U Dasa: In the second chapter of his book, Brahmana and Vaisnava, entitled "Harijana-khanda", Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:
"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.
V Dasa: U Dasa is a Gaudiya Matha speculator trying to jump over Srila Prabhupada and use (unknown editions of) Srila Bhakisiddhanta Sarasvati's words to refute Srila Prabhupada's conclusions.
PADA: How do we know U Dasa's item was not edited? Anyway, this is going around in big circle. In the article above U Dasa cites that we are originally in santa rasa, which is the rasa of the residents of the Vaikuntha planets, the cows etc. He says we were not in the Vaikuntha planets, then he says, we all originally had the rasa of the residents of the Vaikuntha planets? Anytime you guys want to start making sense, lets us know.
Srila Prabhupada also says that Krishna's cows and shoes etc. are santa rasa, how can they be Krishna's shoes, and not be with Krishna? Anyway, here Srila Prabhupada says the Vaikuntha planets are santa rasa, which is still considered as one of the levels of PURE devotional service (which is why Jesus said the blades of grass in My Father's kingdom are higher than any of you) --
"Goloka Vrindavana is the highest planet in the spiritual world. In order to go to the spiritual world after penetrating the covering of the material universe, one must penetrate Brahma-loka, the spiritual effulgence. Then one can come to the Goloka Vrindavana planet. There are also other planets in the spiritual world, called Vaikuntha planets, and on these planets Lord Narayana is worshiped with awe and veneration.
On these planets santa-rasa is prevalent, and some of the devotees are also connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in dasya-rasa, the mellow of servitorship. As far as the mellow of fraternity is concerned, in Vaikuntha this rasa is represented by gaurava-sakhya, friendship in awe and veneration. The other fraternity rasa, exhibited as visrambha (friendship in equality), is found in the Goloka Vrindavana planet. Above that is service to the Lord in vatsalya-rasa (parental love), and above all is the relationship with the Lord in the madhurya-rasa (conjugal love). These five rasas are fully exhibited in the spiritual world in one's relationship with the Lord. Therefore in the spiritual world the bhakti creeper finds its resting place at the lotus feet of Krishna.
<<< >>> Vedabase
CP Dasa: HIS ETERNAL LOVE FOR KRSNA IS TRANSFORMED INTO LUST,BG 3.37.
PADA: Very nice analysis. Right, well Srila Prabhupada often says that the key to diminishing and nullifying our material lust is to meditate on Radha Krishna. In other words, material lust is the material counterpart of the original adi-rasa of Krishna. Lust is rather powerful here because it is a perverted misdirection of our original attraction to Krishna.
Thus, this lust is found in every living being in the material world, which is why even the ugliest fish are attracted to one another. Srila Prabhupada's idea is that we fall into lust and illusion by MISUSE of our own independence, in other words we DESIRE to re-direct our love for Krishna. The Gaudiya Matha people keep arguing that maya does not exist in the spiritual world, therefore no one can fall from there, but if a person there DESIRES to enjoy separate from Krishna, that is not an external force, its an internal desire.
In other words, we created our own illusion that we could be separate from Krishna from within ourselves. That means we can only cure that by correcting that misdirected desire from within ourselves. Unless we know the source of our self-manifesting illusion, it will be very hard to cure, just like its very hard to curb a disease epidemic if no one knows what caused it. Of course Krishna will also help us if we are sincere in fixing our misdirected desires ... but we have to be very determined, then Krishna will gladly assist. Misuse of independence is the cause of our fall down, and that means we must have been inside the original rasa experience in order to be removed from there and to have it transformed. Good! ys pd
CP Dasa: The existence of lust,yogurt, (resulting substance, the result of the transformation) is proof of the existence of love for God,milk (original starting substance, object of the transformation).
U Dasa: Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga! Your faith in Srila Prabhupada is intense, and although we don't agree on this topic I really appreciate your friendship and time, it has been a valuable experience. Again I offer my obeisances at your feet. Hare Kṛṣṇa!
TP Dasa: It's not a question of blind faith in Srila Prabhupada. It's more a question of what makes sense and what may be the overall conclusion of the sastra and Achayas. "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada was the foremost sidereal astrologer in modern (20th Century) times, as well as the foremost scholar of the Vaishnava teachings. He was so scholarly in fact, that some parts of his English writings are practically incomprehensible.
His Bengali tract on Surya-siddhanta is likewise a tour-de-force in esoteric astronomical science. He was preaching to a scholastic crowd in much of his writings. These kinds of people, when they study Vedic or Vaishnava teachings, are invariably attached to the Mayavada interpretation of the Vedas. After his father Bhaktivinode put a big dent in the prominent sahajiyaism of that time, mayavada pollution started to seep into the Vaishnava teachings. The modern age was on the ascendant during the era of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and sophisticated mayavada (mixed with so-called bhakti) was coming into vogue."
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta needed to blunt and, wherever possible, convert that influence. As such, his prolific writings do not contain an over-abundance of references to the personal fall of the jiva, as this epistemology was interpreted (by the sophisticated set) to be retro, a fallback to the dangerous sentimentality of a religion they both despised and rejected.
If the scholarly understanding of Vaishnavism ultimately led to the conclusion that there was not much difference between it and Christianity, they would reject it out of hand. Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta had to maintain his connection to Western scholasticism, and, at the same time, not compromise our teachings. It was a daunting task, and, befitting a God-realized acharya, he carried it out perfectly."
So, in our research, we have not found a plethora of references by Bhaktisiddhanta Srila Prabhupada to the personal origination of the jiva. In other words, we didn't find as many as we did from his illustrious father, Bhaktivinode Thakur. But find some we did, and, although a few of these may be considered cryptic, others are quite direct:
"Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krsna. When he forgets his service of Krsna, he is at once deflected by the attracting power of maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool . . ." - Brahma-samhita, purport to Text 44. No service to forget in brahmajyoti. No service to forget in susupti, either.
"It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . ."- Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.
"This stage is known as regaining the true function after the expiry of his term of imprisonment as an enjoyer". - Explorations in Vedantic Truth
"We can go back to the higher rasa if we are anxious to be eternal rasikas". - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 116
"The state of brahman (floating in the brahmajyoti) or the state of susupti (lying dormant like under anesthesia in the body of Maha Visnu) are never considered states of higher rasa. Something else is being referred to, something else that entails a personal relationship (rasa) with God.
"Liberation is nothing but going back to the original position, that is, offering our services to the Eternal Being". - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 116
"The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original positon".- Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 101.
CP Dasa: But when AGAIN the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . .
he begins to GET BACK his pure essential nature . . ." - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.
GET BACK = REGAIN = To RECOVER possession of (SOMETHING LOST or taken away);
MEANING OF "AGAIN":
-BACK TO THE ORIGINAL PLACE OR CONDITION: We went to Edinburgh and back again all in one day. Get some rest and you'll soon be well again. -To a PREVIOUS place, position, or state: left home but went back again. -once more in a PREVIOUSLY EXPERIENCED or encountered place, state, or condition: he is ill again; he came back again.
PADA: Anyway, I personally think that understanding that material attachment and lust are "perverted reflections" of our original love for Krishna, thus its like soured milk, is a key factor in removing this material lust, and that is why it was an important feature of Srila Prabhupada's presentation. He wanted us to be free of material lust, which he said, are the bars of Maya's prison.
Its a clarification of what is the driving principle of our conditioned life in the material world. He also said, unless we can resolve this attachment, we have to stay here. So I am in favor of using all the tools in the toolbox to free us of conditioned life. At the same time, I would say that the main reason many folks from the Gaudiya Matha (despite chanting 64 rounds etc.) and many senior people from ISKCON fell down, sometimes in spectacular tailspins, is that they did not understand the psychological principle underlying our material attachment, i.e. that the reason our material attachment is so powerful is, its a transformation of our original attachment to Krishna.
I think unless one fully understands this point it will be much more difficult to get free of this mundane bondage. In short, even many big stalwart vaishnavas fell victim to addiction to mundane attachments, because they did not recognize that our original status is to be addicted to Krishna, they did not understand the original psychology of addicted attraction, and how to channel this attachment in the proper manner, Therefore, to understand that the soul was originally addicted to Krishna will help us break our addiction to the material sphere. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. ys pd
N TP Dasa: http://prabhupadabooks.com/d.php?qg=6572 neutral / santa-rasa
"In the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Lord Kṛṣṇa personally instructs Uddhava like this: "The state of being established in My personal form is called śānta-rasa, and without being situated in this position, no one can advance to actual pure devotional service." In other words, no one can be situated in the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without being situated at least in santa-rasa."
NoD Neutral Love of God Chapter Thirty-five. Neutral Love of God.
CP Dasa: "LIBERATION is nothing but GOING BACKTO THE ORIGINAL POSITION ,
that is, OFFERING OUR SERVICES TO THE ETERNAL BEING”.
(Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 116)
GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POSITION means three things :
1.There is a original position(in the past),something real.
2.That original position,condition, is lost.Something real.
3.Now ,someone or something is GOING BACKTO THE ORIGINAL POSITION.
Now, what is our original position we were on our past?
Now, what was our REAL original position we were on our past?
-Liberated means to be reinstated in one´s original spiritual status.
-Then our original spiritual status is to be liberated.
-WHEN THE CONDITIONED SOUL BECOMES LIBERATED from the clutches of material energy, HE ATTAINS HIS ORIGINAL FORM.”
attained their original spiritual form like the Lord
attains his original form-the original nature of the soul.
the svarūpa of the living being-attained their svarūpa,
-all of them attained the same result.
attains his svarūpa,
yam iha nirīkṣya hatā gatāḥ sva-rūpam
yam—upon whom; iha—in this world; nirīkṣya—by looking; hatāḥ—those who died; gatāḥ—attained; sva-rūpam—ORIGINAL FORM.
Those who saw Him on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra ATTAINED THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS AFTER DEATH.
All the soldiers and persons on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra ATTAINED THEIR ORIGINAL SPIRITUAL FORM LIKE THE LORD after their death because by the causeless mercy of the Lord they were able to see Him face to face on that occasion. THE MATERIAL FORMS OF THE CONDITIONED SOULS ARE ALL FOREIGN DRESSES, and -WHEN THE CONDITIONED SOUL BECOMES LIBERATED from the clutches of material energy, HE ATTAINS HIS ORIGINAL FORM.
-A SPIRITUAL FORM LIKE THE LORD´S, either two-handed or four-handed, is attained by the devotees of the Lord either in the Vaikuṇṭhas or in the Goloka planet, ACCORDING TO THE ORIGINAL NATURE OF THE SOUL.
-THIS FORM, which is cent percent spiritual, IS THE SVARUPA OF THE LIVING BEING,and
all the living beings who participated on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, on both sides,
ATTAINED THEIR SVARUPA,as confirmed by Bhīṣmadeva.
-The conclusion is that whoever dies looking on the Personality of Godhead WITHIN OR WITHOUT attains his svarūpa, which is the highest perfection of life.
PADA: This description of santa rasa provided by U Dasa is not accurate. The residents of Vaikuntha are santa rasa (we provided the quote for that above). In addition: “The cows in Krsna’s abode are also liberated souls. They are called surabhi cows. There are many popular pictures showing how Krsna loves the cows, how He embraces and kisses them. That passive relationship with Krsna is called santa. Their perfect happiness is achieved when Krsna comes and simply touches them.”
Science of Self-Realization, Chapter 8 The souls in santa rasa may also be in the role of the shoes and sitting place of Krishna, or may have a more active engagement in devotional service like the cows and residents of Vaikuntha. To say that these souls are "not engaged in service" -- is simply -- not accurate. As far as other relationships also becoming envious and falling, that seems to the the case since no particular level of service would stop a jeeva from having individual independence. ys pd