this rotting dance?
23. Liberated souls don’t expand fallen amsas
24. Liberated souls expand lila amsas
25. Gopis don’t dance in Durga’s rasa-lila even in dreams
26. O, Hare, O, Krishna, kindly accept me again. I am fallen in this material world
Three Latest Acaryas on Fall of the Jiva
The recent article, "Mahavakyas of Goloka-Envy - Fallvadis" by Av. dasa is based on a misinterpretation of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma ch. 15-16. The statements in these chapters of falling as an associate of Maha -Visnu – as Av. dasa explains in his version should be understood as that the soul is on the way down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and gets a second chance of choice at the border of the spiritual and material world.
[PADA: Right, many in the Gaudiya Matha -- such as Sridhara Maharaja, Narayan Maharaja and others, hold the view that the jeeva souls could not have fallen from Krishna's association. They assert that the "chosen" jeevas already with Krishna were always there, they never fall.
Whereas we second rate souls, we originated in the borderline region between the spiritual and material worlds. However that theory would mean God is biased by His originating some some souls with Him, and some not, which would mean -- God is (a) favorably biased towards some souls and (b) unfavorably biased against other souls.
That would mean God pre-selects some of His children to be originally with Him and never fall, and He pre-selects some other souls to be in a deteriorated condition of being able to fall. Why would God be biased either for or against His own children at their origins, when even the ordinary man is equal towards all his children?
Why would God be biased favorably towards some souls and unfavorably biased against others, at their birth and origins? This makes no sense? That means God is keeping some and casting out others from His kingdom at the start, which more or less places the blame for our fall -- on Him.]
Srila Prabhupada writes in SB 3.12.3: “The Lord first of all tries to protect him from the trap, but when the living entity persists on gliding down to hell, the Lord helps him to forget his real position to give the chance to see if he is happy by misusing his independence.”
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, in his Sri Sri Kalyana kalpa-taru, describes that the soul originally falls from Vrndavana, for example, from dancing in the rasa-lila -- cid-dhama-bhaskara Krishna, tanra jyotirgata / ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata.
Krishna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.
sei jiba prema-dharmi, Krishna-gata-prana
sada Krishnakrstha, bhakti-sudha kore' pana
These jiva souls are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krishna. Always being attracted by Krishna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion.
nana-bhava-misrita piya dasya-rasa
krsner ananta-gune sada thake basa
Enjoying a mixture of various moods in the mellow of servitude, the jivas eternally remain
subjugated and controlled by Krishna's unlimited virtuous qualities.
Krishna mata, Krishna pita, Krishna sahka, pati
ei sab bhinna-bhava Krishna kore rati
They also love Krishna in all the different moods of being related to Him as a mother, father, friend, or husband.
Krishna se purusa ek nitya brndabane
jiba-gana nari-brnda, rame Krishna sane
Eternally in Vrndavana Krishna is the only male (purusa), and all the jivas there enjoy pastimes in His company in the role of females (prakrti).
sei to' ananda-lila ja'r nai anta
ataeva Krishna-lila akhanda ananta
There is no end to all of these blissful pastimes; therefore Krishna's pastimes are known for being undisputedly supreme and unlimited.
je-sab jiber 'bhoga-banca upajilo
purusa bhavete ta'ra jade paravesilo
All the souls, in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being a male (a purusa).
maya-karya jada maya--nitya-sakti-chaya
Krishna-dasi sei satya, kara-kartri maya
Illusory material activities as well as maya herself are both the shadow reflections of the eternal potency. In reality, maya is the eternal maidservant of Krishna, but her job is to be in charge of operating the prison-house of the material world.
sei maya adarser samasta bisesa
loiya gathilo bisva jahe purna klesa
This illusory energy maya, has created the material universe exactly like an imitation model of the real spiritual variegatedness, but with the added feature of being full of various miseries.
jiba jadi hoilena Krishna-bahimukha
mayadevi tabe ta'r jachilena sukha
If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krishna, then Mayadevi's duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.
maya-sukhe matta jiba sri-Krishna bhulilo
sei se avidya-base asmita janmilo
Intoxicated by maya's illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krishna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises.
bhramite bhramite jadi sadhu-sanga hoy
punaraya gupta nitya-dharmer udoy
Thus wandering and wandering, if by chance the poor soul gets the association of the devotees of the Lord, then her eternal nature, which has been for so long covered over, will once again become aroused.
sadhu-sange Krishna-katha hoy alocana
purva-bhava udi' kate mayar bandhan
By discussing topics concerning Krishna in the association of devotees, and thus awakening her previous mentality of servitude to Krishna, all bondage to maya's illusion become severed.
Krishna-prati jiba jabe korena iksana
bidya-rupa maya kore' bandhana chedana
When the conditioned soul thus looks towards Krishna, then by such an act, this very same maya, in the form of transcendental knowledge, severs all of her material bonds.
mayika jagate bidya nitya-brndabana
jiber sadhana-janya kore' bibhavana
The seat of this transcendental knowledge is present within this very universe as the eternal Vrndavana-dhama in India . Lord Krishna expands His abode and pastimes at this Vrndavana just to facilitate the conditioned souls' practice of devotional service.
sei brndabane jiba bhavavistha ho'ye
nitya seva labha kore' caitanya-asraye
When she comes into contact with this Vrndavana, the living entity becomes overwhelmed and lost in emotional ecstasy. Remaining under the shelter of Lord Caitanya, she attains eternal service.
prakatita lila, ar goloka-bilasa
ek tattva, bhinna noy, dvividha prakasa
The Lord's pastimes of appearing in this world, as well as His pastimes in Goloka, are one and the same truth. Being non-different, they are simply two types of manifestations of the same pastimes.
nitya-lila nitya-dasa-ganer niloy
e prakata-lila baddha-jiber asroy
The eternal pastimes in Goloka are the abode of all the eternally liberated servitors, whereas the manifest pastimes in the material world are the refuge for all of the bound-up conditioned living entities.
ataeva brndabana jiber avasa
asar samsare nitya-tattver prakasa
Therefore Vrndavana is the living entities original eternal home, manifesting its own eternally true nature within the dead material world. (Kalyana kalpataru 13-36). Also, see these statements from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's Harmonist:
"We are expelled Adams and Eves from paradise…. Dislocated stars like us shooting from the ever-glowing infinite fountainhead of the Transcendence. The shooting stars are again retracted by the same fountainhead through the power of instructions and bliss.... this will carry them back to their original position to be dovetailed with the Absolute."
“Question: I cannot understand this world.
Answer: It is camp life. This world is not our original abode. It is meant for certain purposes. After that we are to proceed to our original home. This world is not a desirable place. It is not good to be enticed to stay here for a long time, forgetting our original abode. We stay there with Godhead. We are the eternal servants of Godhead.
... But the real truth is that we are to serve Godhead in the five different capacities. It is only when we deem it fit to come down to this world to lord it over other finite entities for our enjoyment that our real position happens to be forgot to some extent. This contingency arises when we want to deprive our Lord.”
(Forgetfulness of the Humanists, An article originally published in The Harmonist on Sept 19th, 1934 - Vol XXI No.2)
Comment: We were originally in our original home or abode, with the Godhead. This is our real eternal position. Then we wanted to deprive our Lord and deemed it fit to come down to this world. We don’t come originally from the Brahman effulgence.
"Sri Radhika is the Source of all individual souls whose function is to be employed in the service of Sri Krishna by the alternative methods [of] loyal conscious submission, neutrality or actual opposition. The individual souls serve Sri Krishna as constituents of Sri Radhika. When they forget that they are constituents of Sri Radhika they forget the nature of their own selves, and engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane." (Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 615)
He writes three pages later:
"Siva and mahamaya are closely connected with the jiva. The connection of jiva with Siva and mahamaya is established only when he is disassociated from the service of Sri Sri Radha Krishna."
And, this from his commentaries on Srimad Bhagavatam:
"Having forgotten Krishna, the conditioned living entity is suffering the misdirection and perversion of his own so-called intelligence. The living entities are fragmental parts of the supreme shelter, Krishna , but have fallen from Krishna's kingdom of spiritual pastimes."
(Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.38 purport by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur)
And from his Caitanya Bhagavata’s translation and commentaries:
"toma-saba' lagiya krishnera avatara
hena krishna bhaja, saba chada anacara”
“Krishna has incarnated for your benefit. Therefore give up all sinful activities and worship Krishna.”
Commentary: The eternal pastimes that svayam-rupa Krishna performs with His 'attracted' associates in Vraja are meant for removing the misfortune of the living entities, so to engage in service other than the worship of Krishna is most unbecoming . Therefore, understanding yourselves as 'attracted' in your relationship with the Lord, you should try to awaken your constitutional propensities… Attracted living entities have no propensity other than the worship of that Krishna. The moment the attracted souls are distracted , they glance towards maya from Vaikuntha. At that time the universe is created and material enjoyment overcomes the constitutional duties of the living entities belonging to the marginal potency of the Lord and makes them averse to Krishna."
(Caitanya Bhagavata chapter 13, text 84 commentary of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati)
Our further comments on the points of Av. dasa:
On "no one falls": The spiritual world is unlimited and the material world is a limited area (see Srila Rupa Gosvami's Laghu-bhagavatamrta 5.286). Millions, trillions, etc., of souls in the material world means "no one" compared to the *unlimited* souls in the *unlimited* spiritual world. Just as a point has no length and breadth.
This is also concluded in the following statements of Abhaya Carana Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, where he states that only a few fall down:
"Question Dr. John Mize : the soul somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride…why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing.
Prabhupada: That is his independence... They committed offense… That was their fault...So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence.
Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?
Prabhupada: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence...Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal… in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down…. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fallen down, that is not independence. That is force." (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, June 23, 1975)
And he states that the soul doesn’t fall originally from the brahmayjoti.
”Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krishna… in His lila or sport.” (SPL, 1973)
“The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krishna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krishna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krishna consciousness immediately he is fallen down."
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, June 13, 1970)
Here he states the souls fall from the Krishna’s spiritual kingdom to His secondary kingdom:
"…the kingdom of God where spiritual varieties are there. They are not variety-less. Otherwise, the Lord would not have said that samstha. There is a regular establishment… We are all belong to that establishment, but being forgetful, we are now in this material world.
Just like sometimes some of us becomes crazy and he is, goes to the lunatic asylum, similarly, those who become crazy, such spiritual identities, they are put into this lunatic asylum. It is called material world." (Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 6.11-21)
Next statement is that the soul falls from Krishna’s pastimes on Krishna-loka.
Guru-kripa: "How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements...
Srila Prabhupada: That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.
Sudama: It is very hard thing to understand.
Srila Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.
Acyutananda: It is not difficult. They don't want to understand.
Srila Prabhupada: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel...
Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."
Srila Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
Srila Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.
Acyutananda: In Krishna book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is... Will that be the first part of their fall down, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with Krishna's associates?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes." (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
In the next quote, Srila Prabhupada explains how one can fall from the association of any form of the Lord: Maha-Vishnu, Narayana, Krishna, etc.
"Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.
Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krishna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new." (Srila Prabhupada Letter, February 27, 1970)
Here again he states that the soul falls from Krishna’s sports: "First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going.
"Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there... As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His lila or sport…. Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krishna… in His lila or sport" (Srila Prabhupada Letter, June 6, 1972)
In the next quote, Srila Prabhupada states how one falls down from playing football with Krishna.
"….so long the spark is within the fire, it has got the same quality, illumination and burning quality. But as soon as he falls down- he is extinguished, no more illumination, no more burning power. So our position is like that. Although we are part and parcel of God, mamaivamso [Bg. 15.7], because we have cyuta, fallen down from our spiritual atmosphere...... Just like spiritual atmosphere, Krishna's friends, cowherd boys, they're playing with Krishna. That is also playing.
"And here in this material world the boys they also play football play. But these two plays are different. One is spiritual and another is material....
…..There are three chances. One chance is the spark falls down on dry grass-then there is fire. As soon as the spark falls down on the dry grass there is fire for some time. And when the spark falls down on the ground, it is extinguished. And when the fire, spark, falls down on the water, then it is not only extinguished; it becomes no more inflammable. Very difficult to inflame. Similarly, when we fall down from the fire, spiritual world, we associate with three qualities." (Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam 1.7.16, Vrndavana)
“Devotee: Did Krishna play that? (soccer, football play)
Prabhupada: Unless Krishna played, how you can play?”
The last quotes are from the philosophy conversations with Hayagriva on the neo-Platonist, Plotinus.
Hayagriva: "Plotinus writes, "Let us flee then to the beloved fatherland. Here is sound council. But what is this flight? How are we to gain the open sea? The fatherland for us is there whence we have come. There is the father… "If the souls remain in the intelligible or spiritual realm with the Soul, or Supersoul, they are beyond harm and share in the soul's governance. They are like kings who live with the high King and govern with Him and like Him do not come down from the palace. But if they wish to be independent, if they are tired, you may say, of living with someone else"... So when the individual soul decides to withdraw, he becomes fragmented, isolated and weak, when he decides to withdraw from the, what he calls the palace of the King.
He uses this following metaphor. He says, "We are like a chorus grouped about a conductor who allow their attention to be distracted by the audience. If, however, they"—that is we, the individual souls—"were to turn toward their conductor, they would sing as they should and would really be with him. We are always around the One. If we were not, we would dissolve and cease to exist. Yet our gaze does not remain fixed upon the One. When we look at it, we then attain the end of our desires and find rest. Then it is that all discord passes. We dance an inspired dance around it. In this dance the soul looks upon the source of life, the source of the intelligence, the root of being, the cause of the good, the root of the soul. All these entities emanate from the One without any lessening, for it is not a material mass."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, when we divert our attention to the illusory energy, then we fall down.
Hayagriva: Plotinus accounts for the fall of the soul in this way. He says, "How is it that souls forget the divinity that begot them? This evil that has befallen them has its source in self-will, in being born, in becoming different and desiring to be independent… Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin, and when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it."
Srila Prabhupada: That's a fact."
[PADA: Gaura Govinda Maharaja claims that Srila Prabhupada's jeeva tattva is not correct and he will correct that very soon (he was going to get the Mayapura brahmanas to protest ISKCON)? Oddly, he was not going to their meetings attacking them for making false acharyas?]