Patita Pavana das with a few PADA comments --
This is a misunderstanding and mistranslation of Brahma Samhita 5.56 - nimesArdhAkhyo vA vrajati na hi yarapi samayah - "not even a moment of time passes".
Samayah na vrajati “time does not proceed for even half a second”, means according to Jiva Gosvami’s purport that "the inhabitants in Goloka do not know time at all because they are absorbed in Govinda. Or the meaning can be 'the faults of time do not exist there.'"
Srila Prabhupada explains that "no time" in the spiritual world means that the destructive feature of material time is absent. There is spiritual time. The astakaliya-lila revolves on and on, day after day. Astakaliya means the 8 periods of the day with pastimes at the end of the night, morning pastimes, forenoon pastimes, midday pastimes, afternoon pastimes, dusk pastimes, evening pastimes and midnight pastimes, as described in Krishnah-nika Kaumudi,
Govinda lilamrta, Krishna bhavanamrta.
There is beginning and end of every period. Also, the jiva tatastha fallen soul goes to the spiritual world after the nightmare of maya. He originally left Krishna or Narayana, and goes "Back to Godhead." The jiva began his material
life, was gone from the spiritual world. That material life ended. Then the jiva begins spiritual life again. Thus, there is beginning and end.
But there is no death and old age. And the spiritual forms of the houses and kunja's- forest huts do not get broken down by time. By the arrangement of Sri Krishna's lila-sakti there is eating, cooking, making of new flower garlands etc. This means blissful changing of services of the souls (= the cintamani's or spiritual atoms, the building blocks of the spiritual world see Brahma Samhita T 29 purport).
In this world also the atoms (paramanus) have souls, but they are covered by the three modes of material nature. Srila Prabhupada says: "Everything is generated from Krishna, but according to consciousness they are divided
into superior and inferior energy. The more the consciousness is developed one comes to the superior platform of life.....” (Lecture on SB 5.5 21-22)
“It is the same energy of the lord, but one is developed and the other is not developed. Like this there are varieties of developed consciousness within the material world… Living entities, they have knowledge. That is the difference between matter and living entities. The dull matter still requires to be developed. There is knowledge, but it is covered.” (Lecture by
Srila Prabhupada on SB 3.26.5, Bombay, December 17, 1974)
But in the spiritual world the souls are surrounded by the spiritual atoms of earth, water, fire, air, ether. In the CC Adi-lila 5.53 we read: "The earth, water, fire, air and ether of Vaikuntha are all spiritual. Material elements are not found there". These elements are composed of spiritual atoms, cintamani souls.
As Bhagavad gita 15.1 states -- urdhva-mulam adhah-sakham: This world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world.
On "Soul returned to Godhead not being allowed to remember the maya energy". "Living entities in the spiritual world don't glance at maya"
This is not so. In Brhad Bhagavatamrta 2.3.77-91, Ganesha is showing, seeing and describing many parties of Vaikuntha devotees who go down from the spiritual world beyond Siva or Mahesha-dhama (which is just in the spiritual world, so beyond the mahat-tattva or maya) to the many universes in the material world to preach and spread pure devotion.
Ganesa showed this to Gopakumara who was in Mahesha dhama He saw a group of attractive four-armed persons from Vaikuntha arrive. They were adorned with all the opulence's of youth, charm, beauty and good fortune.
They made the Saivites seem invisible by their effulgence and were immersed in the blissful rasa of singing the sublime glories of the lord.
Also in Brihad Bhagavatamrta 1.3.46. we read:
"They travel freely wherever they want, protecting and promoting the cause of the Lord's devotees and the Lord's devotional service."
Commentary: "These eternally liberated Vaikuntha-vasis are always helping others. Acting in the material world, they protect sincere persons from misunderstanding the principles of devotional service and thereby falling down and being punished by the agents of Yama-raja.
The Vaikuntha-vasis encourage the descent of advanced devotees into saintly families, act for the increased prosperity and influence of those devotees, and render unseen help to the devotees' preaching."
According to Sri Jiva Gosvami in Bhakti Sandarbha, anu 180: “the souls returned again to the spiritual world are the best for going to the material world to save fallen souls, because they have experience of suffering, they can most feelingly bestow their grace sometimes recalling their own previous suffering in the same way as a person recalls a nightmare upon waking… Mercy is the movement of the heart which occurs only when the suffering of another person touches one's heart. But the devotee in the spiritual world ever relishes
Therefore, suffering arising out of ignorance cannot penetrate his heart, just as
darkness can never contact the sun….Consequently, there is no possibility of compassion being aroused in that devotee's heart at the plight of such suffering.”
“Devotee: When they go back to Godhead, some people can remember their past lives.
Devotee: In the mind.
Devotee: I thought the mind was left behind?
Prabhupada: No. Actually mind carries you to the next body. So mind goes with you. The material mind, material ego, material intelligence become nil when you are completely liberated. But at that time your spiritual mind acts.
It is not very difficult to understand. Somebody is acting under the impression... Just like one of our students, he was acting under the impression that he is Frenchman and doing something subversive, and now he is thinking that "I am Krishna's." (chuckles) He has stopped all those nonsense. [break] When he was
thinking that he's a Frenchman, that mind was there. And now he's thinking that "I am Krishna's," the mind is there. So where is the chance of losing the mind?" (Lecture, SB 7.9.11, Montreal)
On "Maha-Visnu creating new incomplete souls sorely deficient in bhakti".
Here Kb. dasa creates a god who for his sadistic fun of playing ‘the saving hero', creates souls in the various hellish prison cells (bodies) of the material world. This kaka-vada he took from the book ‘in Vaikuntha not even the leaves fall'. The main author of this book changed his mind on this subject, after being defeated by the book “our original position”.
[PADA: Kundali's book on jeevas was made along with some Babajis from India, but it was never actually authorized to even consult with these Babajis by Srila Prabhupada, much less use them as authorities on a book. Their idea that we are originating in brahman or tatastha is mayavada.]
He had made so many translation mistakes to come to the Brahman-tatastha-fall theory. He is now an anadir-patita-vadi. That nitya-patita-vada, philosophy is even more fallen. According to them there is no logic to the souls being in the material world. The material world is not needed.
[PADA: The material world has no reason to exist, this is basically mayavada nihilism, there is no purpose to life. These people are sort of drifting into Jean Paul Sartre territory.]
The spiritual world alone would be perfect and sufficient. Somehow the mistaken creation of the maya is an eternal fact. Even Krishna doesn't want it, but it is eternally designed like that, so He cannot change the dogma.
[PADA: Even Krishna cannot change His own creation?]
In Vaikuntha leaves ‘do’ fall down. In one of the Six Gosvami's of Vrndavana's rasika books there is a description of Krishna waiting in a kunja for Radharani to come. Krishna hears the movement, caused by the wind, of dried fallen leaves on the ground. He thinks this the sound of Radharani coming and walking on the dried leaves. He asks: "Is it You, Radha?"
This kaka-vada is also the philosophy of the Calvinists and Madhvites. With this God "Gaudiya Vaishnavism has to grow and expand around the world"? Do the other than ISKCON Gaudiya – Vaisnava groups want to stay behind and not grow up and fill in the gaps of undeveloped areas of their philosophies. Of no one else have we so much clear words as of Srila Prabhupada's; no wonder its all is very clear, as for example re: the original position of the soul.
Gaudiya Vaisnavism has to grow into the rationalistic scientific world and give logical answers. Teachers in the past may not have presented this issue elaborately, or not all their words have reached us. We know one Radhakunda Mahanta who had no knowledge at all about this topic.
But Srila Prabhupada knew:
* --Then he becomes fit for going back to home, back to Godhead.”
* --Everyone is immortal, but he is fallen in such material condition that he thinks himself as mortal. Because I am spirit soul, therefore the Vedic injunction … aham brahmasmi, so ’ham, means “I am as good as the Supreme Being,” means “He is eternal; I am also eternal. He is also living being; I am also
living being.” That means qualitatively we are one, God and me. But quantitatively, He is great; we are small. So we have to realize this, that we can become eternal, immortal, all qualified like God, if we get out of these material clutches….
And as soon as you become dhira, you are the first-class candidate for going back to home, back to Godhead.
Hridayananda: [translating question] He says that if we are originally in the spiritual world and full of knowledge, how can we try to lord it over, or, in other words, how can we try to do something which actually cannot be done? And if we are originally full of pleasure, then why would we accept an inferior thing?
Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that although you have got the God's qualities, but you are very small. Just like a big fire and the sparks of the fire, similarly, God is big fire and we are like sparks of the fire.
When the sparks come down from the fire, it becomes extinguished. So because we are very small, as soon as we become out of the big fire, out of touch with God, then we become extinguished. So somehow or other, if you are again go to the fire, you have your original, brightened, illuminating quality, the spark. So at the present moment, somehow or other, being fallen in this material condition, we have lost our godly qualities.
We can cure that. Just like a diseased man lost his appetite, but by treatment he can again awaken his appetite and eat properly. So we, being very small—we may say "a small god"—therefore we fall under the clutches of maya, illusion. But it can be cured. We can again revive our original position.
Hridayananda: [translating] She said if we have not already achieved perfection, then how can the soul achieve the perfection? It seems that he has to reincarnate slowly in time to achieve the perfection.
Prabhupada: No, that is no argument. If you are diseased, you can be cured if you take the proper medicine, treatment. That's all. Disease is not hopelessness. Otherwise, why the people go for treatment to a physician?
Similarly, out of ignorance you are now in this miserable condition, but if you become treated by bona fide spiritual master, then you'll be cured. Originally every one of us—pure. Now, by material condition we are now contaminated. That... But there is process to get out of this material contamination. Then
again we become pure. And as soon as we become pure, there is no more birth, death, old age and disease. Finished.
Hridayananda: [translating] Why it seems that when the soul comes into contact with material nature it becomes contaminated?
Prabhupada: He wants to enjoy this material enjoyment. Just like everyone is going to the restaurant for eating something palatable, but we are not going; and somebody is going to cinema, but we are not going to the cinema.
Similarly, there are two kinds of men: one is attracted, one is not attracted. Those who are not attracted, they are called nitya-siddha, eternally liberated. And those who are being attracted, they are called nitya-baddha, eternally
conditioned. So you'll find always two classes of men. So one is attracted; one is not attracted. In the spiritual world the number of liberated person—many, many times greater than these conditioned soul.
Just like the prison house and outside the prison house. The population outside the prison house, their number is very great, but within the prison house
there are small number, criminals. So there are innumerable living entities. Out of them, some of them become attracted to this material enjoyment; others not. So one who does not want to serve Krishna and wants to serve his senses, he's put into this material world. And he's given all facilities to enjoy, but he becomes entangled. This is the position.
(Bg 02-15 MEX City 1975-02)
"All souls were originally pure, nitya-siddha."
"Originally every one of us— pure."
"We are originally in the spiritual world and full of knowledge, originally full of
"We have lost our godly qualities.”
But “by treatment he can again awaken"
"We can again revive our original position."
"There is process to get out of this material contamination. Then again we become pure.”
And "then he becomes fit for going back to home, back to Godhead."
"If you are again go to the fire, you have your original, brightened, illuminating quality."
We Tried to Be Tatastha…
…or neutral on studying S. dasa's recent paper, "Jiva-tattva As It Is" on the soul's fall from tatastha or– as he defined it – the ocean between the material and spiritual world.
He states: (S. dasa's points indented):
- "…in the ocean of causes one has a slight dizzy vision of Vasudeva".
That is not fair. This is like half educating your child and throwing it in the ocean between Rama’s kingdom and Ravana's svarna (golden) Lanka. Better foster the child in Ramaraja and then give it a free choice. Therefore we fall from love of God in the spiritual world.
One even gets a warning of protection (SB 3.12.3 purport) "Anyone who has some independence may sometimes misuse it due to ignorance. When the
living entity prefers to misuse his independence and glide down towards nescience, the all merciful Lord first of all tries to protect him from the trap, but when the living entity persists in gliding down to hell, the Lord helps him to forget his real position …the Lord naturally does not like to see anyone falling down from his real position".
"His real position" means prema-bhakti, not the brahmajyoti and ocean of causes. One falls from loving service to Krishna.
“Our position is manah shashthanindriyani prakriti-sthani karshati [Bg. 15.7]. Detached from Krishna, we are in this prakriti, material nature, and our business is struggle for existence for the same pleasure, which is never obtainable in this material world. Therefore the intelligence is that we should again go back to home, go back to Krishna, and dance with Him in His rasa
dance.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.26.19, Bombay, December 28, 1974)
- "Krishna has full power over His energies – not over the tatastha." It is S. dasa’s axiom that Krishna has full power only over every nitya siddha. Why He does not exert full power over every jiva so no one has to fall down, and suffer. According to S. dasa only some living beings are generated perfectly either as nitya-siddha-jiva-sakti, svarupa-sakti or Visnu tattva with fully developed siddha deha and free will.
God should have created all the jivas like that. There would be no need of a Viraja region nor of a material world. Everyone eternally happy! Why the jivas in the spiritual world, with free will, are exempt from going through a Viraja-mahat-tattva trial. They also need "a perfect spiritual environment of neutrality to choose," as S. dasa puts it, or are they forced to love?
[PADA: Right there is a major flaw in the idea that we DID NOT FALL from Krishna's association, it means He placed some people WITH HIM and some NOT WITH HIM, which is un-equal and unjust.]
- "Out of curiosity 25% of the souls in the ocean of causes lean towards maya, 75% go to the spiritual world".
He comes to this because he thinks ¾th of the souls had to come to the spiritual world and ¼th to the maya world. This is the quantitative wrong idea of ekapada - tripada vibhuti. The actual meaning of this is that the Lord has 4 vibutis or excellences: the spiritual energy of the spiritual world – the
svarupa-sakti, the Brahmajyoti, the marginal energy and the material world.
tripad-vibhuter dhamatvat tripadbhutam tu tat padam vibhutir mayiki sarva prokta padatmikayatah.
Vaikuntha is called tripad-bhutam because it is the abode which possess three portions of power. All the powers of the material realm are called only one portion.
Commentary: When Vaikuntha is described as tripad-bhutam it means that the material powers of the material realm consisting of one pad or segment, do not exist in Vaikuntha.
(Laghu Bhagavatamrta 5.286)
- "Fall means the Lord lacks control over His world".
In Ramaraja, Ravana and other demons are expelled or destroyed. Why force a Ravana into a holy kingdom. That would cause fear in a paradise. - "In suddha sattva viraja inconceivably the pure soul gets its false ego".
However, there is no false ego in the Viraja ocean, false ego is only a later development. The Viraja ocean expands the pradhana; pradhana expands the mahat-tattva; and mahat-tattva expands false ego.
- "We can't argue why false ego arises from pure consciousness." This statement simply means that at any moment maya can further captivate or entangle someone who is in the maya world. See the context of this statement (SB 3.26.23); there is no discussion of the causal ocean there.
Another point is that when the souls are coming out of Maha-Visnu, there is no maya world yet to glance at to become attracted to and lean towards. This is S. dasa’s own theory.
This glancing to maya and Krishna (described in the Jaiva-dharma chapter 7, 15, 16) is when the soul comes down from the spiritual planets and gets a second choice at the border with the maya world. The first choice is on the spiritual planets; the second choice is with the warning of protection.
Alternatively, this glancing describes the ontological nature of the marginal energy; he is free to go to Krishna or to the material world.